Moparts

high level restorations

Posted By: LimeliteAero

high level restorations - 03/26/09 01:41 AM

for the guys doing premium restos and for the guys doing it themselves please ponder this.

Which do you prefer, The aged/yellowed look for the underhood plastics or the virgin white look?

I wish I was around these cars when they were new to have noticed this sort of thing.
Posted By: HPMike

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 01:46 AM

aged/yellowed
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 01:50 AM

Aged/Yellowed....Which BTW was what most of those items looked like when brand new.
Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 02:10 AM

Quote:

Aged/Yellowed....Which BTW was what most of those items looked like when brand new.



That's weird, that describes me.. Stinks getting old.


Troy
Posted By: MrNormsTA

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 02:40 AM

For the new resto, I like white. The yellow just doesn't look right with everything else, just my .

Rick.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 02:44 AM

Quote:

For the new resto, I like white. The yellow just doesn't look right with everything else, just my .

Rick.





The yellow actually DOES look "right" (as in OEM correct) it just not viewed be as being as "pretty" as some prefer things to be. When it comes to improving on what the factory did that's when people decide what thier priorities are, duplicating a truely factory OEM appearance, or trying to improve upon that look and making it fit thier personal preferences.
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 02:56 AM

Quote:

for the guys doing premium restos and for the guys doing it themselves please ponder this.

Which do you prefer, The aged/yellowed look for the underhood plastics or the virgin white look?

I wish I was around these cars when they were new to have noticed this sort of thing.



I hate to open this can of worms but injected molded plastics such as washer bottles, wire straps, etc…. were no more “yellow” than newspapers were when they were first printed. Before starting ECS I worked as a systems engineer for factory automation and robotic systems. One of my accounts was a company called RUSTIQUE ENTERPRISES in St. Charles, MO. They manufacture building components that incorporate plastic injected molded parts in their product lines. They had huge containers of pea sized plastic pellets (of various colors) that were used to form their siding materials.
I took an original 1969 Firebird washer bottle to my business contact (actually a good friend) and asked him how hard it would be to re-manufacture them. He gave me quite a lesson on bakelite and celluloid plastic materials. He said the type of plastic that was used to make these components tended to yellow and crack over time. That type of aging would be normal for the type of celluloid material that was used to make these “cheap” items. I have replacement GM washer bottles from 1986 that have turned yellow over the years. If you look at the replacement bottles manufactured by Kent Q., he has to add tan pigment to his bottles to get the desired “aged” look. By doing so, it totally changes the “bubbled/aerated” look of the natural clear plastic material. Take a look at an original bottle. It has tiny bubbles trapped inconsistently throughout the plastic. The “yellowed” reproduction bottles are dense and without the “correct” trapped molded bubbles, due to the addition of tan coloring in the plastic. Check it out and you can see the differences for yourself. Original plastic components were not “yellow” when they were first formed and injected. Time was the resulting factor for that particular feature and look!
Posted By: MrNormsTA

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 03:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

for the guys doing premium restos and for the guys doing it themselves please ponder this.

Which do you prefer, The aged/yellowed look for the underhood plastics or the virgin white look?

I wish I was around these cars when they were new to have noticed this sort of thing.



I hate to open this can of worms but injected molded plastics such as washer bottles, wire straps, etc…. were no more “yellow” than newspapers were when they were first printed. Before starting ECS I worked as a systems engineer for factory automation and robotic systems. One of my accounts was a company called RUSTIQUE ENTERPRISES in St. Charles, MO. They manufacture building components that incorporate plastic injected molded parts in their product lines. They had huge containers of pea sized plastic pellets (of various colors) that were used to form their siding materials.
I took an original 1969 Firebird washer bottle to my business contact (actually a good friend) and asked him how hard it would be to re-manufacture them. He gave me quite a lesson on bakelite and celluloid plastic materials. He said the type of plastic that was used to make these components tended to yellow and crack over time. That type of aging would be normal for the type of celluloid material that was used to make these “cheap” items. I have replacement GM washer bottles from 1986 that have turned yellow over the years. If you look at the replacement bottles manufactured by Kent Q., he has to add tan pigment to his bottles to get the desired “aged” look. By doing so, it totally changes the “bubbled/aerated” look of the natural clear plastic material. Take a look at an original bottle. It has tiny bubbles trapped inconsistently throughout the plastic. The “yellowed” reproduction bottles are dense and without the “correct” trapped molded bubbles, due to the addition of tan coloring in the plastic. Check it out and you can see the differences for yourself. Original plastic components were not “yellow” when they were first formed and injected. Time was the resulting factor for that particular feature and look!



Thanks for that info. That is kind of what I have heard. Frank Baldason recommended a white as well when I recently ordered some parts from him and asked him some questions. Guess it is just what kind of look you are after. New resto to me means "new" as delivered.

