Moparts
VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT**PICTURE UPDATE**
Posted By: anlauto
VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT**PICTURE UPDATE** - 06/09/09 11:48 PM
Ok....
Is it true that the stamping of the VIN on the transmission and engine block should match exactly?
What I mean is that if one or more digets is out of place (ex: higher or crooked) will it be the same on both the engine and tranny?
Posted By: 70dart360
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/09/09 11:52 PM
Doing another re-body huh?
Posted By: BulletBob
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/09/09 11:54 PM
Numbers matching is numbers matching. I have yet to see any numbers out of place or crooked that were correct.
Posted By: YYZ
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/09/09 11:54 PM
In theory, yes.
In real life, no.
Posted By: Hugh Jorgan
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/09/09 11:56 PM
Posted By: sharpie
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 12:02 AM
From reading the post on how Superbirds were made at Lynch, it sounds like it was hand-stamped into both somewhere on the moving line. Thus, to me, it sounds like that if one has a digit crooked, I'd think the 'operator' of the punch couldn't replicate the height/angle of the digit if he/she wanted to.
Posted By: anlauto
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 12:12 AM
This is my original transmission which has never left the car since it was new.
(click on attachment to make it larger)
.JPG "5282724-Oct112007(2).JPG")
Quote:
This is my original transmission which has never left the car since it was new.
You painted and detailed it like that in the car? 
Posted By: anlauto
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 12:18 AM
Is this the matching block? It was removed from the car while under warranty?
Posted By: anlauto
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 12:20 AM
Quote:
Quote:
This is my original transmission which has never left the car since it was new.
You painted and detailed it like that in the car?
Yes...I find the restorations go quicker that way...smarta$$
What's your opinion on this...I actually value it.... 
i seen a few 4 spds stamped,and then restamped, the same number,but kinda over the original one. like i said before,they didnt make these cars for us to restore 40 yrs later,so there is human error.
Posted By: 472 R/T SE
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 12:28 AM
Quote:
Is this the matching block? It was removed from the car while under warranty?
The font & spacing looks off to me for factory.
My buddy said Govier told him the dealerships' were suppose to stamp the VIN on the warranty motors.
Posted By: flypaper
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 12:55 AM
you better dig deep
and not miss out on this wonderful opportunity
just think now you can ask 500k for it
You call me a Smart **s and then expect an answer?
..................That block is a restamp
Posted By: sixty7gtx
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 12:57 AM
Quote:
Is this the matching block? It was removed from the car while under warranty?
I know of a 71 car and the vin # looks different, seems closer and the top # are deeper then going to the bottom of the # it gets shallow.
I think scott smitt is right!
Posted By: Furyman
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 01:02 AM
i've looked at lots of pads...#'s can be all over the place.But...that engine pad does not look right to me...the fonts look off.
Posted By: HPMike
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 01:04 AM
Quote:
..................That block is a restamp
And a very poor attempt at that...
MB
Posted By: DAYCLONA
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 01:09 AM
Quote:
Quote:
..................That block is a restamp
And a very poor attempt at that...
MB
Shody restamp!......I can do better than that after a few 
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 01:12 AM
Quote:
It was removed from the car while under warranty?
is that the STORY you were told by someone trying to FLEECE you ?
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 06/10/09 01:16 AM
Posted By: anlauto
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 01:22 AM
Quote:
Quote:
It was removed from the car while under warranty?
is that the STORY you were told by someone trying to FLEECE you ?
NO...fortunatly enough the original owner is still alive. I called him tonight to ask, again, what happened to the original motor....To the best of his memory, the block had a loud knock, and he seems to recall damage to the oil pan. Remember, he was in his early 20's and not really a mechanically inclined, just a young guy with a cool car he bought new.
He took it back to the dealer and had it replaced. It wasn't much long after that, that he sold the car keeping it only one year.
Quote:
dealerships' were suppose to stamp the VIN on the warranty motors.
I've never seen a shred of evidence to support that story. If anyone has any I'd love to see it (Factory Bullitins, Memo's etc.). It's possible that some dealership owners had internally unique procedures to track engine warranty work but nothing from the factory I've ever seen proof of.
IF it were ever to happen they would have stamped a new block (Warranty/Service replacement, etc.) not re-stamped an old block that already had a number (that block pic you posted appears to have other numbers under the new ones?).
So, first you'd need to establish if the block is a W/S replacement, then have the paperwork supporting that it was actually replaced under warranty at the dealer back in the day, and even then it's still not the original #'s block.
Posted By: 472 R/T SE
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 01:23 AM
Quote:
Quote:
dealerships' were suppose to stamp the VIN on the warranty motors.
yes it was true where I worked but no many ever bothered
Thanks Fred, you're the first person to ever comment on that claim.
So did the dealerships' use the same style font punch as the factory? So to be correct, it would have the tags' on the sides of the motor and stamped up by the distributor on that pad W/S or whatever it is?
Posted By: DAYCLONA
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 01:25 AM
Quote:
i seen a few 4 spds stamped,and then restamped, the same number,but kinda over the original one.
....Yep I done that before,....I mean, seen that before 
Posted By: anlauto
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 01:45 AM
Just to clarify....
This is supposed to be the engine that blew up and was taken out(damage to the lower skirt of #4 cylinder)
....therefore having the numbers stamped at the factory....
It was removed from the car and replaced under warranty back in 1971 and somehow ended up in Ohio some 38 years later.
What did the dealers do with the dicarded engine blocks back then?
Those numbers were not stamped at the factory regardless of the history/story.
Posted By: ConvertiBee
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:01 AM
I'm certainly no expert, but I've seen more than a few VIN pads over the years. If I were looking at a car to buy, and I saw the pad stamped that way, I would immediately think "fake", and base my buying decision on it being a non-numbers matching car.
...and (I believe), a 1971 block would have the FULL vin on it.
Posted By: stumpy
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:12 AM
When I worked in the dealership back in the 70s the factory warrenty rep would smack the block with a hammer to damage it so it couldn't be reused and then it got scrapped. They were never reused.
Quote:
...and (I believe), a 1971 block would have the FULL vin on it.
No, the 71 would have the partial VIN like this example
Posted By: burdar
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:19 AM
Was the engine and trans stamped one right after the other with the same tool?
I have the origonal drivetrain to my dad's Challenger(he is the origonal owner) The trans has one number that is stamped wrong. I havn't looked at the engine to see if it has the same "wrong" letter.
Quote:
Was the engine and trans stamped one right after the other with the same tool?
Yes
Posted By: burdar
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:24 AM
Then the block should have the same "wrong" stamping. I'll have to check that out.
Posted By: 69CoronetRT
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:29 AM
Quote:
i've looked at lots of pads...#'s can be all over the place.But...that engine pad does not look right to me...the fonts look off.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:57 AM
also notice the PAD is twice as deep as most you see... indicating its been shaved..also the font is way way off as the spacing off the trans stamp would be the same so yes this is a FRAUD dan
Posted By: 69_SIX_PACK
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 03:14 AM
Seems like someone went fishing for a sucker:
He must have figured you for someone with lots of $$$.
Too bad it didn't work out.
You should ask him how long the wait would be for a spare matching number tranny would be
Dave
Posted By: Rocko
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 03:18 AM
The look on that fish's face just made my day.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 03:18 AM
Quote:
Just to clarify....
This is supposed to be the engine that blew up and was taken out(damage to the lower skirt of #4 cylinder)
....therefore having the numbers stamped at the factory....
It was removed from the car and replaced under warranty back in 1971 and somehow ended up in Ohio some 38 years later.
What did the dealers do with the dicarded engine blocks back then?
discarded them into the scrap pile .
I wish I had a picture of the 70 hemi cuda rebody remains from a dealer in Mass. back in the early 80's , the original body sitting on top of their scrap pile out back .
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 03:24 AM
Quote:
Just to clarify....
This is supposed to be the engine that blew up and was taken out(damage to the lower skirt of #4 cylinder)
....therefore having the numbers stamped at the factory....
It was removed from the car and replaced under warranty back in 1971 and somehow ended up in Ohio some 38 years later.
What did the dealers do with the dicarded engine blocks back then?
Well Alan, if this one doesn't pan out and since the warranty repacement 440 motor wasn't with the car either when you got it, watch for someone now doing a better job of restamping and contacting you claiming they have the warranty replacement motor....now where'd I put my stamps. 
Posted By: MrNormsTA
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 03:34 AM
I wouldn't sweat it, but you might want to change your ad back to non-matching motor now.
This is one of the prime reasons I personally don't care much about the whole numbers matching gig and never did.
Posted By: west
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 03:39 AM
well at least they can use this thread to correct thier mistakes for the next attempt.
Posted By: DAYCLONA
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 03:44 AM
Quote:
well at least they can use this thread to correct thier mistakes for the next attempt.
You know the ol' Motto,.....practice makes perfect!......or a Premimum Stamp set,...is preferred
Posted By: MN-ScatPack
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 03:54 AM
Quote:
Quote:
well at least they can use this thread to correct thier mistakes for the next attempt.
You know the ol' Motto,.....practice makes perfect!......or a Premimum Stamp set,...is preferred
MAN, OK, OK, you have a nice PREMIUM stamp set. We GET IT!
Sheez.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 05:41 AM
Quote:
Is this the matching block? It was removed from the car while under warranty?
