Moparts

I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!!

Posted By: Troy

I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 06:43 AM

After three attempts with rubber lip seals, hours of research on the "do's and don't" on installing rear main seals, close to $100 of gaskets, sealer and seals AND the clean up work trying to make everything look good again. All of this could of been prevented if I just went with my gut feelings and installed a Rope Seal to begin with.

I just got done with my 472 Hemi and after starting it up for the first time I saw a little leak at the rear main. Time went on and it did not get any better. I pulled the pan and the seal and I did not see anything out of the ordinary but the lower seal was very wet so I new I found the location of the problem. I thought that just maybe it was just "one of those things" and I put it all back together.

Well that was a mistake!! It leaked even worse than before!! So I started reading and researching and found that I'm not the only person with these problems. One of the "solutions" was to shim the seal. Add a .020 thick casket behind the seal. This will apply more surface contact with the seal to the crank. It sounded good...... but it did not work at all!!! That made one heck of a mess!!!

With all that BS out of the way I'm going to tell you all what I have found out. Here are the parts that I'm working with.

Second generation, Mopar Performance Hemi Block. (not a World Block)
Started with Aluminum Billet Seal retainer but went to factory retainer.
Eagle 4.150 crank with knurled seal surface.
Started with Felpro seal, then Mopar Performance seal.

Now the fix!! I should done this to begin with.

Remove old seal and clean everything, crank, seal retainer mounting bolts, everything.
Use rope seal Victor Reinz part number JV551. FelPro has them as well.
Go to Napa and buy tool #492 also known as "Sneaky Pet" rope seal installation tool.

Step 1: Measure seal retainer. It should be 3.000 /- .015 If it is taller than that, remove excess. Dry fit into block and the engine block oil pan surface and the seal retainer should be flush. Then remove.

Step 2: Take new rope seal and place it in the seal retainer. Take a large socket and press and form the seal into the retainer. Form the seal to the point where the seal is uniformed and fits nicely in the retainer. The ends will hang out by 1/2" on either side. Take a new razor blade and cut the ends off BUT leave 1/16' extra on both ends.

Step 3: Carefully remove seal out of the retainer and spray JB80 or other spray lube on both sides of the seal. Take your new Napa seal installation tool and thread it around the crank where the seal goes. Hook you formed rope seal on the end of the tool. Apply more JB80 to the seal. With help from a friend have them start to rotate the crankshaft while you pull the seal into the block. This tool is so cool!! You will see how the little jaws that grabs the seal is the same size as the grove the the seal sits in. When the seal is going through the block it pinches the seal and hold onto the new seal. Keep pulling till the seal just starts to come through the other side and then stop and remove tool.

Step 4: Take the seal retainer and a center punch and make 6 marks in the area where the side seals lay. These little punch marks will help hold the side seals in and keep them from sliding down during install. Take the rope seal and place it in the retainer and like before form it to the retainer like before. Again cut the extra off but remember ti leave the 1/16" extra. Remove seal and apply sealer to the retainer where the seal lies. Reinstall seal into retainer and press firmly to make sure seal is in place.

Step 6: Go back to the seal that is in the engine block....take a long screwdriver and push and form the ends of the seal so it does not lay on the engine block where the seal retainer meets the engine block. Just do your best to push all those threads to the center of the seal. Now do the same thing to the seal that is in the retainer. Apply a dab of sealer to the ends of the seal and a VERY thin coat of sealer it the ends of the retainer where it meets the block.

Step 7: The Victor rope seal comes with these cardboard type side seals. Take these side seals and dunk them in oil....You must be kinda quick when doing this because they will start to swell. Take the oiled side seals and place them on the seal retainer with about 1/4" sticking above the retainer. Quickly install the seal retainer into the block. When you push the retainer up and in the side seals will slip some but when everything is in correctly the side seals should be flush or have 1/16' sticking down. Install the two mounting bolts and your almost done.

Step 8: (optional) I took a 1" wide piece of sheet metal and but a very slight bend in it. I then put 3" long bead of sealer on it. I threaded my new tool up behind the block where the seal retainer meets the block. I forced the bead of sealer into the small gap where the seal retainer meets the block. I then drew the tool down from behind the block and that slight bend I put in the tool helped force the sealer into this gap. I did this two or three time and I saw the sealer being forced into that gap. I did this for a little extra security.

Bolt the pan back up and you should be good to go.

