Taking it to the next level? Wow!

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Dave, what you and Steve are presenting us with is a caliber of restoration that could only
been dreamed of in the past. The effort involved is unimaginable. The hours, the research and the money
are only part of it. I believe the toughest part is to maintain the drive to achieve the goal.
From the few pictures posted so far, the parts are stunning. Congratulations.
Jules

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Nicely stated, Jules

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I was told by a retired gentleman who worked on engine assembly that it was to match bore sizes to pistons.

Rick

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What I want to see is the MIND BLOWING stuff, stuff other restorers wouldn't even dream of doing.....

DETAILS baby....LETS SEE THE GOOD STUFF

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Here is a rather rare touch for a detail Alan. You mentioned details that are really not so rare in the mix of things. Care to guess what the paper taped to the inside of the trunk wheel well is?

Hint: Every car was shipped with one. They didn't always make it past dealership delivery
prep.

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You guys have any front fender underside pics of the wheel well area? I would appreciate it...

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Here is a rather rare touch for a detail Alan. You mentioned details that are really not so rare in the mix of things. Care to guess what the paper taped to the inside of the trunk wheel well is?

Hint: Every car was shipped with one. They didn't always make it past dealership delivery
prep.

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You got me there...I'm not sure ...I'm going to say some pre-delivery inspection form ...

I need to see the "before" picture proving the the location is accurate and the correct type of tape is being used. Not to mention the information on the sheet pertaining to your car is 100% legitimate.

All kidding aside...I'm fascinated by the comparision of the "before" and "after" shots more then anything. The time spent duplicating the squeeze-out of the firewall sealer is "mind blowing".

Before anybody can accuratly say something is wrong, they should see the "before" pictures. Every car is different.

I'm going to say the spray pattern in the front wheel well looks odd, and there's too much white in the front area (behind the seat) of the trunk. I say ODD not WRONG. But I'm convinced that any questions by an official judge will be answered by your extreme amount of proof in pictures GREAT JOB

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Hint: Every car was shipped with one. They didn't always make it past dealership delivery
prep.

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Dave,,,, a list of anything that was left in the trunk for the dealer to install upon delivery, i.e. hub caps, spoilers, etc?.. Wild guess..

Also, great item for detail and thanks for the shot of the front fender underside......

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**I'm not sure**

Alan, Come on now. You have gone from “I’m not sure” to assuming placement, correct tape, and legitimacy of your admitted unknown?! I thought you said wanted the “good Stuff”?!

**I'm going to say the spray pattern in the front wheel well looks odd**

That “odd” pattern is the dip line Alan. You know... that “rare detail” that you spelled out in an earlier post. I thought you would have been the first to recognize the format of it's appearance. The car entered the dip tank at about a 40-45 degree angle. That is the dark line you see. The lighter color behind it is the very first coat of light gray phosphate primer that was fogged in every crevice of the car at the beginning of the paint process. The rest is paint residue/over spray and undercoat.

**there's too much white in the front area (behind the seat) of the trunk. **

Based on?

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Here is a rather rare touch for a detail Alan. You mentioned details that are really not so rare in the mix of things. Care to guess what the paper taped to the inside of the trunk wheel well is?

Hint: Every car was shipped with one. They didn't always make it past dealership delivery
prep.

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pick me!!!!....pick me!!

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You're it! Where did you get yours from Mr. T? I was made aware of this Vehicle Traveler form from David Wise a few years ago. He was one of the very first guys to call me and help out with many of the items we offer in our product lines. He is a great guy and a wealth of knowledge and information, as I am sure many of you already know. A huge thanks to Big Dave for all of his input and involvement with the hobby!!!

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Yes Troy! Correct you are. Now lets see if you can answer this question:

Where did yours come from?

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Dave, Yours is obviously the Tigers vs. Indians box score from the privious night. Indians won!!

Troy's pic is from the following season.

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Yes Troy! Correct you are. Now lets see if you can answer this question:

Where did yours come from?

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WoooHoooo !!!!! I got it....

Which car? I have three...........



But, I'll venture to say it came from the Vehicle Travel Form Dept.?

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Alan

The dip line inside the cars has been done.

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Gosh !!! I wish I had the dinero to do my cars like this...... I'll make due.

All you guys rock................

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OK Dave... Welllllll, what's the Vehicle Traveler form? Is that the form in question in the pictures? America's dying to know here !!!! Did I get it right about the "items/inventory" associated with the car in the trunk upon delivery?.....

Troy

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It tracked problems.

