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H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs.

Posted By: bdgtfb

H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/29/17 11:31 AM

can anyone end the debate on H wheel black gloss level - semi gloss or gloss? also did the original wheel lugs have an L stamped on the left hand threaded nut or were the corners of the hex's notched? any help would be appreciated. thanks
Posted By: Big D A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/29/17 02:35 PM

I will start with the easy answer. Yes, the left hand lugs had a "L" stamped on the side of them. No notches in the lugs I know of.

I can say without a doubt the finish on H wheels was not a "gloss" finish. Semi gloss at best. These wheels came from the M5 factory with a black paint on them. The finish would have then been effected by the cure on any given day. I have seen many different levels of finish on original M5/9 wheels, but none "gloss"

The idea was to keep the cost down as Chrysler knew people were going to run aftermarket wheels. Hence the reason these are so hard to come by, people tossed the originals.

I have a survivor A12 in my shop with it's original H wheels and lugs. I will post some pictures later today. There really is no debate, at least in my eyes.

D
Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/29/17 07:39 PM

I agree.

I had several NOS wheels and several un-used spares for comparison.

Although the factory did not use flattening agent, because the paint was applied quickly over bare steel, I would describe the appearance as 80% gloss. In other words, the wheels were not as glossy as the exterior of a black car, especially by today's standards.
Posted By: NANKET

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/29/17 07:57 PM

The best gauge of the gloss level is to remove the tire and look in the bead area. Years of washing and dirt abrasion changes the finish on the outside of the wheel.

I agree with dr diff, I think it was gloss paint applied hastily.
Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 12:06 AM

& the "H" wheels were no different than any of the other typical steel wheels (the "cheapness" was across the board) - they were all painted gloss black by the wheel manufacturer

45+ year old "H" wheel between the beads scope

Attached picture hemi wheel c.jpg
Posted By: bdgtfb

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 01:44 AM

were all the H wheels manufactured / painted in the same factory / location? could this account for differing opinions on the gloss level?
we have 2 posters with original rims stating different gloss levels and this seems to be consistent every where I have researched this topic.
Big D A12 were you looking at the bead area of the H wheel? I appreciate you expert opinions
thanks
Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 02:38 AM

H wheels were painted just like all the other wheels produced by the same plant.

Compare the paint between the tire beads of a nice original spare to the body paint, then ask yourself if you would be satisfied with that level of sheen on the exterior of the car.
Posted By: NANKET

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 04:01 AM

Look at the picture, looks like gloss black. Satin black does not shine like that.

True that they don't look as good as the body of the car, they are painted in a shop environment with no primer or sanding of the surface.
Posted By: Big D A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 05:31 AM

Originally Posted By 6bblgt
& the "H" wheels were no different than any of the other typical steel wheels (the "cheapness" was across the board) - they were all painted gloss black by the wheel manufacturer

45+ year old "H" wheel between the beads scope


Dan - What plant is this wheel from? It does look more "glossy" than I am used to seeing. The H wheels on A12 cars originated at the M5 plant, so only those from that plant should be used for accurate reference.

D
Posted By: Big D A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 05:39 AM

Here is an outside picture of an original M5/9 H Wheel dated 4 1. It among others is what I base my previous answer on.

I have not seen the inside of these wheels to answer the question if the finish is different.

D

Attached picture IMG_2989 W.jpg
Posted By: Stewpar

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 06:08 AM

Originally Posted By Big D A12
Here is an outside picture of an original M5/9 H Wheel dated 4 1. It among others is what I base my previous answer on.

I have not seen the inside of these wheels to answer the question if the finish is different.

D


Call me crazy, but that might be "correct" if it spent all its life outside in the weather. That rim is way to dull......... work
Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 06:33 AM

I'm not talking about "satin" (matte) black like GM drivetrain components. I'm talking about "semi-gloss" black, which still has a sheen (1 step below gloss).

Regardless of what you call the paint, if you want to duplicate the look of new OEM steel wheels, they should not be as "glossy" as the exterior of the car. Because painters are more careful in application than the factory, this usually involves a little flattening agent.
Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 07:19 AM

The wheel pictured above is a M5/9 1 -o- 28 6.0 "H" wheel.

Attached picture H-wheel moparts DSC00939.jpg
Posted By: A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 10:37 AM

Originally Posted By Big D A12
I will start with the easy answer. Yes, the left hand lugs had a "L" stamped on the side of them. No notches in the lugs I know of.

