T/A 'and AAR's

looking for info T/A and AAR built end of march beginning of April, found several in that time period built within 2 days of each other and another 7 days apart Door vin 3-70 fender tag dates 401 ,403, 407. all motors no vin #'s all cast same date . anybody else have a T/A or AAR built in that time slot with similar scenario. or any info. I know its only three cars, but find hard to believe that they are all warrantee blocks. does anybody have any accurate info?

There is no way to know how many days apart these cars were actually built.

The date on the tags & broadcast sheets is actually the Scheduled Production Date, or SPD. It is the date that they hoped to build the car, not a 'build' date set in stone.

The original door stickers on the other hand were required to indicate the actual final build month & year. This is why the dates on the stickers do not always agree with the SPDs.

Lots of folks assume that the cars were built in VIN order, but it did not happen that way.

Also......

Warranty blocks had warranty tags riveted to the side of the block.

T/A blocks were also sold to anyone that wanted to buy one.

Neither type had a stamped VIN.

The T/As & AARs I have seen so far with actual blocks replaced under warranty have regular 340 blocks.

They would just send out what they had to fix the issue, there was no guarantee that a T/A block would be sent.

1 the door sticker says 3-70 fender tag 401, block no vin 4-3-70
2 door 3-70 403, " "
3 door 3-70 407 " "

no vin on all motors all 3 same casting date on engine , trying to find out why no vin ? hard to believe all three warrantee with all dates that close. I understand schedule dates but everything jives for same time period. where there only certain dates they cast blocks? did they do them like they did for hemi"s in batches ? trying to verify if theses could possibly be orginial blocks, but need more info , can you help?

are the numbers on block below the drivers side head close

It would be impossible for any car built in March 1970 (assuming the door stickers you are looking at are originals) to have an original April 1970 cast engine from the factory.

in other words these could very well be the original blocks to the cars? do you have any documentation or is that speculation from your research? was there any type shortage on blocks? were they cast in batches ? or were the cars pulled of to side till ordered or blocks became available? just trying to nail it down . to many similarities to be confidence .just curious.

Did any of the cars in questions have numbers trans? Doubtful they would have stamped the trans and forgot the engine.

My car was a 407 SPD, not sure of the door sticker since it was stippered before I got it, the engine is a TA service block with I think a 4 26 70 date on it but for whatever reason I have no picture handy. Only is was put in when I built it in 13, in 72 it had a regular 340 short block installed under warranty, it had a 72 casting date on it. My trans is original and I am sure my original engine was stamped. So if you didn't know these facts then my car would support your theory, yet it has nothing to do with the assembly line.


I believe you have simply lucked up on 3 cars with service replacement blocks and yes, engines were cast in bulk and not every engine was cast every week.

I bought my AAR from the original owner back in 1982. It has a SPD of 403 on the fender tag. The engine in it is a non T/A, no VIN or assembly stampings warranty block. The casting date on the block is 7-2-1970.
I was told by the original owner that he bought the car new in Oct. 1970. He also told me that the car already had something like 700 miles on it when he took delivery. It appears that the not T/A warranty block was installed before it was originally sold new.
The auto trans does have the correct VIN on it.

mopargem that was also my first thought until found the other 2 cars with most of issues. that's why I asked if there was a strike or mechanical breakdown on the assembly line that might have stalled production. the thought of running out of blocks is a stretch in my mind,thats why im looking for documentation of any mishaps at the assembly plant , but all three vin's close and scheduled dates as Barry stated and all three blocks with no vin numbers and all 3 same casting date. does anybody have the warrantee records? as far as no way that the car built in march could have 4-3-70 block I would have initially agreed with you but im reminded of the battle between welborne and castaluchi over who has the last hemi car built.(don't kill me if I spelled the names wrong) that's why I never say never, and that's why im trying to find more cars built 3-70 and 4-70 to see if there are anymore similarly built. by the mopargem whats your fender tag and door sticker dates?

I believe all AAR/TAs were built from late Feb to maybe April 17th with the pilot cars being Feb 17th area, Barry can confirm, so most all of them were built in your 3-4 70 time frame. Lots of service replacement T/A engine and lots of people search them out for all the AAR/TAs missing their original engines.

My VIN is within 60 of his.

What about tranny numbers?

mopargem...
Another H4 bench seat AAR. My AAR is also a H4 bench seat car, but what is strange here is that your tag also has the bench seat code C65 and my tag does not. I had always thought that the fender tag on theses cars never got a bench seat tag code other than the H4.

my TA was built April 15 of 70

I've been working on a number of "ACTUAL PRODUCTION DATE" calendars based on broadcast sheet info - this will help answer some of these type questions. The constant "when was my A12" built sparked this idea , but its theory/method - I believe - is sound. It will be a long process but I've been working on the following:

Lynch Rd. '69-'71 (A12, Superbird, "last HEMI" & others)
Hamtramck '70-'71 (HEMI E-bodies, TRANS AMs & others)
St. Louis - '68-'71 (Chargers & others)

'70 HAMTRAMCK assembly LINE #1 (smaller line) - I've got most of March & April figured out (I think)

AAR on eBay

this AAR was on "SCHEDULE" "In Process & In Plant" on April 9, 1970

I know, pretty unamazing with a 410-SPD but that was the first b'cast I found on eBay.

so, any b'cast sheets? post them, PM, or email

I've not seen C65 on a '70 e-body fender tag either.

the Angelucci VS. Wellborn "last HEMI" controversy - second time I've seen mention of it this week - start a new thread

My friend has a V code Challenger R/T that has a build date of 7/30,I was telling him that he may have the last 70 Sixpack Challenger built. Do you have any built after that one Dan?

Barry has cars in his database later than mine, but does your friend's car have a broadcast sheet?

I don't believe they were still building 1970 cars 7/30/70 (& I have not seen any '70s "scheduled" after 7/30)
- that's a "SCHEDULED BUILD DATE", I know of one 7/30 car built at least 2 days before my 7/02 car.

What's the sequence number, upper left seven digits?

1-106533 is the last V-code Challenger R/T built that I know of & it was "SCHEDULED" 7/23.

I will ask him if he has a sheet for the car.

does anybody have data base of all T/A and AAR built similar to the one for CHARGER 500's ? it seem s organized by vin and build date with other info to help for research. it would be nice to be able to see how many were built and when.

There are several sites out there with info on Trans Am cars, Barry's and Jeff's seem to be the most comprehensive but they do not have all built just all discovered. I think the count is up to around 1300 of each and includes what they know about the cars except private info but they will assist in putting people in touch when needed. Everyone that knows about them shares anything they find but there are some who do not know them so there is no doubt plenty more info yet to be discovered. Many of us take pictures of cars and tags across the country at every opportunity and send it in. There has also been several reunions that brings new information.

Dan, your box is full, send me your e-mail address I have a number of sheets for you.

Kevin

could please give the address for the sites you mentioned?

Jeff's sites;

http://www.transamcuda.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

&

http://www.transamcuda.com/

Ken's site;

http://www.aarta.com/

My sites;

http://www.challengertaregistry.com/

&

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/


For AARs currently known to me, over 1700 so far & for T/As 1,495 so far.

http://www.transamcuda.com/

http://www.challengertaregistry.com/

Looks like Jeff is up to 1700 AARs so almost 3/4 of the them accounted for. They also have links to other sites of interest to these cars.

Enjoy.

Is it red? We had one out here that was a 730 SPD

I have heard of 5 JS23V0Bs with a scheduled production date of 730 so far.

I am sure more will surface with time.

Were most of them N96 cars?

The car is F4 green with black side stripes. It has green interior,and is a 4 speed car.

My friends car has a rallye hood.

No C65 on my bench T/A either. Canadian car, SPD of 415.

Talk about fender tags and numbers. Does anybody here have any idea as to why there are only 3 T/A cars in the registry with the V02 two tone paint option and how that option came to be. Seems the same option was not available on the AAR cars which is strange because the V02 option was available on a plain jane 70 barracuda?? I have a story right from one of the men who worked a the Autodynamics shop that built the suspension for the T/A cars. Just curious if anyone else heard about this. I was trying to get hold of Sam Posey to verify my source from Autodynamics, but I know he is difficult to get hold of.

My guess would be cost. You could get the same look for less money. The painted top was $31.05 and the vinyl top was $83.95

We had a famous 71 hemicuda that was out here that was black with painted white roof and a bench seat. Rumor is that it was ordered by a CHP officer

Would like to hear your story.

My story is based on Autodynamics in Marblehead, Massachusetts who built the Sam Posey 77 car, which if you notice has a black painted top?? No AAR cars have painted tops or the option for it? My car appears to be a local bought car originally. Maybe the same dealer that handled the Sam Posey, body in white car sent from mother mopar to autodynamics to be built for Sam Posey....

There is nothing keeping an AAR from having a two tone paint job that I know of and it is listed as an option for Barracudas / 'cudas

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/images/dealerships/SalesmansPocketGuides/1970/Pg%20032.jpg

The 77 car or a replica is over at Sears Point Raceway

The T/A and the AAR cars were built to allow Mopar to enter a car into the SCCa races. When they did this, they sent a separate order request sheet to every dealer in the country that was eligible to pre-order an AAR or a T/A car. It was that sheet that called out which options the car could be ordered with. My understanding is that the T/A sheet had a V02 option code but the AAR sheet did not have the V02 option code, not to be confused with the option book which was for the general car lines, which is what you are looking at. It is also my understanding that in order to be elegible as a dealer to order these cars, you had to already have a certain sales volume, and higher volume dealers could order more units than the lower volume dealers, as the whole point was to get these cars out there. Now, the sales Pre-order sheets I am talking about were sent out to the dealers and they actually gave the dealers a cut off date in which they would not be able to place an order after that date. That was due to the fact that they planned on building these cars all within a few months. This is my understanding. Maybe Barry knows otherwise. Oh, I happen to have one of those T/A dealer pre-order sheets.