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Soooo, I was wrong with my answer?

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You're it! Where did you get yours from Mr. T? ...

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G60-15 polyglass on a black rim. So mid to late 71-Body in FC7.

99% it's Steve Juliano's 71 Hemi Charger survivor. I think I watched this picture being taken.

Edit...Make that 100% sure. I took that picture myself. There's so much sensory overload at Steve's place you have to picture swap afterwards to see the things you missed.

Same awesome survivor showing there was a defined undercoating line/stencil on the front in certain places...

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So... please explain why a front glass stabilizer track guide would be in the trunk?

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Being that I didn't put it there I can't answer that question. I also wouldn't know why a doctor's appointment was written on a factory invoice I had seen but I am sure that was not a factory mandated procedure. If appears that someone ADDED that section you pictured of the vehicle traveler sheet. It certainly was not part of the original sheet. You also can't use one sample to justify every one. I have seen quite a few that had only the top row of processed information filled in. Look at the sample that was said to be Steve Julianos. Nothing but the top row of information is filled out. (It is identical to the top row of a build sheet.) Why would they put a "problem" form with the car if there were no problems to be listed on the sheet? These forms were not considered vague with regards to their specified function. Chrysler was very precise with the paperwork and the intent of their purposes.

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99% it's Steve Juliano's 71 Hemi Charger survivor. I think I watched this picture being taken.

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Are you sure that Steven's car is a survivor? (Please, just ignore my joking sarcasm!) I noticed there is about the same amount of paint on his rear seat braces as there are on my white Challenger. I was informed that we applied the paint there too heavy! How is it that my "details" are the only ones that seem to be scrutinized while everyone else's (exact same features) go unnoticed?

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You also can't use one sample to justify every one.

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original.

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Those maroon pictures show the "lack of paint" I was referring to, while the purple car shows (somewhat) the oppisite.
Proof is in the pudding. The amount of white paint on the Challeger should only duplicate the amount of paint that was found on the Challenger in the before shots....

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I have noticed that there is a reoccurring theme that is taking place with one particular person on this thread. It is not how “correct” the car is but how perfectly we have come to duplicating the original characteristics. I am confident that we have accomplished that objective with about 95-96% accuracy. My analogy of “signing your own name the exact same way twice” is a good example of just how hard it is to duplicate anything exactly. This is even more evident when you try to recreate someone else’s spray paint patterns while having to manipulate the exact amount of paint that is coming out of the gun. There are others who have posted pictures of their work and received instant praise for the appearance and what was accomplished. Rightfully so! With my car (and this person) pictures that we post are followed by a demand for pictorial proof so credibility can be established. Double standards certainly seem to be the norm for some but keep in mind that everything we have done to this Challenger has been thought thru completely. I can assure that certain “individual” that we did not simply overlook the correct spray pattern of the entire trunk area. The car is correct for what it represents. It is hard enough to do an OE level restoration on a vehicle. Compound that difficulty with having to match about 10,000 original characteristics as closely as possible! Even if it the car does not walk it’s own footprint with 100% exacting detail, it is still WELL within the range of being a factory appearing vehicle. Having to prove every little aspect to someone who is just hoping for some kind of mistake or hiccup was not the intent of this thread.
Please correct me if I am wrong Mr. Blues Cuda.....Scott.

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Incredible job on this one. Regarding the exact details and spray patterns, it is unlikely two cars ever came from the factory exactly the same in regards to paint, undercoating, overspray, spray patterns etc. As a design Engineer in the Automotive world today I can tell you that details, inspections marks, patterns etc. change on a daily and monthly basis and from operator to operator. If we have a specific defect or quality issue we are tracking we may add an inspection mark to the product, but that mark may only last a month, if someone restores the car 30 years from now which will be correct? Of course both will be, but which will be accepted, probably the one discovered first. There is also a huge difference from first to second shift in terms of technique, quality at times, defect rates, inspection marks etc. most of this can be contributed to experienced operators are on first while less experienced and new hires are on second and third, also first has the full management, technical and Engineering staff in the plant while the off-shifts have a skeletal staff. With todays technology, vision system inspections and PLC controlled and Robotic process we still have variations, when our Mopars were built we had much more human influence on the process which opens the door for differences in detail.

