Body Shop Resto shop owners need some advice

Hi All,
I need some advice on how to proceed , or navigate through a situation I have found myself in. We own a 65 Bel 2 convertible . We have had it for 25 years or so . Bought as a fixer upper and did just that. Its a great looking , great driving , driver . A month or so ago a tree fell on the car across the 1/4s and deck lid, and all needs to be replaced. Fairly heavy damage . Heavy enough where I'm sure it needs some time on a frame machine.

The car is well insured for stated value . This is not a hagerty policy but a reputable well known Insurer none the less. They sent an "adjuster" over to look at and estimate it. He walked in took 3 pics and put together an unrealistically low estimate . Such as 1/4 panels @ $750 each , labor @ $52 per hour , no time on a frame machine ect. . Granted he stated the cost are subject to change . It just didnt make sense to me why they wasted the money to pay this guy ? Since he came up with this estimate they are calling me daily wanting to settle ($5800.00 ) . At this point I have stopped taking their calls. But thats not a solution

The dilemma's are :

No regular body shops are interested , as I would have expected . I have called 4 restoration shops within reasonable distance. All of these shops are large and well staffed , well equipped . What scares me about them is the attitude I'm sensing . I guess I would describe it as arrogant and I feel like they really aren't interested . The comments have been things like "of course we can help but we are booked out 6-8 months and not sure when we can look at it . Or one guy offered to estimate it but he needed the car for 3 days and estimates the estimate might cost $500.00. Is it because it involves collision work and they are afraid of it?

I had one guy that was nice enough to come look at it . He is a one man band , older gent that has been around for a long time . He spent about an hour looking it over and talking ideas with me . When I showed him the estimate he became kind of irritated and maybe discouraged at the thought of having to deal with an insurance co and adjusters. I think he may have had enough of that when he owned a collision shop . I'm waiting for his estimate .

Maybe I should pay someone to estimate it ?

I guess to boil it down maybe I'm feeling like the big shops may be overkill for this car ? But in the same respect I didnt want to just get one estimate and opinion on how to fix it. I'm rambling now , sorry.

Thought I was looking for advice but maybe just needing to vent and see what comes back.

Thanks for reading

Here the small staff shops that do old cars are not going to be able to do any frame straightening or alignment work underneath the car as they have no such tools. Need a regular body shop to do that, but then those shops are not going to want anything to do with replacing the rear sheetmetal on an old car and repaint it so I suspect this may mean taking the car to two different shops (at least if you lived here that is what you'd be up against).

$52 an hour sounds cheap. Even the addicts/drunks/felons posing as hot rod builders working out of their garage here charge more than that.

The one man guy may be what you want if you can pay him what he needs to do it. Always advise making a trip to see inside their shop if you can. Projects covered is dust and trash cans full of beer cans are a good sign the guy won't get it done.

Get it to a frame shop before anything else to verify what you have to work with.

Have a local Mopar club or someone who knows people? There are painters/body guys here who do super work and they are not in the phone book or have a website or anything. You have to find them by digging/asking around.

I would not pay for an estimate.

If the vibe is not there then wait and pass until the right guy shows up. Someone who is not super interested is not going to do a good job no matter what the $$$ is.

First off you need to get your insurance problem solved. If your carrier is lowballing you, and it sounds like they are, get this squared away before you do anything else. Then it depends on how much of a hurry you are in. It's like anything, you want it done right now, you will pay top dollar. If you are patient and beat the bushes I'm sure you'll find people who can do it for you to your satisfaction. But I agree with what has been said, this is going to require multiple shops, at least a frame shop and a body shop as a minimum.

Yes I agree with both of you . Thank you

I would get a bid from the most thorough shop who you think would do it right that way you can get the proper amount of money to get it fixed. Then you can go shopping for another place to do it, or wait for the shop that gave you the best estimate to fix it. You have to be patient and stand your ground or you'll get taken advantage of by not getting enough money to fix it and/or getting stuck with a shop that does crappy work.

I think part of the trouble that you face is dealing with the "insurance company". Most of those restoration shops are going to be charging more than what the insurance will or would pay a normal body shop in an hourly rate. Reality is insurance companies some how basically dictate what they will pay a shop hourly and unless the shop agrees to work with them, the customer would be out the difference. Most restoration shops will charge what ever their posted rate is per hour, per person for what ever amount of time they invest in your vehicle.
I am guessing that is the reason the one shop mentions the idea of charging for a good estimate. Most of these insurance companies pay a third party independent appraisal person or company to send someone out and all they care about is getting the original estimate written so they can collect for that. Insurance companies know that most claims will have a supplement , but all of that will have to be proven and sent into them with pictures and emails as the work progresses. All of that takes time to do so it will take a shop either willing to do those things, or you can try to get a couple good estimates to begin with and see if they will agree to pay those. It really sucks that this is the way things go but working in a bodyshop for 20 years gives me some experience with this. Reality is they, the "insurance companies" place all of this responsibility on the shop to do today and it really is a pain.
Matt

Matt thanks for the experienced insight . Pretty much what I was thinking .