Story I read recently in one of the car mags states the reason for the black top. Posey's team got caught with an an acid-dipped roof. They had to hurry up and cut a roof off another Challenger and weld it on to theirs. Wasn't time to color-match the roof, so they painted it black.

V02 was an option from the start of the model year on factory cars.

Bodies in white delivered to racers had no codes assigned.

I would be very surprised if Sam or anyone from Autodynamics knew anything about factory option codes back then.

I'd have to pull my old documentation out (unless it's on the AAR site) but there were options that were no allowed to be combined with the Trans Am packages. I believe V02 was one of the ones listed as not allowed with the AAR package. Also, unlike Challengers vinyl tops were limited to black on AARs.

I agree with Barry. The vendor wouldn't know or care what was offered.

Dodge could have decided that V02 would be offered on the T/A in case someone wanted to have one that looked like the race cars, but I don't remember what the timing was. It's equally likely that they just decided that since V02 didn't interfere with any of the Trans Am package options it didn't matter if they allowed it or not, unlike say sill moldings, BSM, rear spoiler or a shaker.

That's been a story long related but I'm not sure I believe it. Are there any shots of the car with a green roof? Maybe they just wanted it to look like it had a vinyl top from a distance. :-)

Wait, I just remembered that the cars had vinyl tops at one point because there was too much green (Posey hated the color).

OK. When I had my T/A engine rebuilt in Marblehead MA, it was in an old industrial park with several small companies. While the T/A was in the repair shop, the owner of the shop mentioned to me that the Sam Posey 77 car had all the suspension and roll cage work done in the building right next door. He said it was done by a company called autodynamics. Then he told me that the man who is in the building now building small rowing boats actually used to work for autodynamics back in the day. I went over and introduced myself and told him my T/A was being worked on. I asked him about what they had told me. He told me he in fact worked there and the Sam Posey 77 car was built right in that building and he worked on it as well. He also told me Sam Posey moved into a house right around the corner to be close to the work on a daily basis. He said the car was shipped to them body in white from a local dodge dealer. They went to work on it and Sam would come over every day to see the progress. When the car was done it was returned to the dealer to have the paint done now that the fender flaring and other body work was complete. When the car was returned from the dealer, it was all sublime green top to bottom. He told me he was there the day Sam came in and saw the car for the first time since being in the shop. He walked up to the car and stood next to it and said to the guys there. "you are kidding me, they want me to drive this aweful green car around a racetrack." They told Sam the car color was not his decision to make as the car belonged to Dodge. At that point Sam told them he was not going to drive that car like that in that color. He told them to get the green out of my face. Send it back and have the top painted black. That is the story Mr Harkness told me to be true from way back then. It is my belief based on what I read and was told about the SCCA rules, the cars they sold to the public had to have options that would be able to be bought by the general public. Dodge had to ad the V02 two tone option to those special sheets they sent for the pre-orders of the T/A cars they would sell. Plymouth never had that issue and their Pre-order sheets did not have the V02 option code as an item dealers could order. That is why T/A cars had the option and AAR cars do not exist with two tone paint. But on a general non AAR car, you had that option in the salesman book. I assume that the local dealer who saw what the 77 car looked like with the painted black top placed an order for my T/A as it was born in Massachusetts. I think both cars came from Lynnway Dodge in Lynn MA which is 3 miles from where the 77 car was done. As you see, most T/A cars had the vinyl top or solid color. I think you have to see the black painted top to understand how it made the car look a lot lower and a lot longer. That it what I always came to appreciate about my V02 car. And I would love to ask Sam Posey about that story, but I believe Mr Harkness to be a straight up guy. He even showed me black and white photos still hanging on the wall with the 77 car being worked on by the crew. Just thought I would share this as I think it really is a cool story.

Does your pre-order sheet show the Sunroof option?

I agree. Sam and Autodynamics had no knowledge of option codes or even colors. The cars were delivered with no codes. But that did not preclude the fact that Chrysler still had to live by SCCA rules with these cars. That is why Sam was surprised by the sublime green when he set eyes on it. That is why he was able to just say paint the roof black without even thinking about option codes. However, because he painted his roof black, Chrysler had to make that color code option available to the general public for any T/A cars. The T/A cars and the AAR cars both had their own spec sheet in which dealers could order from. Kind of a custom menu. It even deleted a lot of the colors in which you could by a regular Cuda or Challenger. So yes, Sam and Autodynamice new nothing about this stuff, but Chrysler, who was the actual owner and sponser of the cars they provided had to abide by the SCCA rules. My source is Mr Harkness, who actually worked on the T/A car back in 1969 and 70. I am just trying to capture historical facts of how these cars were ordered and why T/A have V02 and AAR do not. And I think the reason there were so few V02 T/A cars was that it was a very local decision to paint the top, Chrysler added the V02 code to the T/A custom order sheet and the local dealer saw how cool the car looked and order a couple to sell. As stated, my V02 car is a local car as I am aware of the previous 2 owners. The other V02 I know of is only down in New York and it is plum crazy with a white painted top. That car could very well have come from Massachusetts as well and moved to New York.

Black was available with V02 from the start of the model year.

Chrysler originally wanted Sam to drive a pink car but he refused. So they went with green. He wrote about it in one of his articles, or maybe his book.

AARs & T/A were available in all 18 colors in the menu at the start of the model year plus the two mid-year colors.

One 999 'special order' T/A is also known so far.

Mine does. Standard 1970 Challenger order form with the T/A specifics already filled out.

Closeup showing the two-tone line;

Question for you: are you saying all AAR/TAs were order from these order sheets? I have always understood most of these cars were built to spec by the factory and set to dealer as is here it is. Every tag or sheet I have on file, the majority of which are AAR (10-15, not a big file ) all have the Y05 code for sales bank cars, supporting what I have understood.

Stories can evolve over time and might have little to do with the truth in the end, sometimes naturally and sometimes to make someone seem to play a bigger role than in reality. It would be great if you could get confirmation from Sam cause that is an important part of history.

Y05 is build for US sale.

Y07 - Build for Canadian sale.

Y14 - 'Sold' car (ordered)

Y16 - Sales bank.

Ordered AARs & T/As are well known to me.

Some cars are Y14 & Y16 at the same time, these are cars typically ordered & paid for by a dealership for their own lot stock.

I know some were ordered but were the majority of them? Guess I got codes mixed up. So if they were ordered off of the sheet would they not carry the Y14 code? If I understand correctly many if the cars were built in batches so to speak, being virtually identical cars not likely all the forms got checked the same from different dealers but I guess only so many options so it's possible. My car is in a series of what 4 or 5 known that are pretty much the same from what is known about them and there could have even been more in the run that aren't documented yet.

Most AARs were sales bank cars from orders filled out at the factory like yours.

But some were ordered from outside the factory as well.

VINs were occasionally assigned to blocks of similar cars, but they were not built in VIN order.

And again, some cars are Y14 & Y16 at the same time, one does not exclude the other.

Gotcha on the Y codes and yes many conversations about not built in specific order, VIN assigned in order of when the order came in right? The point of my question was I was trying to verify if NortheastMopar was saying they were all ordered by the dealers from the spec sheet.

I was just saying that regarding the V02 option. And there were special order forms for dealers to use to order a T/A. I am sure Mopar sent some along that they built, but there was a dealer order sheet specific to these cars. And the AAR sheet did not have the V02 option. That is my understanding. Does anyone have a dealer order sheet for an AAR cuda to look at??

Good deal, VO2 makes for a very unique TA that's for sure.

Post the TA order form if you don't mind, I don't know that I have ever seen one.

The picture Barry posted is what I have. It says it is a sample of the 1970 Model Challenger. Does this form include AAR cars? That is what I am trying to say here? That sheet also is filled in to show a dealer which codes to put where to order a T/A. My thoughts are, if all these cars were built and shipped by the factory, then why the need to send out this kind of form to a dealer? That is what I am a little cloudy about. I have been chasing this info since I bought this car and have not yet been able to solidify these things. I am only repeating what I have found out and my story about autodynamics came right from John Harkness. If you do a search you will see he attended the autodynamics reunion a few years back and he is listed as an engine builder for their formula cars. He did not work on the T/A engine as they were done by Kieth Black on the west coast. But he did work on the 77 car suspension, which is what they did there. The person who could really know this is Sam Posey. I was thinking of trying to send him a letter because he is not listed in the phone books that I can find. But, as Barry states, these guys probably had no known knowledge of codes and reasons to add or delete a code. So he may not even know about what a V02 code is. I can only tell you what John Harkness told me. Sam looked at the sublime car and told them to get the putrid green out of his face. When they told him it was not his choice regarding the color. He said he would not drive that car and told them to send it back to the dealer and have the top painted black.. So I don't know. It is and always has been a mystery.

They were ALL built at the factory.