I know many of you are saying that rope seals rob horse power. I believe that they might at first but when they get broken in I think that the HP loss is unmeasurable.

Some say that if you just shave the seal retainer that it will clamp down a little harder on the crank and the seal will seal. The problem with that is now the "crush" on the seal is no longer round and it will leak even more. This is why the retainer should be 3.000 and not much less.

I just wanted to give you all my Hope it helps.

Thanks, Troy

Attached picture 6890472-TroyDart10_2_11Lg01.JPG
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 07:29 AM

The Knurled crank surface was the first clue that you should have run a rope seal first time out....general rule, knurled-rope, smooth-rubber, nothing wrong with rubber seals, as long as the crank surface is designed for it,...I'm old school myself and prefer rope seals, I've had more fuss with rubber seals too, than what they're worth,...glad everything worked out for you Troy in the end,....when you going to post some pics of that toy?

Mike
Posted By: quickd100

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 11:10 AM

Troy; Sounds like alot of work. I've only had one rear main leak in dozens of bb mopars. It was a rope seal that died. I've used the rubbers seals for about 30 years without a problem. One of my buddies last winter encountered problems with his world block. Ended up having to disassemble the motor and have it machined.Dave
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 11:36 AM

Quote:

Troy; Sounds like alot of work. I've only had one rear main leak in dozens of bb mopars. It was a rope seal that died. I've used the rubbers seals for about 30 years without a problem. One of my buddies last winter encountered problems with his world block. Ended up having to disassemble the motor and have it machined.Dave

Been down that road too. Like teh rubber seal and not had a problem. used many.
Posted By: 3ddart

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 01:04 PM

glad you got it straightened out! now as mentioned before lets see some pictures of the beast! fwiw the people on here will appreciate you effort more then most you will encounter once you start driving it. i put about 500 miles on mine this summer doing cruises since i couldn't race and unless it was viewed by a hardcore mopar or old school racer most didn't even realize what the car was. typical cmment was " oh look, a big motor in a dart". dave

Attached picture 6890575-hemidart@minerva2.jpg
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 07:05 PM

I would like to have a dime for every rubber seal that I have installed and worked. Most of the time they just seep a little and we live with it and we call it good.

When I googled this problem there were many people with this problem and I just wanted to post what I have found.

I will be posting more pictures of this project very soon!!

Troy
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 07:26 PM

.....ok, here a picture to tie you over..

Attached picture 6891057-IMG_0107.JPG
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 07:43 PM

I have been allways affraid on use the rubber seal. I have changed twice in 10 years, but the original never leaked in 20 years before.

Now that I'm working on the 450 stroke, was thinking about

Thinking now on the rope seal back... I think I can find dozens OF THOSE NOS AROUND in an Old Mopar dealer.

I guess there is not a problem using a NOS one ?
Posted By: HPMike

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 08:16 PM

The problem is the knurling on the crank. I have all the Chinese cranks sent to my crank grinder for check and correct anyway. We discovered that a .006 cut on the rear main seal surface knocks down the high spots and provides a smoother working surface. ALL of the premium cranks (Callies, Crower, etc.do NOT use the knurling and they never give you any issues with leaks)..I always use the orange "Fluoroelastomer" seal. It is the highest quality available, as far as I know. No leaks...

MB
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 09:35 PM

Quote:

The problem is the knurling on the crank. I have all the Chinese cranks sent to my crank grinder for check and correct anyway. We discovered that a .006 cut on the rear main seal surface knocks down the high spots and provides a smoother working surface. ALL of the premium cranks (Callies, Crower, etc.do NOT use the knurling and they never give you any issues with leaks)..I always use the orange "Fluoroelastomer" seal. It is the highest quality available, as far as I know. No leaks...

MB



Mike I wonder if that knurling issue, you aren't the first to suggest this, will over time eat up the rope seal and cause a leak?

We used an eagle crank on the enginemasters build and had a weeping rear main seal, it used the orange lip seal.
Posted By: RemCharger

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 10:03 PM

Quote:

.....ok, here a picture to tie you over..

I LIKE THAT!
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 10:08 PM

Quote:

.....ok, here a picture to tie you over..



