Is this '71 Hemi Challenger in the running for the last Hemi

After reading through the AAR/TA thread on here I can't help but to think of an interesting car I seen this past summer at the CNY Mopar Madness - June 2016.

It was interesting for quite a few reasons and I will try and cover them here with some pics. I'd be curious to hear what other people know about the same car. Anyway I thought is was cool and it would be a pretty interesting topic for a Saturday afternoon in January.

Here's the story:

The couple sitting under the tent bought this one new in 1971. It is a 1971 Challenger R/T. Ordered with the 426 Hemi a 4-speed and a 3:54 Dana. The story on how he came to own the car was pretty cool. He said he was a 100% Ford guy and had just ordered a 1971 Boss 351 Mustang, went to work on the midnight shift and when he got home he got a call from the local Dodge dealer. He had heard he had ordered a new Mustang and wanted him to come down to the dealership to check out the Challenger. He told him that there was no chance he was buying a Dodge but decided to drop by for some fun, As they sat down at the desk and went through the Challenger and the options they ended up building Hemi Challenger that was equipped with close to the same options that he had ordered with his Mustang, that is why you see the spoiler package. The first shocker came when they tallied up the price...the Challenger and the Mustang came within $22 of each other! Pretty much a no brainer at the point but Bill (the Challenger owner) thought to himself not soo fast...no why these guys are going to be able to match what the Ford dealer is giving me for my trade.a 1967 Ford Fairlane GT 390 4-Speed. What about my trade Bill said....will how much was Ford offering?...I am not telling you that Bill said chuckling. Anyway the Dodge boys go out and check out the trade in....come back in and say its worth $1500....Bill puts his head down....well what was Ford offering? $1100 says Bill....the Dodge sticks out his hand and says I guess we have a deal....and that's how a Ford guy comes to own one of fifty eight or so 1971 Hemi Challenger R/T's.

First weird thing about this car is when you look at the front of the car it has both Challenger and Cuda front spoilers...both Plymouth and Dodge J78 Front Spoilers were shipped in the trunk for dealer install with this particular car. History is that the original dealership installed both sets....."

The next thing I asked was about the paint: So I asked Bill how he ended up ordering a FC7 Plum Crazy car....Bill said he had wanted a blue one but the dealer had told him he had just sold a GB5 Challenger with a white R/T stripe and he didn't think it was a good idea to two of them running around there small town. I asked him how long the original paint lasted....Bill said the original paint started coming off in giant chunks as soon as he had brought it out of winter storage in the spring of 1972....because it was a Hemi car...Dodge didn't warranty the paint so it got its first repaint before it was even a year old.

I thought this was a bit weird myself as I thought Hemi cars came with a 12 month/12k mile warranty. He wouldn't have been over for time. I guess he could have been over the mileage but it didn't seem like it would from the way he told the story. I wonder if back in the day if that was a common occurence with the too bad soo sad warranty denial.

As you can see it has a very late scheduled build date of June 16th 1971...one of the last Hemi cars made...what made this more interesting is that Bill said he didn't actually take delivery of the car until September 11th or 14th (I can't remember which day he said now). Looking back now it would have been nice to have taken a pic of the door sticker as well but I didn't. He was pretty adament about the daye he got the car. He was getting pissed that the car was taking so long. His wife was sitting in the chair beside him nodding her head the whole time.

So where does this car fall in line in regards to the last Hemi built. Can anyone share the discussion that is going on about this? I seemed to have missed it.

Dave

More pics. And no those aren't factory louvers.

Dave

I've known Bill and the car since I first saw it at the Syracuse Nationals in 1982.
It was then painted a cross of pink and purple ( I have a picture somewhere )
He told me when he ordered it he had thought about a shaker hood but it was one more car payment ( about $100.00 ) so decided against it.
ears later at a NHOA meet, I mentioned he should contact GG regarding the late build date which he did some time later.
That is another story that I prefer Bill tell

He said the car was painted about the same colour as the elephant on the roof. That would be a cool picture if you can find it. He also mentioned the Galen story to us...pretty funny.