They would have all been shipped from the factory unless 'plant pick up' was specified at time of order.

Most orders originated at Chrysler (not at the assembly plant)for the AARs & T/As, but dealerships could order them, thus the form sample shown.

Agreed. I know they were all built at the factory, lol. But the form is for a Challenger model with the T/A on the front cover. Did Plymouth do a like form for the AAR?

Very cool

A long time ago I researched the cars in depth. As I understand the information: When the AAR's & T/A's were announced by Chrysler to the dealers the dealers were told you are getting X number of cars. The # of cars was supposed to be based on the volume of the dealer. They were also given the option to order as well and there are some ordered cars out there. The number of cars produced - 2500 per Dodge & Plymouth was established by SCCA homologation rules. I do not remember reading in the documents about colored roofs or vinyl tops or colors period. I will look again at the rules at some point, but not right now.

The AAR order form was stamped "AAR" in large letters.

As I mentioned, my thoughts are based on a few pieces of info I acquired regarding the black painted top on the 77 car. The info came from John Harkness who was actually there. My second thought was that it was clear that the 2500 cars that were sold to the public had to be available with all the options that the 77 car had available, which (now this is an assumption) includes the factory paint colors? My next assumption is that Chrysler had to add the V02 option to the T/A to cover the black painted roof on the 77 car. I guess I am looking for proof that the AAR cars also had two tone paint so I can put my assumptions to sleep. However, I have not as yet found a two tone AAR or an order sheet that says it could be ordered with the V02 option?? I guess if there is one sunroof T/A than there might be only 3 painted top T/A challengers? By why no AAR's? I really don't lose sleep over this, but it comes up every now and then and I try to get some answers every now and then hoping somebody might have found some new info on this subject. Barry, does your car have a sunroof?

The race cars did not have any options, no fender tags or broadcast sheets for bodies in white. They were delivered as a bare tub.

The AARs did have fewer optional available than the T/As.

Rallye wheels standard with no other wheel being optional.

Black vinyl top only, no white, green or Gator tops like Challengers.

Manual or fast ratio steering only, no regular PS like the Challenger.

T/As had more options available, it is just that simple.

The Dodge line has always been more upscale than the Plymouth line.

It has been mentioned above, 2 or 3 times;

The V02 option was not added to the T/As option list, it was available on all Challengers from the start of the 1970 model year on any 1970 Challengers that could be had with a painted roof.

(No V02 on Convertibles or SE models for the obvious reasons)

Photos of a tub that was not used in the thread at http://www.transamcuda.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1140052574

On the race car, it does have a black painted top, but the factory V02 cars also had molding at the rear to cover the mask line.

It was never a 'real' factory V02 car.

Makes Sense. Looking at the pre-order sheet fir the T/A are all the options that are blacked out not available on the T/A, correct?
So, yes, I see the V02 option as being available. I would love to see a pre-order sheet for the Plymouth line AAR. Maybe they did not make one?? At any rate, I guess at this point, I am of the understanding that my V02 along with the two others you know of are just as Gelen stated rare optioned cars? I have just always thought it to be odd why so many black vinyl top cars and so few of the painted top cars. Vinyl tops have always been a more formal option in my opinion, but who knows at this point. I guess you can also wonder who would order a sunroof in a car that looks like a racecar? I was also surprised to find that C15 deluxe seat belt package on my fender tag. Another rare one in a T/A? And I guess that the story John Harkness or autodynamics told me is probably true regarding Sam Posey telling them to send the car back and have the top painted black. Maybe I was just reading into these stories too much. I only wished my car came with a build sheet so I could have seen where it was sold through? Registry in Mass said it is too far back to find it even if it were born in a Massachusetts Dealer.

There is not any dealership information on broadcast sheets.

oh wow. another dead end. I guess the registry was the only place if the car was originally sold in Massachusetts. They only had the info on the person who sold it to me. And I knew him as a neighbor. He bought the car in Boston sitting in a garage with the original carbs and intake but a non matching motor, which I had all redone to better than the T/A specs. Dyno at 357 HP. Kept it kind of stock, but I knew as long as the motor was not n umbers matching it did not matter what I did with it. The owner told him the car was being raced up New England dragway. It had a big Box scoop somebody glassed into the original hood. What a mess. I was lucky enough to find a real nice original T/A hood. But he was told the original motor was long gone to the scrap heap.

I asked previously to Berry do you have any Documentation about whether or not T/A 's and AAR's might have or have not been held out of line for any reason that might warrant the reason for so many unstamped (vin) blocks? if you do would you mind sharing with the rest of us?

I am not aware of any reason that an engine would not have been stamped at the factory before going into a car.

If anyone has a non-stamped block it was likely used as a replacement after something when wrong with the original block.

the reason I ask after reading thru past posts by members, they claim that the unstamped blocks are warrantee blocks and it seams that you may concur that thought. I have found rather odd that if there were that many issues with the T/A blocks one would think that the famous "black cloud" would have cast its shadow over the reputation of the 340 T/A blocks and the cars them selves. Not to mention that the likes of Carcraft and Hot Rod Magazine would probably reported it, or some kind of TSB. That is why I asked if that there was a strike or mechanical issue during that time period.
After talking to several members we came up with several scenario's that would possibly explain occurrence.
1. strike
2. mechanical line failure
3. casting failure or warrantee issue
4. a push from Chrysler to meet the required number of cars
to meet SCCA requirements to participate in Racing
Program.
5. cars pulled off line due to lack of T/A Blocks available
to meet requirements.

Out of all the scenario's listed we think that 3,4,and 5 are the most probable. That being said this is just speculation and further research is needed.
So far no one has recovered any TSB's to support no. 3., and no record of a strike 1., no record of mechanical failure on line no. 2.

Since you have been known for having the largest data base on T/A and AAR's and have had some ties with the Chrysler Historical Society I would like to know if you have any documentation to either support or deny any of the scenario's . and finally would it be possible for you to make a spread sheet with all the vin's for T/A's and AAR's with SPD's, decal date, and fender tag date along with casting date and whether vin is on block? I do know its a lot to ask ,but from what I have read you have the largest data base and it speed things up for everybody if you were able to share the info. thank you

You have forgotten the real scenario, most of these cars were beat like rented mules and the engine simply gave up due to over revving and abuse. I know mine was street raced with a vengeance and it is by no means an except. There was nothing "wrong" with the engines that would call for mass failure, they were just driven hard. If you take in account they all came with 3.55 or 3.91 gears, had 26 or so tall tires and half of them being automatic 60 MPH is 3000+ RPMs, do you think many people drove these cars 60 MPH when taking any amount of trip? The other half was 4 speeds and of course I know no one ever drove those aggressively or ever missed a shift. I would say if you look at any segment of muscle cars there are no more original engine cars in any line or model than in the AAR/TA cars for the above reasons, most just don't seek out a special block cause they were just blocks were as the TA block was a specific block, add to that that the TA block had a very limited available so a lot of the ones out there were service blocks or Duster blocks.

I think you ran across a pure coincidence and you are trying to add a back story to substantiate it. The back story is these motors got popped in a high number and a high number of people went to the troubled of finding a service TA block to put back in them. End of story.

On Jeff's sit there is a list of AAR VIN and SPD but not engine numbers info.

On the ordering question, so what I understood was correct, the majority of these cars were "factory spec" built cars just sent to the dealers. The part about turn to earn has been part of the car business since I have been in it even to today so not surprising that they were allocated by sales volume back then as well.

thank you for your reply although the Questions were directed to Barry since he was the first to respond to my post and from what I have seen here everybody seems to believe that he's the "man".i am hoping he is willing to help.
As to your reply I do appreciate your opinion, however I wish you would have read my post a little closer.
as I pointed out that several members and myself were having a discussion and reading thru past posts and trying to figure out why three cars that I have located all three having almost identical issues around the same time period. by your account they all three were driven hard and put away wet,(old expression)or blown up. That would mean that all three cars that were built within days of each other all more than likely had mechanical failures around the same time period, and they all three end up with the same casting dated blocks with no vin or warrantee tag riveted on block. I think that is even a bigger coincidence that what I was asking about.
if you will go back and read again you will also see that I stated reasons that were most probable, see reason # 3. casting failure or warrantee issue.I think that would cover hard driving issues.
You stated that a large number of people sought out the T/A service blocks for replacements. Dealing with the public and growing up in that era I can tell that is not always true while there may have been a few people across the Nation that would have done that, I feel confident that most would have contacted the local salvage yard unless you have some documentation to back up that theory, and that's why I stated that my thoughts were just speculation and further investigation needed to be done. And that is also the reason I asked if it would be possible that Barry or anybody else had any documentation in support or denial of those scenario's.
I had also asked if Berry would make a spread sheet with data he has accumulated over the years as it speed up any investigation in this or other questions one might have about their car.Opinions are great and respected but sometimes differ with others, but "Documintation " is denfinite.

You're very diplomatic and I appreciate that in all seriousness. As I pointed out very early in this thread, my car would fall exactly into your scenario and time frame, the only difference with mine and the 3 you have found is we know the back story without question. Yes, opinion but based on known/accepted history, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. There are many numbers engine cars in that same time so strange that only these were built with no VIN blocks. As for all the blocks have the same casting dates, I think it was mentioned earlier (or maybe another thread) that engine were only cast certain days and a bulk supply was cast on that day and then used later. With a limited usage block such as a TA block there are only so many casting dates that are possible, not sure the exact number of different dates but I cant imagine over a few so odds are up for them having the same date. I have nothing to support this but I would bet as much as 50% of these cars experienced an engine failure of outside influence and although some were warrantied not all were and most of the warranty ones I have heard of didn't get the TA block anyway. The tracking down of the replacement TA block in my thought may have happened years later or in a customer pay scenario.

