Posted By: TX9H6E4CUDA
Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/05/12 01:56 AM
So on my 1971 b body 383 HP, a/c, 727 what came factory? The Holley or Carter?
Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/05/12 02:02 AM
All '71 383 4bbl E & B-bodies were HP orange & HOLLEY.
Posted By: TX9H6E4CUDA
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/05/12 02:06 AM
Quote:
All '71 383 4bbl E & B-bodies were HP orange & HOLLEY.
Excellent thank you for the help!!! Now I gotta fix the Holley I have (its kinda rough but very restoreable).
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/06/12 10:58 PM
Quote:
All '71 383 4bbl E & B-bodies were HP orange & HOLLEY.
Really?
What about early build N96 & N97 equiped cars w/o AC?
I have what is believed to be the original 650 AVS in a box from the RR I just picked up and the car has not been touched very much from what I can tell.
On the car now is one of the 440 AVS's I believe. I gotta check the #'s.
Posted By: 340SHORTY
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/08/12 05:52 PM
My 71 RR with air grabber hood and no A/C had a Holley originally..
Posted By: YYZ
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/08/12 08:41 PM
Early build N96 cars would have a Holley 6193
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/10/12 04:59 AM
Okay good to know. The intake has got to be the same though...right? I thought Holley and the Carter's had different mount patterns.
Does N97 make a difference?
Does N97 make a difference?
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/16/12 07:56 PM
No, no difference. However, Galen's book lists 71 HP 383's to have Carter AVS carbs, part number on the build sheet as #44. My 71 Satellite with the N code HP 383 with 4 speed and A/C, lists the Holley R4667 , part number 48 on the build sheet. Same 4160 Holley with or without A/C. The book does not list it as an HP, but it is. Galen's book is confusing with listing the Carter 6125S for the 71 383 HP's.
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 12:01 AM
This topic has piqued my interest.
The carb on my 383 AG car now is a AVS model 4966S which the FSM lists as standard for the non HP 440 w/ auto.
The FSM also lists the 6125S as std. for 383 with auto as well without a reference as to HP or not. So they did put them on some 383's apparently.
However, for the 4160 Holley the FSM lists the following for 383:
R-6191A and R-4668A for manual/auto respectively with the Heated air intake system
R-6193A and R-4735A for manual/auto respectively with the Fresh Air Intake system (Air Grabber)
So it appears that holley is correct for my application.
However, I have heard from the mopar rumor mill that it was common for dealerships to replace the Holley's with AVS's under warranty because apparently there were a lot of leakage and heat related problems with the Holley's. I am not sure on numbers and what carb was used, but I have heard this from multiple sources.
So...do I keep the AVS and call it a day 2 warranty mod or should I try and hunt down a 4735A Holley?
The carb on my 383 AG car now is a AVS model 4966S which the FSM lists as standard for the non HP 440 w/ auto.
The FSM also lists the 6125S as std. for 383 with auto as well without a reference as to HP or not. So they did put them on some 383's apparently.
However, for the 4160 Holley the FSM lists the following for 383:
R-6191A and R-4668A for manual/auto respectively with the Heated air intake system
R-6193A and R-4735A for manual/auto respectively with the Fresh Air Intake system (Air Grabber)
So it appears that holley is correct for my application.
However, I have heard from the mopar rumor mill that it was common for dealerships to replace the Holley's with AVS's under warranty because apparently there were a lot of leakage and heat related problems with the Holley's. I am not sure on numbers and what carb was used, but I have heard this from multiple sources.
So...do I keep the AVS and call it a day 2 warranty mod or should I try and hunt down a 4735A Holley?
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 12:12 AM
If you have your broadcast sheet go by the number it reflects
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 12:31 AM
Quote:
If you have your broadcast sheet go by the number it reflects
Hey Scott! Thanks for coming in...I was considering calling you on this.