The fonts are wrong as compared to those used by the factory. The lettering is also slanted to the right about 15 degrees. With the type of stamping jig used on the assembly line, that would have been impossible.
Posted By: 69superbee383
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 05:55 AM
I worked at a Plymouth dealer during HS in 77 to early 79 and I remember getting long blocks in with a riveted tag on them to ID them as warranty replacements. I do know they had a stamp set and they would stamp the pad with the VIN number. I also saw them stamp the month and year on the top pad to denote the install date. Was this required..I dont know I just know the tech we had did it. The engines I remember working with were all police Furys so maybe it was something the city wanted done. I never recall getting just a block in they were always long blocks and the claim engine would be shipped back if requested or just sent to the dump if it wasnt. Since these engines were a dime a dozen then no one messed with them.
Posted By: anlauto
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 11:59 AM
So should they be a closer match?
Why would someone bother to go through the trouble? It's not like I was overly advertising looking for the original block
....I sent this question to a good friend and his answer made the most sense.
He says it depends on the asking price....
If it's $500 it's NO SCAM
if it's $5000 it's a SCAM
I got an email last night....the asking price for the bare block is $2500
Posted By: Gusteve
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 12:18 PM
Quote:
The lettering is also slanted to the right about 15 degrees. With the type of stamping jig used on the assembly line, that would have been impossible.
That's what I was thinking. You could have a vertically mis-aligned digit, but not the entire VIN slanted like that if they were using a jig of some kind. And the fact that the pad is deeper than usual supports the argument that it was shaved.
Not to mention, it would be safe to assume that there would be a boatload of cars around with VIN #'s with the same slant as the VIN on that block, and I don't recall ever seeing one like that. Its highly unlikely that the line worker stamped that single VIN and went "Oh - its crooked, I better fix the jig" before he did the next car.
Posted By: RoadRunner
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT**PICTURE UPDATE** - 06/10/09 12:30 PM
Here is my take on it...its a restamp. Why, whell, the stamping of the blocks and engines were done by a machine that had wheels where you set the number/letter combination. So you would set 0B12345 and stamp the engine and transmission. Then set to 0B12346 and do the next (assuming sequential VIN for this argument sake). So if the person setting the wheels dropped the third digit slightly (say the "1" was a little lower, then the same error would be in both places. Also, since the wheels were in a line, all the letters should be lined up. Thes are all over the place. I have seen the whole stampings crooked, but the relative spacing and alignment is always the same. This is also why you see transposed numbers show up in both places usually. Lastly, the font is off. I am no expert, but have seen a few VIN stampings, and know that that font is not right. Just my
Posted By: MLR426
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 12:39 PM
Quote:
Quote:
i seen a few 4 spds stamped,and then restamped, the same number,but kinda over the original one.
....Yep I done that before,....I mean, seen that before
Yes Mike after a few beers you have a steadier hand to hold the stamp still while striking it.
logan426
Posted By: Snoopy
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:11 PM
Quote:
dealerships' were suppose to stamp the VIN on the warranty motors.
Quote:
I've never seen a shred of evidence to support that story. If anyone has any I'd love to see it (Factory Bulletins, Memo's etc.). It's possible that some dealership owners had internally unique procedures to track engine warranty work but nothing from the factory I've ever seen proof of.
This is printed in the front of every factory parts book.
IMPORTANT:
Parts Division replacement engines are supplied with blank engine number bosses only. Dealers are governed by state law on the application of engine numbers. In states where license fees are based on displacement or taxable horsepower, it will be necessary to change vehicle registration if the new replacement engine differs from the one it replaces.
Posted By: 70440+6bbl
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:17 PM
Quote:
i seen a few 4 spds stamped,and then restamped, the same number,but kinda over the original one. like i said before,they didnt make these cars for us to restore 40 yrs later,so there is human error.
I have seen many 4-spds that have been double stamped by the factory, here is the #'s trans to my '71 GTX.
Right Snoopy, I've seen that, but it's as clear as mud as to exactly what it means. Where does it say (specifically)that dealers are required to add the VIN sequence number to the block?
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:26 PM
I agree "restamped", now you can out the yo-yo trying to pass this off as legit. The pad will be a little bit deeper with another VIN next time it surfaces,
maybe it'll match my car.
NOT!!
Posted By: HPMike
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:26 PM
Quote:
Quote:
dealerships' were suppose to stamp the VIN on the warranty motors.
Quote:
I've never seen a shred of evidence to support that story. If anyone has any I'd love to see it (Factory Bulletins, Memo's etc.). It's possible that some dealership owners had internally unique procedures to track engine warranty work but nothing from the factory I've ever seen proof of.
This is printed in the front of every factory parts book.
IMPORTANT:
Parts Division replacement engines are supplied with blank engine number bosses only. Dealers are governed by state law on the application of engine numbers. In states where license fees are based on displacement or taxable horsepower, it will be necessary to change vehicle registration if the new replacement engine differs from the one it replaces.
That edict is like the label on your pillow.
MB
Posted By: HPMike
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:37 PM
Quote:
Quote:
i seen a few 4 spds stamped,and then restamped, the same number,but kinda over the original one. like i said before,they didnt make these cars for us to restore 40 yrs later,so there is human error.
I have seen many 4-spds that have been double stamped by the factory, here is the #'s trans to my '71 GTX.
That's quite common, actually. Another that I see is transposed numerals. The VIN is, let's say, 123456 and you see 132456.
MB
Posted By: 70440+6bbl
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:42 PM
Quote:
Numbers matching is numbers matching. I have yet to see any numbers out of place or crooked that were correct.
Mike, I agree, quite common... It was more of a response to the quote above
The fender tags were also placed backwards 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:46 PM
Quote:
I got an email last night....the asking price for the bare block is $2500
I think you have your answer then, don't you? 
The rationale of the guy selling is that a few "correct" numbers make a $250.00 block worth 10 times that.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 02:50 PM
Quote:
So should they be a closer match?
Why would someone bother to go through the trouble? It's not like I was overly advertising looking for the original block
....I sent this question to a good friend and his answer made the most sense.
He says it depends on the asking price....
If it's $500 it's NO SCAM
if it's $5000 it's a SCAM
I got an email last night....the asking price for the bare block is $2500
SCAM , I got the ORIGINAL UNDAMAGED block to my bee back from the guy that pulled it ... 25 bucks
Posted By: 6PakBee
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 03:20 PM
Quote:
When I worked in the dealership back in the 70s the factory warrenty rep would smack the block with a hammer to damage it so it couldn't be reused and then it got scrapped. They were never reused.
That's what was supposed to happen.
Posted By: Fury Fan
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 03:20 PM
Quote:
well at least they can use this thread to correct thier mistakes for the next attempt.
So where are teh 'fender tag police' to keep this information from being posted on a public webboards???
Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:04 PM
Quote:
also notice the PAD is twice as deep as most you see... indicating its been shaved..also the font is way way off as the spacing off the trans stamp would be the same so yes this is a FRAUD dan
And there are no remnants of the original Bridgeport milling machine marks with which all pads were milled whether they were stamped at the factory or unstamped warranty replacements.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:19 PM
Quote:
Quote:
well at least they can use this thread to correct thier mistakes for the next attempt.
So where are teh 'fender tag police' to keep this information from being posted on a public webboards???
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:31 PM
Quote:
Quote:
also notice the PAD is twice as deep as most you see... indicating its been shaved..also the font is way way off as the spacing off the trans stamp would be the same so yes this is a FRAUD dan
And there are no remnants of the original Bridgeport milling machine marks with which all pads were milled whether they were stamped at the factory or unstamped warranty replacements.
I totally agree with you Bill; the Bridgeport milling is there no matter what and the alignment of the characters or numbers doesn't matter. This is a '71 C-body 440 engine I have (complete) that I know was stamped at the factory (no one in their right mind would re-stamp it as a non-HP 440 ) and if you look closely you can still see the Bridgeport milling marks . So the factory stamped it OuTofFAliGNmEnt and doubledouble stampp the 2 2 
MikeR
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:31 PM
I have seen enough 71 Hemi's with "hand Stamped" appearing numbers on sitting for 30+ years original owner cars. Never seen that on a 440 though. Hemi's seemed to be the exception in 1971 - with the low, low production. There are also a few original 71 Hemi Engine/trans with No stamping documented as well.
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:35 PM
Quote:
I have seen enough 71 Hemi's with "hand Stamped" appearing numbers on sitting for 30+ years original owner cars. Never seen that on a 440 though. Hemi's seemed to be the exception in 1971 - with the low, low production. There are also a few original 71 Hemi Engine/trans with No stamping documented as well.
what a co-inkydink that I posted a '71 440 block
MikeR
One of my all time favorites. Notice the blank pad (Factory installed in a numbers matching Hemi car BTW). Also look carefully at the cast iron area above the pad.....
A12 your example does not appear hand stamped to me, it looks more like the worker just neglected to roll the first two digits into the proper final position which made them slightly higher than the rest.
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:42 PM
and here's an "over the counter" '69 440 HP (2) engine, unstamped with the Bridgeport milling marks and it appears they missed the front edge of the pad during that milling.....the engine assembly date/code pad is stamped E440 3 28 HP 2 with a upside down "C" and a sideways "B"
MikeR
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:44 PM
Quote:
One of my all time favorites. Notice the blank pad (Factory installed in a numbers matching Hemi car BTW). Also look carefully at the cast iron area above the pad.....