The guy who wrote the estimate...is he an employee of the insurance company, or is he an independent adjuster they hired?

Also depending on what shape the paint is in, color ect you may be looking at a whole repaint so it looks correct. Paint is very expensive these days - like eye opening expensive if you have not been in a paint store recently.

Insurance doesn't owe to repaint the whole car if the paint is in bad shape, so he'd be on the hook for the cost if he wanted that done.

$52/hour is about average nationally for collision work. A resto shop normally charges higher rates, but they also normally bill straight time, not flat rate like most collision shops do.

Matt's comments are spot on, and that's coming from someone on the other side of the collision repair industry.

I know they won't pay for a whole repaint, but it may or may not be needed depending on the rest of the car. I know I would not want a car that looked like was wearing two paint jobs down the middle.

There are guys here who paint old cars out of their garages that charge min. 65-70 hr and up. If you want an old car fully repainted this is where many end up unless you can do it yourself. It's illegal to do paint work on a residential zoned property, and without a real paint booth with filters ect., but when real body shops tell people no we don't do full repaints on old cars then these questionable garage type of businesses are bound to sprout up to fill the void.

I have no idea what a real body shop charges. I figured it would be a lot more than Joe Smoe working working from a single car garage a many of the body shops here have very nice facilities.

He is an independent “adjuster” but I don’t think he is an adjuster at all . He works for an appraisal co..

Exactly. Resto shops are $125.00 per and only seem to work by the hour . It seems they provide quotes at a fee and the quote means nothing. Not binding at all , just a guesstimate.

And the paint is perfect, it’s patriot blue and easily matched.

I don't know if you are still looking at other shops, and I don't know what part of CT you are in, but F&R Body Shop in Johnsonville NY might be an option. I have known Frank Berard forever, and he always did my work for me when I lived in CT. He is a collision shop, race car fabricator and custom car builder. Might not hurt to give him a call.

http://www.fandrbodyshop.com/

It's interesting that he's an independent, yet underwrote the estimate. Independent's get paid for writing the estimate, and that's it. If there's a supplement, they have to take care of it on their own dime. Usually, it's "write it high and let it fly" with an Independent.

That said, he likely wrote it at $52/hour because you don't know where you're getting the car fixed. If he's someone who regularly works for a collector company, he knows that a resto shop will charge higher rates, and he'll make the adjustment once the car is in the shop. Collector companies don't stay in business by arguing with their customers' repair shops. Pick a resto shop with a reputation for quality, and get the ball rolling. You're not going to get collision repair timeliness with a resto shop. Resto shops aren't production shops.

Thanks again for the advice

Thanks will check it out

I pretty much just went through the same ordeal as you.... if not worse. I've been looking on and off since 2013 to have my AMC Gremlin done. I also live in British Columbia, a province not exactly well-known for good body shops. Most places in this province will only deal with ICBC (our provincially run insurance corporation) because they get to bill 10x to ICBC what they could to a regular customer. ICBC of course, just passes those savings on to the customer.... so we have some of the highest insurance rates in the industrialized world. What fun!

So, finding a "boutique" body shop is near impossible. I bet you, before I found Pacific Muscle Cars, I must've phoned a dozen places in BC and even contacted Cold War Motors in Alberta! Everybody is either booked 3-4 years in advance, won't touch the car because there's no reproduction sheet metal, laughed at me because they don't think a Gremlin is "worthy" of being restored.... one even laughed at me saying no *bleep* ing chance and hung up.

So, if you're getting a bad vibe right off the bat.... avoid the place.

When I finally found Pacific Muscle Cars, the owner actually took me seriously. While he's no AMC guy, I think he understands that everybody likes something different. Just because he may not be hip to it, doesn't mean it's not worthy. He actually thought of it as a challenge as he'd never done an AMC before! Anyway, I got a really good feeling over emails, phone convo's.... he seemed to ask all the right questions and when I had a question, he'd have an answer that put me at ease. I was even able to talk him OUT of going base/clear and using single stage.

When we delivered the car, I took a knowledgeable buddy with me and he got the same impression too. Yes, new shop; yes, younger crew, but seemed to all be on the right setting. Their shop was CLINICALLY clean. Like, seriously, I'd seen dirtier hospitals! They set time aside every month to dung out the shop and I think that's pretty important too.