Dave

Found it Dave...
Unless one surfaces IMHO there are no Hemi E-bodies built after this one that are known .

I'd be curious about the date on voltage regulator, that one was a dealer part and not the assy line reg.

thanls for sharing !

Carsten

this Challenger R/T is ~6000 assigned VINs after the "LAST hemi'cuda" - you would need the broadcast sheet for each car to see when they were on the assembly line.

so, is the broadcast sheet available for this Challenger R/T?

they were not all built on the fender tag's SPD "SCHEDULED Production Date" or in VIN sequence order, my Challenger R/T was built ~14000 cars "LATE"

notice the T/A style fender hardware & the '72 battery hold down "HUMP" w/o a weld-nut LATE '71 e-body stuff!!

There is a very nice original broadcast sheet with the car.

the "LAST hemi'cuda" is BS23R1B429180 & sold at a MECUM auction in INDY 2011.

based on my research & in my OPINION: the 'Cuda was built 5,000+ cars before the subject HEMI Challenger R/T (JS23R1B43xxxx).

it appears assembly line #2 was running 2 assembly shifts during June of '71 when these two cars were built. I don't have enough info on '71 HAMTRAMCK at this time (working on it, but '70 HAMTRAMCK line #2 was building ~1100 cars per day in June)

the two HEMI e-bodies were "SCHEDULED" two days apart: BS23R1 on Monday June 14 VS. JS23R1 on Wednesday June 16, but IMO they were built closer to 5 days apart with the 'Cuda being built first.

that leaves B-body VS. E-body & Lynch Rd. Detroit, MI VS. Hamtramck, MI

1971 HEMI Charger R/T contenders:
WS23R1A190774 "SCHEDULED" Friday June 11 - yellow 4-speed
&
WS23R1A192238 "SCHEDULED" Friday June 18 - white automatic

IMO

Lynch Rd. b'cast sheets sequence numbers track early VS. late
everything I've seen in regards to these two HEMI Charger R/Ts indicates that they were in process/in plant on "SCHEDULE" +/- 800 cars, which was +/- 2 days as Lynch Rd. 1971 was ~400 cars per day. & with VINs 1464 apart, the numbers can start to get close.

IF:
WS23R1A190774 Friday June 11 (2 days late = Tuesday June 15)
&
WS23R1A192238 Friday June 18 (2 days early = Wednesday June 16)

so, was the 'Cuda early or the Challenger late?

Definitely a late build car. I have got an old black and white photocopy of the build sheet. Next time I am home I am going to talk to Bill and see what the dates are on the block. If I can ever find the time, I would like to sit down with him and Judy and scan some photgraphs of the car from "back in the day". I do know that he he raced it extensively and won his Super Stock class in '73. I do believe that him and Judy went on their first date together at the races with that car.

Stan

I did a study on the parts changes and broad cast sheet information a long time ago. If I can find the information I put together I will post the information or send it to Dan so he can add it to what he has already. Challengers at this time lets say June of 1971 have the studs and nuts for the fenders. This would eliminate man power in the process of putting the fenders on. Have not studied Plymouth Ebodies at this time and not sure if this happened with them. I say this because there is no logic in Chrysler when it comes to what Dodge did and Plymouth did but you would imagine that both had the studs to hold the fenders. End of May start of June was the month that the 1972 build was starting to show up on the 1971 E Bodies. Trunk Floor pan with the rear access holes, Tach is different on some, fender studs. front and rear bumpers became slotted and lots more. Now why did Bills car sit for a month or more and then get delivered in September as he has said. Michigan to Detroit is not over a months trip. One problem at this time was getting these car built. My Challenger was to be built at the end of May but has a June door sticker this makes it at least 7 days late on the SPD and possibly more because there is not a day that is on the door sticker just a month. Hemi Cudas I have looked at with the same SPD have a May door sticker. So looking at this information the Challengers or Dodges were running around 5 and up days behind the Plymouths or Cudas. Back to Bills Challenger, it has been painted twice since it was new. It has had some work after a lady hit the Challenger. The bumpers are not slotted and what else was changed during the restoration if anything. I guess I should take a road trip and visit him and ask some question about time lines from when he ordered the Challenger till when he received the Challenger from the Dealership. When these cars are Hemis they usually have the old Hemi casting date in the cars not the 1970 blocks and assembly dates.