The best way to determine correct features on a particular model is to study several original and survivor cars and find a common theme and not take one nice car and determine that every 71 Cuda (for example) was built exactly like this, regardless of who was on the line, what month or suppliers were involved. If we start down the road that every Cuda has this detail, every Challenger that and every 69 Road Runner must be like this, then we will turn into the Bloomington Corvette crowd and have cookie cutter restorations rather than exact restorations of the actual car being restored. On cars that are so far gone that the original details are lost, then it is time to study several originals, take note of the details, create a common theme and pattern by averaging the details of the study group and build your car accordingly with the research and photos to back it up.

The car in this picture is an excellent representation of the cars on the lot when new, keep up the great work.

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Dave, Fantastic job on the car!

In an earlier post you claimed to not have used any reproduction parts. Does this mean you came up with an NOS battery? I'd like to see a picture of the baked bubbley primer residue you must have recreated on the battery tray.
Also, curious what type of paint you used.
Thanks!

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I also asked about the battery several posts ago, but there was no response. I know there are some originals around that could probably be "restored". I would also love to see a close up of both sides of the trunk mat.

Also as it pertains to the engine. Does the motor have the original pistons and bearings?? Does it have a nylon cam gear and link chain like the originals had. Does it use a rope rear main seal and a leather front damper hub seal?? Is it using an NOS(or original) cam and lifter set?? Let's get some details about the engine build for the gearheads like myself.

MB

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I have found NOS date specific batteries for my GM and Ford cars but have had one heck of a time trying to locate a correct Chrysler style. Does anyone have an opinion or information as to why they are so hard to find?
.

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Also as it pertains to the engine. Does the motor have the original pistons and bearings?? Does it have a nylon cam gear and link chain like the originals had. Does it use a rope rear main seal and a leather front damper hub seal?? Is it using an NOS(or original) cam and lifter set?? Let's get some details about the engine build for the gearheads like myself.

MB

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Great stuff.
What an amazing job. I wouldn't give a hoot about those guys that are ridin' you for some of the details. Keep posting pics and info for those of us who enjoy seeing the results of your efforts.

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Thanks for the input Rob! There is a very, very, very small segment that have a problem with what we are doing or (in actuality) the way we describe what we have accomplished. Ed Norton on the "Honeymooners" had a problem with being called a "sewer worker". He relabeled his position as "an underground engineer." Same exact job, but calling it something other than what it was made him feel better. To help those negative people who need to feel better about our project, let me go on record by saying:

*We have screwed up this project 98.9% and haven't come close to restoring a factory correct vehicle!

*All the features of the car look home made!

*The details fall far short of what we intended them to be!

*Many of the parts are reworked reproduction junk!

Maybe now EVERYONE can feel comfortable with the specifics regarding this thread. Lord knows classifying things for what they are really seem to offend some folks.

(Sorry to deviate from the post Rob....here are a few more pics.)

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not to pick ,but the heater hoses almost look TO GOOD

You can tell in the picture the OE 's were stamped / and look smeared as opposed the stenciled look on the repops shown

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You think it looks TO GOOD? Im stayin' out of it.

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not to pick ,but the heater hoses almost look TO GOOD

You can tell in the picture the OE 's were stamped / and look smeared as opposed the stenciled look on the repops shown

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I have to say, I agree. Don't get me wrong it looks good, but I wonder if you could smear it a little

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I think to fully get an idea of what is created, some imagination must be used. I am sure engine heat and years must take a toll on many original markings.

Ever see a tattoo on an old person?

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I never did see a good tatoo on a old person,but anyways does heat make the numbers move or up or down so that they are not in line any more,my engine must have got really hot because my VIN stamped on my trunk gutter is really crooked and smeared.

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Looks great, nice challenge guys.

Are paint runs going to be duplicated for instance on the heater box and stampings done with smears ect, ect. Decals crooked? I have taken a few original cars apart and it amazes me how rushed many of these procedures were done. I see perfect stampings and detail on many of these items on the top notch restos.

How are those items going to be tackled on this car guys, thanks? Keep up the good work.

Rick.

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This car is beautiful. I can really appreciate all the hard work that goes into a complete resto, and mine isn't an attempt to return to stock.
That be said I find myself thinking about a couple of items when reading through this string though. First, why try to "duplicate" mistakes on individual cars from the factory(ex paint runs)? They were mistakes. The ideal choice is NOT to have them. I don't see how that makes it more "correct". I can see easily the reasoning for all OE parts, but the other is baffling. Second, being employed at an OEM and seeing many cars built every day with mistakes on an average of approx. 25% that require some repair before leaving the factory, I find it interesting how many "experts" on this thread act like some defects are repeatable or absolute. Every model has some feature that engineers or assemblers would like another crack at but it isn't financially feasible during mass production. When repairing an individual car, why not try to avoid repeating it? Many part markings are results of checks necessary for quality, that may not have been recognized at start up, yet implemented later. I will add this note...what the public THINKS happened at the factory and for what reason...is rarely the complete truth. Reading threads on it provides quite a bit of humor, in some circumstances though.
Keep up the awesome work on the car guys. Looking forward to seeing it! If all the paint runs aren't exactly where they "should" be, I won't complain.