Unfortunately I don't have the BS. Its an LA car...of course I have not pulled the seats yet.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 12:49 AM
I wouldn't go carb shopping until you've exhausted your Broadcast Sheet search, some LA cars had sheets!
That said, if it was sold new in CA it most likely had the Holley
That said, if it was sold new in CA it most likely had the Holley
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 01:16 AM
My friend who worked at a Plymouth dealership in 1971 said they repeatedly replaced the Holley's with a "conversion kit" 71 AVS 6125S. If you have an air conditioner engine carb, it has the hot idle compensator bar in it as well. Maybe Air Grabbers as well. I think that's what its called.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 02:40 AM
1971 - factory installed - 383 4bbl automatic
it's pretty straight forward C body OR B&E bodies
if B&E body it's "fresh air" OR "non-fresh air"
383 automatic - C-body blue engine ---------- Carter 6125S ---------- part number 3512 844 on b'cast 44
383 automatic - E & B-body orange HP engine ---------- Holley R4668A ---------- part number 3512 830 on b'cast 30
383 automatic - E & B-body - with "fresh air" (N94/N96) orange HP engine ---------- Holley R4735A ---------- part number 3512 842 on b'cast 42
it's pretty straight forward C body OR B&E bodies
if B&E body it's "fresh air" OR "non-fresh air"
383 automatic - C-body blue engine ---------- Carter 6125S ---------- part number 3512 844 on b'cast 44
383 automatic - E & B-body orange HP engine ---------- Holley R4668A ---------- part number 3512 830 on b'cast 30
383 automatic - E & B-body - with "fresh air" (N94/N96) orange HP engine ---------- Holley R4735A ---------- part number 3512 842 on b'cast 42
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 02:59 AM
I see...cool...good to know!
What line on the BS is the carb listed on?
I am guessing it was likely a holley carb. I now know that the engine and trans have been out and it looks like some work was done to it. The car is fairly close to original though and I am wrestling with either going in that direction or "upgrading".
I have no issues with putting a holley on her as i am much more familiar with tuning them, but I am hesitant to put such a rather small one back on.
I have been leaning to a correct 440 AVS like the 4968S if I can find one.
What line on the BS is the carb listed on?
I am guessing it was likely a holley carb. I now know that the engine and trans have been out and it looks like some work was done to it. The car is fairly close to original though and I am wrestling with either going in that direction or "upgrading".
I have no issues with putting a holley on her as i am much more familiar with tuning them, but I am hesitant to put such a rather small one back on.
I have been leaning to a correct 440 AVS like the 4968S if I can find one.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 03:14 AM
If you decide on a 4968 I may have a line on one.
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 03:23 AM
The 4968 is for a 440 HP auto. Is that what you need? I thought you needed one for your 383? The 4968's are big money. Scott, are you sending one to Mike R? 
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 04:54 AM
Quote:
The 4968 is for a 440 HP auto. Is that what you need? I thought you needed one for your 383? The 4968's are big money. Scott, are you sending one to Mike R?
I am considering it. I am either considering the stock approach or possibly go for the "day 2" concept where it was an old school trick to swap on a 440 carb for some more get em up.
Right now I actually have 2 4966's
The one on the car is actually pretty decent. My only complaints are that whoever tuned it before did not tune the mixture evenly which has left a slight flutter at light loading and I get a pretty noticeable lean bog if you mash it. The car has definitely been babied. If you are light on the throttle she will putter right along all day and even get up if you gently open it up.
Scott you don't have a Holley 4735 do you? Are they decent carbs if rebuilt properly? I think 625 cfm is small for a 383 IMHO.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 05:32 AM
Quote:Quote:
The 4968 is for a 440 HP auto. Is that what you need? I thought you needed one for your 383? The 4968's are big money. Scott, are you sending one to Mike R?
I am considering it. I am either considering the stock approach or possibly go for the "day 2" concept where it was an old school trick to swap on a 440 carb for some more get em up.