Stud/nut change for e-bodies started with the mid year TA/AARs right?

The first time Chrysler used the stud and nut for the fenders on E Bodies was on the Trans Am cars in 1970 and I believe only on the Trams Am E Bodies in 1970. All other E Bodies received the bolts. I never saw this again till I bought my 1971 June built Challenger back in the 70s and started to notice my car had different panels and the studs on the fenders, different Tach and a bunch more stuff that was different than the 1970 and other 1971 Challengers. Even the trunk lids are different from 1970 to 1971 even if they all were made for all options of Luggage Rack and Wings, there was eight square holes that hold the wing bracket that are made bigger for easler access for the clip. There are two trunk floors designs in 1971, front bumpers there are 3 different front bumpers and 2 different rear bumpers on Challengers. This never stops in automotive production and there must be a break point for all these changes and this information usually makes it into the parts book so you can order that part that fits into the time frame your car was built.

To come up with detailed information Dan (6 bblgt) or I would need anyone with a Challenger or a Cuda with a serial number from 400000 and higher. What we need for a comparison is the top complete line of the broad cast sheet that starts with 2 and then the Sequence number, then the build date(SPD) then the VON then the serial number or just send the complete broad cast sheet. Putting all this together can give us information on what went on during this time from late May to the end of production in the plant for the E Body build.

met Bill in 1983 in syracuse and again in milan in 1985 .
just checked my ownership vin is BH27G1B429165 fender tag is 6/14 .Yes i know only a lowly 318 car have owned since fall of 1982

do you have a b'cast sheet and an original door sticker? can you share?

Do have broadcast sheet will require some hunting tag was on door at one time but does it not only say month /year

Using the door sticker for a reference you can find out the exact date were the Sequence number changes over on Plymouths and Dodges on June 1. This can give us all a good starting point to look at and refer back to on cars built later in the month. Hope everyone is following me here.

GVH no car is great than another. Because your car is a convertible it gives us information if your Sequence Number is much higher that others SPDs of the same date then there has to be a reason for this. Being a Convertible if it is later could be because of parts availability. Since no one was there we are trying to put a picture together of what went on at this time via what was built.

I also have a 1971 Challenger 318 Convertible. Any ebody still around now is special and I like taking a look at those E Bodies that are not RTs or Cudas.

Is this the same guy that was looking for HEMI exh.manifolds @ Carlisle this past year if so some friends & I ran into him & his wife @ the Gingerbread man during dinner,told me all about his challenger,there where some Canadians eating there also that where very loud & boisterous & kept dropping the B.Ls matter BS made for a very uncomfortable dinner,next day I saw him walking around with a sign on him looking for 71 manifolds.

Definitely not him. He has never been to Carlisle. I am willing to bet that the last time he has been to big Mopar show outside of NYS was the Nats in the late '80's.

Stan

That would be great Stan. It would also be interesting if he had any insight as to why his car took soo long to get delivered. Maybe check to see if the door sticker survived the multiple repaints.

Dave

HemiStan how is your Challenger build going these days. We need to meet up with Terry and I can drag Dave down with us when you are back in NY and visit with Bill. Why Bills Challenger might of sat for so long and delivered in September is a mystery but I have a few theories on that but need more information to prove the theory. Door stick likely would have the Serial number and June 71 on the sticker but what if it had July 1971 on the sticker. When was the sched last day of production in Hamtr.for the 1971 build and when was shut down or the two weeks of sched. holidays that summer.

