So how do 4 speed folks handle a clutch for a points car?

Wonder how folks handle clutches for a restoration of a points type car. Been going through some old ones and interesting research; but hardly any information out there other than type.

Was wondering if anyone has examples of original OEM Assembly line clutch for hemi's and 70 383 and hemi scalloped? Looking for the specific B&B model number on the 70 cars, and pictures of housing.

Someone is going to pull the inspection cover off to look at the clutch?!

but.... but.... that'll chip / scratch the paint ! lol

So only visible items count in the points? I thought pictures were required along with documentation. Regardless I am interested in what OEM originals looked like along with the stampings.

Which specific show judging are you aiming at?

I was thinking this was about some aspect of ignition points and a manual transmission car.

Well were are in the restoration section not general section.

Obviously some critics have to jump in despite no interest or actual knowledge.

To answer the question:

Part curiosity, folks obsess about bolts, washers, numbers, etc... on a judged car. Accurate reproduction parts with stampings and markings are repopped to support the restoration. Cottage industries to rebuild carbs, alternators, all to judged standards exist. Well, just like a carter carb has a stamped part number to match, so do the clutches housing. Granted internal parts may wear and be replaced. And Mopar sold the OEM parts. So....

Practically, I have been restoring parts for my hemi build, and using originals parts. I have Rebuilt fuel pump, distributor, water pump, alternator, carbs, PS, etc... I am now at the back end. Have orig FW to resurface and ring. Have a stack of clutches I have been taking apart and examining.

I have a pair of super stock 10.5 clutches and a bunch of other 11", 10.5. and 11" scalloped clutches. I was hoping someone had an original hemi clutch pre 70, and 70. They are unique in construction, and wanted to confirm some info, and markings.

A lot of the clutches I have examined, are rebuild and such and I think before the current manufactures got started, they were using core to reman, or rebuild as new.

Clutches are not that hard, and you can actually build one to your specification, or at least make it to the specific spec of your model. Which is what I intend to do. No different then checking and freshening up your heads. From what I seen, no one actually makes a hemi clutch to the original specs.

So is there some one out there that actually knows clutches, or kept an original hemi clutch?

Wow...didn’t mean to upset you....LOL!

Stand back and read what you’re asking. What show do you take the car to then take the whole thing apart to spread out on gigantic white sheets to inspect every part? Might as well find some 70 air for the tires, 70 gas, oil and grease. How about the right gears, u-joints, engine bearings, brake shoes, etc, where does it stop?! I don’t have a problem with what’s SEEN (the obvious) but the unseen?

You did not. Wasn't you.

Look, you have nothing to add, and seem lost in this section. You ask some of the simplest questions on your hemi build that you could easily search yourself. Read what I said. I don't want to argue the merits of gold standard cars with you. Going after gold is not my point. I explained my question. Do you know the difference of an OEM hemi clutch, could you identify one at a swap meet? If so enlighten, if not why get involved.

I did quite a bit of research on my build and also talked to an OE judge but internal wear parts never came up an a judged item. If it makes you feel good go for it but its almost like asking what brand piston rings were used. I can't help on the disc mine had an aftermarket in it.

Yes I know what they look like. Chase your dreams.

Anyways...Back to the question at hand...
Is your greater question about items on a judged show car that are hidden from normal view...or is specifically about Clutch/Flywheels?
If you are referring to judging a car..at any show the judges only have a certain amount of time and accessibility.
The old joke "it even original air in the tires"...who would ever know or tell or be able to judge that.
There will always be some items that are not going to be checked by a judge. Anyone's objective working on a car is to address as much as reasonable or available, if that is your focus.

They DO NOT disassemble anything to ck internal pieces of any kind.


Now, as to whats the original stuff look like. I'm afraid I cant answer that. Its been far far to long since Ive looked that close to an OE clutch or pressure plate

Other than the pressure plate is a 3 finger borg and beck style I believe

Not about judging at all. Only curiosity on that front for me. But specifically I am looking for any pictures or added info on the Hemi clutches. Hemi clutches unique for mopar, and Borg and Beck had MOPAR specific model number stamped on housing, at least through 69. Chrysler changed format in 70, but model number may still have applied. 4 digit stamp similar to how a Carter carb has a stamp on the body. So that is the info I am after.

As far as judging curiosity... it is not at a car show level, rather going for a national level event. Likes of a Bloomington gold in the corvette world. Lot of guy's restore cars as faithfully as they can and continue to chase items even after a car is done.

They do use OEM NOS brake pads and rotors, they chase correct U joints, and date coded straps. Hose, belts, you name it. So what do they do about a clutch if a 4 speed. Almost no post that I can find, and it is a part number stamped item; and actually easily rebuildable.

So you are anal...so what. Sometimes you pursue minutia just for the pleasure of chasing it.

IIRC they are a three finger B&B. They are not a Long style or a diaphragm. When you ask about pictures of the housing, are you speaking of the clutch pressure plate itself or the bellhousing? The bell is the common 513 bell housing.

Mopar used both 11.0 and 10.5 inch diameter clutches in the street hemi cars, it depends on which year and maybe even which factory it was assemble in and what date.
I've taken original hemi motors apart that had the 11.0 inch clutch on the 170 tooth flywheels with the direct drive starters, same on later Hemi motors that had the 143 tooth flywheel for the 11.0 inch clutches with the gear reduction starters, I had one 1970 street Hemi motor that had a 130 tooth flywheel with a 10.95 inch clutch but I'm going to say that was probably not stock
I'm sure Mopar had more than one vendor making clutches for them over the five years on street hemi production cars

Earlier in the post I thought I explained better what I was after. It is the Clutch pressure plate housing. Stamped metal that has a model number stamp. Yes these were Bork and Beck (Became Borg Warner) bought up by BWD clutches.