Anyway, I've said my peace and will leave it at that.

If you go back to the first page of this post, I answered your question.

This one stands out though;



Yes, impossible for a March built car to have an April casting from the factory. Second car, still impossible.

You can rephrase the question any way you like, but nothing will make the scenario you are evidently hoping for possible.

In addition to that.......

If you have not contacted me yet to see if I do know of the original engine for your car, you certainly can. Several people have been able to get their original blocks back to their cars just by asking to see if it has been reported in the last 20 or so years.

actually Berry you only answered part of the Question. once you made your answer I followed up with another post asking if you have any documentation to support that theory or is that or is that speculation from your past research? You see I value your opinion to a point , but to take it as fact without documentation would be something I would not bet on. Its fine with me that others look to you for answers. But, with out documentation the answer should start with "in my opinion". That is exactly why I asked if you had any documentation to support or deny the scenario's I asked about. So now I'll ask , do you have any documentation to support your statement? That is also why I asked if you would post the info that you have and vin's, tag info, decal pics and block pics if possible. If you don't have the time or if you simply don't want to I under stand ,but you could try share the info with rest of us. Speculation or Documentation which is it?

to correct you I didn't rephrase any questions it was always the same Questions with more details. but I must say you always answer the in same manner. but I have noticed that you avoid some questions or don't wish to answer. which ever it may be .When asked about a possible strike -no answer, about maybe cars pulled off line-no answer, and when gave your answer "impossible" I merely asked you if you had any documentation or was it speculation on your part thru your past research -no answer.
You have obtained a lot of information from members to build your data base, thought you like to help others figure out their info from what you have gathered.
some us have come up with Ligament questions and just asked if you have any documentation or if you could provide the info previously asked for to help themselves and others do their own research .
like I said earlier "opinons" are respected but sometimes they differ with others ,on the other hand "documentation" is "definite".

Lets try it this way with the dates of your own examples for the 'documentation'..........

FACTS;

1. The original Mylar door stickers had to show the actual build month & year per Federal Law. So the date shown indicates the FINAL assembly date when the fully completed car was physically ready to drive out of the plant.

2. As such, the Mylar door sticker was printed & applied right before each car left the plant.

So with those two facts in mind, if the Mylar door stickers on two of the three examples are actual originals showing March 1970, then it is impossible that they left the plant with engines cast in April.

So here is an elective homework assignment for you, note each of these things;

Date on the original Mylar.

Casting date on the engine.

Final assembly date on the engine.

If those three dates are original to any of the examples, neither of the last two dates will predate the date on the Mylar.

Hopefully that helps explain it?

Barry, do you mean it is impossible for a car with a March 1970 door tag to have an engine with an April 1970 casting daye?? Because the last sentence does not say that?? (PREDATE)??? The engine casting date has to predate the door sticker, correct???

That is what I said.

Definition of predate at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/predate if you need it?

I must be dumb. You say neither of the last two dates will predate (meaning to be dated before the talked about door tag) which means they will be dates after the door tag, which contradicts what you said earlier in the same post that a door tag in March cannot have a motor in the car which was cast in April???

Good catch, sorry everyone.

I am sick & on meds, I'll come back with a clear head when I am well.

Until then;

So here is an elective homework assignment for you, note each of these things;

Date on the original Mylar.

Casting date on the engine.

Final assembly date on the engine.

If those three dates are original to any of the examples, neither of the dates on the engine will be dated after the date on the Mylar.

Hopefully I got it right that time. More chicken soup & rest is on my menu.

I had ask about trans numbers because they were to my understanding stamped at the same time with the same machine. NortheastMopar do you have trans number information?

after a little "internet research" I came up with a few interesting facts.
1. Mylar sticker = Motor Vehicle Certification Label (official name)
2. content of certification = name of manufacturer, date of the applicable U.S. FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANARDS IN EFFECT ON THE DATE OF MANFACTURE SHOWN ABOVE.
3. The Label must be attached in a way that it may not altered or remover with out destroying it.
4. The Label must be made in contrasting color with block letters black in color and 3/32's tall
5. label to be attached on door near latch assembly (other locations provided also ,shortened for post).
there are more requirements but for the sake of necessity of the point I'm about to make I'll stop here.

the point I am going to make is not speculation, but more towards "documentation". meaning I obtained my information from a U.S. Government website, and am awaiting a printed copy of a Government Document. Certification Standards 49 cfr part 567.6 (1). the trickey part is finding the ordinal bill that was introduced in 1969 for the 1970 model year and that is the copy I am waiting to receive. as soon as i received I will post for all to see .
The point being that the manufacture had complete control of how they certified they were in compliance of FEDERAL MOTOR VECHILE SAFETY STANARDS. What Chrysler did was certify that the vehicle in question was "compliant" to the FEDERAL MOTOR VECHILE SAFETY STANDARDS in effect on that particular date. That is not necessarily the date it was manufactured ,but the date of safety standards that were in in effect at the manufacturing. the manufacture's were given several compliance statements to chose from and it was up to their discretion to chose which best fit their product. There was also no certain time period that the MOTOR VECHILE CERTIFICATION LABEL was printed or placed on the vechile other than before it left the manufacturing plant. The "Standards " amended quite a few times since then , But 1970 model year was the first for the certification label ,with the exception of the 1969 mid year Daytona which should be self explanatory. all in all I think that the certification sticker is not the actual date of manufacturing, but instead noting that the vehicle was built under those standards in effect on that date range. note that if it was ment to be the production date it probably had a day date listed. It was required to certify compliance with federal safety stanards.

Sorry, my 4 speed was a 71 dated tranny. I do not believe it has the close ratio gearbox that they put in the T/A cars. I think that the close ratio gears were maybe good on a winding track, but I like my 4 speed just the way it is. I would have to drive a T/A with the original close ratio to actually see how much different it really is. Maybe enough to win a race, but that was never a concern.. I like driving the car and am not into racing.

Sorry, I had gotten you confused with the OP since you were asking about the door sticker and the whole pre-date conversation.

The question had been ask of the OP about if the trans' had numbers in them. The assertion (or maybe his question) is that it is possible that the blocks came no numbers for the factory and not changed later in life. The point of the trans question was that they were stamped at the same time and if they had numbers stamped in them originally then it is highly doubtful the engine didn't get stamped, it is possible but unlikely. If the trans' in the cars in questions are not original then again support powertrain replacements through the years. I think the question of engine assembly date is also a very valid question in that surely even the OP would not consider that a engine being built significantly after the SPD could have come in the car originally. I believe based on common knowledge that the casting date is enough to blow the theory up but the OP doesn't what to believe that and yes I know many commonly held beliefs have been debunked over the years.

Trans numbers and engine build dates would be valuable info in this thread.

it seems that several members here that are confused or don 't have a "clear head" when asked about documentation, yet they still want to pass on information to others and expect it to be "known/accepted history". in my original post I had asked if anyone had any "info" on T/A or AAR built 3-70 to early 4-70. what I have received is several "opinions". as I have stated "opinions are respected and valued but sometimes differ with others". Opinions are usually supported based on some type of "documentation". what I clearly and respectfully asked is "do have any documentation "? Every time I ask about documentation the question is ignored! I receive replies like "its impossible "or "The original Mylar door sticker had to show actual build month & year per Federal Law." or "you are barking up the wrong tree". Those are all answers I received when asking about documentation.
I'll try this from another angle.On what dates and locations in 1970 were the SCCA's races scheduled? When was the first SCCA race actually held in 1970. On what deadline date did manufacture's have to comply with SCCA's application and requirements?
As the official T/A Registry you should have some of that documentation I would hope. If so would you please post?
If you would please ,The number of T/A and AAR's produced between 3-70 and 4-30-70 with vin #'s and other info if available?

Here's the SCCA schedule for 1970

If this helps you in your quest, my AAR is as follows:
-Door label: 3-70
-Fender Tag: 4-03
-Numbers matching engine & automatic transmission.

-Lou

Part of the problem here is that reality is sometimes ignored by the "experts" and their opinion becomes protocol for Industry possibilities. I've seen many times where an "expert" thinks that their years of research justifies them filling in the blanks and their limited knowledge about a topic becomes the new reality. I know of 2 documented St. Louis cars where their Engines were replaced AFTER the final Inspection had taken place. Apparently, the Worker who transported them to the holding area for shipping, got a little rambunctious and decided to have some fun along the way. They blew the Engine up and a replacement block was installed before the vehicle ever made it to the Dealership. I have also documented a vehicle where a quarter glass was dated 2 months after the VIN label date, the Fender Tag and other dated components on the vehicle. The Original Owner remembered that the quarter glass was broken at the Factory and it sat for 6 weeks while waiting for a replacement piece. Who knows why it took so long to get a replacement piece. One would think that they would have pirated one from the Assembly Line inventory but they obviously did not.