When is it going to be painted ?
Posted By: HPMike

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/27/11 11:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The problem is the knurling on the crank. I have all the Chinese cranks sent to my crank grinder for check and correct anyway. We discovered that a .006 cut on the rear main seal surface knocks down the high spots and provides a smoother working surface. ALL of the premium cranks (Callies, Crower, etc.do NOT use the knurling and they never give you any issues with leaks)..I always use the orange "Fluoroelastomer" seal. It is the highest quality available, as far as I know. No leaks...

MB



Mike I wonder if that knurling issue, you aren't the first to suggest this, will over time eat up the rope seal and cause a leak?

We used an eagle crank on the enginemasters build and had a weeping rear main seal, it used the orange lip seal.



I had an Eagle that absolutely kicked my asz. Anything I did-it leaked. That's when I took a hard look at that knurling. I used a jewelers loupe and looked at the way they cut that. Too many jagged "peaks". My theory was it was tearing up the seal. Since then, I have probably used over a dozen more Eagle's, machined the seal surface and never had a problem. I can only assume that "fixed" it. I also discovered a problem with the billet rear main seal caps. They "shroud" the rear main cap and don't allow the oil to drain back to the pan fast enough. I cut a relief in them to "unshroud" and assist drainage. Interestingly, the billet cap that Best Machine sells is real nice. It is made with a huge relief to really open it up. NEVER had any issues with those. I don't know who is making them for B/M, but they got it nailed.

As for the rope seal, I have no real experience, other than OE stuff years ago. I might be leary to use one on an aftermarket crank for precisely the reason you mention. Glad it worked for the OP, just



MB
Posted By: IMGTX

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/28/11 02:04 AM

Sweet car

Not to beat a dead horse but
knurled crank = Rope seal
Smooth (or worn down knurling) = Lip seal.

That's the way I have always built my engine no leak problems.
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/28/11 02:04 AM

Quote:


Mike I wonder if that knurling issue, you aren't the first to suggest this, will over time eat up the rope seal and cause a leak?

We used an eagle crank on the enginemasters build and had a weeping rear main seal, it used the orange lip seal.



One of the things I was looking at is the knurling and this is what I have found.

First off all of the factory stock cranks are knurled..... all of the early big and small blocks came with a rope seal so I don't believe there is an issue with a knurled crank and a rope seal used together.

One thing I did was that was very interesting was this. I installed a lip seal up in the block. I then applied a very thin coat of white grease on the crank where the seal rides. I then rotated the crank to see what the pattern looked like. I was surprised that the seal lip does not ride on the knurled portion of the crank. The seal lip contacts the crank in front of the knurling....between the knurling and the rear main cap. I was shocked to see this but I never done this before. Learn something new every day!!

One more thing that I saw today that blew me away. I was at a friends shop today and I saw something that just killed me. There was a aftermarket billet seal retainer just sitting there. Next to it was a factory seal retainer. I matched the two of them back to back and the overall height was the same BUT the aftermarket cap....where the seal sits was OFF CENTER by .040!! That is a MILE off!!!! Tomorrow I will go back and take a picture for everybody viewing pleasure.

Attached picture 6891553-IMG_0115.JPG
Posted By: lahatte

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/28/11 04:22 AM

Regarding where the seal rides, 2 questions...

Was the crank all the way back, as in, the end play?

Was the spot where the seal was possibly a worn knurled area?

Thanks.
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/28/11 05:15 AM

Quote:

Regarding where the seal rides, 2 questions...

Was the crank all the way back, as in, the end play?

Was the spot where the seal was possibly a worn knurled area?

Thanks.



Thrust is at minimum spec.....if I remember it's at .007 and where that seal rides it about .030 in front of the knurling.

New Eagle crank so the knurling is new and looks good.

Here is a picture showing where a lip seal rides on the crank. It is far in front of where the knurling is.

Attached picture 6891861-rearmainseal012.jpg
Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/28/11 05:40 AM

looks like it might be in backwards, hard to see . should be open part of lip toward front of block.so pressure in the engine forces it tight to the crank.
Posted By: lahatte

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/28/11 05:46 AM

That's what I was thinking too, but I'm hardly an expert. Indeed, hard to tell in the picture, but there is the line on the crank where it looks like the seal has rubbed away the grease.
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/28/11 06:01 AM

....no, it is in correctly. The lip goes to the inside of the engine. The design is so when oil is pressed to the seal it forces the lip into the crank making a tighter seal.