IMO The Compliance Decal date isn't going to help narrow anything down a whole lot. All the "Compliance Decal " states is that the vehicle in question was built in compliance with the FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS that were in Effect on the date shown above. Which means the date on the decal is nothing more than a verification of what safety standards the vehicle and vehicle parts were assembled under. If you have access to all the information to some of the cars built in the first few days of each month and the last few days of the previous month you will find overlapping dates. Imo the date was changed every month due to the possibility of regulation changes since this "Compliance Decal" requirement was in it's infancy. check your Federal Law for changes or simply check "decal" for info changes.

I have a friend who bought 70 GTX in sept 70 new off the truck .When the 71 were nearly coming out.I'll talk sometime and find out date on tag it may have sat also. Yes it is green &he still owns it .It's in cold storage this time of year.

Maybe at next years show?

Dave

I read your opinion on the other thread I referenced at the beginning of this thread. I was just curious if this car had a factory door sticker that survived and if so what date was on it.

If you have some time to kill and you want to read up on 1970 Door Stickers and how they relate on Mopars...here you go:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=116563.0

Dave

Thanks for your input Dan. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Dave

If the Door Decal is put on a vehicle with a VIN 123456 on it and the decal says May and you can find a Vehicle with a VIN 123457 and it has a door stick with June on it you have a date when the Decal changed months. This Decal is printed just before it is put on the Vehicle. We are trying to compare SPDs and VINs and Door Stick Months and also would need the Sques. Number on the top left hand of the broadcast sheet. This tells a lot of what is going on at the plant at that time. I know production does not follow the VIN sequence. If enough broadcast sheets and fender tags and general information is collected then a pattern can be seen in production.
I have owned my Challenger for ever and a day. I have look at the May and June build and know that the SPD is later on a Dodge then on a Plymouth. I know it is minimum of 7 days late looking at my June built 1971 Challenger that should of had a May door stick if it was built near the SPD. My Challenger is not the only one I have seen with a SPD of May and a June Door sticker. Every Challenger I see that has a VIN near mine I look at the Door Sticker on the car and the SPD and all the parts that were built on the car that are the same as the 1972 build.

Dave and Kevin,
I am sad to say that I haven't done much to the Challenger over the past year. I did get a couple of more cool photos of it from 1971 from Goeff Stunkard this past summer. I have gathered up more parts for it but I picked up this Satellite in August and have been feverishly working on it. My goal is to get it in primer and be shifting the Hemi at 6500 RPM's by June 15th..... I plan to take it to Carlisle this year. We will have to catch up!

Stan

Stan,are you putting the 70s motor in the 66. Only 6500 RPM shifts, I wont tell you how high a shift the Hemi in my Challenger and the old motor was shifter almost 2K about that. Stock stroke motors do rev. Looks like you got it all, A12, 66 Hemi and the 70 Challenger. I sold my two A12 a while back but kept the four 71 E Bodies.

the above St. Louis assembled '66 HEMI Satellite was at least a week late first time around so, plan ahead!

real LATE for the '66 model year, do you happen to have the IBM info on it??

another issue outside of the plant that may have an effect on the "scheduled" build of an ordered car is the dealership's financing of the car - Chrysler wouldn't build an ordered car if the selling dealership did not have its finances in order.

I have seen lots of reference lately to the broadcast sheet sequence numbers. Does this refer to the actual line sequence or broadcast sheet print sequence ? Any proof ? Why do broadcast sheet sequence numbers not jive with the actual line numbers that are stamped in the fender tags of Lynch Road cars ? Fill in some blanks and it should be obvious which car was last.
VIN BCSSEQ FTLINE#
WS23R1A190771
Ws23R1A190774 189771
Ws23R1A192238 191340 191570
WS23R1A195362

You would think that the very last car built at Lynch Road would have the VIN # and the fender tag line # match- right? IE if the last car was 1A196700 the fender tag line # would match 196700.

the "LAST" assigned VIN sequence number would NOT have to be the "LAST" sequenced car on the assembly line.