I also know of scenarios where cars were built, driven to an Inventory Lot, the carburetors were removed from those Inventoried vehicles, taken back into the Plant and used to complete the cars coming down the Assembly Line. None of these scenarios were written into the Engineering dialog but were realities that occurred to facilitate real World production. It's doesn't follow the rule but they are documented exceptions. The "experts" don't like for the average guy to discover these facts because it doesn't favor their perceived reputation. If they discovered or researched these odd scenarios, they would be screaming them from the roof tops to bolster their status in the documentation World. The fact is, there are exceptions to the rule and deviations from Factory protocol that are being discovered everyday. History doesn't change, only our awareness of it.

That how everbody learns...just to think it nobody took the time and tried to help with their opinions. As painful as it is to sometimes read through these topics a lot can be learned. How much further ahead would we be if nobody cared to share their knowledge and research?

I do agree with your last 2 sentences 100%.

I was curious about the two St Louis cars that you mentioned, how do you know that happened? Have you ever laid eyes on the cars to document them? For example were the VINs stamped on the blocks? It would be nice to hear more details.

Dave

I didn't see the Cars personally. The incidents were relayed by one of the people actually involved. While having Lunch today I brought this topic up to a Gentleman who works for me. Tom B. is a retiree from Chrysler and so was his Father. Both held executive ranks within the Company. He said in 1966, a Chief for an Atlanta Fire station was chosen to head security at the Daytona 500 Race. Tom rode with the Fire Chief on the way to the Race in a new Dodge Truck that was to take part in the Parade festivities. While en-route to the Raceway, the Engine in the Truck developed a Rod knock. They called Tom's Father (who was head of the Zone) to find out what they could do to fix the problem. Tom's Dad contacted a local Dealership in the area and instructed them to pick a vehicle from their stock, pull the Engine and swap it with the Truck's damaged one. Tom and the Fire Chief stayed at a Motel overnight while the Dealership pulled a 318 Engine from a brand new Car and swapped it with the one in their Truck. The Truck didn't even have 300 miles on it at the time and now had a non-numbers matching Block sitting in its Engine Bay. The new Car at the Dealership had to have a replacement block installed in place of its original one.

Think of the controversy this would cause if someone were to find the evidence of what had taken place during that ordeal. Things like this were never written into Factory protocol but occurred quite often.

I'm an engineer who has worked for a number of manufacturing companies over the years and I have to laugh sometimes when experts give their etched in stone versions of how something was done at a plant 40 or 50 years ago based on cars they've studied over the years.
I've requested parts for testing or study, then a year later been doing some housecleaning and find parts I didn't use. So I return them to the plant where they are put back in inventory and used on the line. I'm sure that happens all the time, so anyone saying parts should be datecoded within a month or two before a car was assembled are talking about how it typically was, but there were many exceptions.
I now work for a truck manufacturer, and sad to say, but many trucks roll off the line and have to go to Test and Tune or as we call it, "red tag", where they sit for weeks or sometimes months before they get repaired or sometimes a missing part is finally received and installed so the truck can be delivered to the customer.
Same happens with cars, probably since Henry Ford developed the assembly line.
But unless you can document it, there is no way to prove a part datecoded after a build date was original. You can argue to death that it "could have been" but there is no way to know for sure. I can go into one of the systems at work and check a truck by order number or VIN, and see if it was red tagged, and why. Records were surely kept back in the day, probably handwritten or printouts, but they are surely gone now. So again, no way to know decades later.
In the case of engines, I wonder what would have happened if an engine was bad on a newly assembled car and had to be replaced by the mechanics in a car plants "red tag" department. Would they have to stamp the VIN on the new engine they are installing, or would it have been blank?
I don't know the laws, but suspect the automakers are required to have the VIN on the engine of cars they build regardless of whether it was installed on the line or installed in the repair department before the car could be shipped.

Clueless, in 1966 Dodge cars and trucks had no VIN stamped on the engine block. So nobody would be able to see a non-numbers matching block in these 2 vehicles, thus no controversy.

"History does not change, only your awareness of it."

Let me be the first one to welcome Clueless to Moparts! Glad you can join us on this topic. Really looking forward to hearing more how you found us and more about the documented cases. Sounds like some really good information.

You'll find most of us here want to learn as much as we can and anytime we can see documents on unusual cases we're all eyes and ears.

So far all I've read is anecdotal hearsay. What documentation?

You missed my point. Regardless of the physical Engine stamping, the dates were cast into the block. In the scenario I mentioned, the new Car that had its Engine pulled (donated to the Truck) may have had a replacement Engine that was cast dated after the build date of the vehicle. Those are the types of occurrences that were happening during that time period.

There's a lot of "anecdotal hearsay" that's considered documentation. Here's another example of some "anecdotal hearsay" that some of us are able to learn from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-WhtU3sVa0

Thats too bad. I thought you had found the cars and there were some anomalies that you were going to share with us.

In this case I wonder what they did back in the day at the St Louis plant? Would have they replaced the engine and tranny as a single assembly? Just the engine? Just the short block? Restamped the VIN? Did the people involved mention what cars they were? I wouldn't mind hearing more details...its not like any of the people invloved could still work at Chrylser so there can't be any harm in telling the whole story.

Thanks,
Dave

The only information I can provide in some of these scenarios, is first hand information from the Employees who were involved. Like most people who work at their daily jobs, they didn't take the time to video or take pictures of every moment of their day. All they have to offer is "anecdotal hearsay" about the situations they were involved in. One of the stories told to me involved a Hemi B Body car. There was a group of people in charge of driving the cars from the St. Louis Assembly Line to the Storage Lot. Someone wrecked the Hemi while moving it to the Lot. They never knew who actually was driving the car because it was abandoned and no one admitted to being involved. He also told me about one Employee who got caught using a front loader to dump Hemi Blocks over the back fence area and coming back after hours to steal them.

The information I provided about the Truck having a new Engine installed was actually told to me by one of the guys who was in the Truck during the trip to the Daytona 500 Parade. He too did not have anyone formally "documenting" the ordeal but I have no reason to think he falsified the story. I have other Chrysler contacts who back stories such as these and claim it was almost a weekly occurrence in the way some of these cars were sold. They were not considered iconic vehicles at that time and Chrysler did what was necessary to sell them.

WELCOME BACK SUPER

Didn't you ask any more questions? Sounds like a missed opportunity. I would be curious how at that plant, on that shift, at that point in time, how they would handle that. How bad hurt was the Hemi...was it a rod hanging out the side of the block hurt, or a spun bearing, or a bent pushrod or the coil wire falling off?

Then what would be the next step?
If it happened on the afternoon shift would the shift manager try and hide it and get the car fixed right away?
Or if it was day shift would the whole plant management get involved and create a focus group to avoid such occurances in the future?
Do they bring the car back into the plant?
Do they replace the engine and restamp it?
If they do replace it and don't restamp it and then is it still the orignal engine?
Do they take the engine out from the top or the bottom?
If while unhooking the battery cable it is distroyed and when they put the car back together with a new battery cable without any paint overspray....is that considered original?
Or if you are getting the car judged do they deduct points because its not the orignal battery cable?
Do they donate the car to a local community college?
Give it away to Sox and Martin?
Does the plant manager drive the car for awhile and do they sell it as an used car with no warranty?

It would be interesting to me if we could hear the rest of the story. Are you still able to ask the people involved some more questions?

Dave (too)

I appreciate all of the questions but you have to remember that these inquiries are being asked almost 50 years after the fact. When these things were happening, they didn't have a future knowledge of what these cars would become. I actually did ask some of those questions but most aspects were not a consideration to those guys at that particular time.

As I'm typing this, I have a couple of FCA managers sitting here discussing these topics. They mentioned a program in the seventies & eighties called OEP. (Overnight Evaluation Program) They said that select manufacturing personnel would take random cars off of the Assembly Line, prior to their final Inspection, with the odometer not yet connected and drive them Home (overnight) to find any problems with the vehicle. This was to complete the final evaluation form. If anything was found to be an issue, the vehicle would be fixed, the odometer connected, the Certification Decal applied to the car and then it would be shipped to be sold as new.

In the late eighties, Chrysler changed the policy to mandate the odometers being connected before they were driven for their finalized testing. There's more to the story but the legalities do not permit me to comment further. Sorry!

There are a few on moparts that have spent most if not all of their working careers as UAW members. It usually takes 30 years of working at these plants to get a pension and most have put in far more than the 30 years that it takes. I am just enjoying the reading that has not sparked one memory of spending time in that Dungeon called an Automotive Factory. Maybe the people that had to get their hands dirty assembling and repairing and driving saw it quite differently.

I guess that works both ways. Lots of guys I worked with told stories with great details...almost like you could picture being there and watch it all unfold yourself. They usually started with hey Dave you remember that year the Leafs won the Stanley Cup...Oh sorry of course not you weren't even born yet and then continue on....

I could never repeat them and do them any justice.

I was just curious about those Hemi blocks that went over the fence...did the St Louis plant assemble their own Hemi engines?

Dave (too)

He didn't say that it happened at the St. Louis Plant. Some of the Men who were lifetime Chrysler Employees, told about the various things that happened in the Industry throughout the years. I never gave it too much thought because you can't do conclusive research on circumstances that were so randomly inconsistent. They may have affected the scenarios we are talking about but there was never a written protocol to benchmark those subjective events.