Rick.
Posted By: Paul Jacobs

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 03:17 AM

Yeah what Dave said is dead on -many NOS parts will be yellow merly from time. Initially the yellowed parts repod by QQE were meant to fill a gap and provide "survivor" cars something new that would compliment the rest of the car.
Posted By: BS27ROB

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 03:18 AM

Quote:

I hate to open this can of worms but injected molded plastics such as washer bottles, wire straps, etc…. were no more “yellow” than newspapers were when they were first printed. Before starting ECS I worked as a systems engineer for factory automation and robotic systems. One of my accounts was a company called RUSTIQUE ENTERPRISES in St. Charles, MO. They manufacture building components that incorporate plastic injected molded parts in their product lines. They had huge containers of pea sized plastic pellets (of various colors) that were used to form their siding materials.
I took an original 1969 Firebird washer bottle to my business contact (actually a good friend) and asked him how hard it would be to re-manufacture them. He gave me quite a lesson on bakelite and celluloid plastic materials. He said the type of plastic that was used to make these components tended to yellow and crack over time. That type of aging would be normal for the type of celluloid material that was used to make these “cheap” items. I have replacement GM washer bottles from 1986 that have turned yellow over the years. If you look at the replacement bottles manufactured by Kent Q., he has to add tan pigment to his bottles to get the desired “aged” look. By doing so, it totally changes the “bubbled/aerated” look of the natural clear plastic material. Take a look at an original bottle. It has tiny bubbles trapped inconsistently throughout the plastic. The “yellowed” reproduction bottles are dense and without the “correct” trapped molded bubbles, due to the addition of tan coloring in the plastic. Check it out and you can see the differences for yourself. Original plastic components were not “yellow” when they were first formed and injected. Time was the resulting factor for that particular feature and look!



Dave,

Can of worms aside, what is your answer to the original question? One of your goals on your latest projects is to have the fewest repro parts possible, so which do you choose, the original which in the best case will still be yellowed somewhat, or the repro for the same look as when new? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, I'm just curious which way you see it.

Thanks Cy
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 03:26 AM

Quote:

New resto to me means "new" as delivered.
Rick.



That has been a big problem in the past with the way things have been translated concerning survivors. These cars may have exhibited flaws and imperfections but they were NEW flaws and imperfections. This holds true for any perishable item on a car. (Which includes just about every part.) From the day a vehicle is manufactured, it starts to oxidize and break down. I had to chuckle at a comment made by a forum member (in another thread) stating that this “stuff” is not a “science”. It most certainly is if you want to fully understand, interpret or discover the causes of why things happened after 40+ years of exposure. Restoring hundreds of pieces on a car will certainly mandate having to understand the “science“ behind the composite parts!
Posted By: MrNormsTA

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 03:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

New resto to me means "new" as delivered.
Rick.



That has been a big problem in the past with the way things have been translated concerning survivors. These cars may have exhibited flaws and imperfections but they were NEW flaws and imperfections. This holds true for any perishable item on a car. (Which includes just about every part.) From the day a vehicle is manufactured, it starts to oxidize and break down. I had to chuckle at a comment made by a forum member (in another thread) stating that this “stuff” is not a “science”. It most certainly is if you want to fully understand, interpret or discover the causes of why things happened after 40+ years of exposure. Restoring hundreds of pieces on a car will certainly mandate having to understand the “science“ behind the composite parts!



I really enjoy these posts and your input as well Dave. Let me rephrase, new to me, means my wiper bottle will be as delivered, I think, lol. The rest will be over restored by most standards. That is the beauty of each resto, so many choices to be made and for some doing the over the top factory delivered parts, the change will be taking place to the metal before the resto rolls out the door.

Rick.
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 03:39 AM

Quote:

One of your goals on your latest projects is to have the fewest repro parts possible, so which do you choose, the original which in the best case will still be yellowed somewhat, or the repro for the same look as when new?



I am using the original bottle. I spent HOURS using every method I could to remove/eliminate any exterior staining that might have existed. Since it is a chemical composite breakdown within the plastic, it was impossible to get a cleaner looking finish. The plastic oxidized (yellowed) beneath the top surface! The washer bottle on my A Body is VERY nice but has some signs of discoloring. At least it has done so consistently and not in a splotchy fashion!
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 03:45 AM

Quote:

One of your goals on your latest projects is to have the fewest repro parts possible...



Hello Cy!
We will have NO reproduction parts on the Valiant. I was even able to locate original gaskets for the rear end housing, axle shafts, etc....
Original to the car or NOS pieces. Absolutely No repo parts!
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 03:51 AM

Do you guys REALLY want to start debating the various physical properties of plastics?


Ready when you are

Trust me when I say this, MANY componants of our old cars had a yellow or off white cast to them fresh out of the molds that made them.
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 04:50 AM

Quote:

Do you guys REALLY want to start debating the various physical properties of plastics?

Ready when you are




There is no debate when discussing the physical properties of celluloid plastics. It is what it is! Here is a brief synopsis on the subject. (Pay special attention to the first sentence in the last paragraph.)

CELLULOSE BASED PLASTICS:

…..Hyatt was something of an industrial genius who understood what could be done with such a shapeable, or "plastic," material, and proceeded to design much of the basic industrial machinery needed to produce good-quality plastic materials in quantity. Since cellulose was the main constituent used in the synthesis of his new material, Hyatt named it "celluloid." It was introduced in 1863.…

Celluloid's real breakthrough products were waterproof shirt collars, cuffs, and the false shirt fronts known as "dickies," whose unmanageable nature later became a stock joke in silent-movie comedies. They didn't wilt and didn't stain easily, and Hyatt sold them by trainloads. Corsets made with celluloid stays also proved popular, since perspiration didn't rust the stays, as it would if they had been made of metal.