Correct. What I was trying to say that if 197000 vins are assigned then there will be a fender tag out there with a line # the same as the last VIN #

Hey DaveC just curious; what's the date code stamped on the K-frame?

Mike

I didn't look Mike.

Dave

it appears Hamtramck stocked K-frame assemblies where as Lynch Rd. assembled them as needed - Hamtramck K-frame dates are all over the place

I feel very fortunate to have these cars. I had to trade a nice '68 Hemi GTX for the Challenger project but it will be nice in the end. Hemi E-body projects aren't exactly growing on trees these days....

I have got a dated coded '66 Hemi (carbs, heads, .020 over block) that I will be screwing together for the '66. Nothing crazy but I am looking for 600 hp.

I have another "new" unused block (mid 1990's) that I will probably put in the '70. I have got a tunnel ram and a nice set of '65 aluminum K-heads that I will probably use on the Challenger as well. I will save the '70 block for when I decide to go "stock' with it. If I ever do that!!

Stan

Dan,
I do not have the IBM card for it but I should probably send for it. It came with two nice build sheets. I didn't pay much attention the SPD on the '66 until yesterday morning. I was looking at the BOM on the Dana and it had a May 16th date on it. I thought that was pretty late until I looked at the SPD. WOW! July 18th!

Stan

Still would be interesting especially if the date code was very close to the end of production or very near the SPD. IMO there would be no way to have a very late date code or one that was after the actual production date. The date code regardless would be days, weeks or even months BEFORE the actual production date not AFTER. The K-frame date code was probably the last hand or machine stamped date put on a part of a Chrysler closest to final assembly..........or is there some other permanent date somewhere else (decals, documents and paperwork don't count in this instance )

Mike

Stan, you can easily get the 600HP out of the motor. I might pull the 66 Hemi out of my Challenger. Would like to put the Challenger on more of a Diet and see if I can get it below 3100 lbs. I keep seeing the new KB Blocks and maybe Stage V heads and think that would put me close to under 3100 lbs with an all aluminum motor for the Challenger. I also have a 18 spline aluminum case 4 speed for the car and would take off the 12x15 inch steel wheels and put on some light weights. I do like your trios of hemis. I have them in the basement. Hope you bring it to Carlisle, I would like to take a ride in it. I was collecting 1966 Hemi Parts like motor, four speed, radiator. Always wanted a no frills 1966 B Body and they are reasonably priced for a roller.

This may be an interesting story to some but I believe I owned for a brief time the last hemi challenger built. I will give you the details from a car I bought in the mid 80s from the original owner.

The owner was a recluse high school dropout in west Los Angeles. He lived next to my high school and the car was always in the garage or if he took it out it was just for a race (high stakes) as he lost his license driving to a job at Mattel. It got raced on a few wednesday nights as it had a stack of mid 12 sec time slips in the glove box. Had 17k miles on it. Mint shape.

About the car..
Light blue metallic, blue interior. 4sp
Stock except cam changed to a racer brown, original went flat and headers
Options:
Shaker hood delete, I found 426 emblems in the inner rear fender wells
Standard hubcaps no rally wheels
4:56 gears
AM radio with 8 track you could record memos on
Had fire extinguisher, not sure if it was factory

Why I believe this may be the last
The owner ordered and prepaid for it in early 1971. They came back after a long delay and told him production was finished for hemi cars in june, 1971. His dad was a high powered lawyer and sent letters to Dodge management that he would sue them if they didn't produce the car. They listened and from the documentation I read they produced this car out of sequence after the production run was finished. I don't recall the number the car was but this documentation would indicate this to be the last for sure. Back in the day I sold the car to a collector and then he sold it to another Otis Chandler owner, at the time, of the LA Times.