I am 80% sure that the leak is not due to oil leaking between the crank and the seal but rather between the seal and the engine block/seal retainer......that is my thought.
Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/28/11 06:04 AM

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/28/11 02:23 PM

Quote:

Glad it worked for the OP, just



MB



We'll see if it works for the OP , I would imagine it will take a little time to tear it up if that is what did in his lip seal ...

Here's hoping it works for you Troy
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/28/11 02:27 PM

Quote:


One more thing that I saw today that blew me away. I was at a friends shop today and I saw something that just killed me. There was a aftermarket billet seal retainer just sitting there. Next to it was a factory seal retainer. I matched the two of them back to back and the overall height was the same BUT the aftermarket cap....where the seal sits was OFF CENTER by .040!! That is a MILE off!!!! Tomorrow I will go back and take a picture for everybody viewing pleasure.



Gee, I seem to remember that exact issue with a certain sellers cap ...

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 12:05 AM

Quote:

....no, it is in correctly. The lip goes to the inside of the engine. The design is so when oil is pressed to the seal it forces the lip into the crank making a tighter seal.

I am 80% sure that the leak is not due to oil leaking between the crank and the seal but rather between the seal and the engine block/seal retainer......that is my thought.



First off, your seal does indeed look to be in backwards. Th edge of the seal makes a sort of V, the point of which should point to the back of the block.

Second of all, if the retainer is too tall your issue is the retainer, NOT the seal.

Finally, crap parts is still crap regardless of the price, coolness factor or bling. The OEM retainer worked for years, why change it.
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 12:05 AM

Today I installed another rope seal in a friends car. Tomorrow we will see if it is fixed. He is on his 4th try. On try second try this is the cap that he took out. Look how off everything is. The mounting holes are off, the crank and seal area are shifted off to one side. I can't believe this is sold to the general public!!

Attached picture 6892919-rearmainseal024.jpg
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 12:06 AM

....

Attached picture 6892920-rearmainseal029.jpg
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 12:23 AM

last one.

Attached picture 6892957-rearmainseal025.jpg
Posted By: Sinitro

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 12:27 AM

Quote:

Today I installed another rope seal in a friends car. Tomorrow we will see if it is fixed. He is on his 4th try. On try second try this is the cap that he took out. Look how off everything is. The mounting holes are off, the crank and seal area are shifted off to one side. I can't believe this is sold to the general public!!



Hmm..
That other car may be that B7 Charger...

Just my $0.02...
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 04:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

....no, it is in correctly. The lip goes to the inside of the engine. The design is so when oil is pressed to the seal it forces the lip into the crank making a tighter seal.

I am 80% sure that the leak is not due to oil leaking between the crank and the seal but rather between the seal and the engine block/seal retainer......that is my thought.



First off, your seal does indeed look to be in backwards. Th edge of the seal makes a sort of V, the point of which should point to the back of the block.

Second of all, if the retainer is too tall your issue is the retainer, NOT the seal.

Finally, crap parts is still crap regardless of the price, coolness factor or bling. The OEM retainer worked for years, why change it.



From what I read, Troy is using a OEM retainer.

The retainer that was pictured as "off" was another one from a friends shop.
Posted By: Barnabas_Kriss

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 06:44 AM

I prefer the rope seals too. The 440 in my challenger has been together for 12 years, and the rear main seal is still bone dry!
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 06:57 AM

Quote:

Hmm..
That other car may be that B7 Charger...

Just my $0.02...




Well yes it is!! How did you guess?!?
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 07:02 AM

Quote:



From what I read, Troy is using a OEM retainer.

The retainer that was pictured as "off" was another one from a friends shop.



Correct....and correct.


I just wanted to post those pictures of the aftermarket retainer to show people the things that they need to look at when installing one of them.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 07:08 AM

Quote:

last one.



That picture is not showing on my screen. Maybe upload it again?
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 07:39 AM

fixed...
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 02:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:



From what I read, Troy is using a OEM retainer.

The retainer that was pictured as "off" was another one from a friends shop.



Correct....and correct.


I just wanted to post those pictures of the aftermarket retainer to show people the things that they need to look at when installing one of them.