They stamped the numbers into the rough cast iron area above the milled pad 
MikeR
Posted By: flypaper
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:45 PM
Quote:
So should they be a closer match?
Why would someone bother to go through the trouble? It's not like I was overly advertising looking for the original block
....I sent this question to a good friend and his answer made the most sense.
He says it depends on the asking price....
If it's $500 it's NO SCAM
if it's $5000 it's a SCAM
I got an email last night....the asking price for the bare block is $2500
from this post it sounds like you still want to believe
its real
what does the price to do with it being real or not?
that number was put there to reel you in
its one of the pitfalls of blabbing your vin number/date codes all over the net
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:50 PM
Quote:
A12 your example does not appear hand stamped to me, it looks more like the worker just neglected to roll the first two digits into the proper final position which made them slightly higher than the rest.
Scott, I agree and really never said that it was hand stamped just pointing out the mis-alignment of the characters. You can see at the lower left corner of the "1" where it has the mark from the stamp base corner, kind of like a L shape where it was rolled too far to the right.
MikeR
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:52 PM
Quote:
One of my all time favorites. Notice the blank pad (Factory installed in a numbers matching Hemi car BTW). Also look carefully at the cast iron area above the pad.....
Roger Gibson showed me one that was whacked a few times all the way up the block - Employee pride! Is that the same engine?
Posted By: cataclysm80
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:55 PM
I've heard stories of a worker (st. louis plant I think) that didn't know he had to change the #s on his first day and stamped everything with the same # for an hour!
How many cars would that be?
Tav
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 04:56 PM
And as asked in an earlier post. I have found, through rubbings, that if an engine had misaligned, tilting, faint and/or funky characters, the trans was pretty much a match-up with the rubbings.
Quote:
They stamped the numbers into the rough cast iron area above the milled pad
Yep.........Doh! Bad Factory worker!
Posted By: Hemi_Jack
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 05:26 PM
Quote:
and here's an "over the counter" '69 440 HP (2) engine, unstamped with the Bridgeport milling marks and it appears they missed the front edge of the pad during that milling.....the engine assembly date/code pad is stamped E440 3 28 HP 2 with a upside down "C" and a sideways "B"
MikeR
Is it just me or do I see numbers stamped in the cast iron above the pad on this block also?
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 05:45 PM
Quote:
Quote:
and here's an "over the counter" '69 440 HP (2) engine, unstamped with the Bridgeport milling marks and it appears they missed the front edge of the pad during that milling.....the engine assembly date/code pad is stamped E440 3 28 HP 2 with a upside down "C" and a sideways "B"
MikeR
Is it just me or do I see numbers stamped in the cast iron above the pad on this block also?
Jack, that's my block and I've never seen anything that looked like a stamping there but maybe I didn't look closely enough??? I'll look again when I get a chance. This engine was supposedly in an Excalibur kit car like this one (not the car or engine) back in '69 and purchased over the counter from a Chrysler dealer's parts department. It was a complete engine and was stamped with an assembly date and type of engine E440 HP. A very strange tag is nail riveted to the bellhousing area with HP 440 on it. I can't get to the engine right now but now I have to go look at that area again more closely. Anyway the milling marks were all that I was trying to point out that should be there stamper or not stamped.
MikeR
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 05:51 PM
I found another photo of my engine and it doesn't appear to have anything stamped above the pad in the rough cast area.......
Posted By: 70440+6bbl
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 05:58 PM
How about this one- it is the 18 spline trans out of my '70 V-code 'Cuda and it has no VIN stamping. I have ownership history going back to the mid-'70's and so far, nobody remembers the tranny ever being changed out for another. The trans build date is Nov 5th '69., which also happens to be my cars SPD (B05).
and under the black paint is the 677 stamping.
Posted By: Snoopy
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 06:09 PM
Quote:
Right Snoopy, I've seen that, but it's as clear as mud as to exactly what it means. Where does it say (specifically)that dealers are required to add the VIN sequence number to the block?
Chrysler didn't dictate the stampings on the replacement block. The individual States did. I know for a fact the in 1970 California required the replacement engine cases on motorcycles to be stamped with the original VIN numbers. I had a 1970 Honda CB750 that threw the drive chain thought the case and the dealer was required by CA state law to stamp the new case. I have heard of other states that required it on automotive engine blocks because it was listed on the registration.
Different states, different requirements.
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 06:10 PM
over the counter short or longblocks wouldnt have the model year letter before the engine size
E440
the E would have an "S" for service
as far as what i understand,
the vin stamp wasnt done by hand, as far as hitting it with a hammer
it was a pneumatic number stamp gun (sort of looks like an old supermarket metal price gun, where you had to "roll" the numbers to get the price you wnated)
so thats why numbers will always be spaced left to right the same, and on a the same line, even if slanted, theyll al be on the same incline or decline, but the numbers can sometimes be jumbled for up and down if they werent all locked in the same notch
and yes i agree with a previous poster, that it is very commomn to have the exact same stamp irregularities on the engine and trans
the only exception to this rule i have seen, if an engine blows on the assy line, + the engine is replaced prior to leaving the plant, that it got stamped with the body number type font, not the engine / trans stamp font
i asked galen about that and he confirmed that he has seen the same thing
my
Quote:
How about this one- it is the 18 spline trans out of my '70 V-code 'Cuda and it has no VIN stamping. I have ownership history going back to the mid-'70's and so far, nobody remembers the tranny ever being changed out for another. The trans build date is Nov 5th '69., which also happens to be my cars SPD (B05).
The problem you have is that regardless of how far back it goes the ownership history is incomplete, as are the memories of past owners you do know. At this point I'd tend to go with "replacement" but it's POSSIBLE that it is the original and was never stamped, just not very likely, and without proof few will believe it when it comes selling time.
Posted By: 70440+6bbl
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 06:23 PM
Quote:
Quote:
How about this one- it is the 18 spline trans out of my '70 V-code 'Cuda and it has no VIN stamping. I have ownership history going back to the mid-'70's and so far, nobody remembers the tranny ever being changed out for another. The trans build date is Nov 5th '69., which also happens to be my cars SPD (B05).
The problem you have is that regardless of how far back it goes the ownership history is incomplete, as are the memories of past owners you do know. At this point I'd tend to go with "replacement" but it's POSSIBLE that it is the original and was never stamped, just not very likely, and without proof few will believe it when it comes selling time.
Understood, I just thought it was quite a coincedence considering the dates. Not too worried about the selling price if/when the time comes.
Posted By: LimeliteAero
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 06:58 PM
regarding the issue of trans vs engine with the numbers not be in the same alignment.
Isnt it possible the production line worker saw the mis-alignment and corrected it before stamping the matching item?
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 07:00 PM
Tony, could someone buy a complete 440 HP engine in 1969?
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 07:03 PM
Quote:
regarding the issue of trans vs engine with the numbers not be in the same alignment.
Isnt it possible the production line worker saw the mis-alignment and corrected it before stamping the matching item?
That would imply some kind of "Quality Control".... ........ah, I'm think that may not have happened back then
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 07:07 PM
yes an assembly line worker could have corrected a jumbled stamp, but i wouldnt think that to be likely
many things are possible,
and there are usually exceptions to the way things were done
ive only seen short or long blocks being warrentied,
only shortblocks show up in the parts book (at least the 1969 book)
i honestly dont know if a complete motor was available
i do have a flier from chrysler to a dealer from when the 1965 hemi engines were being sold off as complete units
but i think that was only because it was a race type motor,
not sure if otherwise
do you have pics of the tag on the motor?
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 07:11 PM
in galens book #II he does list engine assy numbers,
the last 3 digits are found on lynch rd fender tags
in 69 he only lists the last 3 digits
but the full 7 digit part # for 1970-1971
then goes back to the 3 digit #s for 72-74
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/10/09 07:59 PM
Quote:
and here's an "over the counter" '69 440 HP (2) engine, unstamped with the Bridgeport milling marks and it appears they missed the front edge of the pad during that milling.....the engine assembly date/code pad is stamped E440 3 28 HP 2 with a upside down "C" and a sideways "B"
MikeR
which end ???
edit ... I see tony touched on that
Posted By: BulletBob
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/11/09 05:50 AM
Are there any detials left out? Does the date match the car.
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/12/09 01:24 AM
So in 1971 on Cudas and Challengers Chrysler used a machine to roll the numbers onto the motor and transmission. Does anyone have any picturs of such a piece of machinery. I ask this because I was wondering just what the machine looked like to be able to be held against the motor and later the transmission so the rolled press would happen. If there was not a way to hold this machine against the motor and then the transmission then there would be not enough pressure to complete the stamping.
I have seen the stamp or punch that was used via changing the numbers and hitting the punch with a hammer. I can see by going to the 1B###### you would only have to have one punch in 1971. Other years that use complete VINS would have to have many punches or have the ability to change not only the numbers but the letter. Example RS,RM,WS,WM
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/12/09 01:30 AM
It was a pneumatic hammer kind of punch. I found a pic of one but think it is on my machine at work. Cha-chunk, Cha-chunk
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/12/09 01:59 AM
Here is one company but not the one I found a while ago.
web page
Posted By: rayztoy
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/12/09 09:09 PM
If a block was replaced under warranty by the dealer, if it were stamped, would it be 'HAND' stamped? Also, would the warranty block have the upper pad by the waterpump stamped with an assy date from the factory, or did the dealer 'HAND' stamp that also? Were there any short/long blocks that were NOT stamped? Thanks.