Its now been 5 days since I politely asked Berry if he would share the information he has collected from members and other sources; number of T/A's and AAR's and their vin numbers, Compliance decal sticker date, and fender tag, block date with or without , with pics of each if possible between 3-70 and 4-30-70. the request was made in order for others to do some of their own research or obtaining some documentation for themselves. His Website says that he enjoys talking to other enthusiasts sharing info and to help them. I understand that he claims to be a little under the weather, I truly hope that he is feeling better and taking some of time during his recovery to put together that spread sheet that was requested . that would truly help everybody.

"that would truly help everybody." Actually giving up any info he has would go against his policy of not sharing registry members information.You can request a spread sheet all you want but its not going to happen. He has already answered your question but it wasn't the answer you were looking for. I didnt see where you say that all these cars were original one owner or survivor cars so how do you know that the engines are original to the cars???

"I believe you have simply lucked up on 3 cars with service replacement blocks and yes, engines were cast in bulk and not every engine was cast every week."

My thoughts exactly if what he is saying is true. This post just seems like a fishing post to get people to post or send their broadcast sheets to someone who has bad intentions in mind. Trying to fill gaps on their spread sheet so they can be the next guru.

Also the Autodynamics Challenger had a black painted top from day one. The race cars had absolutely nothing to do with the options on production line cars. The acid dipped story is true they did cut a roof off another challenger but thats where it ends. Sam Posey told me the story as well but never mentioned anything about painted roofs. The race cars and production cars were 2 completely different animals. Also the schedule for the SCCA races doesn't have anything to do with production cars.

Not that you care about the truth but I dropped some parts off to him last Saturday and he didn't feel like coming out of the house to unlock the shop for me.

Why don't you post the VINs and info on the 3 cars you are questioning? It is possible that someone on here has more info on them.

yet another opinion! reminds of a soap opera "as the world turns".
You may be correct it may not come from Berry ,as you have stated," it goes against his policy". does the word hypocrite come to mind ? read his words on his website. Seems like an open forum ask for information and help.
I don't recall asking for any members information, only data on cars which he has collected thru members or documentation, which he has insinuated he has obtained. What I received was an opinion not an answer to my original questions. my follow up questions asked for "documentation". You are correct I did not receive the answer I was looking for.
You are Obviously another one of those people that can not comprehend the question asked or understand why I was asking.
of course I didn't say whether these cars had the original motors that is reason I had asked questions and for any documentation.( my investigation ) Into a scenario I stumbled upon. You may be correct I may have stumbled across 3 cars that have service, but it was enough of a coincidence for me to investigate?
Please show me where I have Asked anybody to post their broadcast sheet? Unfortunately I do not have a data base, I am just doing some research to satisfy my own curiosity. that my help others as well.
If I understand your post correctly nobody including myself has a right to question the "MOPAR GOD or his DECIPLES" on their speculations or documentation .
Its seems like you are trying to point some fingers. I am the original poster of this thread and I make no apologies for my enquires. You and others have tried to put a spin on this to protect "your" God.
Finally, to point. If it is me you are referring to that has "bad intensions", Please grow a set of Huevos be a man and put it on the table. I do take a large exception to your remarks .
As I was writing this another post was made. I'll answer it as short as I can . Why would I?

If I didn't care about the truth I wouldn't have asked for documentation!

Why would any hypocrite give you any information when all you are doing with your friend SD is to insult a member on moparts. 5 days is not a long time, it took God longer to create the universe. Barry dont bother adding any information to this post, no need to defend yourself here either. I hope that is why you have not posted again and realize this is not about Chrysler cars anymore. Since you have been on Barrys web site you had the opportunity to communicate with him for answers on what you have asked here and more via his site or his email. People wonder why the posts have gone done 50% on moparts this is a perfect example of that. I am going to watch the NFL playoffs, there are other things in life than waiting for answers to question for 5 days on a moparts post.

Have a great day.

in all honesty I have no idea who SD is but according to your post apparently he may have found a few holes Berry's "opinions "also as have others I've found out. I think I'll be ok without Berry's Questionable info. It may take a little longer but eventually I will obtain some a facts to find out the answers to my questions. As for insults don't believe I made any with the exception of the "Mopar God" thing but as one of his "disciples" I can understand your frustrations. You see I just simply asked for documents that could either confirm or deny my questions and all I got was opinions and treated like a mushroom,(kept in the dark and had manure thrown at me. So if you want to put a spin on my asking questions about the facts then that is ok with me . as one member says "careful your attitude is showing". As the world turns.

I only have one addition to the above remarks. Regarding the Autodynamice Challenger having a black painted top from day one?? I can tell you first hand, as I live right here. John Harkness who was part of the 1970 Trans Am car team, told me face to face that the 77 car was sent out after all the modifications were made and it came back to the shop painted in Sublime Green from top to bottom. John remembered the morning Sam Posey, who lived right around the corner, came into the shop and set eyes on the car for the first time. He walked up to the car and told them he hated the color and was not going to drive the green car. While standing right nest to the car, he told them to send the car back to the paint shop and to get the awefull green out of my face. He told them to paint the top black. Now I know that Sam talks a lot about a roof being cut off a car and changed out because of acid dipping. But I do believe John Harkness and his story and really feel these two stories are being mixed up. What I am saying is that both stories may be correct?? I, like the other poster on here was just trying to get a better understanding of why there were so FEW cars with the V02 code and why Plymouth did not even offer it. I know Sam's car had no fender tags or option codes, but I was told that the SCCA cars had to have any options available that the cars were run with, including colors. NOW, that is what I was told were the SCCA rules to enter a car. So, I always thought the V02 had to be added to the Dodge cars because Sam ordered that roof to get painted black as John Harkness told me. He also said he would never forget it, because Sam was so pissed about the color. Now, on the AAR/TA website, I allowed them to post my car due to them wanting to fact find info such as this?? They even mention if anybody has any further info to let them know so they can add it to the site. So, I am a little disappointed that I am sharing this info as it was told to me directly by John Harkness (look him up) and I am being told that this is not true but the story they tell is the correct one?? We could both have correct stories. Sam was talking about cutting a roof off at the track? I was talking about the car before it ever went to the track? Hey, I have no other intention here but to try and further the history of how these cars came to be. I also asked anyone here to show me a PLYMOUTH AAR order sheet regarding the existence of the V02 option code, but nobody has come forward. I gues that sheet does not exist? I also point to a reference above that says the Plymouth line did not have as many options as Dodge. Well, if you just do a search ro a 1970 Plymouth Barricuda or Cuda with a two tome paint job, you will find numbers of them all over the puter with pictures. So the option actually did exist in the 1970 Plymouth year. That is why I am so curious as to why folks are saying it was not available. All you have to do is search V02 1970 Barricuda and push the picture icon. So, yes, I am confused as well regarding the accuracy of this information, and I do find it strange that the folks who have gathered this info will not even share it with me, who was kind enough to bring my car to the forefront when asked??? I almost feel a little slighted by the keepers of these records. I see that Galen Govier charges $250.00 if you want to talk to him for 30 minutes??? I feel like I gave me info freely and now folks are trying to make money from the info I gave up freely,, but will not help me resolve my simple question that I have been trying to resolve for years. Not that I really care, as it is what it is. So why bother collecting any info at all????

I have a question that I want answered. Why can't you spell his name correctly Little Detroit? I'll give you 5 days to answer.

Two things;

1. I obviously can not share what I do not have.

2. Documentation. Here is teh most recent bloody snot rag. Just keep kicking me while i am down & out. I can take it.

I'll be back when I amm able to try & clean some of this mess up.

If you are gonna quote me, quote me right - it is documented.

And yes it is very appropriate in this thread.

Galen does charge and that is why a lot have lost respect for him, I do not know of a case where Barry or Jeff have charged anyone for information or help in retrieving original components for their cars. I said it once but I'll say it again, Jeff's site have a list of all the AARs known to him only the last 3 digits are Xed out to protect the innocent. They, both Barry and Jeff, have a privacy agreement with the people that contribute.

You have also not answered my question about the transmission numbers and the reason you should consider posting your info is you may find there is additional information that will be posted that you may either not know or have choose to ignore in an effort to make your car matching numbers with a replacement block.

On the lighter side of this I think I will respond to your questions.
1. the spelling of his name; see Berry's post 1/15/2017 5:02 pm , I think the spelling of his name was apparent.(answered in less than 5 days.)
2. made my first on 12/30/2016; took Berry 15 days to say I cannot share what I do not have. pretty much says it all.
3. never bothered to check transmissions.
4. mopar346 I think you watch way too much Dragnet.
5. mopar346 you are correct "your character is showing"

Would somebody please direct mopar346 back to the short bus.

Sorry to hear you're not feeling well Barry. Hope you're back to 100% soon.

So if you cant defend your position then you resort to insults, nice.

SO you went to the trouble of looking at the casting date on the engine but didn't bother to check the trans for a VIN number or the assembly date on the engine (assuming you don't have it since you answered that question yet either). Seems to me that would be fairly important info and useful to your cause IF it lined up with what you are looking to document. Is one of the 3 cars on your list yours?

Insult away I have no self esteem issues.

