Moparts
46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one)
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/29/11 10:50 PM
I've been doing some research about this recently, and I think it's very feasible. I can also foresee more demand for something like this as the supply of RH transmissions start to dry up. This controller would allow any vehicle to run an RE transmission.
Work won't begin on this for another couple months as I want to get the fan controller going well first, but I would like to get everything figured out for this in the meantime.
Quote:
The governor pressure sensor measures output pressure of the governor pressure solenoid valve. This feedback is needed by the PCM to accurately control pressure. The unit is an absolute pressure device and the output is calibrated to be .35 to .65 volts at 14.7 psi (normal barometric pressure).
The (governor pressure) solenoid valve regulates line pressure to produce governor pressure. The average current supplied to the solenoid valve controls governor pressure. One amp current produces zero psi governor pressure. Zero amps sets the maximum governor pressure.
The purpose of the transmission temperature sensor is to provide transmission fluid temperature information to the PCM. The PCM uses this information to control engagement of the fourth gear overdrive clutch, the converter clutch, and governor pressure. The normal resistance value for the thermistor at room temperature is approximately 1000 ohms for transmissions built prior to the 2002 model year. The resistance value for late model transmissions has been increased to 2000 ohms.
From what I understand, the governor pressure just controls the shift timing in association with the TV cable, and is otherwise regulated to 1psi/1mph. The actual shifting from 1-2, and 2-3 is handled hydraulically by the transmission; there aren't shift solenoids I would need to control. There are also 4 different governor pressure curves depending on the temperature of the fluid, WOT, or if the tcase is in 4LO. I found a little information about these in the manual I have. Does anyone have specific details of what these are, or what they should be?
So, I think all the controller has to do is take the speedometer signal as an input, then use feedback to control the governor pressure. Add some more logic to control overdrive and lock up, and it should work pretty well. I came across some information in a 46RE manual about how to calibrate the pressure sensor, and it's rather straightforward. I believe the controller would also need manifold vacuum input to get the engine load.
As for the speed input, the RE trans I have has an electronic output that I can read just fine. The RH I have is a 4wd model, and I don't have the tcase to know whether it's also electronic, or if it drives a cable. To swap this into an older vehicle I may need to make another box that takes the electronic speedo signal and then spins the speedo cable accordingly. There's one company making this already, but it isn't cheap.
The pinout of the connector on the trans should include the following, probably with a power and ground as well.
Trans fluid temp sensor
Governor pressure sensor
Governor pressure solenoid
O/D (3-4) Shift Solenoid
TCC Solenoid
Output Speed Sensor
Park/Neutral Switch
Does anyone know exactly which pin is which? From the looks of the replacement parts on ebay, I can get one and then figure out which pin goes where. Also, does anyone know the part number of the matching connector for the body side of the harness (or if it's even available)?
I'm kinda aiming for a price point around $500. If there's sufficient interest I'll continue and see what I can come up with 
Posted By: Andrewh
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/29/11 11:21 PM
isn't this another place where it would be easier to ask someone to pull data while driving with your new ociliscope?
Due to the large number of sensors, temp, speed, pressure, etc..
seems you have to use factory pieces, so why re-invent the wheel?
or is it just that difficult which is why no one else bothered? or low volume?
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/29/11 11:50 PM
To be honest, it really seems pretty simple.
Calibrate and read the speed sensor, and adjust the governor pressure from there. Some logic to turn OD & LU on/off. The hard part will be the physical housing it's held in.
Ideally a board member would have access to and be willing to test it on a transmission dyno, but everything up to then can be done on paper.
I think the reason there aren't any other controller yet, is the same thing that plagues most mopar stuff: low volume.
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/29/11 11:59 PM
The connector pin-outs can be found in the FSM section 8W-80. A glance at the fluid flow diagrams in the same FSM will show how the governor pressure acts on the shift valves and how throttle pressure interacts.
IMO the ideal controller would have adjustable governor pressure curves to emulate the numerous mechanical governor configurations of the old mechanical governor. For example, the old troubleshooting numbers of 10 psi governor pressure for every 10 mph is just general, the lightweight HP governors had different pressure values so as to shift later at WOT.