Celluloid proved extremely versatile in its fields of application, providing a cheap and attractive replacement for ivory, tortoise-shell, and bone. Traditional products that had used these materials were much easier to fabricate with plastics. Some of the items made with cellulose in the 19th century were beautifully designed and implemented. For example, celluloid combs made to tie up the long tresses of hair fashionable at the time are now jewel-like museum pieces. Such pretty trinkets were no longer only for the rich.

Celluloid could also be used in entirely new applications. Hyatt figured out how to fabricate the material in a strip format for movie film. By the year 1900, movie film was a major market for celluloid.

However, celluloid still tended to yellow and crack over time, and it had another, more dangerous defect: it burned easily and spectacularly, unsurprising given that mixtures of nitric acid and cellulose are also used to synthesize smokeless powder….
Posted By: LimeliteAero

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 05:03 AM

A lot of info here for sure, Im still undecided which way to go. I guess its a good thing I have some time to figure it out.

maybe Ill just buy FM's $1,000 NOS washer bottle that way I get a real date coded new part that has yellowed a lil bit.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 05:07 AM

You do that & I'll personally come out & stamp STUPID on your forehead...
Posted By: Mastershake340

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 05:09 AM

Do we know that these bottles are cellulose? Does anyone have any engineering drawings or automotive company material specs from back then that say that is what they used? Or else, has someone done a material analysis at a lab?
Cellulose doesn't seem like a very good material for an underhood environment, I would expect it to have been some sort of nylon.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 05:21 AM

Quote:

CELLULOSE BASED PLASTICS:



Dave.

Please list some common under hood Mopar items that are made from cellulose based plastics.
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 06:07 AM

Quote:

I would expect it to have been some sort of nylon.



I was told by the plant engineer at Rustique Enterprises that the GM washer bottle was a celluloid plastic material. If they are in fact a nylon based plastic; (Vydyne nylon 66 and 66/6 - PA66 and PA66/6 - engineering thermoplastic and extrusion-grade resin) they are translucent in color with 85-90% see thru clarity. Either way, they were not a yellowish color!

Google/copy the following information and click on the subject:

Polyamide, Nylon 6/ 66, Product Overview, Vydyne, polyamide product…


It shows a perfect picture of the "white" colored (not yellowed) pellets before they are molded. Plastics were not made to look old when they were newly formed. I imagine the next thing we will be debating is the degree of “brittleness” these should incorporate when they are reproduced. Isn't that the condition most of the original ones seem to be in....somewhat hard and brittle? Lets not just stop with one noticeable aged attribute.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 06:43 AM

Most underhood plastic (base) resins are common low cost thermoplastics such as Nylon, HDPE, LDPE, and Styrene based materials such as ABS, all have different characteristics (or better stated, "blends" of characteristics) engineered into them for the applications they were chosen for. The problem is that none of todays modern plastics are exactly like plastics (even identified by the same names) used 30 years ago, there are many new additives in todays blends of even the most basic polymers to add various features such as UV inhibtors that did not exist back then. Due to these changes over the years and the better refinement of the resins used in modern times the base resin colors have changed as well.

Having worked in the plastics industry for the past 20 years I can assure you that not all Nylons,PP,PE,LDPE,HDPE,or other typically natural/white/clear materials are "pure", MOST of them have a shade of color ranging from bluish to yellowish, and it can vary from one lot to the next depending on many things in how the raw pallets were extruded.

Back to my original statement, many original plastics used on Mopars were "yellowish" when brand new. To what degree is the most "correct" well that's a bit too subjective to comment on much further.
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 03:33 PM

Hi Scott,
I don't know about you but I have had four calls TODAY related to this topic. I was asked to "knock off" with the chemistry jargon so I won't go into anymore scientific lingo pertaining to plastics.
The plastics used by Chrysler were comprised of the cheapest materials they could purchase. They did not use a special "blend" to formulate a purposeful yellowing effect. Anyone familiar with neutral colored plastic knows that it turns yellow and brittle over time. Environmental conditions such as heat (engine compartment) will accelerate these changes. I have three NOS bottles that all exhibit varying degrees of yellowing. The photo below is an E Body example that displays various stages of discoloration throughout the SAME surface. I doubt those stages of "yellowing" were engineered into the color scheme of things. Get an NOS sample and notice the small air bubbles that are evident within the structure. Even the new "white" ones that are manufactured today have the same characteristics because they are basically the same plastic composite that was used 40 years ago. The "yellowish" aged version currently being reproduced has tan pigment added and the appearance is totally different than that of the captured air bubble look. The added color causes a denser looking type of plastic material. If you have both versions in your shop, check it out for yourself!
I also posted a picture of the carb decal I am making for you Scott. Would you like it to look faded and old like the original, or new like the one shown above it?
Just out of curiosity, do you restore/color your carburetors to look old and tarnished or new like they would have appeared 40 years ago?


Posted By: UCUDANT

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 03:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Do you guys REALLY want to start debating the various physical properties of plastics?

Ready when you are




There is no debate when discussing the physical properties of celluloid plastics. It is what it is! Here is a brief synopsis on the subject. (Pay special attention to the first sentence in the last paragraph.)