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/12/09 11:25 PM
Some on this thread have said the dealership stamped warranty blocks.
I've been to over 100 dealerships over the years from 1975 into the 90's... in their stockrooms, upstairs, downstairs... all over.
A couple members here have been to more dealerships than me I'm sure.
In my travels I've yet to stumble onto anything that resembles any stamps in dealership inventory.
There is no part number that exists for such, so where did they come from.
Was there a bulletin telling the dealerships told to go to Napa or somewhere and buy stamps if needed.
Perhaps they were kept in the vault.
Posted By: rayztoy
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/12/09 11:54 PM
Hi Terry,
Thanks for chiming in. Would a warranty replacement block have the upper pad stamped by the water pump with the assy date? If so, would it have a warranty designation(ie:W or S)as an indicator?
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 12:05 AM
It will have a number date (no year letter) and a "440" but it will either have S, W or WT on the ones I've seen.
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 12:12 AM
Quote:
Some on this thread have said the dealership stamped warranty blocks.
I've been to over 100 dealerships over the years from 1975 into the 90's... in their stockrooms, upstairs, downstairs... all over.
A couple members here have been to more dealerships than me I'm sure.
In my travels I've yet to stumble onto anything that resembles any stamps in dealership inventory.
There is no part number that exists for such, so where did they come from.
Was there a bulletin telling the dealerships told to go to Napa or somewhere and buy stamps if needed.
Perhaps they were kept in the vault.
Actually number and letter stamp sets are pretty common and I know many machanics and machine shop guys that have their own personal sets in their tool chests or tool boxes. We have four sets here alone at work and even a pneumatic engraver for motorcycle frames so I don't see why a dealerships service department wouldn't have a set or access to a set if it was required by State law to I.D. stamp something if replaced? Complete sets are only $60 - $200 on average so it's not out of reach for a good professional service shop IMO.
I know first hand that in California if for instance a replaced motorcycle engine is not stamped with the original engine number that is on the title the entire motorcycle is conficated and considered stolen even on a dirt bike. I had to explain this to a CHP officer that sometimes dirt bike engine cases are damaged beyond repair and replaced with even a used set but this didn't matter and it didn't match the title and what made it worse the kid that owned it was the nephew of a Sheriff he knew. So if it is required to restamp a replaced engine in a State then it better be done.
Individual or complete sets not too costly......
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 12:17 AM
Here you go for $615 or a little more you can have one of these....
Posted By: rayztoy
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 12:18 AM
Would a block with the assy date stamped on the upper pad (ie: F440 HP 12 01), but with no stamp (ie:blank) on the bottom pad be a block from the parts dept(over the counter purchase), not warranty replacment?
Thanks Jimmy!
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 12:32 AM
Never seen one like that....how about original motor that was never smacked with the VIN? Seen that.
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 12:34 AM
Quote:
Would a block with the assy date stamped on the upper pad (ie: F440 HP 12 01), but with no stamp (ie:blank) on the bottom pad be a block from the parts dept(over the counter purchase), not warranty replacment?
Thanks Jimmy!
That's the way an engine that I have is and I'm trying to see if the guy that bought it back in '69 still has a bill of sale or info on how that came about. The Engine Assembly Date (EAD) the type (HP etc.) the test and fitment tollerences I would think would be put on the pad or how else would Chrysler know what was assembled? What happened to engines that were built and the car order was canceled? Did the engine plant ever produce engines before there was an order for a car for it to go in? I would think there had to be some "cushion" with engine building that if there was a defect or engine that needed torn apart for repair at the test stage that they had better have a ready to go identical engine for replacement quickly? Those engines could also be sold "over the counter" if not needed......
MikeR
Posted By: rayztoy
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 12:39 AM
Quote:
Never seen one like that....how about original motor that was never smacked with the VIN? Seen that.
Yes, you could say it was the original motor that was never stamped, but without paperwork, you couldn't say it was original based on heresay. What would you call it then?
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 01:00 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Never seen one like that....how about original motor that was never smacked with the VIN? Seen that.
Yes, you could say it was the original motor that was never stamped, but without paperwork, you couldn't say it was original based on heresay. What would you call it then?
A job For Frank B. to do his CSI thing!
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 01:08 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Never seen one like that....how about original motor that was never smacked with the VIN? Seen that.
Yes, you could say it was the original motor that was never stamped, but without paperwork, you couldn't say it was original based on heresay. What would you call it then?
Here's my unstamped engine, this is the one from the earlier photo post showing the milling machine marks on the engine VIN pad and it is not stamped
but the EAD 3 28, year (1969) "E", displacement "440", upside down "C" and sideways "B" is stamped into the pad on top, how else would Chrysler know what it was if it was just sitting there?
This was supposedly purchased from a Chrysler/Plymouth dealer's parts department for a "kit car". It's not a marine engine, not a commercial engine, it's an E440 HP (2) 440 engine with 906 heads, a 4-bbl intake manifold, 402 oil pan, forged crank and standard fuel pump....
MikeR
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 01:23 AM
I think it is a production motor that came out of a car that was never stamped. All warranty and service motors I have ever seen (around 8-10) have a W, S or WT on them. Does the paint look correct? Warranty motors were not painted. Again - I am just thinking out loud here - without the key piece of history it is next to impossible to nail down. It is easy to speculate though!
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 01:25 AM
Is there anyway to tell which engine plant assembled an engine? Anything in the casting clock/calendar/markings? or say a stamping on the pan gasket area, etc.,??
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 01:34 AM
Quote:
I think it is a production motor that came out of a car that was never stamped. All warranty and service motors I have ever seen (around 8-10) have a W, S or WT on them. Does the paint look correct? Warranty motors were not painted. Again - I am just thinking out loud here - without the key piece of history it is next to impossible to nail down. It is easy to speculate though!
Take a little closer look to the left on the bellhousing area and you'll see part of a metal tag that is "nail riveted" there. Also I think you can just see painted on large letters for I think the piston to cylinder fitment tollerence on the side of the block, were those on warranty blocks?
Purchased for an Excalibur Kit Car from a Chrysler/Plymouth dealer in 1969 is what I was told so I guess I have to talk to the person who bought it..pretty good story none the less
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 01:34 AM
I think all 440's (of our era) were built at the Trenton plant
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 01:36 AM
I have those letters on a bunch of my original motors. It was to help match pistons to the bores. A, B, C etc.
Posted By: stateline
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 04:19 AM
over the counter short block
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 11:49 AM
Quote:
Would a block with the assy date stamped on the upper pad (ie: F440 HP 12 01), but with no stamp (ie:blank) on the bottom pad be a block from the parts dept(over the counter purchase), not warranty replacment?
Thanks Jimmy!
A warranty of service replacement wouldn't be stamped like that on the ID pad unless it was removed from the line .
nenevrmind I'd want to see the ACTUAL dealer paperwork PROVING the car had it's engine replaced under warranty otherwise its a BS attempt at justifying why a car doesn't have it's original block
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 12:48 PM
I know of a few 71 Hemi Cuda's that did not get their (Original) engine and trans vin stamp. The engine assy sequential numbers fit right in line with other production Hemi's. The assy dates and engine and trans were right in the window and many other ways to check.
Posted By: rayztoy
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 03:15 PM
All that being said, a block with no stamp on the bottom pad, but has an upper assy stamp
without the W or S, would be considered a NOM, date coded block, as there usually is NO PAPERWORK to document that the block wasn't stamped from the factory. Correct?
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 04:47 PM
Quote:
Take a little closer look to the left on the bellhousing area and you'll see part of a metal tag that is "nail riveted" there. Also I think you can just see painted on large letters for I think the piston to cylinder fitment tollerence on the side of the block, were those on warranty blocks?Quote:
These neglected crate shortblock assemblies all came from a Chrysler depot... unpainted, letters on the side, the blue tag riveted to them, wooden crated with steel bands, along with some paperwork laying inside.
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 04:51 PM
In all likelyhood this is the way they would have arrived at a dealership that ordered one for replacement (obviously not looking this rough from 40 years of neglect)
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 04:54 PM
This particular one is a truck 361, letters painted on the side. It would seem logical that the dealership after assembling the motor, would repaint the assembly before installation.
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 05:02 PM
Here's the blue metal tag and other paper tags that were with a 273 engine.. move order, OK stamp, and the 2951513 short assembly tag, being the pn for 273.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 05:38 PM
Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 06:11 PM
Quote:
Numbers match not going your way?? data plate incorrect or need to add a few items??....here ya go... 
http://www.hobbytool.com/deluxenumberandletterstampingset.aspx
http://www.universalmarking.com/metal_marking.html#name_plates
Yeah,but you have to worry that the font may or may not be correct!
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 06:38 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Numbers match not going your way?? data plate incorrect or need to add a few items??....here ya go...
http://www.hobbytool.com/deluxenumberandletterstampingset.aspx
http://www.universalmarking.com/metal_marking.html#name_plates
Yeah,but you have to worry that the font may or may not be correct!
I think that EDM die might be able to solve that.
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 06:58 PM
Here is an NOS 440 shortblock member FJ5 Fish had in his possession.