Alex Rocks!!!! I like the blue on the chair. Little brighter then B5, but cool.

this will be my last "post "on this subject, not because I am surrendering my search or "succumb" to the content this post has graduated too. this post originally started as a request for information from anyone with information on T/A's and AAR's. the first response was from ALASKAN_T/A. Recognizing his response as an "opinion" I merely asked if he had any documentation to support his statements. Evidently that is where I went wrong.
I have been subjected to numerous "opinion's" in response to my questions in order to avoid the production of the "documentation in support of their "opinions" to be a factual basis.
This has been one man's quest for answers to his personal curiosity.
Instead of replying as he did 5 days later('I can't give what I don't have '). I was subjected to questionable information with out documentation and ridiculed because I did not accept undocumented opinions as fact.
Alaskan_T/A has his own website listed as the "official T/A Challenger Registry" with lots of vin #'s and broadcast sheets listed as found and other info I assume kept private.
Because I dared to ask for "documentation" he has more or less he answered my question as no matter how you fraze the question you will not get the answer you desire, I have spoken.
Hence the "Mopar God" has spoken and his "deciples" have come to his side.
What this has turned into, instead of a car enthusiast asking for a little help to man trying to become the "Mopar God " that nobody questions.
I can put up with sheep following the shepard blindly but I havn't been blinded yet. but the turning point for me was when a member exploited his child over subject matter that has absolutely nothing to do with his child or his handicap. If its that important to you that you have to exploit your child to make a point about a hobby ... well I guess you win. It's just not that important to me.

Some good information in between the but something comes to mind on this thread.

Heard this a long time ago. One should never judge another, but if you are so inclined to do so, Judge them on their abilities and not yours. Get well Barry!

Little Detroit,

I am going to postulate that I am not the only one that thinks Moparts would be a better site without you on it!

As much as it pains me I will defend Little Detroit a little on this, he was just taking a shot at me cause he didn't want to answer my question and I don't really feel he had any ill will towards the disabled. Special kids offer special challenges and special rewards and there are few of us who have not been touched by the love or perseverance they show and as well as the people that care for them.

I usually don't participate in back & forth banter threads but a personal nerve was struck and I overreacted. For that I apologize and am removing myself with a self imposed time out

Mike... Nobody on earth could answer your question. In fact... You knew full well when you made your post that one of the cars you mention had the engine replaced... the owner of that car told you so... you yourself had contacted me a while back about your car which is one of the 3... For all the things you have said about Barry and wanting absolute proof and documentation... There is no such thing because what you posted is something you made up. whatever that reason is only you know. But the engine in your car and the other car are not the original engines. You see when they stamped the engines they also stamped the trans so all you have to do is look at the transmissions and see if the vin number is stamped on the pad and that would give you your answer. There is no paperwork or spread sheet or documentation from Chrysler. If you want to know about a specific AAR or T/A you can contact myself or Barry and either of us would be glad to tell you if there is any information out there.

Hey, I chimed in with an answer to the question back on Dec 30th, but now in all the turmoil, I have forgot what the question was...

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how we got from SPD, door stickers and casting dates to painted tops, but then again, I muddied the waters myself with bench seat info.

My T/A has an SPD of 4/15, a casting date of 4/6 and a 4/70 door sticker. I wonder what the actual build date was, because I can't possibly imagine that the motor could be done and in the car in nine days time after casting. I'll try to remember to look at the block for the assembly date.

Even if the door sticker is the "be all end all" date, it still covers a whole month, and let's say the sticker says "3/70" and the line worker is placing it on the car on 4/1. Do you REALLY think he went back for a NEW, "correct" sticker? I have a bridge and some swampland for you if you do.

If I understand correctly the build sheet will have a time that it was on the line on it, if you have that. It would interesting to know the engine build date and time on the sheet. MY car was a 407 car and is believed to been on the line on 403, a friends is a 403 car and it was done in March, door sticker is 03/70, my door sticker had already been removed when I got my car. Point is they had been running a head of schedule a week or so before your SPD.

The date stamped into you K frame is pretty close to when the car started assembly and your engine assembly is not the front of the block.

unfortunately it looks like I've been drawn into this conflict once more. Lets see if I can clear it up for you.
now which questions is it that nobody on earth could possibly answer , could it be;
1.anybody got any accurate info?
2.trying to find out why no vin on block?
3.were blocks only cast on certain dates?
4.did they cast blocks in batches?
5.can you help?
6.in other words these could be original blocks?
7.does anybody have a data base similar to the charger 500
registry
8. would you mind sharing info with us?
9. Since you have been known for having the largest data base on T/A and AAR's and have had some ties with the Chrysler Historical Society I would like to know if you have any documentation to either support or deny any of the scenario's . and finally would it be possible for you to make a spread sheet with all the vin's for T/A's and AAR's with SPD's, decal date, and fender tag date along with casting date and whether vin is on block? I do know its a lot to ask ,but from what I have read you have the largest data base and it speed things up for everybody if you were able to share the info. thank you.
10.do you have any documentation to support your statement?
11. speculation or documentation which is it?
12. on what dates in 1970 were SCCA races held?
13. on what date did manufactures have to comply with SCCA's
application requirements?
14. does the word hypocrite come to mind?
Those are the questions I asked, which ones are impossible for anybody on earth to answer?
Now here's where this starts to get interesting to me. I've
been notified that you edited your post. It seems that you used a gentleman's name in your "original post" to prove a point. Wasn't there a statement about privacy?
"They, both Barry and Jeff, have a privacy agreement with the people that contribute."
The word Hypocrite keeps coming to mind. It seams that your standards of privacy are only in affect when it suits your needs.
While it is true that I had knowledge of the gentleman's info on his aar and had discussed it with him , and yes he did say he had a piece of the warrantee tag still attached to his block. That being said I did not say I only had info on 3 cars, I said I came across 3 that "all" had similar issues.( take notice I didn't use any names)
I have a few others but they are distant and not confirmed as of yet. It seam's that you have jumped the gun a little to defend your friend. Which tells me a little about your investigation skills.
Its amusing to me that you waited until after I post that this my last response on this subject to take your "cheap shot" at me.
As for your statement ..." There is no such thing because what you posted is something you made up" . without getting into a he said she said battle, I have this to say.
I asked for "documentation to either confirm or deny my scenario's. So I wasn't really trying to make it to my liking I just wanted proof either way. But it seams that all was not lost ,What we have realized is that there are those out there that let their EGO"S get the best of themselves and try to fill in the gaps with their opinions and disguise them as fact.
The last person that tried to pull that off has been very low keyed since it bit him in the butt.
I have noticed that 5 of my fans (sarcasm)have there own registry. Is there a pattern there?
by the way I almost .let this slip by .
I did not ask for any spreadsheet from Chrysler ,only asked if Berry had the info on all the T/A's and AAR's in a spread sheet or if would do that for all of us to see. you might want to read things over 2 or 3 times till you get right.
I hope this clears it up.

Let's try it this way.....

Mike, do you honestly believe that some cars built in March left the factory with engines cast in April in them?

well according to you the "Mylar sticker" is the actual build date. But the correct name for it is a Compliance Decal, If you carefully read what is printed on the Compliance Decal it is self explanatory. read what it says not what you think it says.
"This vehicle conforms to all applicable U.S. FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFTEY STANARDS IN EFFECT ON THE DATE OF MANUFACTURE SHOWN ABOVE", meaning it was built in compliance with the regulations that were in effect or use at the date shown above.
In my "opinion" on what I read or have read upto this point leads me to believe that there is no actual way to verify the actual finish date of the vehicle. Therefore in my "opinion" the only factual date basis for the production is the "spd" as you call it. The production of the was started on a certain date when the order was taken or scheduled by Chrysler, the order taken ,broadcast sheet filled out, fender tag made, order placed in line and then what ever happens next assembled or delayed for what ever reason. That is my "opinion" so far and is exactly why I asked the Questions I asked. as for the "Compliance Decal" it was most likely the last ID. placed on the vehicle however the date listed on the decal was merely a confirmation of standards in effect at that time.
With all of that information and the fact that I stumbled across 3 vehicles roughly built in same time period ,has T/A block unstamped, and all have the same casting date block, some shortly before "spd" and some after "spd". enough of a coincidence for me to ask Questions, not mention the Welborne - Andlucci thing. So the answer to your question do I think it is possible yes I do think it is possible, but not for certain one way or the other until I find out if there are more cars with the same scenario's . Do you really stand by your statement that the "Mylar Sticker" is the actual finish date

OK.

I have no evidence to support your theory, so I can not help you.

If you can prove your theory with your own research, your findings will be interesting to read.

Best of luck with your quest.

It does seem doubtful that a door sticker dated March would have a block dated April in a car, however I would rather call it doubtful than something more affirmative without providing the proof?? Just my opinion. 50 years ago is a long time. My car is listed on a site as having the rare V02 painted top. The owner of that site actually asked anyone who had further info regarding the option to contact him. I was trying to share some info I got from one of the men who actually worked on and saw the car go through the painting stages. He told me the story which I posted, but now it appears that others have their own version and I am bewildered by the fact that these folks won't even consider my info as valid?? To me, that is strange. Oh, and that is how we went from tags to option codes? It wasn't really about tags and option codes as it is about trying to make your version more correct than someone elses version. I also found it really fascinating to find Galen charging 250.00 to talk to someone for 30 minutes using the information folks gave up freely to him??? Is he really a hobby guy or a businessman looking to profit from the free info he acquired. Personally, I could care less about all this crap. I really don't care how much any of my cars are worth. I just love working on them and driving them and sharing thoughts with other Mopar Hobby People. But I do understand both sides of what is being said here.

If things cant be backed up by real documentation then its just pure speculation.