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It seems many of us have not done our homework to the same level concerning the drips on the bars. As we all know they were dipped in paint - leaving drip marks on the length of the bars - but how many of us took the time to make sure the drips were spaced like the original, and have the proper drips per inch?

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I have also been priviledged to see Mr. Juliano's awesome display and car collection, some truely beautiful examples of ultra rare Mopars!

One thing that has been in the back of my mind since looking at them is how in the heck did the underside of that purple car stay or get so clean? It looked nearly perfect and dirt/dust free when I looked at it. I have looked at allot of survior cars and never seen any even remotely close to that level of cleanliness, all had dirty undercoating, light haze of surface rust here and there as in the Barracuda example above, etc. Steve/Dave, any input on that?

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there is NOBODY perfect,well there was this one man who was and they hung him on a cross.Anyways I hope you dont mind if I do buy a few things off of you guys

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scott.....i always shy away from superlatives BUT there are 2 things i have no problem pontificating. one is that the 71 charger of mine is the best original unrestored hemicar i have ever seen. the other is that i have put together the worlds largest performance era sign collection on earth. more than chrsler corp, ford motor co, the smitsonian, and every mopar collectors collection combined. this is where i will end the superaltives in my life. theres not much else i am any good at.

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B.S. !!

You're a fantastic host.

Our club caravaned down for a tour on Steve's awesome collection. Everyone was shocked and awestruck at the contents of the collection. But everyone (guys and gals) yaked on the way home how great a host Steve was.

Steve could make a collection of thimbles interesting. And have his guest talking about it for hours on the trip home.

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i look fwd to seeing, touching, and smelling your car in person.

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Steven, I think I my be feeling a tinge of uneasiness or possibly a little jealousy!

(I'll try to call later today to get the details on the trip.)

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...next time you come down i'll get the charger off the ground and you will be happily surprised of its originality. it really is some kind of freak. i'm not much of a 71 charger fan but this one is a serious time capsule.

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Sounds great Steve, I'll definately take you up on that one! I hope you'll have most of a day to kill while I'm pouring over it.

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Now these are words coming from someone who will be competing in the same OE class as him so I'm not kissing anyones rear-I'm telling it like it is.

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And words comming from an ICCA OE Show judge to boot!

For anyone who don't know Paul, one thing you can rest assured, he knows his stuff!

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Dave and Steve

I applaud your adamant ambition and stunning arduous accomplishment in this masterpiece.
Your incredibly undaunted desire to assimilate this time capsule will predictably ensure your imminent prestige among your peers and will be unrivaled for some time by even the most resolute learners..........

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After seeing Daves proprietery process of decal reproduction I can say, without a doubt, they are perfect copies of originals he had on site. The computer allows and proves it, as does overlays.

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Thanks for the mention of the decals Paul!!! I am glad you made it back safely and the pleasure was all mine. I have received emails from my usual "friends" that have a problem with the adjectives I sometimes use to describe our products. "Exact duplicates' seem to bother some people even thought the descriptive is accurate. (is that one OK to use?) I could say that they are 98.9% accurate but I would only be lying against my own efforts. (Sorry Alan!) Since you made mention of the computer part of the process I thought it might be a good idea to show a bit of what you referred to. It is actually one of the same examples I showed you yesterday. One reason I say our decals are exact to the originals is because they basically ARE the originals made at this day in time. (The time portal works in both directions I guess.) The items you receive from ECS are EXACT duplicates of what came on your cars when they were new! Here is an abbreviated sample of a 1971 B Body trunk jacking decal and how the images are recreated. I actually scan an original and re-draw every single line and detail. My first one took over 100 hours some 11 years ago. EVERY decal we manufacture starts with this same process to guarantee authenticity to the "nth" degree. The top picture shows the original artwork and the reproduced lines. The lower illustration is without the original background.

Thanks again Paul for your visit.

Note: Click the attachment and the magnifying tool to get a good look.