Right now I actually have 2 4966's
The one on the car is actually pretty decent. My only complaints are that whoever tuned it before did not tune the mixture evenly which has left a slight flutter at light loading and I get a pretty noticeable lean bog if you mash it. The car has definitely been babied. If you are light on the throttle she will putter right along all day and even get up if you gently open it up.
Scott you don't have a Holley 4735 do you? Are they decent carbs if rebuilt properly? I think 625 cfm is small for a 383 IMHO.
LOL LIST 4735..wait until you try and find one! like NON EXISTENT... and big big $$$$$ SOLD 1 for 550.00 a few yrs ago...RARE RARE
Posted By: 72roadrunnergtx
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 05:55 AM
I will provide further first hand back-up of the existence of factory provided Carter conversion kits for the Holley 4160 applications, performed the conversion many times myself during my time at dealers back then. They were packaged as complete kits, fuel lines, choke springs, any other hardware required, fully covered if under warranty. Installed correctly, appeared completely factory installed. Can’t tell you just how many 4160’s wound up in the trash, considered pure junk then by those who serviced them and many under hood fires were blamed directly on them.
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/17/12 06:06 AM
Quote:
I will provide further first hand back-up of the existence of factory provided Carter conversion kits for the Holley 4160 applications, performed the conversion many times myself during my time at dealers back then. They were packaged as complete kits, fuel lines, choke springs, any other hardware required, fully covered if under warranty. Installed correctly, appeared completely factory installed. Can’t tell you just how many 4160’s wound up in the trash, considered pure junk then by those who serviced them and many under hood fires were blamed directly on them.
Yeah i read your posts on the bird nest which is why I am wondering if my 4966 AVS was a warranty replacement. I mean everything is where it should be, choke, hose routing, kick down, etc. The only thing it does not have is the ground wire to the dizzy, but the car was converted to the MP electronic ignition sometime in its life. I just was thinking if I could rebuild a 440 AVS for a bit more umpf and it would be a reasonable stock substitute.
i figured the original 4160 holley is next to impossible. Its not the end of the world I am more than happy to live with the carb(s) I have. I just wondered why I had an AVS.
Posted By: bee1971
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/20/12 02:56 AM
Quote:
I will provide further first hand back-up of the existence of factory provided Carter conversion kits for the Holley 4160 applications, performed the conversion many times myself during my time at dealers back then. They were packaged as complete kits, fuel lines, choke springs, any other hardware required, fully covered if under warranty. Installed correctly, appeared completely factory installed. Can’t tell you just how many 4160’s wound up in the trash, considered pure junk then by those who serviced them and many under hood fires were blamed directly on them.
I bought my 71 Bee from the original owner back in 1984 - The motor had not been touched and the car still retained most of its original paint and interior - 100% #s matching - The car was also Ziebart undercoating straight from the dealer i was told from original owner as the Ziebart sticker still to this day resides in the rear window - I remember when i pulled the original motor there was Ziebart undercoating all over the valve covers / wiring / air cleaner / intake and fuel lines + Carter 6125S
Car was built in St Louis December 1970
Whos to say that Chrysler on late build cars didnt install the 6125s at the factory ??? Hell my 71 Bee has a 1972 Charger Heater Core in it from the factory
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/22/12 01:04 AM
Quote:
Whos to say that Chrysler on late build cars didnt install the 6125s at the factory
The build sheet is the ultimate truth to what was supposed to be on there from the assembly line. Now whether or not the dealership switched things, IE interior, radio, spare tire, Carter AVS upgrade, only the dealership work orders know.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/22/12 01:07 AM
Quote:
LOL LIST 4735..wait until you try and find one! like NON EXISTENT... and big big $$$$$ SOLD 1 for 550.00 a few yrs ago...RARE RARE
Yep, and of the several hundred carbs that have come and gone from my inventory over the years I have seen exactly one (1) single example that's been available for sale, it's customer owned and still sitting here. He wants a ton for it but rightfully so, they are likely one of the rarest Holleys you'll ever have to find if you need one.