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 07:00 PM
stampings here
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 07:00 PM
build date
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/13/09 07:02 PM
untouched pad
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/14/09 01:43 PM
Quote:
build date
that's the CASTING date , it was assembled on 3/5 according to the ID pad , but very interesting , NO MODEL YEAR on the ID pad , I wonder when that stamp was applied
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/14/09 09:36 PM
That is kind of the point I am (maybe) trying to (possibly) make sorta (did I cover my rear enough yet?
).
All the Service, Warranty and over the counter blocks I have seen (around 10 or so - which I'm sure is not every one ever sold :^) ) Do not have the Series Letter on them (D,E,F,G etc.).
That is why the one with all the production car stuff on top (E440, HP etc) and no VIN poked on the pad intrigues me.
Posted By: stateline
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/15/09 01:19 AM
warrenty replacement short engine no stamping anywhere on it
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/15/09 12:28 PM
how do you know its a warrenty short block + not just an over the counter block that was assembled?
a short block SHOULD have assy date info on the pad + a tag or hole on the rh side of the block typically above the forward coreplug where the rivet was holding the tag in place
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/15/09 01:44 PM
Quote:
how do you know its a warrenty short block + not just an over the counter block that was assembled?
a short block SHOULD have assy date info on the pad + a tag or hole on the rh side of the block typically above the forward coreplug where the rivet was holding the tag in place
ding ding ding .... WINNER
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/15/09 01:53 PM
On the previous pictures I posted of the shortblock assemblies I located, along with the blue rivetted tag and paper tags was this oil soaked engine instructions sheet.
Posted By: RoadRunner
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT**PICTURE UPDATE** - 06/15/09 02:03 PM
Quote:
Here is my take on it...its a restamp. Why, whell, the stamping of the blocks and engines were done by a machine that had wheels where you set the number/letter combination. So you would set 0B12345 and stamp the engine and transmission. Then set to 0B12346 and do the next (assuming sequential VIN for this argument sake). So if the person setting the wheels dropped the third digit slightly (say the "1" was a little lower, then the same error would be in both places. Also, since the wheels were in a line, all the letters should be lined up. Thes are all over the place. I have seen the whole stampings crooked, but the relative spacing and alignment is always the same. This is also why you see transposed numbers show up in both places usually. Lastly, the font is off. I am no expert, but have seen a few VIN stampings, and know that that font is not right. Just my
Ok, I am going to throw all this out the window. I cleaned out the garage and looked at the three blocks and two transmissions I have. The one four speed shows a similar font and crooked alignment like your engine stamp. The transmission has been with me since '84 so I doubt it was restamped. The VINS all look like the examples given here with repsect to font, alignment and depth of pad machining (all of mine look to be original). The auto transmission stamping looks like VIN stamping. So who knows.
Posted By: mccannix
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/15/09 02:07 PM
hard for you to read but this instruction sheet states in part...
Engine Assemblies are supplied only with blank engine number pad. Dealers are to be governed by their state law on the application of engine numbers in the field.
The Engine Assemblies have model number given on a small plate attached to the cylinder block near the front end of the engine pad.
Reference to this model number should be made when ordering parts for this engine to make sure correct parts are shipped.
Posted By: stateline
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/16/09 12:44 AM
Quote:
Quote:
how do you know its a warrenty short block + not just an over the counter block that was assembled?
a short block SHOULD have assy date info on the pad + a tag or hole on the rh side of the block typically above the forward coreplug where the rivet was holding the tag in place
ding ding ding .... WINNER
Sorry boys , I worked at a Chry. dealer and installed it is the car ,bought it when the car got wrecked of coarse I cant prove that now , I dont have a pic of me doing . 
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/16/09 01:20 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
how do you know its a warrenty short block + not just an over the counter block that was assembled?
a short block SHOULD have assy date info on the pad + a tag or hole on the rh side of the block typically above the forward coreplug where the rivet was holding the tag in place
ding ding ding .... WINNER
Sorry boys , I worked at a Chry. dealer and installed it is the car ,bought it when the car got wrecked of coarse I cant prove that now , I dont have a pic of me doing .
Or any paper work to back it up
Posted By: gtx6970
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/16/09 02:24 PM
Looks like 2 different fonts on the numeral 4
Posted By: FJ5_Fish
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/16/09 03:26 PM
Different "4's" Yes - I have seen that a lot on original matching motors as well.
Posted By: court9155
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/16/09 08:19 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
and here's an "over the counter" '69 440 HP (2) engine, unstamped with the Bridgeport milling marks and it appears they missed the front edge of the pad during that milling.....the engine assembly date/code pad is stamped E440 3 28 HP 2 with a upside down "C" and a sideways "B"
MikeR
Is it just me or do I see numbers stamped in the cast iron above the pad on this block also?
Jack, that's my block and I've never seen anything that looked like a stamping there but maybe I didn't look closely enough??? I'll look again when I get a chance. This engine was supposedly in an Excalibur kit car like this one (not the car or engine) back in '69 and purchased over the counter from a Chrysler dealer's parts department. It was a complete engine and was stamped with an assembly date and type of engine E440 HP. A very strange tag is nail riveted to the bellhousing area with HP 440 on it. I can't get to the engine right now but now I have to go look at that area again more closely. Anyway the milling marks were all that I was trying to point out that should be there stamper or not stamped.
MikeR
Wow that is one of 44 of those built in 69. Wonder what happened to it after the 440 was robbed out of it.
Posted By: hemigeno
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/18/09 01:32 AM
Quote:
Different "4's" Yes - I have seen that a lot on original matching motors as well.
Here's an original stamping with mis-matched "4's" that might leave you scratching your head for a while... Tony D'A. should recognize it pretty quickly...
Posted By: QuickSilver
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/18/09 10:52 AM
Well, what about this 1968 D440hp motor that I got with a '68 GTX that I purchased some years ago. I wasn't too concerned with the whole numbers matching thing but after looking it over very well, it is stamped on the top pad with D440 HP along with 5 23. There is no vin stamping on the pan rail but I did find what looks to be a vin stamp on top of the bell housing right where the trans lines up? Was there something peculiar to the 68 cars? At first I thought that maybe it was replacement but there is no tag. Maybe only Ma Mopar knows for sure!
Posted By: Bull1tt
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/18/09 11:45 AM
Quote:
There is no vin stamping on the pan rail but I did find what looks to be a vin stamp on top of the bell housing right where the trans lines up? Was there something peculiar to the 68 cars?
That's where it's supposed to be on a '68 engine.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/18/09 12:39 PM
Quote:
Quote:
There is no vin stamping on the pan rail but I did find what looks to be a vin stamp on top of the bell housing right where the trans lines up? Was there something peculiar to the 68 cars?
That's where it's supposed to be on a '68 engine.
What he said , that's the 68 location , if the car has an auto trans the trans is stamped in the same location as the engine , 4 speed will be stamped down on the side same as 69 up ...
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/18/09 01:16 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
There is no vin stamping on the pan rail but I did find what looks to be a vin stamp on top of the bell housing right where the trans lines up? Was there something peculiar to the 68 cars?
That's where it's supposed to be on a '68 engine.
What he said , that's the 68 location , if the car has an auto trans the trans is stamped in the same location as the engine , 4 speed will be stamped down on the side same as 69 up ...
'68 (rr short block) engine/VIN location - driver's side/top/rear
MikeR
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/18/09 01:19 PM
The EAD pad from the above block, pretty angled and the HP and "2" in an odd location?
Posted By: A12
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/18/09 04:20 PM
two different "3"'s in the 383 and date in the above EAD
Posted By: dart440
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 06/27/09 04:37 AM
The warranty replacement in my 69 GTX was NOT stamped at the dealer with the VIN, it was left unstamped (had dealer service records with the car).
Posted By: Chargerfan68
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 03:38 AM
On a 68 engine where the vin is stamped on the upper bellhousing area by the oil pressure unit, would they have used the same machine for the vin , even though that area is curved? It is not a flat pad like on post 68's. Or, was it stamped by hand?
Thanks,
Greg.
Posted By: smac77
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 04:49 AM
Quote:
The EAD pad from the above block, pretty angled and the HP and "2" in an odd location?
Theories on the different font ??
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 05:02 AM
my #,s 383 formula S ragtop .. NOT THE SAME
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 05:20 AM
Quote:
I'm certainly no expert, but I've seen more than a few VIN pads over the years. If I were looking at a car to buy, and I saw the pad stamped that way, I would immediately think "fake", and base my buying decision on it being a non-numbers matching car.
...and (I believe), a 1971 block would have the FULL vin on it.
also the bevel on top of the pad is about twice as deep as any other block i have seen..
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 05:34 AM
Quote:
The EAD pad from the above block, pretty angled and the HP and "2" in an odd location?
That does not look out of the ordinary for a 383 and I think that is the location of the 2 for second shift stamp , I'm pretty sure I have at least one like that .
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 10:55 AM
Quote:
yes it was true where I worked but no many ever bothered
I'll chime in on that too- I worked for Ma Mopar since the 80's and we never bothered. Already getting shorted on the labor time to do the job and you want me to do what?
BTW- The vin on the original trans from my Duster is screwed up, off one digit in the middle.
Posted By: migsBIG
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 11:47 AM
Love this post, getting to really know the diffrent aspects of block identifiction. I feel more educated reading all the info.