Long story short, turn-around for my little Grem was 60 days and it looks marvellous in pictures. Had we not had truck issues today, the car would've been home today. Another friend of mine was gracious enough to loan me his insane souped-up 1-ton Dodge and 20+ foot equipment trailer to go pick up my little pimple of a Gremlin er.... well, later today. I got six hours of sleep in the last 48.... that's enough, right?

Have your insurance company total it and pay you the stated value.................find another car. Or buy the car back for salvage and use the stated value $$$ to have it repaired like you want...........................just throwing that out there to see if any of that would even stick What do you think Mike?

Mike

He doesn't decide that. It's not as though the customer says "I want it totaled," and the insurance company says, "Oh, OK." If the insurance company totals it, I think either of those are potentially good ideas.

Now, what if they can't find quarters? If they can't fix the car for a reason like that, (as opposed to cost or damage severity), then there's a possible opening to be able to argue that since the car can't be fixed, it is a total loss.

Have a lawyer contact them. I had a similar situation years ago and when my lawyer wrote them a letter it was straightened out fast!!

The car's not even in a shop yet. Hell, he hasn't even chosen a shop. There's not even an estimate from a shop to compare to the insurance company estimate. What will a letter from a lawyer do right now? And why would you waste money on a lawyer to write such a letter right now? It's not an injury claim. They aren't taking a property damage or comp/collision loss case on contingency. You have to pay the man to get the man to write the letter

This will never get to the point of needing a letter from a lawyer. That happens so rarely it's not worth discussing until it actually happens. In 20+ years of handling auto claims, I talked to/received a letter from an attorney maybe 10 times, probably less. That's out of anywhere from 18k-20k claims I was involved in.

Have the lawyer contact the insurance company! I never said the shop. Have him explain they are out of touch with classic car values. Let a professional handle this.

I didn't say you said to have the attorney contact the shop. And the value of the car is not in question. There's nothing to discuss until the car is at the shop of the vehicle owner's choosing. The appraiser wrote an estimate. It's just that, an estimate. At no point did the appraiser or insurance company say "this is all we are paying."

Got the estimate from the one man resto shop . It’s more than 3 times what “appraiser / adjuster “ was and about 40 detailed line items. Will be submitting it today .
Stay tuned

Perfect.

What they'll likely tell you is to schedule the repairs, and then once the car is there and some initial disassembly is done, they'll send the appraiser back out to document the additional damages and write a supplement to his original estimate. Happens all of the time, shouldn't be any issues at all.

Thanks . Appreciate the input

I went thru a scenario very similar to this when a friend of mine was hit going thru an intersection when a young kid ran a red light and hit him just behind the driver side door. He was having a bad time dealing with kids insurance company with the claim so he asked if my shop (as the repair shop) would handle the situation with the other drivers insurance company which I did. The insurance company searched high and low for a convertible quarter panel for his car and only could find the converted hard top quarters that are available from Ken Hopperdietzel which are really nice, problem is, the kid hit a real 440-6bbl four speed shaker convertible Cuda that deserves original parts . After a little negotiation, the insurance company realized how high the claim could have gone if he would have sued for "diminished value", the claimed was settled at more than 5 times the original estimate.

I am an independent auto appraiser that has worked both on behalf of insurance companies and consumers. Couple things.

Initial estimate means nothing. Labor rates written are also meaningless at this point as this is restorartion work and not regular collision work.

You need to pick the shop you want to do the repairs. If they have a 6 month back log, then so be it. Once they get the car into the shop if they need additional time/money/parts they will supplement the ins co's original appraisal.

If you have any other questions feel free to PM me and we can chat.

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Hey thanks for this . And I will if need be.
Waiting on response from insurance co now.

Hope this works out for you. Some good opinion here. I would only offer that a "dirty shop" should not necessarily be a no-go item. The 30yr mopar body guy that did my 70 vert worked out of a home shop and, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being spotless, was a 2-3. My vert needed both quarters, left wheelhouse, dutchman, fairly major surgery. During our discussion about the work, I mentioned his shop "condition". He giggled a bit, said he spends more time on the work than cleaning the shop. I'm like many, prefer a clean working space, but not everyone does. I got good vibs (impt) from him and was able to see another similar project almost finished. The day the RR was picked up, it was spectacular, but his shop was still a 2-3.

Funny but thats where I am . I think I have found the right guy for this , and insurance co has sent me the money and agreed they will accept supplements up to the full agreed value . So went to check out his shop and was a little disappointed . Not as organized as I had hoped . Talked to some customers that were really positive about him so going to go with my gut and take a chance.
Thanks All