Posted By: 340cpe
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/22/12 02:42 AM
Scott how about a holley 4667? I have an early built 71 Bee W/O fresh air, and on the build sheet it has a 48 for carb. Well if I am doing this properly and I believe that I am the 48 is the last two digits of the Part# of the carb which is 3512848. That part# translates to a Holley R4667A. Have you ever seen one or know where I could find one? I could never find one and opted for the Factory Service Manual list# of 6191. Would love to find the right carb as it is a very original car. This Carb question on these 71 383 seems to come up here often. I seem to hear something new everytime that it does!!
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/22/12 04:15 AM
All great info.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/22/12 05:02 AM
This is my latest list of available customer owned Holley carb cores. These are not mine, prices vary depending on what the owners want for them. I do not sell these cores as is, only as restored units. Some are pretty rough and will require another core carb to scavenge good parts from.
4735 -2190
4668 -2020 Body Only
4367 -0389
4367 -3569 Body Only
4737 -1200
4749-3 2095 Body Only
6191 -1271
4749-3 -1190
6191 -2580
4749-3 -1789
6191 -2780
4749-1 -1082 Top Bail Broken
4668 -2550
4668 -1821
6193 -2730
3918 -2017
4368 -2819
6191 -2580 Top Bail Broken
4366 -0780
4749-2 -3392
4217 -2809
6169 -3170 Body Only
4749-3 -0700
4368 -2679
3918 -2357
4166 -3148
1850-2 -3028
4367 -2619
3667-1 963 Part# 2843151
4749 -0224
4367 -3539
4735 -2190
4668 -2020 Body Only
4367 -0389
4367 -3569 Body Only
4737 -1200
4749-3 2095 Body Only
6191 -1271
4749-3 -1190
6191 -2580
4749-3 -1789
6191 -2780
4749-1 -1082 Top Bail Broken
4668 -2550
4668 -1821
6193 -2730
3918 -2017
4368 -2819
6191 -2580 Top Bail Broken
4366 -0780
4749-2 -3392
4217 -2809
6169 -3170 Body Only
4749-3 -0700
4368 -2679
3918 -2357
4166 -3148
1850-2 -3028
4367 -2619
3667-1 963 Part# 2843151
4749 -0224
4367 -3539
Posted By: m46rat
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/22/12 05:20 AM
Quote:
Scott how about a holley 4667? I have an early built 71 Bee W/O fresh air, and on the build sheet it has a 48 for carb. Well if I am doing this properly and I believe that I am the 48 is the last two digits of the Part# of the carb which is 3512848. That part# translates to a Holley R4667A. Have you ever seen one or know where I could find one? I could never find one and opted for the Factory Service Manual list# of 6191. Would love to find the right carb as it is a very original car. This Carb question on these 71 383 seems to come up here often. I seem to hear something new everytime that it does!!
What is the SPD of your Bee? I have a super early one of these that Scott restored for me, I think it may be the only one on the planet. It is dated 0540. Holley does not even list this carb in their carb guide book, and they made it! Scott has a bunch of pictures of it that he could post. I am out of town right now so I can<t post any.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/22/12 05:24 AM
Quote:
This is my latest list of available customer owned Holley carb cores. These are not mine, prices vary depending on what the owners want for them. I do not sell these cores as is, only as restored units. Some are pretty rough and will require another core carb to scavenge good parts from.
4735 -2190
4668 -2020 Body Only
4367 -0389
4367 -3569 Body Only
4737 -1200
4749-3 2095 Body Only
6191 -1271
4749-3 -1190
6191 -2580
4749-3 -1789
6191 -2780
4749-1 -1082 Top Bail Broken
4668 -2550
4668 -1821
6193 -2730
3918 -2017
4368 -2819
6191 -2580 Top Bail Broken
4366 -0780
4749-2 -3392
4217 -2809
6169 -3170 Body Only
4749-3 -0700
4368 -2679
3918 -2357
4166 -3148
1850-2 -3028
4367 -2619
3667-1 963 Part# 2843151
4749 -0224
4367 -3539
i have:
LIST 6191 x 2 [2260 & 2280]
LIST 6193 [2370]
LIST 4737 [0120]
71 4 speed idle solenoid also almost NOS
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/22/12 06:48 AM
Here's Dwights 4667, I don't have the after resto pics but here's proof they exist!
