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Shop couldn't adjust caster

Posted By: dwbiggs

Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/19/08 06:20 PM

Said the heads, or whatever they attach to wheels, did not have enough clearance. The front end is lower and I have 17" wheels. Is there different kind of equipment that can do caster?
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/19/08 06:36 PM

Are they saying they DID adjust Camber and Toe?

If so, what they may have ran into was that in getting the camber set to spec (which you really DON'T want BTW)the caster ended up being less than optimum, which is common in our cars, expecially in a car that may have been crunched at some point.

If they are truly saying the didn;t have the right equipment I would be curious how they did the Camber and Toe.
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/19/08 06:38 PM

Do you have to run the 17's (brake clearance)?
If not and they are who you want to use, swap wheels.
If not, find a place that can work with your car.
Most alignment heads stick out 3-4 inches from the wheel edge, and extend up and down maybe 20 inches. See http://www.prealign.com/images/hunterman.jpg

It could very likely have clearance issues. Different machines have different heads. You may have to check around to find a place that has the tools to work with your mods.
Posted By: dwbiggs

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/19/08 07:10 PM

Quote:

If they are truly saying the didn;t have the right equipment I would be curious how they did the Camber and Toe.




They were able to do toe-in and camber but the guy said that in order to do caster the head had to be ratated like 30 deg both ways but the heads would not clear the fender? Something like that anyway.
Posted By: dwbiggs

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/19/08 07:25 PM

Quote:

Are they saying they DID adjust Camber and Toe?

If so, what they may have ran into was that in getting the camber set to spec (which you really DON'T want BTW)the caster ended up being less than optimum, which is common in our cars, expecially in a car that may have been crunched at some point.




They did get camber and toe...1" neg camber and 1/16" toe.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/19/08 07:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Are they saying they DID adjust Camber and Toe?

If so, what they may have ran into was that in getting the camber set to spec (which you really DON'T want BTW)the caster ended up being less than optimum, which is common in our cars, expecially in a car that may have been crunched at some point.




They did get camber and toe...1" neg camber and 1/16" toe.



GOOD numbers there! (You don't want postive camber, even though stock specs are positive) If you didn't tell them you wanted 1 degree neg then they already knew---thats a GOOD sign. Sounds like they don't have the right head style to clear your fenders with your 17 inchers.
Posted By: dwbiggs

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/19/08 08:02 PM

I actually told them what numbers I wanted....they had to create a "custom" alignment in the database. I think I will try to find someone who can do the caster...was just wondering which type of machine can do it so I know what to ask for. The guy at the shop mentioned a different type of machine that could do it.
Posted By: dvw

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/19/08 09:56 PM

They're right when you turn the wheels on a lowered car the heads can get close. If it steers straight and camber & toe are good I wouldn't worry about it.
Doug
Posted By: Exit1965

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/19/08 10:15 PM

Can caster be adjusted without affecting camber since they are on the same 2 bolts, or would the camber need to be reset after turning the bolts?
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/19/08 11:22 PM

Quote:

They're right when you turn the wheels on a lowered car the heads can get close. If it steers straight and camber & toe are good I wouldn't worry about it.
Doug

Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/19/08 11:25 PM

Quote:

Can caster be adjusted without affecting camber since they are on the same 2 bolts, or would the camber need to be reset after turning the bolts?



No. The same two bolts. One affects the other.
Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/20/08 02:53 AM

You have to do camber and caster adjustments at the same time.

Try finding a shop that has a Hunter DSP 4000 or newer machine. I use a DSP 4000 at work and I cant remember the last time I had a problem with getting the heads to mount or read.
Posted By: dwbiggs

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/20/08 12:15 PM

Quote:

Try finding a shop that has a Hunter DSP 4000 or newer machine.



Now thats the answer I was looking for...thanks!

I notice that the car darts a little when I go over a ridge in the road...sorta like driving on the old bias ply tires. I assume this is due to a caster adjustment...since the tires are new and my camber and toe in are now correct.
Posted By: Mr T2U

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/20/08 01:16 PM

i don't do alignments for a living but my buddy lets me use his alignment machine to do alignments on my car.
to the best of my knowledge you have to do a caster swing to get any readings, including camber and toe, from the alignment machine. how were they able to get the other readings without doing a caster swing.
they have a hunter hawkeye machine at the dealer where i work. according to the alignment guy this machine can do alignments on all cars with wheels up to 24" big.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/20/08 03:13 PM

Thing is, when you find a shop with the right equiptment, they will likely have to redo the camber and toe too. They'll probably have to start all over again.

Not having the caster equal or close will cause the car to pull at cruise speed.

My car is lowered with 15" wheels though. Not a problem. I don't see how 17" rim would make a difference in the setup shown in my picture...

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Posted By: dwbiggs

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/20/08 04:18 PM

Quote:

My car is lowered with 15" wheels though. Not a problem. I don't see how 17" rim would make a difference in the setup shown in my picture...




My car is way lower than that....probably 3" lower. Think he had to put extension on them for my 17"'s and that put them too close to fenders.
Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/20/08 06:49 PM

I need to make one small correction due to my bad memory. The alignment machine is a DSP 400 not 4000.

Sorry if that caused any confusion.
Posted By: NITROUSN

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/20/08 09:05 PM

Quote:

to the best of my knowledge you have to do a caster swing to get any readings, including camber and toe, from the alignment machine. how were they able to get the other readings without doing a caster swing.