I can say without a doubt the finish on H wheels was not a "gloss" finish. Semi gloss at best. These wheels came from the M5 factory with a black paint on them. The finish would have then been effected by the cure on any given day. I have seen many different levels of finish on original M5/9 wheels, but none "gloss"

The idea was to keep the cost down as Chrysler knew people were going to run aftermarket wheels. Hence the reason these are so hard to come by, people tossed the originals.

I have a survivor A12 in my shop with it's original H wheels and lugs. I will post some pictures later today. There really is no debate, at least in my eyes.

D


On the note of keeping costs down, in order to get a matte or lower gloss level doesn't another agent have to be added to paint to make it less glossy, and wouldn't that add cost?

I personally think as noted by Dan that the wheels were (high) gloss black, not semi-gloss or matte. All of the dog dish/hub cap car wheels were high gloss body color finish and if the car was a X9 black car they wouldn't have to paint the wheels to match the car cutting costs or did they paint the black wheels black again shruggy

Have to say the wheels came from the vendor in high gloss black and in little or no time in use would lose the high gloss finish and make it appear they were not gloss......until you take the tire off the first time. Just like body paint is originally high gloss finish and then you lift the carpet or remove a panel and either find it still glossy or dull in area even though you know originally it was glossy 45+ years ago. Just my opinion.

MikeR
Posted By: A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 10:42 AM

1

Attached picture 69promobee3[1].jpg
Posted By: A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 10:49 AM

I know you really can't tell the gloss level from the photos but to me a gloss showroom finish would not be too much of a request of the supplier by the manufacture.

Attached picture 1969-dodge-super-bee-hood.jpg
Posted By: A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 10:54 AM

They look so much better in high gloss black smile

Attached picture DSC00640 (2).JPG
Posted By: A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 11:20 AM

This would have been so much easier if they would have just gone with the original styling department's idea of body colored wheels with no hub caps or wheel covers.........I'm sure they would have been high gloss body color devil


MikeR

(and no décor package/post b-pillar bright finish and a full horn ring, and removed the antenna for the photo shoot or to make removing the fiberglass lift off hood easier...oh and doesn't look like chrome lug nuts just yet....that's a factory media photo by the way)

Attached picture 6bbl rr 1969 w body color rims and no antenna copyx.jpg
Posted By: Big D A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 02:18 PM

So back to OP. The debate rages on. I think we are all in agreement that the finish would not have been as sharp as the body paint if it were black.

As discussed, the finish would have been effected by many factors even if it started as gloss black.

Dan, as expected you are thorough in your assessment and I should not doubt your choice of wheel for discussion.

Stewpar, below is a picture of the same wheels yesterday in my shop. The car was a one owner vehicle that is in unbelievable condition. Never driven in the winter and kept inside. I do not think I will be able to buff these up to the luster shown in previous pictures.

Mike, I agree, finish didn't effect cost. My cost reference was purely on the plant applying the least expensive wheel knowing they would be removed. Looking at many M5/9 wheels, quality of paint application was not a priority, hence the varying finishes we are discussing.

Where does this leave us? I think it will be up to the owner of car to discuss with his restorer. We apply a semi to low gloss black on our reproduction wheels. The finish even varies for us in a controlled environment.

D

Attached picture IMG_6410 web.JPG
Posted By: minivan

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/30/17 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By A12
I know you really can't tell the gloss level from the photos but to me a gloss showroom finish would not be too much of a request of the supplier by the manufacture.


The above pic of the guy taking off his lift off hood reminded me of what a pain those hoods were for a daily driven car ( if the pig would start)....

Thank goodness mine had a vinyl roof so I had somewhere to set the hood....



Attached picture DSCF0175.JPG
Posted By: 70440+6bbl

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/31/17 03:28 AM

I think they were rather glossy. Here is a 5-14-69 M5 wheel that was never installed and I was the first to have the mint redline removed. It was more glossy in person.