.jpg "7345428-4667HolleyD(3).jpg")
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/22/12 06:49 AM
2
.jpg "7345429-4667HolleyC(4).jpg")
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/22/12 12:57 PM
Watch it Scott. The black Suburbans are rolling your way !!.. Nice
Posted By: 440beep
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/24/12 12:06 PM
Quote:
I see...cool...good to know!
What line on the BS is the carb listed on?
I am guessing it was likely a holley carb. I now know that the engine and trans have been out and it looks like some work was done to it. The car is fairly close to original though and I am wrestling with either going in that direction or "upgrading".
I have no issues with putting a holley on her as i am much more familiar with tuning them, but I am hesitant to put such a rather small one back on.
I have been leaning to a correct 440 AVS like the 4968S if I can find one.
i have one a 4968 avs
i looking for a 4967 avs
holley 4160 are
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/24/12 01:49 PM
Quote:
This is my latest list of available customer owned Holley carb cores. These are not mine, prices vary depending on what the owners want for them. I do not sell these cores as is, only as restored units. Some are pretty rough and will require another core carb to scavenge good parts from.
4735 -2190
4668 -2020 Body Only
4367 -0389
4367 -3569 Body Only
4737 -1200
4749-3 2095 Body Only
6191 -1271
4749-3 -1190
6191 -2580
4749-3 -1789
6191 -2780
4749-1 -1082 Top Bail Broken
4668 -2550
4668 -1821
6193 -2730
3918 -2017
4368 -2819
6191 -2580 Top Bail Broken
4366 -0780
4749-2 -3392
4217 -2809
6169 -3170 Body Only
4749-3 -0700
4368 -2679
3918 -2357
4166 -3148
1850-2 -3028
4367 -2619
3667-1 963 Part# 2843151
4749 -0224
4367 -3539
Okay,
Sorry for a what is probably a dumb question, but what is the second series of digits symbolize?
Thanks,
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/24/12 03:44 PM
The second series is the carb assembly date code, 3 digits are the day of the year, last digit is the year)
Posted By: 340cpe
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/27/12 02:32 AM
M46rat what do you have that 4667 on? My SPD of my Bee is August 7th 1970. As I said earlier per the build sheet it should have the 4667. I have the 6191 but the dte on it is late July of 70. The Carb is about the only major component that is not right on the car.
Posted By: m46rat
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 08/27/12 04:26 AM
It is sitting in a cozy box in my basement. An important difference between it and a 6191 is that the base has no provision for the solenoid. My only 71 383+4 car is a Barracuda convertible with an SPD of June 1, 1971. I have a 6191 for it, also done by Scott.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 03/29/13 06:50 PM
i have: 70-71 HOLLEY N96 SHAKER ram air carbs..
LIST 6191 x 2 [2260 & 2280]
LIST 6193 [2370]
LIST 4735 x 2 [2020 & cant rem]
LIST 4737 [0120]
LIST 6191 x 2 [2260 & 2280]
LIST 6193 [2370]
LIST 4735 x 2 [2020 & cant rem]
LIST 4737 [0120]
Posted By: 71birdJ68
Re: Holley or Carter? 1971 HP 383 with A/C - 03/29/13 11:07 PM
My 71 AG RR had a holley. On the lean bog thing, mine did the same thing, and I remember that there was a plastic ramp that worked the accelerator pump or something and a grove had wore in it so the pump didn't keep up with the demand, it lagged behind on it pumping action.