That what I was thinking.
Posted By: Sixpak

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/20/08 10:59 PM

Put a set of 14's or 15's on the car and get it aligned, and DON'T let them change your torsion bar settings then swap out to the 17's. Make sure the t bars are set correctly with the 17's before the alignment. The alignment should not change provided the car is on the same size tires on all 4 corners with the 14's / 15's and then to the 17's.
Posted By: kenworth_goose

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/21/08 12:08 AM

What they are telling you they can't adjust the caster because they can't do a caster sweep for a base measurment which is necessary before any adjusting.
Posted By: Mr T2U

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/21/08 02:26 AM

Quote:

My car is way lower than that....probably 3" lower. Think he had to put extension on them for my 17"'s and that put them too close to fenders.



how is this for low. i have no problems aligning this on my buddies 20 year old alignment rack. the rocker panel pinch weld is about 3" off the ground. i have 17" wheels with 235 55 17" rubber.
i personally think the align shop is yanking your chain. time to find a new align shop.

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Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/21/08 02:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

My car is lowered with 15" wheels though. Not a problem. I don't see how 17" rim would make a difference in the setup shown in my picture...




My car is way lower than that....probably 3" lower. Think he had to put extension on them for my 17"'s and that put them too close to fenders.



My tires are 25.4" in dia and that picture was taken with the car raised at eye level. Also the rims are 15" so the top of the rim is not as close to the bottom of the fender. Best way to compare ride height is by measuring the bottom of the rockers in the front and rear.

I can't run any rubber bump stops right now. If I were 3" lower it would be sitting on the frame.
Posted By: dodgeram440

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/21/08 02:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

to the best of my knowledge you have to do a caster swing to get any readings, including camber and toe, from the alignment machine. how were they able to get the other readings without doing a caster swing.





That what I was thinking.



I suppose it depends on the equipment you are using. I haven't used any brand new state-of-the-art equipment so I can't vouch for them. I'm used to using a Hunter D111 machine. I know it's a 20 year old machine, but you get camber and toe readings immediately, no need for a caster sweep except for caster readings.

I can see where there may be interefence with his fenders. Just because there were no clearance problems with a certain machine on a b-body don't mean there won't be with another machine on an e-body. Also, backspacing on wheels can be an issue. I think the easiest fix for the problem is to put the stock 15's on it, align it, then put your 17's back on.
Posted By: dwbiggs

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/21/08 12:34 PM

Quote:

I think the easiest fix for the problem is to put the stock 15's on it, align it, then put your 17's back on.




This sounds like the best idea....although I will be tagged with another 50.00 alignment. Maybe I can talk them into cutting the price a little.

BTW, how much camber can you get out of a stock setup? Will it affect how much caster you can get...since one change affects the other. I told them 1 deg neg but can I get more.?
Posted By: Clair_Davis

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/21/08 01:36 PM

I think caster is more important than camber on a driver type car. If you're going to push corners as well, then you need camber too, but if you have to sacrifice one for the other, keep the caster.

If it's an all-stock setup, you may not be able to get more than a couple degrees of +caster and still keep the camber at 0.0 or slightly negative. This seems to be worse on B/E bodies than A bodies. I've got stock-type parts on my Valiant (no problem solver bushings or tubular UCA's), and I was able to get a little over 3* of (+)caster AND 0.75* (-)camber. If you can get 1.0* (-)camber but only 1.0* (+)caster, bump the camber down to 0.5* and try to get more (+)caster. It's a balancing act on stock parts. Be sure to match the caster on both sides.



Clair
Posted By: dodgeram440

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/21/08 01:45 PM

I wouldn't go any more (less?) than 1 degree negative. Actually, to me that is a little excessive and is bordering on tire wear, IMHO. Maybe some of these others with more experience in racing setups have a different opinion, but I don't think I'd go anymore than 1/2 degree negative.
Posted By: Mr T2U

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/22/08 03:21 AM

i rum my car at 2 1/2* positive CASTER
1/2* neg CAMBER
1/16" neg toe
i can let go of the wheel at speeds over 100mph and the car doesn't wander.
Posted By: NITROUSN

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/22/08 03:38 AM

Quote:

I suppose it depends on the equipment you are using. I haven't used any brand new state-of-the-art equipment so I can't vouch for them. I'm used to using a Hunter D111 machine. I know it's a 20 year old machine, but you get camber and toe readings immediately, no need for a caster sweep except for caster readings.




I read what you are saying but an alignment has to include caster. There is no steering automobile made that the caster, camber, toe should all be read. A fixed rear is one thing but a steerable axle needs all the readings.
Posted By: captaindodge

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/22/08 11:41 AM

Is "neg toe" toe out or toe in ?
Posted By: Mr T2U

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/22/08 12:09 PM

toe in
Posted By: JAKE68

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/22/08 12:25 PM

A couple of things......... You can put another set of tires on it to do the aligment and it will not affect any of the readings . If the shop could not do caster they should not have charged for the service. Maybe just a hook up. And toe out is neg. toe in is poss. Jake
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/22/08 01:28 PM

Quote:

Is "neg toe" toe out or toe in ?



Toe-out (-) means the front of the tires are farther apart than the rear of the tires. Toe-in (+) means the front of the tires are closer together than the rear of the tires.
Posted By: 5537SG

Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster - 05/22/08 03:40 PM

you could always take the fenders off!

It can be difficult on some machines to do a caster sweep with modified vehicles, Id just drive from shop to shop asking each one if they think they can perform a sucessful caster sweep with their particular machine on your particular car.

Theres no way I can do a caster sweep on my race car without removing the front clip, even then the heads have trouble communicating.

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