CELLULOSE BASED PLASTICS:

…..Hyatt was something of an industrial genius who understood what could be done with such a shapeable, or "plastic," material, and proceeded to design much of the basic industrial machinery needed to produce good-quality plastic materials in quantity. Since cellulose was the main constituent used in the synthesis of his new material, Hyatt named it "celluloid." It was introduced in 1863.…

Celluloid's real breakthrough products were waterproof shirt collars, cuffs, and the false shirt fronts known as "dickies," whose unmanageable nature later became a stock joke in silent-movie comedies. They didn't wilt and didn't stain easily, and Hyatt sold them by trainloads. Corsets made with celluloid stays also proved popular, since perspiration didn't rust the stays, as it would if they had been made of metal.

Celluloid proved extremely versatile in its fields of application, providing a cheap and attractive replacement for ivory, tortoise-shell, and bone. Traditional products that had used these materials were much easier to fabricate with plastics. Some of the items made with cellulose in the 19th century were beautifully designed and implemented. For example, celluloid combs made to tie up the long tresses of hair fashionable at the time are now jewel-like museum pieces. Such pretty trinkets were no longer only for the rich.

Celluloid could also be used in entirely new applications. Hyatt figured out how to fabricate the material in a strip format for movie film. By the year 1900, movie film was a major market for celluloid.

However, celluloid still tended to yellow and crack over time, and it had another, more dangerous defect: it burned easily and spectacularly, unsurprising given that mixtures of nitric acid and cellulose are also used to synthesize smokeless powder….




When you take excerpts from somewhere include the link to your source http://www.packagingtoday.com/introcelluloid.htm
Posted By: minivan

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 04:03 PM

Gosh, I just want to put some gas in my car, put the top down, and go cruising.....
Posted By: bremotorsports

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 04:20 PM

I would like to announce that tickets for the upcoming WPA (World Plastic Authority) World Championship Steel Cage Death Match Smackdown between Dave Walden and Scott Smith will go on sale Monday, March 30, 2009.

I will handle ticket sales, but anyone interested in being a ring girl, please contact me in advance!



Bill Rolik
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 04:22 PM

Quote:

I would like to announce that tickets for the upcoming WPA (World Plastic Authority) World Championship Steel Cage Death Match Smackdown between Dave Walden and Scott Smith will go on sale Monday, March 30, 2009.

I will handle ticket sales, but anyone interested in being a ring girl, please contact me in advance!



Bill Rolik




LMAO
Posted By: 71rm23

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 04:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I would like to announce that tickets for the upcoming WPA (World Plastic Authority) World Championship Steel Cage Death Match Smackdown between Dave Walden and Scott Smith will go on sale Monday, March 30, 2009.

I will handle ticket sales, but anyone interested in being a ring girl, please contact me in advance!



Bill Rolik




LMAO

X2
Posted By: Cooda

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 05:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would like to announce that tickets for the upcoming WPA (World Plastic Authority) World Championship Steel Cage Death Match Smackdown between Dave Walden and Scott Smith will go on sale Monday, March 30, 2009.

I will handle ticket sales, but anyone interested in being a ring girl, please contact me in advance!



Bill Rolik




LMAO

X2





Dave "The Great White Hope" Walden
-VS-
Scott "Yellow Fever" Smith


Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 06:10 PM

Just to set the record straight, although we might not always agree 100%, he has my respect as a knowledgable and valuable vendor, there is no bad blood between Dave and I, and I do not want to fight him in a cage (or anyplace else for that matter)
.

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 06:16 PM

BTW Dave, YOU NAILED that decal reproduction, NICE WORK!

Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 06:49 PM

Brother Scott, I am calling you as I type this....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 07:04 PM

Quote:

Brother Scott, I am calling you as I type this....



Not only is Dave talented, but he can multi-task too. Maybe we should start calling you Super Dave. Oh wait.... someone tried that already.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 07:08 PM

Oh crud, just got off the phone with Dave, big blow out yelling match ensued, guess we have to have the cage fight afterall
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 07:30 PM

Quote:

Oh crud, just got off the phone with Dave, big blow out yelling match ensued, guess we have to have the cage fight afterall




Scott you big instigator! We are STILL talking as I am typing this.

Yes Scott, you are right and I am wrong!!
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 07:31 PM

You're a D**ck
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 07:37 PM

Posted By: moparo

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 09:16 PM

do not use that language here kids are reading.lol

this is how you should spell it.

you are a
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 09:34 PM

Notice there are two * in that word? What could that spell that's non PG if one were to fill in the blanks?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 10:29 PM

Dave, no more Pm's
are you going to reproduce the 440-6 carb labels
for A12 cars? since you make are of the underhood decals i think this should be your next venture
the 2 outboard carb and center carb decals for 4 speeds and automatics.
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 10:57 PM

Quote:

Notice there are two * in that word? What could that spell that's non PG if one were to fill in the blanks?






Hhmmmm... ..... is it?!?...ummmmm... lets see now....hmmmm....Derelict?!?
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 11:14 PM

Quote:

Dave, no more Pm's




That is what happens when you have a run in with a moderator......you know, the guys who really have no business taking active part in these threads. They can dish it out but they can't take it. Rules only apply when they are in parallel to their particular agenda. You bruise or brush up against their ego and they wait for any opportune time to react! Quite honestly I think that a governing or supervising body has no business rubbing elbows (and in some instances instigating) with their subjects. Remember the chaperons on college trips? Of course you don't! They were not mingling with those they were in charge of overseeing. They stayed on the perimeter and did their job when things got out of hand. I don't remember them drinking and chumming it up with the guys or picking up girls...... Its called a conflict of interest!