Cab, you have some mistakes. First there where no stock 143 took hemi 8 bolt flywheels. The 64, 65 and 68 Super Stock hemis used the 10.5" clutch and 130t flywheel (11 5/8" bolt pattern). 66-69 street hemis used the 172 tooth and 11" clutch with large bolt pattern (12 5/8"). In 70 Mopar started the consolidation and the 383/440/426 moved to the 130t flywheel with small clutch bolt pattern but used a 11" scalloped clutch that had the 11 5/8 bolt pattern. Mopar performance had a 10.5" SS Pro Stock pp and one 11" Scalloped plate for the rest. Explained how you could back fit it to SB 10.5" motors.

50 through mid 60 service manuals give you the B&B Clutch model number, and all the characteristic of the clutch and disc. Springs, centrifugal rollers etc.... Starting later in the 60 through 69 you got model number, # springs and color, but have to back track through the part numbers to figure out pressure of springs based on the color. In the 70 service manual they move to a full mopar part number but still showed spring color and number.

From my research, there was a consolidation that occurred both in manufactures (few) and the remanufacture industry (becoming larger). Even mopar consolidated the clutch. In 70 there were 3 separate pressure plates... one for the 383HP, 440, 426H. That went to one in the mopar performance catalog. BWD by the late 80s, maybe even earlier did the same. Not only that, but they did not sell a new manufactured disc or pressure plate for the 383/440/Hemi. Your only option was a remanufactured clutch. And this is Borg Warner the OEM manufacturer. Or you want to one of the performance clutch manufactures like weber.

So I am trying to determine what model number stamp was on original OEM clutches in 1970 model year. Did the 11" Hemi and the 11" Scalloped hemi have the same unique characteristic on the pressure plate housing? What was unique about hemi is it used thicker gauge steel for the housing and levers. The eyebolts where the larger 7/16" though I am sure other clutches had this too by late 60s, Hemi only used 3 centrifugal rollers, not 6 like the 383 and 440. Additionally, the housing had a reinforcement plate rivet to the housing where the roller would engage, and it had spring shim reinforcement that locked in the pressure plate for the roller to move on, just like the 10.5" hemi SS clutch.

Here are some pictures of a standard versus SS 10.5" clutch

Looking at the photos and reading your description, there is more to this than just correct PN's. I've never seen mention of the riveted wear tracks for the rollers before. Good thing I never throw anything away. I'll have to go through my stash this summer and see what I have. Good job.

Yes there is. Here are 2 more pics. Looking at the cover you can see the deformation that happens from the roller as they slam the cover and add additional #850 of force. The other picture is of rollers and the shim that sits in the PP roller channel on the hemi clutches. The rollers are pressed together. They can get corroded and stuck. I used a 16mm socket that allows the outer wheel to fit in, but catches the inner roller which is larger. I can press them apart in a vice to clean. Looking at the plates from previous pictures, I have seen the roller channel on the plate deform also and groove. Probably from a stuck roller. So I believe the hemi had these added pieces for strength, but also free movement of the rollers for shifting on the drag strip. Reason hemi only had 3 vice 6. The other issue is the pressure plate was also made of a better material and to make it more explosion proof. Similar to a forged versus cast crank. The plates can be rung, just like a crank.

I have taken apart about a dozen clutch's in the last two weeks. OEM B&B, reman B&B, Hays, Weber, and a Shieffer. The ability to compare side my side, the various parts is insightful, and I document. Also helped explain why a Hays had borg and beck parts. I think in the early day they were not a true manufacturer, rather they bought parts form Borg Warner and assembled them, or were doing the remanufacturing business. Some covers are clear B&B with patent info, and made in chicago. Other covers have less info, and then much newer clutches have none of the original B&B data on them. So I think as Borg Warner moved on, Hays, Weber, Schiefer and other moved into manufacturing to where we are now with Hays, Mcleod, Ram.

The other thing to clear up is the 11" large pattern pressure plate is the exact same as used in the 11" scalloped. I have seen the same Casting part number in both types. They are full 11" dia with the rectangular notch at bolt holes. What is different is the true 11" scalloped used a 10.95" clutch disc. That extra .50" clearance along with the special bolts is what kept the disc from catching the cover. The 10.5" and 11" pressure plate have the same lug and spring boss locations. So that you could actually install a 10.5" pressure plate into the 11" or 11" scalloped housing and have everything line up and work.

I have already had two of the best pressure plates resurfaced. So the plan is to rebuild the best housing to the original specs for use on my motor. Ideally I would like to find an 11" and 11" scalloped hemi housing. I do believe I have 2 of the 11" scalloped housings but wanted to confirm the model number as 383 or 440. The model # I have is 1828.

I have a new mopar reman 1970 383 no roller plate here, also a known 440-6 plate 6 roller with a 5 spring disc. You are correct back in the 70s that the aftermarket scalloped were just stock mopar covers and plates. I took my hemi one to a local rebuilder, first words out of his mouth were, this is a clutch used for racing, no warranty when done. I no longer have that clutch. I have one old oddball 10.95 too, does not say Borg and beck as I recall, guy said it was D/C. I have a D/C
10.5 green cover, will see if that is thicker. Will get you some pics