Odd, I never had an issue with rubber seals there. Of course all my parts (crank, retainer, etc) were stock. MP sold (sells?) a special rear main bearing with a groove in it for leaky situations like this, maybe there is something they know?
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 02:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:


One more thing that I saw today that blew me away. I was at a friends shop today and I saw something that just killed me. There was a aftermarket billet seal retainer just sitting there. Next to it was a factory seal retainer. I matched the two of them back to back and the overall height was the same BUT the aftermarket cap....where the seal sits was OFF CENTER by .040!! That is a MILE off!!!! Tomorrow I will go back and take a picture for everybody viewing pleasure.



Gee, I seem to remember that exact issue with a certain sellers cap ...





Posted By: THESHAKERPROJECT

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/29/11 05:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Regarding where the seal rides, 2 questions...

Was the crank all the way back, as in, the end play?

Was the spot where the seal was possibly a worn knurled area?

Thanks.



Thrust is at minimum spec.....if I remember it's at .007 and where that seal rides it about .030 in front of the knurling.

New Eagle crank so the knurling is new and looks good.

Here is a picture showing where a lip seal rides on the crank. It is far in front of where the knurling is.

.......... Actually the only time I had one that never leaked was when I installed it BACKWARDS from the above pic. I always thought the knurling was there to direct the oil back into the engin and that the seal had to ride in the knurled part of the crank as long as the knurling was smooth. Funny that when I had the motor re-build the seal was installed the CORRECT way (same crank/sealholder and block)and then it leaked like crazy. On a recent build, I used the newer orange seals (440 source)with some hylomar in the groove befor the seal and the seal installed with the lip inward and got a good seal with that motor.
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/30/11 01:20 AM

I have two updates for you all.

On my Dart, I just came back from a 25+ mile cruse and there was no oil on the crank at all. I had some engine oil on the trans but it was all residual oil left over from the past leaks. So far she is looking good.

On the Charger that I put a rope seal in yesterday....she too is looking good. We started it up this morning and let her run for 25 minutes and she is looking good as well. One thing that I forgot to mention yesterday about the Charger. That crank in that engine is a Callies crank with NO knurling at all....she is polished smooth.

Ones again, I'm not trying to tell you all that rubber lip seals don't work. I have installed many of them with very few problems. What I am saying is if you have a problem with a rear main leak and you know you installed it correctly don't rule out the old fashion rope seal. However me on the other hand will never install a rubber seal again!!
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/30/11 04:50 AM

Glad ya got it. I've got a couple going together & after your thread I'm undecided which to go with as I have several rope seals handy & I think both cranks are heavily knurled
Posted By: coro500net

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/30/11 11:50 PM

How hard is it to install block side of rope seal with engine in car?
I am one rubber rear main seal #3 (tried all style rear caps)so I am ready to try a rope seal.This is on a 67 440 and it does have the knurl.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/31/11 12:20 AM

Quote:

How hard is it to install block side of rope seal with engine in car?
I am one rubber rear main seal #3 (tried all style rear caps)so I am ready to try a rope seal.This is on a 67 440 and it does have the knurl.



Troy just did it twice in the last few days. Once on his car and once on that Landy built Hemi Charger.
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 10/31/11 01:48 AM

Quote:

How hard is it to install block side of rope seal with engine in car?
I am one rubber rear main seal #3 (tried all style rear caps)so I am ready to try a rope seal.This is on a 67 440 and it does have the knurl.



It's not hard!! Read the first post on this thread and it will walk you through it. If you have any question, just ask!!

Here is a picture of my car after a 25 mile drive. Looks good so far!!

Attached picture 6895629-10_29_11TroyDartSm2.JPG
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 11/02/11 11:42 PM

New update.

I just got my order in from Summit Racing and the FelPro rope seals are here!! They were only $6.45 each BUT I don't like the side seals at all. The rope it's self looks good but they come with a rubber looking round side seals that are 1/2" to short. I have no idea what you should do with them.

PS....I put another 20 miles on my Dart and all is dry, thank God!!
Posted By: bobs66440

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 11/30/11 02:53 PM

Quote:

Today I installed another rope seal in a friends car. Tomorrow we will see if it is fixed. He is on his 4th try. On try second try this is the cap that he took out. Look how off everything is. The mounting holes are off, the crank and seal area are shifted off to one side. I can't believe this is sold to the general public!!

I just found this thread. Can someone tell me what vendor's retainer this is? I have a billet aftermarket retainer on the engine I am putting together and would like to avoid any problems if possible.