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but what about the upper hose ?
this application should have the 2863257 upper hose. but by the looks of it, it has 2806186

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I had the pleasure of spending the afternoon with Richard Hiedbreder and looking at his collection of low mileage survivor cars yesterday. Dave Stuart and Steve also made the trip. Earlier in the day Dave was kind enough to give us a tour of the Chrysler training facility. (That is a story in and of itself.) Here are some photos that I took to document a couple of characteristics that probably would have been deductions by some judges at certain shows. Notice the original upper hoses (A/C cars) are the same as what we used on the Challenger project but have been considered suspect for the application. The other shows the plug that Paul J. had questioned on the car. We all agree that these cars had various differences and/or vendor suppliers. This certainly helps to solidify that realization.

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Dave,
all due respect. but the low mileage 1970 GTX would be extremely suspect - wrong plug wires, wrong radiator cap, added electronic ingition.and you can;t see enough in the challenger pic to make a determination. how about a pic of the hose(hoses) from the opposite side.

If you have it , whats the pt number called for on the buildsheet for the upper hose.
My parts book calls for 2863257 (used from 1969 thru 1971 on B+ E bodies with max cooling OR with A/C ) .which is shaped nothing like what you have shown.

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I would guess

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“I am starting to believe that ALL factory hoses had a printed stripe that ran the length of the hose and DID NOT have a part number or Chrysler logo.”

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YES! The two colors that I saw on the hoses were either white or blue. I took pictures of EVERY engine compartment (even different angles) of Richard's cars. Not a single one had part numbers or a Pentastar printed on them.

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Dave, that radiator hose stripe (in the photo I posted) is from a low mile survivor and here is another angle of it, note the part number near the radiator end

(Didn't mean to cut your quote short, apologies )

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what is that part number and is there a date code or a pentastar on it.

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Steve, don't know for sure but if you flip over the photo and were to make a "guess" (sorry Dave) this would be my shot at it from the photo

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In another post Bill you had mentioned that the print I stamped on my heater hoses looked "too good". Did you happen to notice that the two hoses you have featured do not even have the same stamping characters or setup? It appears that someone decided to add the Pentastar and “Rad End” verbiage.
Are these the hoses that you sell as "factory correct" versions?

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He just stated in his post "currently available" I think 95% of us would read that as not the best possible, could use improvement.

I thought Bill was offering a constructive comment and sort of a compliment on the quality. Not a negative dig on your fine products. It's all good.

Lets keep up this great flow and sharing of information.

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Heater hose. This number repeated along the entire length with a white stripe between the number stampings

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Hi Dave

Your car is looking great and I am looking for to the new advances with the parts it will generate.

1 thing which I notice, but was not 100% sure if I was correct was the water pump which is on your car looks like a standard 440HP pump. The one on the 20,000 mile survivor is the cone type body. Was there 2 different pump for the A/C cars?
Did the 383 have it own pump for A/C.

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Lets get this out of the way right now, I do NOT carry restamped radiator hoses, Badalson /Gibson are the only ones licensed to restamp radiator hoses

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Hi A12,
Maybe you can shed some light on this subject. Is the hose you pictured here an A/C car like it should be according to the parts book?

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Do you see the confusion that is starting to developed here? Chryslers own parts application book seems to be contradicting what came on their own cars. How can anyone be absolutely sure what is correct unless you were lucky enough to still have the original hose when you took possession of your car?

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I believe it has more to do with the print date of the parts information than a contradiction by Chrysler. I know for sometime the part number for the connecting rods for the '69(1/2) A12 440 was listed as the so called heavy duty "Six Pack Rods" but that's only because the information was printed and revised after the spring of '69 production. The '69 built A12 440's did not have "Six Pack Rods" and did have single bolt cams, plastic cam gear...... The steel H-wheel part number changed from what was on the production "addition and deletion list" and several other parts were superceded by improved or current available items by the '70 and '71 revised parts information.

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I will go ahead and start this exercise. Here is another "incorrect hosed" A/C car, smack in the middle of being built!

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That's a cool pic. Thanks for posting it.

Your car is awesome and there's not a member here that would not be proud to call it their own.

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The GTX hose appears smooth while the Challenger hose appears as we would textured slightly. I would guess either two different hose suppliers or the GTX is not original.
Why would the correct hose be in question if it's marked on the BCS?

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I will go ahead and start this exercise. Here is another "incorrect hosed" A/C car, smack in the middle of being built!

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I will see what I can find out tomorrow.

Bill Rolik

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Sorry Bill! You responded while I was typing.

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(Mine is at the office so I don’t have access to it right now

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Build sheets were always perfect!

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I have to disagree. Check some of the broadcast sheet error examples at this link;

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