Attached picture A12Hwheel51469.jpg
Posted By: P1970HeMICuDA

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/31/17 04:35 AM

They're gloss black, but the paint was a lower quality bought in bulk by the wheel company. The wheel paint didn't need to be of the same quality as the body paint- even lower quality for radiators,and other painted chassis parts. As far as I know, they were manufactured by Budd Wheels in Cambridge, Ont.
Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/31/17 05:37 AM

M = manufacturer = Motor Wheel Corp. (a subsidiary of GOODYEAR Tire & Rubber)
5 = plant #5 = Chatham, Ontario, Canada (opened in '66, is it still there?)

how are we connecting that to Budd?
Posted By: bdgtfb

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/31/17 06:29 AM

does everyone agree with Big D A12 re the left hand thread wheel lug marking?
Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/31/17 06:30 AM

yes, original LH lug nuts were stamped "L"
Posted By: A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/31/17 09:07 AM

Originally Posted By 6bblgt
yes, original LH lug nuts were stamped "L"


And don't forget the "dimple" wink

Attached picture DSC08353.JPG
Posted By: Big D A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/31/17 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By P1970HeMICuDA
They're gloss black, but the paint was a lower quality bought in bulk by the wheel company. The wheel paint didn't need to be of the same quality as the body paint- even lower quality for radiators,and other painted chassis parts.


I think this is the best explanation I have heard. If you compare the gloss paints of today to the original bead area, there is a difference.

The semi gloss paints of today are a good match to the original finish, regardless of what it was called in 1969.

Good discussion guys. I think we have an answer? I will post a picture later today of the original lug nuts.

DD
Posted By: NANKET

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 01/31/17 07:37 PM

Now you do realize that HOW you spray the paint affects how it looks, right. Thin or thick paint aka amount of reducer, dry light spray or wet heavy coats, hot or cold day, hot or cold paint, humid or dry air, pressure at the gun, Etc.

Painting over bare metal makes the paint look a bit transparent. That is how wheels are painted. Try it at home sometime. Topcoat over primer or bare metal and see the results.

When was the body of a car painted over bare metal at the factory? Not at Chrysler, they were primered and sanded before paint.
Posted By: Big D A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 02/01/17 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By NANKET
Now you do realize that HOW you spray the paint affects how it looks, right. Thin or thick paint aka amount of reducer, dry light spray or wet heavy coats, hot or cold day, hot or cold paint, humid or dry air, pressure at the gun, Etc.

Painting over bare metal makes the paint look a bit transparent. That is how wheels are painted. Try it at home sometime. Topcoat over primer or bare metal and see the results.

When was the body of a car painted over bare metal at the factory? Not at Chrysler, they were primered and sanded before paint.


Exactly, I agree. Left hand lug nut below.

D

Attached picture LH Lug.jpg
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 02/01/17 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By 6bblgt
M = manufacturer = Motor Wheel Corp. (a subsidiary of GOODYEAR Tire & Rubber)
5 = plant #5 = Chatham, Ontario, Canada (opened in '66, is it still there?)

how are we connecting that to Budd?


http://www.chathamdailynews.ca/2011/04/03/fond-memories-of-motor-wheel


There were two of the same nuts like it is said above, one with no dimple the other has one. The dimple is what you want to be OEM. Use to have bags full of both threads, used to put them on everything that took a factory steel wheel.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 02/01/17 08:42 PM

Originally Posted By Big D A12
Originally Posted By 6bblgt
& the "H" wheels were no different than any of the other typical steel wheels (the "cheapness" was across the board) - they were all painted gloss black by the wheel manufacturer

45+ year old "H" wheel between the beads scope


Dan - What plant is this wheel from? It does look more "glossy" than I am used to seeing. The H wheels on A12 cars originated at the M5 plant, so only those from that plant should be used for accurate reference.

D


Have you taken a tire off to compare the inside of the wheel to the outside of the wheel that has been exposed to varying degrees of UV for the last 40 years ?

Paint and how it was applied back in the 60's 70's is not the same as it is now.

I would flatten it so it looks somewhat close to it did back in the day ...
Posted By: A12

Re: H wheel gloss level / A12 wheel lugs. - 02/02/17 03:45 AM

IMO the real reason the '69 A12 Road Runner's and Super Bee's came with 4-15"X6" black steel wheels and no hub caps and that you couldn't order other wheels.......so you didn't have to buy wheels to put your drag slicks of (2) different sizes (diameters) or different compounds. You could spend that money for narrower front rims and tires or a set of custom wheels to put the G-70/15 Goodyear red lines on for the street.




Mike
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