Could it have been made in response to this?
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/archive/index.php/t-23510.html

Thanks.
Posted By: babarracuda

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 11/30/11 04:05 PM

I must be a lazy old shade tree mechanic. My 410 stroker leaked and after two seals. I wasn't going to pull the engine to fix it. TTI W2 headers and a Milodon pan make dropping the pan cruel and unusual punishment, at least for this 70 year old. As a last resort I put in a quart of Lucas stop leak. Guess what No leaks. I ran it at Topgun and everything checks OK without pulling ther pan. We will find out next Spring when I change oil.
Posted By: dodgeboy11

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 12/01/11 06:18 AM

Looking past the point that I hate eagle crankshafts, that knurling is designed for rope seals. When I would polish the crankshafts after cleaning them for the last time I would spend some time with a narrow sanding belt on the sealing surface of the crank. I was worried about my seal leaking on my 440 so I cut .010" off the seal retainer. Well, it leaked like no other on the dyno so I was forced to pull the pan and replace the seal retainer with one that hadn't been cut, but just cleaned up on a flat surface with some fine sandpaper. One new half piece of seal and the new retainer later, no leaks. Good thing too because I didn't put it back on the dyno and my next test session was in the truck. God was looking out for this idiot.

I'm not against rope seals. I feel you did what you had to as that knurling was in the earliest mopars out there and all they had for seals were rope seals.
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 12/01/11 05:43 PM

I don't know the specific purpose intended by that knurling, nor have I looked at a crank or rope seal that closely, but I just had an unrelated discussion with an oil expert about the fine details of different blends of ATF, so I'm inspired to throw in my .02:

Here's my assessment.

A lip seal will ride on a thin oil film on a journal. That film actually does the sealing during rotation while protecting the lip of the seal. If that boundary film can escape, though, oil will begin to seep out. So add some pumping grooves (the knurling) so that crankshaft rotation keeps the oil film in place (picture waves that keep a floating object near the shore).

I suspect a rope seal is more porous and allows the oil to penetrate it, which then swells it against its sealing surface, and it is kept cool at the rotating boundary by the absorbed oil (which is continuously refreshed to some extent by oil splash). I'm guessing that it has a different boundary layer, perhaps one that is a very tight matrix that prevents the oil molecules from escaping to an extent that would manifest into a user-noticeable amount (aka 'a leak').

Or maybe I'm completely FOS.
Posted By: bobs66440

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 12/01/11 08:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Today I installed another rope seal in a friends car. Tomorrow we will see if it is fixed. He is on his 4th try. On try second try this is the cap that he took out. Look how off everything is. The mounting holes are off, the crank and seal area are shifted off to one side. I can't believe this is sold to the general public!!

I just found this thread. Can someone tell me what vendor's retainer this is? I have a billet aftermarket retainer on the engine I am putting together and would like to avoid any problems if possible.

Could it have been made in response to this?
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/archive/index.php/t-23510.html

Thanks.

Anybody?
Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 12/03/11 04:44 AM

i replied once before but I'm going to add a few more points. apply red silicone under the seals,in the groove,just enough so as not ooze out.put some between the block and retainer and a dab on the seal ends then tighten down,this is where it leaks.put a little on the end of the side strips and slide in. but remember this whole area has to be dry, no oil what so ever or the silicone wont stick.let silicone cure for a day. done many engines and no leaks. this operation is just as important as all the big stuff and you can't be in a hurry.same as the oil pan,no oil, torque to factory spec's, no more drip pans on the floor. almost forgot,apply a VERY thin film of Vaseline to the crank journal surface before installing the retainer
Posted By: 70runner

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 12/03/11 07:43 PM

Quote:

i replied once before but I'm going to add a few more points. apply red silicone under the seals,in the groove,just enough so as not ooze out.put some between the block and retainer and a dab on the seal ends then tighten down,this is where it leaks.put a little on the end of the side strips and slide in. but remember this whole area has to be dry, no oil what so ever or the silicone wont stick.let silicone cure for a day. done many engines and no leaks. this operation is just as important as all the big stuff and you can't be in a hurry.same as the oil pan,no oil, torque to factory spec's, no more drip pans on the floor. almost forgot,apply a VERY thin film of Vaseline to the crank journal surface before installing the retainer



pretty much what I did on my recent 440 build. Used the 440source viton seals, slight offset, lubed contact area with clevite bearing guard. Stock steel crank out of 68 Imperial. No leaks.
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 12/03/11 07:56 PM

Put the motor together in my Superbird in 1992,my wagon 2yrs ago both rubber seals and neither one has ever leaked a drop.
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 12/08/11 04:59 AM

Quote:

Put the motor together in my Superbird in 1992,my wagon 2yrs ago both rubber seals and neither one has ever leaked a drop.