Posted By: migsBIG
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 11:52 AM
Here is another question. Did they use the same spamping equipment for other parts on the vehicle like the cowl, radiator support and other ereas?
Posted By: N9671X2
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 12:43 PM
Quote:
On a 68 engine where the vin is stamped on the upper bellhousing area by the oil pressure unit, would they have used the same machine for the vin , even though that area is curved? It is not a flat pad like on post 68's. Or, was it stamped by hand?
Thanks,
Greg.
I think the 68s were stamped by hand. I bought a numbers motor/auto tranny 68 hemi charger 10 years ago. The drivetrain was out of the car, but untouched to the point of original plug wires. Car had been of the road since the 70s. I wiped the oil/grime off to check the numbers, the block only had 5 numerical digits, it was missing one of the middle numbers. Both tranny and motor numbers were really sloppy, I really got the impression they were done by hand and not machine like later years.
Posted By: 6PakBee
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 01:46 PM
Quote:
I think the 68s were stamped by hand. I bought a numbers motor/auto tranny 68 hemi charger 10 years ago. The drivetrain was out of the car, but untouched to the point of original plug wires. Car had been of the road since the 70s. I wiped the oil/grime off to check the numbers, the block only had 5 numerical digits, it was missing one of the middle numbers. Both tranny and motor numbers were really sloppy, I really got the impression they were done by hand and not machine like later years.
Take a look at the distributor pad on a '66-'67 Hemi. Definitely hand stamped.
Posted By: 451 D*O*D*G*E
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 04:35 PM
My opinion on the font is that the hardened steel would break and they would slide a new number on and the maufactuer of the stamp might have been different.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 07:50 PM
Posted By: pnypwr
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/26/11 09:56 PM
the "original" block for my 68 runner is weird also...I have knowledge back to 1970 of the car and motor wasnt ever changed from then on...the block has a mid 66 casting its stamped D383 on the pad no other numbers except but has 2 numbers with an x over them. the julian dating puts it oct 67 assy date and the dates in the bearing inserts are 9 67 my car has a spd of 1 68 so in the assy window, i cant find a vin stamp on it anywhere so who knows, but it had all the correct parts intake exh heads pan etc and all dates are right in line with the engine...is it assy line engine, got me...
Posted By: 70HemiGTX
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/27/11 12:01 PM
Were the blocks, trans, rad. support, and the trunk seal lip all stamped at the same time? I have thought about this before, but never saw anything posted anywhere. You would think this would make sense, because I assumed they would make a "stamp pad" up with the numbers on and slam it into all needing areas at once, then change the next # for the next car and just keep going. Maybe I'm totally wrong also.
Posted By: cudaboone
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/27/11 01:55 PM
The 3's and 4's being different is no big deal. It is from the numbers in the stamping wheels being changed in the factory due to damage or wearing out and the replacement number is different..
Posted By: MY340
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/27/11 02:55 PM
It's tough to stamp an engine block or transmission correctly after a 12 pack of beer and/or a couple of joints at the factory.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/27/11 03:44 PM
Quote:
Were the blocks, trans, rad. support, and the trunk seal lip all stamped at the same time? I have thought about this before, but never saw anything posted anywhere. You would think this would make sense, because I assumed they would make a "stamp pad" up with the numbers on and slam it into all needing areas at once, then change the next # for the next car and just keep going. Maybe I'm totally wrong also.
No they were not, the body was stamped before it was painted , the engine and trans were in a different part of the plant. They used different fonts for some digits , like the 6 and 1
Quote:
No they were not, the body was stamped before it was painted , the engine and trans were in a different part of the plant. They used different fonts for some digits , like the 6 and 1
Yep, and the engine ID top pad stampings were done at a different location (engine assembly area) and accordingly, done with a different set of stamping dies than the application of the VIN sequence stamping (assembly line) as well.
Posted By: Iceman01
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/27/11 07:17 PM
Quote:
It's tough to stamp an engine block or transmission correctly after a 12 pack of beer and/or a couple of joints at the factory.
I never fail to get a kick out of reading these types of threads where our resident experts authoritatively try to determine with 100% accuracy what happened 40 odd years ago in a distant factory -- particularly when they themselves were never in one!
The author above has accurately described my own recollections of working in the mid-late 1970s at Chevrolet Metal Fabricating, Buick Final Assembly and Fisher Body in Flint, Michigan. While I readily admit the details I observed in those GM factories likely differ from those found at Chrysler, I bet they don't differ that substantially. The general state of the blue collar, auto industry at that time was the same everywhere.
As such, it is difficult to see how anyone can authoritatively state that anything coming from those factories was either possible or impossible back then. Yes, you can know what the company's policies were. Yes, you can talk to the old timers who worked the line. But in the end, what happened each day out on the line was inconsistent at best. There was a lame effort at quality control, but it never got close to producing 100% positive results at anything! General statements about what we think likely happened at the factory are the best we can do.
Obvious fraud needs to be called out when seen, but be careful about what you definitively state. These discussions almost always end up putting a cloud of suspicion over the car in question. That's appropriate in cases of obvious fraud, but financially damaging to those whose only crime is that they happen to have a car built by a factory line worker who went out to his car for lunch that day and had a couple beers and a joint. DAMHIK...
Posted By: Beebuzzn
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/27/11 07:47 PM
I'll second that. When I worked at a big plane manufacture for many years you would see the same thing. With sub assy. part numbers most were hand stamped and even with everyone using the same tools there was still some variation. That's why they started using pin stamp machines and even then there was variations between the operators. It did help thou after those long lunches I heard.
Posted By: cdp
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 12:47 AM
Quote:
regarding the issue of trans vs engine with the numbers not be in the same alignment.
Isnt it possible the production line worker saw the mis-alignment and corrected it before stamping the matching item?
On the trans, I believe that you are 100% right on that. The misplaced 7 probably was not deep enough, so they stamped it by hand separately. I had to do it myself at a previous job.
The block, I believe, was not done by ma-mopar. Too wide, too tall, etc. The machined pad being "too deep" I don't believe is true. It could be core shift, machine set up, etc., during original manufacturing. That doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't have been done at a dealership, etc., for a factory replacement. But, I'd be willing to bet 99% of the replacement motors were never stamped.
I worked for Stahl's Specialty aluminum foundry from 1993-1998 in the quality conrtol department.
The automatic stamping machines had their stamps changed out every shift. If a stamp was getting worn, allot of the times they would shim it to get more use. Which causes 1 stamp to gouge deeper into the metal than the rest, or sometimes, they would do nothing, and a few characters would be very faint.
I'd say 80% of the products were hand stamped. Replacement stamps were kept in the tool crib and workers would change out and return letters/stamps every day for the correct ones they needed. There was obvious room for human error, but the 1st thing for the day as an inspector was to check all the lines for correct dates/part #'s.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 03:11 AM
here,s an interesting one.. i bought this off craigslist a few weeks ago F 440 HP2 7 28..
ck out the vin pad on the block with 9B 292747 under it! i suspect this engine had a problem at the factory and when it was repaired it then went into a 70 car as based on the pad stamp also notice the funny little star.. dan
.jpg "6553393-ebag444(Large).jpg")
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 03:13 AM
pad kinda hard to read some idiot hit it with a pretty heavy grinder to clean it off sometime..
.jpg "6553399-ebag447(Large).jpg")
Dan the star is likely a line worker or inspectors mark which is likely there due to the re-stamp.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 03:20 AM
so what do you think happened? the cast date is 11/18/68! dan
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 05:03 AM
Quote:
so what do you think happened? the cast date is 11/18/68! dan
I agree with Scott and have one like that in my collection. I'll try to post some pics.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 05:37 AM
so something happened to the block/engine and it never got out of the factory possibly? then it was repaired and re used at a later date? correct? maybe? thanks guys dan
Posted By: pacifica
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 06:02 AM
Quote:
Dan the star is likely a line worker or inspectors mark which is likely there due to the re-stamp.
So my car doesn't have the original motor. If I restamp the pad and ad a star, am I good?
Posted By: fig426
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 06:38 AM
2 stars. 1 for effort.
Posted By: 70HemiGTX
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 01:45 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Were the blocks, trans, rad. support, and the trunk seal lip all stamped at the same time? I have thought about this before, but never saw anything posted anywhere. You would think this would make sense, because I assumed they would make a "stamp pad" up with the numbers on and slam it into all needing areas at once, then change the next # for the next car and just keep going. Maybe I'm totally wrong also.
No they were not, the body was stamped before it was painted , the engine and trans were in a different part of the plant. They used different fonts for some digits , like the 6 and 1
Yea, I should have thought of that. Old age...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 03:11 PM
Quote:
pad kinda hard to read some idiot hit it with a pretty heavy grinder to clean it off sometime..
The idiot was probably the guy that repaired and replaced whatever was wrong and needed to change that E to an F ?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 03:12 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Dan the star is likely a line worker or inspectors mark which is likely there due to the re-stamp.
So my car doesn't have the original motor. If I restamp the pad and ad a star, am I good?
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 09:36 PM
The strangest factory VIN stamping I've seen. This is out of my Charger that my dad bought new, so there's no doubt about it's originality.
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 09:37 PM
PAD
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 09:38 PM
Some more REAL stuff.
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 09:39 PM
another
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 09:40 PM
1968
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 09:41 PM
Same 1968 PAD
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/28/11 09:43 PM
You notice that some of the original hash marks point up and some down?