Anyway, I have made the tags you are talking about. I never got around to advertising or promoting them. I will have Jon D. post a couple of sample pictures tomorrow.
Posted By: pinkduster

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 11:35 PM

Quote:

BTW Dave, YOU NAILED that decal reproduction, NICE WORK!



I don't know, but from an artist's point of view, I think I see some stuff that's not 100%.
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 11:41 PM

By all means, feel free to fix it!
By the way....how many times in your "artistic" life do you think you have written your name (twice) the exact same way?
Posted By: pinkduster

Re: high level restorations - 03/26/09 11:57 PM

Quote:

By all means, feel free to fix it!
By the way....how many times in your "artistic" life do you think you have written your name (twice) the exact same way?



Actually, I could.

If your arguement is that Carter could have had more than one vendor for their labels... Then yes, you'd be correct.

If they had only one vendor, and the printer used the same printing plates every time they printed the label (as is common practice)... Then the label should be the same every time. Well, there could be slight color variations due to ink and pressure variables. But the Trademark and registration symbols shouldn't change like these appear to. And their seems to be a very, very slight font issue and maybe a slight issue with the little car logo... But it is hard to tell in the pic.

Over all, it is a VERY nice reproduction with nice art work. The minor variations that I see certainly wouldn't be noticed while stuck on a carb on an engine in a car. However, I'd be sweetin' it out if I was using it as documentation to get in and out of a country.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 12:12 AM

....So were original washer jugs installed on the assembly line and parked in showrooms stark white or slightly yellowed?
Posted By: anlauto

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 12:16 AM

Quote:


We will have NO reproduction parts on the Valiant.... Original to the car or NOS pieces. Absolutely No repo parts!



Dave, I thought you mentioned somewhere before that items such as paper tags and wire harness tags will be replaced with reproductions where necessary?

I'm still very facinated by the whole concept of this project, but like most people...I wish you were doing it to a nicer type of car
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 12:17 AM

Every decal I make is done as an overlay in the MAC program Illustrator. They are about as close of a match as you can possibly get. The one pictured is a prototype sample that was printed on a toner based Xerox, four color laser machine. The images (like the registered trademarked logos) did not show up because the decal is lying on the carb at an angle and the natural light did not capture it’s true appearance. I can assure you that they match. Same for the color. It has not been type set printed so the PMS colors have not been selected or matched. When it is complete, it will indistinguishable from the original. Even the two original sample tags that are opposite of one another (on this carburetor) are not a mirrored match. One had crisp lettering and the other has smeared or ghost characteristics. I formatted mine from the better of the two samples. I hope my citizenship is not in jeopardy because I chose the lesser of the two decals. Scott S…please help! Am I in trouble here?
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 12:47 AM

Quote:


Dave, I thought you mentioned somewhere before that items such as paper tags and wire harness tags will be replaced with reproductions where necessary?

I'm still very facinated by the whole concept of this project, but like most people...I wish you were doing it to a nicer type of car



So far, just about every decal has been in excellent condition and will not need to be replaced. The originals have cleaned up very nicely. I will post some grouped pictures of the tags when I get a chance. (I don't think I should abandon the project or call it a failure if a label or two needs to be replaced. There will be plenty of time for criticizing and bashing after the show. Lets wait and see what actually happens between now and then!)

A nicer car? This will end up blowing the Cuda and Challenger away! If you mean more of a "performance" car....been there done that! It is time that the Chrysler hobby has the essence and backbone of it's heritage commemorated. Those were the type of cars that helped build the Chrysler Corporation. If anything, the Hemis and SixPacks were a loss leader for them. Image and corporate recognition was the purpose for those cars. The Six cylinder Valiant was the quintessential cornerstone that the company was built on in the late sixties and early seventies. Don't take my word for it Alan. I was told this about three months ago by the Vice President of Operations for Chrysler!
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 01:20 AM

You guys, please keep in mind that Dave made those carb decals for me as a favor (read, no charge, just being a nice guy). If I use 50 sets of them in my lifetime I'll be surprised, nobody will be making a cent from them. So, with that in mind I am not going to nit pick over some extrememly minor font issues that I'm sure Dave could fix if he were pushed to (which he won't be).

*But Dave, don't think you're off the hook on your other reproductions, you can count on me to look for every inconsistancy I can find....Booha, Boohhahaha! Boohahahahha!
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 01:31 AM

Scott my man, you should know by now that money has never been my motivation to manufacture correct reproduction parts. My motto is that 100 years from now, correct will STILL be correct!

PS.... Will you still be my good buddy after all the smoke clears and this fighting is over?
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 01:35 AM

Sure I guess I'll keep you on my "friend" list, afterall you asked so nicely and all.

Posted By: smac77

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 02:09 AM


You guys have too much time on your hands... Now you should debate whether "high level restorations" means: to original standards (which weren't very high). or to modern standards, where all the flaws are corrected (like the ugly yellowed washer bottles!)
Posted By: Bee4Me

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 02:44 AM

Just for uhhh.."reference".These are originals on my 69.
You make the call.
Nice repop on the Quad sticker. I have 2 and might just need a couple later.

Attached picture 5121821-BEEtrunk2.JPG
Posted By: Bee4Me

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 02:46 AM

Poor washer bottle....