Hi Bill, hope all is well.

The more I read and the more I see how some people have problems and other people don't.....I'm starting to see a common problem. It seems like many of the people that do have problems have after market cranks. Maybe more and more people are just building stroker engines and fewer people are building stock engines. I don't know what the answer is.
Posted By: KillerCuda

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 09/10/12 03:25 AM

i would like to thank troy for this thread! i have the same combo, 472 hemi, early second gen mopar performance block, eagle crank with grooves. i have had that damn engine out three times for issues, and the rear main being a killer as of late......

after getting no help or support from my engine builder in florida, (i paid A LOT of money for this engine, kind of sad that he took this route with me) i ended up following troy's lead, and going with a rope. i have a little moisture back there, (only have thirty miles on the latest seal), but compared to the water works i had with the other two lip seals, i'll take it.....

i think you might be onto something, saying some people have issues, and others don't, and that maybe it does have something to do with aftermarket parts. both lip seals looked ok, cap measured out ok, (used two different ones) but they just didn't work, no matter how careful they were installed.....

anyway, thanks again troy!

Attached picture 7372452-hemiengine3:4.jpg
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 09/11/12 01:31 AM

Very glad it worked out for you.

I was just outside looking at my engine and all is still well.
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 09/21/12 08:07 PM

I just got three more seals off of Ebay!!

FelPro number is BS11748
Posted By: fuseable

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 09/23/12 04:35 AM

What are the 2 small rubber peices that come with the Victor Reinz part number JV551 rope seal kit? They are to small to be side seals.
Posted By: Troy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 09/24/12 01:22 AM

Quote:

What are the 2 small rubber pieces that come with the Victor Reinz part number JV551 rope seal kit? They are to small to be side seals.



That is for both big and small block. Those two small rubber parts are for a small block....they fit into the cap and seal it to the block.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 06/06/13 06:14 PM

Quote:

I just got three more seals off of Ebay!!

FelPro number is BS11748



Troy how is this seal holding up ? I was told by the shop I have been going to recently that these seals are made of something like fiberglass and don't work very well. They suggested that I get rope seals from Best Gasket, they are a graphite material but they are not cheap. I just ordered them from Egge Machine , can not buy directly from Best, 25.12 each ... OUCH
Posted By: kilroy

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 06/07/13 10:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I just got three more seals off of Ebay!!

FelPro number is BS11748



Troy how is this seal holding up ? I was told my the shop I have been going to recently that these seal are made of something like fiberglass and don't work very well. They suggest that I get rope seals from Best Gasket, they are a graphite material but they are not cheap , I just ordered them from Egge Machine , can not buy directly from Best , 25.12 each ... OUCH .



Only ouch if it leaks, if it doesnt itll be the best 25 buck you ever spent.
Posted By: KillerCuda

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 06/08/13 04:00 AM

Quote:


Troy how is this seal holding up ? I was told by the shop I have been going to recently that these seals are made of something like fiberglass and don't work very well. They suggested that I get rope seals from Best Gasket, they are a graphite material but they are not cheap. I just ordered them from Egge Machine , can not buy directly from Best, 25.12 each ... OUCH



i believe you are correct on the fiberglass make up. i installed one in an engine 11 years ago, and it's leaking, started about six months after installation. i installed this felpro in my same hemi combo as troy, but it leaked. i probably chalk that one up to installer error, even though i thought it looked good upon install and later, removal.

i also installed one of the graphite ropes in my gto, (had VERY troublesome problems getting any seal to work, so i went to the graphite rope), and it has been great. that being said, i firmly believe in the graphite rope. i could not drag the graphite rope seal into/around the hemi crank like the fiber ones, so beware if that is your plan, they don't really like being installed that way, crank out worked best for me, as per the instructions as well.....