Thats not directed at anyone here, just my thoughts of all mopar info in general.

Too many times ive seen things "shaped" only to be disproved.

But as for the TA cars, mine has the org. stamped block, so does my friends.

Oddly a t/a motor out of a wrecked chally in the mid 70-s with 6k miles I used for parts had no vin and was a family members and was not replaced.

I havnt looked much into it but ive a block ive thought was always a t/a casting in my old dirt track car dated late 69 because its got the webbing of a t/a block and I dont know of any other block.

Do you guys ever take into account there are alot of t/a cars not put on the web, vins not shared? Not everyone like the internet.

From growing up around many t/a cars, they were beat, beat and beat hard, flogged worse then most hemi cars id seen.

Rev them to the moon or until a rod bearing spun or broke, and many times that was the case.

I have talked to a few registry members who had assumed they had their original blocks - until I called them & told them their original blocks had surfaced.

Some were pulled & replaced early on when the original or later owners had them & they just kept the damaged engines.

For anyone with an AAR or T/A, if you have not checked to see if your numbers matching motor has been reported yet, send me an email.

Same if you have an AAR or T/A block loose or in a car with a partial VIN on it.

Several engines & some transmissions have been reunited with their original cars in the last 20 years, it does happen.

Maybe Little Detroit's original engine will surface.

I started reading the whole thread again since some posts were added while I was out.



So, has anyone with their own theories done this yet?

Also, as Kevin stated;



If your transmission & original & matches your car, the engines & transmissions were stamped one right after the other with the same stamp set. So if one matches & the other has a blank VIN pad, it was replaced at some point.

Impossible to answer, there is no way to know that.

I'll quote myself from page 1;



The builds were also mixed with other models, other engines, other trim levels.

So, without actual build records from Chrysler, the question is impossible to answer.

My registration forms have a line saying that personal data will not be given out.

There are a lot of people who do not want there VINs posted. If they choose too, that is up to them - it is not my place to do so.

I am not going to betray the trust they have put in me by posting data on their cars just to satisfy your request.

Dang, I missed a fun post.

There are no experts or gods or disciples here in this thread. Chill out dude. lol

Dang! Now I feel insulted!

Not.

You need to relax dude.

I was clearing out my spare tool box the other day and ran across this. Though you guys might dig it.

That was in response to Charles when he asked;



I do not have one. I have seen one, but I do not recall who had it. Ken mentioned that he is looking for one, Bangert is also looking.

So, 'I can not share what I do not have." Got it?




OK, so you want the research of others to be dumped in your lap but you are not checking what you have access too?

Well, hopefully you now have a better understanding since I tried to clear some of it up?

But you do come across as insulting.

You have a wild theory. I have nothing to prove it, so the burden of proof is on you, not me.

Some questions have no answers, hopefully I explained that above to your satisfaction.

But start with the dates & stamps on your own car. Start your own spread sheet of the date coded items. No need to share it, just do it for yourself.

I did that with my 4-door Valiant. 403 SPD, March sticker, Hamtramck build, numbers match. It was a fun exercise, nothing found on the car past the first few days of the last week of March.

Researching your own car is fun, try it.

If calling it names in the process makes you feel better, go for it.

lol

so if I understand you correctly everybody donated their the info of their car to you and for what reason was it again? Was it just for your own personal pleasure? It seams that you may have already violated some of their trusts, check out your own website and past posts. I assume that by personal info you relating that to car info correct? Your attitude in your post 1/28/17 @ 12:17 pm really explains the whole "Mopar God " thing and really can't get over the bloody snot rag you posted, the maturity of a 12 year old, and you expect people to take you seriously? As I said earlier I think I'll get along just fine without your help. I can see that your arrogance is leading down the same path as the other guy.

One main purpose of a registry is reuniting original items, broadcast sheets, engines, transmissions etc.

The photo was posted to show I really was sick since some doubt was apparent. I can not afford a doctor visit, so a doc's note was not in the cards. I am not over it entirely yet, but I am feeling a lot better. Thanks for your concern.

I have mentioned ways you can help yourself gain knowledge. Start with your own car. You have access to it, we do not.

I have no expectations on how people perceive me. From the amount of email I got about this thread alone though, I think that most people are quite OK with me.

You have an interesting theory, so do some research. Start with your own car with the things noted by a few here about what to look at.

Happy hunting, research is fun.

I mentioned the spreadsheet I started for my March built, 403 SPD 1970 Valiant. Here is a list of some of the date coded items these cars can have. Obviously, some will not apply to an AAR. (AC as one example)

This list was compiled with help from Scott Smith, Dan Pausch, Kent Johnston, Ola Nilsson, Robert Schirmer & Grant Piche.

You can enter the relevant data into a spread sheet for your AAR if you choose to.

You may also find date codes on other parts to add in as you go.

AC clutch field coil *
A/C evaporator/drier *
AC hose *
Air Grabber switch
Alternator
Battery
Bellhousing *
Blower motor *
Bumper jack mechanism
Calipers *
Caliper mounts *
Carburetor
Carpet tag – front
Carpet tag - rear
Clock
Coil
Console *
Convertible boot cover
Dash pad *
Differential ring gear
Dimmer switch
Distributor
Door jamb switches
Door panels *
Engine casting date
Engine final assembly date
Engine mounts *
Exhaust manifolds
Engine main bearings
Engine rod bearings
Fan belt *
Fuel pump *
Gauge cluster
Harmonic balancer
Headlight switch
Heads
Headlights
Headlight door motors
Heater box *
Heater fan / AC switch *
Hood hinges *
Hood latch
Horn
Horn Relay *
Horn switch
Intake manifold
K-frame
Lower control arms
Muffler(s)
Mylar door sticker
Oil sender *
Outside mirror glass *
Plug wires *
Power steering belt *
Power steering hose *
Power steering pump final assembly day *
Power window motors
Radiator
Radio
Rear window defogger
Rear window defogger switch
Rear end gear housing casting date
Rear valence
Scheduled production date from fender tag
Seat belts
Seat frame - rear, bottom
Seat frame - rear, top
Seat frame(s) front
Seat tracks front
Seat upholstery
Shocks *
Space Saver spare inflator bottle
Speaker(s)
Starter nose
Starter case
Steering column *
Steering pulley *
Sure grip carrier
Tachometer
Temp sender *
Thermostat housing *
Tires
Transmission casting date
Transmission final assembly date
Transmission mount *
Transmission tail shaft
Trunk mat *
Torsion bars *
U-joint straps
Vinyl top
Voltage regulator
Washer motor
Water pump *
Water pump housing *
Wheels
Windows
Wiper motor
Wiper motor switch

Another example.

My T/A had a 417 scheduled production date.

The final assembly date on the numbers matching engine was April 22nd.

The Mylar door sticker showed April.

So, based on those three things, I deduced that it was built later than hoped for (after the SPD) but before May.

So, sometime after April 22 but no later than April 30.

I do safety certification for a major OEM and use to work for Chrysler back in the day. What is being referred to as the the mylar is the safety certification label (already discussed) that is required by the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) to be applied to a vehicle as it completes its production and certifies that the car meets all safety regulations in effect on the day of production and can be sold to the public. Once a vehicle is certified, it can not be uncertified. The month and year of production must be the month and year shown on the label, but mistakes can and are occasionally made and since this label is not part of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) (Part 571 of the CFR), it is not recallable if incorrect and would be considered an inconsequential non compliance if the date was wrong because someone in the factory did not update the software or typeset. That does not preclude a vehicle from being certified. Also, since the label is typically put on on the final assembly line, the vehicle still has some "build" to go through, which includes the rolls test, usually one of the last things before the vehicle is shipped, If something goes wrong on the rolls, such as they blow they engine, it would go to the repair hole, where it may sit for a while until there is time to work on it, especially if it requires an engine change. If it was an engine change at the factory, they would restamp the VIN on the block before they shipped it, as that is a anti theft requirement. So it is feasible that a vehicle has a March build date and an April engine if 1) the Cert Label was incorrectly printed or 2) there was an engine failure after the cert label was applied and the engine was replaced in the factory because the cert label would not be updated in this situation because you can not uncertify and re-certify a vehicle.
I did not read the entire post, so I hope this point has not already been discussed.
My 2-cents.

But......

If an engine were replaced, re-stamped or not - it is still not the original engine.

Correct, it is the second engine in the vehicle, just a thought on how this could happen.

So, if a car were to leave the factory and be sold at a dealership without its "original engine", would this have to be disclosed to potential buyers in order to avoid federal fraud charges?

To the factory, what is/was "original" and "matching numbers"?

Again, don't forget these cars were rushed to market to meet SCCA requirements and this was the 1970 model year which broke sales records for Chrysler across the board. Having woked in factory environments, I have no doubt that shortcuts were taken and rules broken. I can almost hear bosses from the top down screaming "Who cares? Just get the damn cars out the door!"

Replacing an engine at the factory is not fraud and does not need to be disclosed. There are many repairs done to vehicles in the plant for a variety of reasons, none of which are disclosed to the eventual buyer. The plant buys off on the vehicle as complete as ordered and safety and emissions certified and basically sells it to the sales arm. If there is damage in transit, then local and state laws take over as to what needs to be disclosed to the buyer, for example, in Michigan, more than $750 in repaired shipping damage needs to be disclosed.

Exactly my point.

The parts in the car at the point of sale are the ORIGINAL parts.