Wonder where it is today?

I remember it from Chandler’s collection. I have pics of it somewhere.

Someone should have a fender tag info for it.

I believe there are other 71 Hemi stories like this.... ordering a car and waiting way late in the production year to get it. and salesman telling them it was not available.

I wonder if Troy from W. LA remembers this car. Did the guy have other cars?

The car is in the book on Chandler's collection. That's the only time I've seen it.

My 71 GTX has the 72 left front inner apron, 6/71 door sticker, door trim panels dated 6/28.
Car was ordered in April ‘71. According to the sales receipts he didn’t take possession until September.

I’m still digging up date codes.

This it?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UYwzRRZerBM

It was GB2.

I believe this is it. Same spot in museum as in video.

I think the guy pictured is the collector that sold it to Chandler.

That's the car. Has to have some of the most obscure options offered. Is the museum still intact?

Museum is long closed, so that cars whereabouts are ???
What are some of the 'most obscure options' that you mention Don.
You stated it has radio with cassette.....
Sounds like a neat car.

Excuse my ignorance, I am not as knowledgeable as you guys. So I dont know how many were built that went to this sleeper extreme. He asked for 426 emblem on hood delete but I found the in the trunk fender wells, maybe dealer? No shaker hood. Am radio, yes but it was 8 track iirc and it had a mike to record memos. Silver steel wheels and what looked like dodge van hub caps. The owner made it seem like this was all done by Dodge for him. I recall larger wheels and tires, polyglass, in the rear like G70 and F70 on the front. I had the sales receipt but can't remember if it listed all the options separately.

Don one of the problems everyone is having is you have no VIN or VON or SPD or Build Sequence that would be on the Broad Cast Sheet. An old ownership or insurance slip or what ever could help you with a VIN. The Car in the Video is said to be the Challenger. Hard to tell stuff from a picture. I know the person that took the Video, he is a Mopar guy from Quebec and knows a lot about Mopars and maybe I will have to phone him up and talk with him to see if he took a few better pictures of the sign or fender tag or broadcast sheet when he took the Video. One thing in the Video of the FM3 Cuda is I sold John Smith that Shaker Hood before he restored it. I think the Cuda had hit a deer. A lot of people have been asking me about this Challenger. I knew of its existence but have never seen it is person as it was always on the West Coast so I do not know the information I have on it is correct or even the same Challenger. Blue is pretty common on these car if that was the original color. So Don take a look around at old paper work and see what you have. I have a June Built 1971 Hemi Challenger, it is the last one built also for Canadian Sales but not the last one ever to be built. It is a loaded race car so not all drag cars lacked options. The Purple car has a 616 SPD and he has paper work saying it would be built and the paper work Chrysler sent him by June 23rd so after that date, so the FC7 Challenger from New York has a June Door sticker so it could of been built as late as Wednesday June 30th 1971. Another late Challenger has a SPD of 609 but is very close to the FC7 Challenger in Serial Numbers, this Challenger was likely pushed up to be built being an R Code Von but really you had to be in the plant to know what happened. All the numbers in the world including date codes does not tell a complete story on what day a car was built. You can get very close but you need paper work. Late 1971 Hemi Cars, had November 1968 casting dates, the FC7 NY State Challenger casting date for the block is Jan. 1970 the normal time most blocks were cast for 1971 E Bodies. So even looking at all this the is no common things happing with the E Body Build at the end of the Year. No sure if Chrysler really cared about a Lawyer or a Lawsuit. They have plenty of Lawyers on the payroll for just this kind of things if a person thinks they could sue and win a cast of a Challenger not being built.

No 8 track in 71 but you are probably thinking of the optional 71 cassette player which had a mic and the capability of recording memos. It would have been on the floor, either mounted on the console or just mounted on the floor between the seats if the car didn't have a console. You could get the cassette player with just an am radio in 71.