D
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 06/08/13 04:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Troy how is this seal holding up ? I was told by the shop I have been going to recently that these seals are made of something like fiberglass and don't work very well. They suggested that I get rope seals from Best Gasket, they are a graphite material but they are not cheap. I just ordered them from Egge Machine , can not buy directly from Best, 25.12 each ... OUCH



i believe you are correct on the fiberglass make up. i installed one in an engine 11 years ago, and it's leaking, started about six months after installation. i installed this felpro in my same hemi combo as troy, but it leaked. i probably chalk that one up to installer error, even though i thought it looked good upon install and later, removal.

i also installed one of the graphite ropes in my gto, (had VERY troublesome problems getting any seal to work, so i went to the graphite rope), and it has been great. that being said, i firmly believe in the graphite rope. i could not drag the graphite rope seal into/around the hemi crank like the fiber ones, so beware if that is your plan, they don't really like being installed that way, crank out worked best for me, as per the instructions as well.....

D



thanks for that heads up , the engines I will be installing them in are all unassembled so that shouldn't be an issue.

My Hemi and my 383 stroker both have smooth seal area cranks , I'm not sure now if I should put a rope seal in them or not ?
Posted By: Jeff_383

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 06/08/13 12:53 PM

from what I can gather:

smooth crank=rubber seal
knurled crank=rope seal
Posted By: billohio

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 06/08/13 02:06 PM

my 472 also leaks. Just took it out and didnt look to see what seal was in it. very annoying. Thanks for all who posted fixes!!
Posted By: KillerCuda

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 06/08/13 03:01 PM

Quote:


thanks for that heads up , the engines I will be installing them in are all unassembled so that shouldn't be an issue.

My Hemi and my 383 stroker both have smooth seal area cranks , I'm not sure now if I should put a rope seal in them or not ?



ah. all mine were grooved cranks, which i thought may have been part of the issue with the lip seal sealing, but who knows, i see plenty of people running lips on old cranks with grooves, and it works. my current 472 hemi has a grooved eagle crank, and i just put another lip seal in, (checked seal riding area with grease on the crank then rotated it) and the lip just barely hits the smooth portion in front of the grooves. it, has been dry for 200 miles now, a first for this engine with numerous seals.....

but, beings you have smooth cranks to begin with, i would not be afraid to run the lip seal. i offset mine for install, with a conservative amount of rtv holding it in place on both halves. oh, those graphite seals have the nice fiber side seals though, i found a lot of the other seals did not have the greatest option for side seals in the seal cap. i used a conservative amount of rtv there too, just enough to squeeze out a wee bit everywhere, and it's held up great so far.

good luck! and thanks to troy again for all the inside help/tips.....

D
Posted By: rss

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 06/09/13 04:02 AM

Quote:

i believe you are correct on the fiberglass make up. i installed one in an engine 11 years ago, and it's leaking, started about six months after installation. i installed this felpro in my same hemi combo as troy, but it leaked. i probably chalk that one up to installer error, even though i thought it looked good upon install and later, removal.

i also installed one of the graphite ropes in my gto, (had VERY troublesome problems getting any seal to work, so i went to the graphite rope), and it has been great. that being said, i firmly believe in the graphite rope. i could not drag the graphite rope seal into/around the hemi crank like the fiber ones, so beware if that is your plan, they don't really like being installed that way, crank out worked best for me, as per the instructions as well.....




Lots of good information here on Moparts, but I swear that I got alot more done in the pre-internet days when I only knew of one way to make a fix to something. Now I hem and haw about which is the best of six or more ways to skin every cat. Was just about to button up the bottom end of my 383 with a Felpro rope seal but am having second thought about ordering the graphite one from Best.

I had looked into Best a few months back but was under the impression that they didn't make a rope seal for a Mopar big block. JohnRR, what is the part number for the Best seal you are ordering from Egge?
Posted By: KillerCuda

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 06/09/13 06:34 AM

Quote:

JohnRR, what is the part number for the Best seal you are ordering from Egge?



i am not john, but i talked to best gasket directly, and part number 5297 was what they suggested, and it is a great seal kit. comes with the fiber side seals, razor knife for trimming, shim for correct crush, tiny dowel pin for keeping the seal from rotating once installed, (not sure of necessary, but it's there), and detailed instructions. i would not think twice about using it. i am sure the felpro may work fine, but i am kind of damaged from all my rear main leak trama, and am a fan of this one over the felpro.

d

ps, that 'L' shaped blade was something that i made, not the one in the kit.....

Attached picture 7735963-IMG_0552.jpg
Posted By: rss

Re: I will never install a rubber rear main seal again!! - 06/09/13 04:14 PM

Thanks for the info!
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