Attached picture 5121829-BEEparts.JPG
Posted By: Bee4Me

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 03:00 AM

Actually need them for real.

Attached picture 5121873-T\'Quad1.JPG
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 03:14 AM

Quote:

Actually need them for real.



Ummm, for "real"? So do I which is why I asked Dave to reproduce them for me

Posted By: sixbbl69

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 11:47 AM

so with all the experience,education and knowledge we have been discussing can a simple common man answer the first question without 2 pages of pats on the back and all the advertising?????
Posted By: Bee4Me

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 02:32 PM

I realize that YOU wanted them but "if" Dave is making more than what YOU wanted,I would be interested in some as well.
If not,Fine, My car will still go just as fast without them besides being hidden under the air cleaner anyway.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 02:56 PM

Quote:

so with all the experience,education and knowledge we have been discussing can a simple common man answer the first question without 2 pages of pats on the back and all the advertising?????



Have you ever posted anything positive about anyone? If you have I haven't ever seen it.
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 02:58 PM

Quote:

...can a simple common man answer the first question....



By all means, have at it!
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 04:01 PM

Quote:


Actually, I could.



Here is the original pattern that the decal will be made from. Please feel free to correct the obvious errors that exist! I could certainly use your help!



Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 04:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Actually, I could.



Here is the original pattern that the decal will be made from. Please feel free to correct the obvious errors that exist! I could certainly use your help!








Just for the record (in case you didn't notice) my artwork is overlaying the original scanned decal!
Posted By: pinkduster

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 08:25 PM

Quote:

Here is the original pattern that the decal will be made from. Please feel free to correct the obvious errors that exist! I could certainly use your help!



Kind of hard to do anything with a 72ppi jpg file.

I sort of figured that was your artwork over the image of the decal. Still hard to really tell much from that jpg. I'd need the original image plus the Illustrator file to REALLY check it out.

Seriously, I'm not trying to bust your balls about this. However, if I can still see red around your art, then it is not exact. Right? Picky? Yes. Good enough for most things? Yes. Good enough for some of things I've done in the past (at my job)? No. Flat out, probably rejected by the customer. I've been in printing since I was 18... I am currently 40. So 22 years of doing art work, logo reproduction, copy camera, stripping (film assembly), printing, and other things I can't discuss.

Yes, MAC, Illustrator is the playing field of choice for this type of work. However, FWIW, You might not have had to go that far. It would have been really nice if you could have taken one of the original stickers off without damaging it. Then scan it at like 400% at 1200ppi. (Your method of high quality image could work as well, but I'd prefer the scan. ) Take it into photoshop, clean it up a bit, separate the two colors in grayscale and save 'em as a bitmap image. Place 'em in Quark (yuck).. colorize your red and lay 'em out and print. You probably wouldn't have had to redraw anything and it would be 100% exact. That is what I would have tried.

You must understand that this is a petpeave (spelling?) of mine. For years I have worked with people in the industry that are so-called artists. Some even come from a art college background and still they cannot actually DRAW in Photoshop, Illustrator or Freehand. Some people just don't know how to, or can't grasp the concept of point placement/location and handle/paddle control. In the time it takes most people to find a font that is "close", I can actually draw the type in Illustrator (over a scan).
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 08:53 PM

Pinkduster, FWIW, I know very little about how to make decals or the art process involved in duplicating them.

These decals are a multi-layer material with a sticky foil type backing that has a REAL firm grip, they delaminate and curl badly when removed. I haven't been able to remove one without ruining it which is why I sent Dave my entire carb with the best set of decals so he could do a good job. On the originals The red color does have allot of what appears to be "ink bleed" around the edges, maybe from the laminating process originally used?
Posted By: Snoopy

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 09:00 PM

This is a 69 Coronet. I was told the picture is an assembly line picture.

Attached picture 5123421-69Coronet.jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 09:29 PM

Well may be a production line pic Snoop but none of the colors in that photo appear to be exposed properly.
Posted By: Snoopy

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 09:33 PM

Look at the color of the ballast resister.


Read the description of this bottle in this eBay auction.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 09:41 PM

Snoop they both look overexposed to me, that gold irridate BR strap looks like it's nearly invisible it's so washed out.
Posted By: Snoopy

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 10:17 PM

Why would a car manufacturer use a yellow colored bottle for something that needs to be transparent enough to view the level of the contents and yet eye appealing to a potential customer.

I remember replacing washer and radiator overflow containers because they had gone from white to brittle yellow.

I just don't buy the yellow theory. There would have been no advantage, monetarily or mechanically, to use yellow plastic over white.
Posted By: LimeliteAero

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 10:22 PM

Snoop makes a very good point there.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 10:35 PM

I think what is being missed here is the degree of "yellow" I'm talking about. VERY subtle, white slightly tinged with yellow, not "old faded dried up washer bottle yellow" and not the reproduction washer bottles I've seen which had a dark yellow cast (much more than originals had). But more yellow than todays "bright white" bottles look. If I had one of each to post a pic of you'd see what I mean.....and you'd likely agree.