Posted By: Chargerfan68
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/29/11 04:34 AM
Quote:
Same 1968 PAD
I didn't think the '68 blocks had any pads on the sides. Three blocks that I have do not have them. Isn't that '69 and up...or is it a late '68 thing?
Greg.
Posted By: ademon
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/29/11 07:10 AM
the vin #'s on the auto trans were from the same stamping devise as the engine? I could swear the pads on my two 71 SB 727's are smaller and the font is smaller than the engine stamp?????
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/29/11 06:52 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Same 1968 PAD
I didn't think the '68 blocks had any pads on the sides. Three blocks that I have do not have them. Isn't that '69 and up...or is it a late '68 thing?
Greg.
I'm not sure the exact date the 68 started having machined pads, but I have noticed some. This one was cast 4-30-68 and had an assembly date of 6-5-68.
Posted By: satgtx
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/30/11 12:35 AM
i have this 383 engine neither the VIN pad or assembley pad have anything on them except the hash marks. 1968 cast date.
Posted By: satgtx
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/30/11 12:36 AM
VIN pad
Posted By: satgtx
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/30/11 12:39 AM
how about this one
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/30/11 05:08 AM
Quote:
how about this one
That is factory stamped .
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/30/11 04:35 PM
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/30/11 04:37 PM
Quote:
ck out this #,s matching 440-6 challengers stamp! wow!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Cha...=item3a64899f2e
He even posted a picture of the trans stamp clearly showing the difference in fonts ... what a MAAROON ...
Posted By: Morty426
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/30/11 04:55 PM
Quote:
Quote:
ck out this #,s matching 440-6 challengers stamp! wow!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Cha...=item3a64899f2e
He even posted a picture of the trans stamp clearly showing the difference in fonts ... what a MAROON ...
Well that "reastoration" was special 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/30/11 05:30 PM
Here is an example of Chrysler's quality control at it's finest.
Keep in mind this is on a /6 '63 Dodge that was never molested and 90% original paint when I bought it.
First, the original VIN was obviously wrong (one on the right) so they tried stamping OVER the wrong one to make it match the VIN. Then they stamped the CORRECT one right beside it!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/30/11 10:51 PM
Quote:
Some more REAL stuff.
My engine is like that too. A couple of the numbers are double stamped.
Posted By: Alaskan_TA
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 01:30 AM
Quote:
ck out this #,s matching 440-6 challengers stamp! wow!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Cha...=item3a64899f2e
It also has a fake fender tag.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 02:55 AM
i didnt even look at the tag barry! i saw the engine and knew the car was probably doctored way more than appears..N96 dan
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 02:53 PM
Quote:
Quote:
ck out this #,s matching 440-6 challengers stamp! wow!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Cha...=item3a64899f2e
It also has a fake fender tag.
you must know this car from the past , no picture of the tag included . I just looked at all the pics , what a freakin hackjob that car is , the brake lines to the master cylinder are painted body color 
Posted By: Diego (not Ted)
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 03:03 PM
Out of curiosity, seeing a learning opportunity, I emailed the guy asking him why there were two sets of numbers on the tranny.
He said, "first set is serial # the second set i think is dates or line numbers"
Then I asked, "Shouldn't they be in the same font?"
He said, "thats how they came"
So then I asked, "From my experience, they were the same font. You sure it's #s match from the factory?"
He replied, "yes i had it a a mopar show"
I think I still have a lot to learn.
Posted By: Mopar_Mike
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 03:07 PM
Buy 1967 Cars (see below) We Don't Need No Stinkin VIN!!
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 07:03 PM
Quote:
Buy 1967 Cars (see below) We Don't Need No Stinkin VIN!!
That's right , easier to pass off as matching numbers , all you need to do is find a good dated block and such ... kidding ...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 07:05 PM
Quote:
Out of curiosity, seeing a learning opportunity, I emailed the guy asking him why there were two sets of numbers on the tranny.
He said, "first set is serial # the second set i think is dates or line numbers"
Then I asked, "Shouldn't they be in the same font?"
He said, "thats how they came"
So then I asked, "From my experience, they were the same font. You sure it's #s match from the factory?"
He replied, "yes i had it a a mopar show"
I think I still have a lot to learn.
Yes you do have a lot to learn , but at least you want to learn. The trans stampings are correct , the part number/build date/sequence built fonts is always smaller than the VIN font , the trans in that auction is CORRECT factory stampings , the VIN on the block is NOT .
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 08:56 PM
Posted By: 71redcuda
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT *DELETED* *DELETED* - 03/31/11 09:03 PM
Post deleted by 71redcuda
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 09:05 PM
thats a deep pad also and very factory looking stamped! maybe the one above is a repl block? dan
Posted By: 71redcuda
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT *DELETED* - 03/31/11 09:08 PM
Post deleted by 71redcuda
Posted By: Morty426
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 09:15 PM
Quote:
trans
You got two different 3s there
Posted By: 71redcuda
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 09:21 PM
Ok what does that mean?
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 03/31/11 10:39 PM
That means your block is a restamp-the B is not even close in size to the 3, not to mention they aren't the same font! Sorry, that's prob not what you want to hear!
Posted By: pacifica
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 12:29 AM
Quote:
That means your block is a restamp-the B is not even close in size to the 3, not to mention they aren't the same font! Sorry, that's prob not what you want to hear!
I don't see how you can be so sure. 
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 12:57 AM
pauls right.. the block alone [though heavily painted makes it hard to really see] looks ok until you see the trans.. one of them isnt right! whats the history on the car? ever owned by a used muscle car dealer? dan
Posted By: BS27R1B
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 03:49 AM
Quote:
What about this one,does the stamping look ok "factory" or? Block made:1-7-70
The two stampings are so different there is no way they are right. Transmission looks good, engine stamp is a mess.
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 04:01 AM
Quote:
Quote:
That means your block is a restamp-the B is not even close in size to the 3, not to mention they aren't the same font! Sorry, that's prob not what you want to hear!
I don't see how you can be so sure.
I'm not trying to come across as a know it all 
- I base my statement on the 25 years restoration experience, the 50 Mopars I've owned, over 100 I've dismantled, and over 10,000 pictures to document original cars. Remember, I work on these EVERY day, so you pick up on details of parts very quickly-just like you probably know your particular job inside & out.
There are plenty of originals that are quirky, but this one is very obvious when studied.
Cheers
Posted By: Troy
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 04:28 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
That means your block is a restamp-the B is not even close in size to the 3, not to mention they aren't the same font! Sorry, that's prob not what you want to hear!
I don't see how you can be so sure.
I'm not trying to come across as a know it all - I base my statement on the 25 years restoration experience, the 50 Mopars I've owned, over 100 I've dismantled, and over 10,000 pictures to document original cars. Remember, I work on these EVERY day, so you pick up on details of parts very quickly-just like you probably know your particular job inside & out.
There are plenty of originals that are quirky, but this one is very obvious when studied.
Cheers
I know a little about these cars as well and I must say that is the worst restamp I think I have ever seen.
Hi Paul, hope all is well.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 05:24 AM
Quote:
Quote:
What about this one,does the stamping look ok "factory" or? Block made:1-7-70
The two stampings are so different there is no way they are right. Transmission looks good, engine stamp is a mess.
they used many different letters and numbers obviously..however once you posted the trans it was clear there are 2 diff stamps used.. also the block is painted thick so that makes the block harder to see.. the trans indeed does look right.. dan
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 05:46 AM
Quote:
Quote:
trans
You got two different 3s there
Good eye , the engine was not stamped at the same time the trans was stamped judging by the difference in fonts .
Posted By: 71redcuda
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 06:33 AM
I think the 1B159 block looks ok but the three last numbers locks wrong.
I have a few more pictures if someone is intrested..
Owned in the 90`s by Ed Briggs.The car was restored 2002-2005 by 2 brothers in Fort Wayne,Indiana. Tom and Jeff Ruble. When the car was finished it was bought by Gary S,work/worked on Atlantamusclecars.Gary sold the car in 2006 to a guy in Romeo,Michigan.
Posted By: 71redcuda
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 06:39 AM
more.2780930-340-? Its a 1971 (E55) 340 car.
Quote:
That means your block is a restamp-the B is not even close in size to the 3, not to mention they aren't the same font! Sorry, that's prob not what you want to hear!
I agree with Paul on this one, USUALLY the complete stamping (numbers spacing, alignment, etc.) should match very closely if not exactly, but the actual letter and number fonts should ALWAYS match in size and shape, they were each stamped moments appart by the same guy with the same stamping tooling on the production line.
Posted By: gtx6970
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 01:31 PM
LA plant - Dec 1969 SBD 1970 Challenger 340 and it's original auto trans
Posted By: gtx6970
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 01:31 PM
2
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 01:51 PM
Quote:
I think the 1B159 block looks ok but the three last numbers locks wrong.
I have a few more pictures if someone is intrested..
Owned in the 90`s by Ed Briggs.The car was restored 2002-2005 by 2 brothers in Fort Wayne,Indiana. Tom and Jeff Ruble. When the car was finished it was bought by Gary S,work/worked on Atlantamusclecars.Gary sold the car in 2006 to a guy in Romeo,Michigan.
One of those 2 items is a restamp, the fact that there are different fonts on at least one number tells you that the same tooling was not used. As Scott said they were stamped within minutes of each other by the same person with the same tool. ...
Unless of course it was UNION break time , the guy stamped the engine , put down the tool and someone else took the tool during break so the original guy had to go to the tool room and get a new stamp set and start over ....
Posted By: 71redcuda
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/01/11 02:15 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I think the 1B159 block looks ok but the three last numbers locks wrong.
I have a few more pictures if someone is intrested..
Owned in the 90`s by Ed Briggs.The car was restored 2002-2005 by 2 brothers in Fort Wayne,Indiana. Tom and Jeff Ruble. When the car was finished it was bought by Gary S,work/worked on Atlantamusclecars.Gary sold the car in 2006 to a guy in Romeo,Michigan.
One of those 2 items is a restamp, the fact that there are different fonts on at least one number tells you that the same tooling was not used. As Scott said they were stamped within minutes of each other by the same person with the same tool. ...
Unless of course it was UNION break time , the guy stamped the engine , put down the tool and someone else took the tool during break so the original guy had to go to the tool room and get a new stamp set and start over ....
Who knows,but that is probobly not what happened..
Lucky for me i will keep the car..But it had been good if i had all this VIN-stamp info back in 2008.But i was 20 years old then and you learn something new every day..
Quote:
Buy 1967 Cars (see below) We Don't Need No Stinkin VIN!!
No, but you typically DO NEED some other markings, stampings, and casting dates to be right if you want to call it "correct".
Posted By: CrAlt
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/03/11 03:51 AM
*WARNING NOT A MOPAR**
But at 4:38 you can see the tool in use that everyone is talking about and see how there could be so many differences with its location.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YII-h21xJvw
crAlt.....PERFECT example! Mopars were done in a very similar fashion.
Posted By: pacifica
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 04/03/11 06:20 PM
Nice video find.....thanks!
Posted By: jacb
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 07/16/14 01:35 AM
Quote:
Nice video find.....thanks!
Here is a picture taken from the video before it disappears!
The tool looked liked this
Thanks A12 for the picture - $600+ where did you get that price? I found a brand called Bradma for a different project.
Bradma
Posted By: cdp
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 07/20/14 01:06 AM
From 1993-1998, I worked in an aluminum founder. We made parts for the big 3, cat, detroit, etc. All finished casting atleast had a date stamp as a minimum. The tool was a simple hand stamp similar to the one pictured above. The tool crib carried the single stamps that was taken out a simple cotter pin, replaced with the new # or #'s, then the cotter pin was reinstalled and was set to go. The stamps would wear out, and the stamp holder would sometimes be loose so the stamps would wiggle around from general usage. When stamping, the rock back and forth leaving a dull or 1/2 stamp. Line workers didn't really care, just another step in the process.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#metal-stamps/=sws3ibI'd say double stamping, etc, was common. Not getting a good stamp the 1st time, then trying again to make it more legible. Or, inspection dept, (which was the dept. I was in) would have to look for things and re-stamp ourselves. Sometimes, with an older stamp set because we normally didn't (or shouldn't) have to use it that much.
Posted By: Benji
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 07/20/14 10:54 PM
Having worked for a number of years in a "factory" type of setting with "factory" type of workers most (but not all) of them are there for the paycheck only. Their mantra was "they don't pay me enough money to think" and "I don't work for the effen company, I work for the union." So if the line supervisor said something MUST be done a certain way some of the guys would NOT do it that way just to show they can't be ordered around (like stamping numbers in a straight line.)
My dad taught me to always do the job right, always do what the boss said in the way he said and to always give just a little more than what the boss expected. It was good advice then and it still is. I can just imagine what kind of work was produced on Mondays after a weekend of heavy drinking and toking on some Mary Jane!
Benji
Posted By: hemiviper588
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT *DELETED* - 07/22/14 10:19 PM
Post deleted by hemiviper588
Posted By: hemiviper588
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT *DELETED* - 07/22/14 10:19 PM
Post deleted by hemiviper588
Posted By: ogopogo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 07/22/14 10:42 PM
I have an original paint challenger project car I bought about 10 yrs ago,LA built.the #s are all messed up on the car.
vin tag and original door sticker read: 210854
cowl and rad support read 211854
transmission reads 210854 but last two numbers are stamped over top of original #s which read "71" .challenger # 210871 is registered with galen and has its #s trans still.
motor is the worst,it is stamped 220154
all research(previous owner history) indicates this is the original engine from the car...................
Is there a logical explanation for how a car could be so screwed up?
Its just a 4 barrel wedge car so not valuable.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 07/23/14 01:35 AM
Quote:
I have an original paint challenger project car I bought about 10 yrs ago,LA built.the #s are all messed up on the car.
vin tag and original door sticker read: 210854
cowl and rad support read 211854
transmission reads 210854 but last two numbers are stamped over top of original #s which read "71" .challenger # 210871 is registered with galen and has its #s trans still.
motor is the worst,it is stamped 220154
all research(previous owner history) indicates this is the original engine from the car...................
Is there a logical explanation for how a car could be so screwed up?
Its just a 4 barrel wedge car so not valuable.
YEP..drunk after lunch...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 07/23/14 04:19 AM
When someone goes to prison for a long time after selling a fake --restamped car to a Federal Judge or guy rich and po'd enough to make it happen then....this hobby may change but until then sellers want it to be good / buyers also WANT to believe and truth is that this buying/selling is not a hobby but a very unregulated business with potential high profits. Crooks will take advantage. Problem as I see it are the cars that have been bought/sold and represented by nationally known market places and after advertised-bought-sold- as GOOD they are good for life. Well .....what to do about that. We all know cars that are fakes--All of us have seen or know first hand about them--so if you blow the whistle to save the hobby will you get sued by the current owner as he protects his "investment"?
Right.......Can you Prove it is fake? In court? Probably no more than they can its real but you get the picture. Morel here is most are probably fake and until we have a nationally recognized certification ---ugh wait a minute ...wasn't that called Bloomington Gold? And ....we all know of fake Vettes that have the Gold er ugh.....oh well
Buyer Beware ( that car is a fraud dude)
Posted By: hemiviper588
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT *DELETED* - 07/24/14 10:11 PM
Post deleted by hemiviper588
Posted By: hemiviper588
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT *DELETED* - 07/24/14 10:13 PM
Post deleted by hemiviper588
Posted By: hemiviper588
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT *DELETED* - 07/24/14 10:13 PM
Post deleted by hemiviper588
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 07/25/14 04:26 PM
Quote:
Last one
Interesting pics! Thanks for sharing!
Posted By: 52savoy
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 07/25/14 06:34 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I have an original paint challenger project car I bought about 10 yrs ago,LA built.the #s are all messed up on the car.
vin tag and original door sticker read: 210854
cowl and rad support read 211854
transmission reads 210854 but last two numbers are stamped over top of original #s which read "71" .challenger # 210871 is registered with galen and has its #s trans still.
motor is the worst,it is stamped 220154
all research(previous owner history) indicates this is the original engine from the car...................
Is there a logical explanation for how a car could be so screwed up?
Its just a 4 barrel wedge car so not valuable.
YEP..drunk after lunch...
Inattention... used to see it all the time working on the assembly line. Might even been a new hire turned loose.
as mentioned in an earlier post, I have a Hemi that it's vin is mis-stamped
thanks for the pictures and story Bill 
Posted By: 72N96RR
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 07/27/14 02:23 AM
Quote:
Having worked for a number of years in a "factory" type of setting with "factory" type of workers most (but not all) of them are there for the paycheck only. Their mantra was "they don't pay me enough money to think" and "I don't work for the effen company, I work for the union." So if the line supervisor said something MUST be done a certain way some of the guys would NOT do it that way just to show they can't be ordered around (like stamping numbers in a straight line.)
My dad taught me to always do the job right, always do what the boss said in the way he said and to always give just a little more than what the boss expected. It was good advice then and it still is. I can just imagine what kind of work was produced on Mondays after a weekend of heavy drinking and toking on some Mary Jane!
Benji
You don't have a clue what goes on in a automotive factory and yer pops was a brown noser...
Posted By: 1KoolBee
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 07/27/14 07:39 AM
Quote:
Quote:
i seen a few 4 spds stamped,and then restamped, the same number,but kinda over the original one. like i said before,they didnt make these cars for us to restore 40 yrs later,so there is human error.
I have seen many 4-spds that have been double stamped by the factory, here is the #'s trans to my '71 GTX.
I agree, My '70 18 spline A833 trans' VIN was double stamped and the stamp job the factory did was hideous, almost unreadable. Looked like a drunken monkey was working the line that day. I'm pretty confident that it is original because I literally picked it up out of a guys yard back in the late 80's where it, and a 23 spline, had been laying for years, long before the restamp craze.
Posted By: cdp
Re: VIN Stamping: MYTH or FACT - 07/27/14 07:22 PM
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/5769032-hemi1.jpgBorrowed this pic from the lost and found.
Note the original stamp being way off.
The question I have, is:
Did final QC Dept. restamp, or was this a stamp someone else did outside the factory, but...technically, is right, as the original line stamp is somewhat visible.
Here's another interesting note.
My A12 RR is all #'s matching and I bought it off the original owner and still retain the original title. Ironically, the VIN plate itself, has an extra space in it as a factory error. Having owned many mopars, this is the 1st time i've seen this error before. Luckily, I documented it before the restoration started.