*What I'm describing is sort of like white rice with a bit of melted butter mixed in
Posted By: Snoopy

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 10:40 PM

IMHO, I think yellow tinted bottles have a legitimate place in the hobby as replacements for broken or missing bottles in daily drivers or cars that show their age where a nice bright white bottle would be out of place and draw attention from other more interesting areas of the engine bay. A yellow bottle in a freshly painted and detailed engine bay would have the same effect.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 10:41 PM

Sure, I'd buy that. I was discussing OE only in which case niether would be 100% "correct" IMO
Posted By: LimeliteAero

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 10:41 PM

Yes Scott, I know what you are saying about the Stark pure white bottles which I dont really care for which is why I started this to begin with.

I guess there are some very valid points to each side.

I do have a really nice older correct opening repop but the cap is incorrect. Its not pure white and may be my best option.
Posted By: Snoopy

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 10:56 PM

Now all we need is an original bottle that was taken directly from the assembly line in 1970 and placed in a dry nitrogen purged and oxygen free pressurized and UV shielded container. That has been stored in an environmentally controlled storage room since it's encapsulation. That will bring this discussion to a screeching halt.
Posted By: Snoopy

Re: high level restorations - 03/27/09 11:01 PM

I just found the one I have that is in such a container. I would open it up and take a picture, but I don't want to ruin it's historical significance for future generations. You will just have to take my word for it. It is white, really.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 12:07 AM

Quote:

Now all we need is an original bottle that was taken directly from the assembly line in 1970 and placed in a dry nitrogen purged and oxygen free pressurized and UV shielded container. That has been stored in an environmentally controlled storage room since it's encapsulation. That will bring this discussion to a screeching halt.



I'm sure if there was one out there like that.....Dave Waldon has already bought it
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 12:10 AM

Quote:

However, if I can still see red around your art, then it is not exact.




I thought you were an artist? Didn't you factor in for the bleed when it is typeset printed? Wow! That is probably the first thing ANY graphic artist will compensate for in their artwork!
Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 12:28 AM

Quote:

Snoop they both look overexposed to me, that gold irridate BR strap looks like it's nearly invisible it's so washed out.



Is this one over exposed? Another one from back in the day, except color.

Attached picture 5123877-69beepromo.jpg
Posted By: rocketresto

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 12:30 AM

Here is a picture of a some hemi plug wire gromets that came from a nascar team, they have been in a box in heater storage since 1975. They may or may not be yellowed from age but they do show a lot of variation in base color. I agree with Scott that the new repo plastic parts are not correct.
Mike

Attached picture 5123880-DSC02189.JPG
Posted By: sixbbl69

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 12:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

so with all the experience,education and knowledge we have been discussing can a simple common man answer the first question without 2 pages of pats on the back and all the advertising?????



Have you ever posted anything positive about anyone? If you have I haven't ever seen it.
[/quote
glasses?
Posted By: pinkduster

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 12:58 AM

Quote:

I thought you were an artist? Didn't you factor in for the bleed when it is typeset printed? Wow! That is probably the first thing ANY graphic artist will compensate for in their artwork!



Please.

Know your printing vocabulary. The first thing that ANY graphic artist or printer knows is that "bleed" refers to the amount of "extra" color or art that goes out past the trim size (usually 1/16th or 1/8th of an inch) so that no "white" or paper is showing after cutting.
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 03:46 AM

Quote:

Know your printing vocabulary.



Have we now switched from the subject of Graphic Arts to Offset Printing? Is that your best reply? (Diversion from the subject matter is certainly better than having to concede.) I will absolutely admit that I am not a “Printer.” You will need to argue your printing vernacular with the individuals who actually perform my printing. They have referred to the amount of ink that seeps beyond the original art/line boundaries as a “bleed”. Tomato…Tamato! It certainly doesn’t change the precision and exacting qualities of our decal products and services. I would much rather be guilty of having “parsed” words than be inconversant of the actual outcome or results!
Posted By: pinkduster

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 12:05 PM

Did we switch from graphic arts to offset printing? I didn't realize that. Offset printing IS part of graphic arts as is all printing methods. In fact, more than likely, the original decals were not even printed via the offset process. I'm going to guess that they were printed on a Flexo press which is known as Flexography printing. Flexo printing uses a rubber type plate fixed to a metal cylinder. What you are refering to as bleed simply looks like the pressman applied too much pressure and distorted the image on the plate. It's also remotely possible that the original labels could have been printed via the silk screen printing process. Now I don't have as much trouble shooting skills with silk screen printing as I do with Flexo, but I'd still say that there was a pressure issue between the screen and the substrate. Either way, I am surprised that you do not want to capture these flaws of the origianls into your reproductions. As I have often seen with reproduction labels, they are TOO good. Now granted, this doesn't bother me for a label or sticker for any of my cars. However, a restorer like yourself, who needs everything to be EXACTLY like factory would want the flaws duplicated into the reproduction. (I would think.)
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 03:14 PM

It seems that you might have some valuable experience in the printing industry! If you ever make it to the St. Louis area, stop on by. I have personally instructed my graphic employees regarding the type of work that I expect. You might actually qualify to be an assistant for one of them! (We start our entry level graphics people at $30 an hour.)
Since you have come here to critique and play the overseer, lets focus on the big picture and do some comparisons between our actual vehicles. (Isn’t that what all of this is really about?!) I am sure that a person of your discerning ability has used their talents to factor into the “Art” of restoring a vehicle. Let me know which aspects or components of the car you wish to start with. I have photos of any area you might wish to compare. Come to think of it, the only photos presented thus far have been of my efforts. Like most commentary that is directed towards my work, all you have provided are some typed words in an attempt to substantiate whatever abilities you seem to feel you possess.
Like I said if you ever make it to Missouri, stop on by. I would be happy to let you know if you have what it takes to make the grade. Of course you might actually have to do something to show your value other than just talk about it!
One last question, where might I find the name of the company that you own and the National publications that have presented awards for your work and/or products?
Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 04:33 PM

You know, as I sit here in my hotel room reading this thread, I find myself a little confused. What exactly is the discussion? Terminology, processes or finished product? I was fortunate enough to spend a substantial amount of Mr. Waldens time yesterday at his shop and the printer that prints the specific stickers that is being discussed here. I'm certainly not an expert in the typesetting/printing field, however, studying the reproduction sticker compared to the two originals it looks absolutely perfect. Mind you, I haven't put it under an optical comparator yet. BTW, the two originals have noticeable differences between each other.
Posted By: Snoopy

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 05:28 PM

Quote:

for the guys doing premium restos and for the guys doing it themselves please ponder this.

Which do you prefer, The aged/yellowed look for the under hood plastics or the virgin white look?

I wish I was around these cars when they were new to have noticed this sort of thing.



Above is the original question. How the heck did we get here from there?
Posted By: pinkduster

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 06:06 PM

Quote:

It seems that you might have some valuable experience in the printing industry! If you ever make it to the St. Louis area, stop on by. I have personally instructed my graphic employees regarding the type of work that I expect. You might actually qualify to be an assistant for one of them! (We start our entry level graphics people at $30 an hour.)
Since you have come here to critique and play the overseer, lets focus on the big picture and do some comparisons between our actual vehicles. (Isn’t that what all of this is really about?!) I am sure that a person of your discerning ability has used their talents to factor into the “Art” of restoring a vehicle. Let me know which aspects or components of the car you wish to start with. I have photos of any area you might wish to compare. Come to think of it, the only photos presented thus far have been of my efforts. Like most commentary that is directed towards my work, all you have provided are some typed words in an attempt to substantiate whatever abilities you seem to feel you possess.
Like I said if you ever make it to Missouri, stop on by. I would be happy to let you know if you have what it takes to make the grade. Of course you might actually have to do something to show your value other than just talk about it!
One last question, where might I find the name of the company that you own and the National publications that have presented awards for your work and/or products?



First of all, I am not into the type of cars that you are into. I prefer street machine type vehicles to the "as when new" type restorations. I prefer that the cars actually look NICER than when new. I like cars that the paint under the unibody looks as nice as on top. I honestly don't like the look of the OE type judged cars, but that is just my preference. I prefer undercoating by Mickey Thompson or BF Goodrich.

To the OP... I prefer the "white" looking washer bottles. Looks nice and clean and new. Might not be correct, but I don't care.

As far as seeing some of my art work. Well everybody here has probably seen it at one time. All the stuff you pull off of a pair of Lee or Wrangler jeans... I've done some of that stuff. Automotive battery labels from Walmart, Sears, Advance auto... I've worked on them. Certainteed roofing and siding products, Reading Truck bodies, Morgan truck bodies, Mack trucks, IMS business solutions and other countless local type advertising stuff. I'm actually under legal contract to never discuss some of the real high end stuff that I worked on. So you can use your imagination on who that customer was as I'll never tell.
Posted By: ECS

Re: high level restorations - 03/28/09 08:36 PM

Quote:

All the stuff you pull off of a pair of Lee or Wrangler jeans... I've done some of that stuff. Automotive battery labels from Walmart, Sears, Advance auto... I've worked on them. Certainteed roofing and siding products, Reading Truck bodies, Morgan truck bodies, Mack trucks, IMS business solutions and other countless local type advertising stuff. I'm actually under legal contract to never discuss some of the real high end stuff that I worked on. So you can use your imagination on who that customer was as I'll never tell.




All joking aside, I have a tremendous amount of respect for the type of work that you provide. You have to remember that most of what you do is first generation artwork that does not need to represent anything other than the imagination and approval of the customer. I have to match someone's original ideas and/or drawing concepts. There is no latitude in the design of the artwork. It is either right or wrong!
I am not trying to match "MY" signature, I am trying to match another person's signature from forty some odd years ago. In essence, I am actually just a counterfeiter!
Posted By: DPelletier

Re: high level restorations - 03/30/09 03:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

for the guys doing premium restos and for the guys doing it themselves please ponder this.

Which do you prefer, The aged/yellowed look for the under hood plastics or the virgin white look?

I wish I was around these cars when they were new to have noticed this sort of thing.



Above is the original question. How the heck did we get here from there?



Who knows!

I vote white for a fully restored car but if my 53,000 mile survivor 'Cuda ever needs one, I'll go with the yellow, faux aged bottle.



Dave
Posted By: sg333e

Re: high level restorations - 03/31/09 03:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

for the guys doing premium restos and for the guys doing it themselves please ponder this.

Which do you prefer, The aged/yellowed look for the under hood plastics or the virgin white look?

I wish I was around these cars when they were new to have noticed this sort of thing.



Above is the original question. How the heck did we get here from there?



Who knows!

I vote white for a fully restored car but if my 53,000 mile survivor 'Cuda ever needs one, I'll go with the yellow, faux aged bottle.



Dave



Agreed!
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