Posted By: 383man
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/30/11 01:06 AM
I used to use the gov pressure is about the same as road speed to test gov press but I found these tranny's to be off just a little but they actually use the trans output shaft sensor to determine gov press. The factory will have lock-up even in 2cd gear on the newer ones but you could just do it in 3rd or od and use a certain speed to be above for lock-up. Same with od as it will have to be in 3rd and above so much speed for od to engage. Good luck with it , Ron
Posted By: 360view
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/30/11 12:37 PM
I think the controller project is a good one.
I would also point out that around 1998-1999 the factory PCM software for one year in the Ram locked up the TCC in 2nd gear, most probably as a slight MPG improvement.
However, there were so many additional customer complaints about 'jerkiness' during extra customer-felt TCC lockups that at least one flash came out so the dealerships could do away with this feature for customer satisfaction.
So... if you build a standalone 46RE controller you might be able to
HONESTLY advertise it
as a MPG improvement device for Ram and Dakota pickups, particularly for city driving.
I would also estimate that at least
15-30% of Ram/Dakota owners really dislike how their 46RE drops out of Overdrive gear on highway hills and makes a noisy shift down to 3rd.
These owners might like a box that instead would let the torque converter clutch slip while hill climbing in OD rather than totally down-shift to 3rd.
I notice that the trans controller software on later model (2005+) Chrysler mini-van automatic transmissions now do this on most highway grades less than 4%
Posted By: herkamer
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/30/11 03:19 PM
May be able to save you a lot of time.
The Megasquirt guys have been working on a universal standalone solution. There are 2 versions of this. One using the GPIO board, which is a generic board with a ton of inputs and outputs.
http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/index.htmlThere is an old thread on the GPIO forums about the RE transmissions but it looks to be dead for now.
The MSExtra guys have a solution using the existing hardware of MS2 or Microsquirt.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html#transHope this might help..
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/30/11 07:15 PM
Quote:
The connector pin-outs can be found in the FSM section 8W-80. A glance at the fluid flow diagrams in the same FSM will show how the governor pressure acts on the shift valves and how throttle pressure interacts.
IMO the ideal controller would have adjustable governor pressure curves to emulate the numerous mechanical governor configurations of the old mechanical governor. For example, the old troubleshooting numbers of 10 psi governor pressure for every 10 mph is just general, the lightweight HP governors had different pressure values so as to shift later at WOT.
So would having a knob to adjust the ratio work alright? Rotate it to select 1.1psi/mph, 1.2, 1.3, 0.9, 0.8, etc? I'd like to avoid a windows program to change parameters (if possible).
This is the manual I have right now (as well as the ATSG one). I'm still looking for an actual Dodge FSM.
http://bellsouthpwp2.net/t/h/thegobbells/dodge/Transmission/46re-manual.pdf
For OD & LU points, I was going to basically emulate what is done with the RH swaps. OD over Xmph, and LU over Ymph. Once vacuum drops too much, take it out of LU, and even more, drop it out of OD (?). Have some inputs for switches to manually turn those off as well.
Between that and options to apply lock up in 2nd, maybe I will need a configuration program.
I may borrow a few ideas from the MS stuff, but I think I'd rather do my own hardware than hack onto theirs. I'm aiming for more or less an easy swap and install, and I really don't want to build their boards with all the through hole components Surface mount is actually much easier for me to deal with.
I've seen a little on how increasing the Line Pressure can have benefits for towing, but I don't think I have any way to control that, nor would just increasing governor pressure have any real benefits for towing (right?). Or rather, if the user manually increases their line pressure, then the governor pressure needs to be increased as well, correct? Maybe even another input for a separate line pressure sensor 
Thanks for the replies
Posted By: herkamer
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/30/11 10:13 PM
The Microsquirt is SMD and comes pre-assembled, with a wiring harness for around $400. That will work with the Extra code. I agree the GPIO would be a pain with soldering, but I did the MS engine controller before they came out with v3.57 (SMD) so it isn't that hard. If you need any pages out of the 99 FSM let me know and I'll scan em. Fortunately I'm using an RH in my truck, so I added a governor pressure sender and let the MS control LU/OD. So far so good but could use some fine tuning.
Posted By: Grizzly
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/01/11 04:26 AM
If any of you guys can figure out a way to keep a 545rfe from downshifting while coasting downhill, I'll buy it!
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/01/11 08:16 PM
Quote:
If any of you guys can figure out a way to keep a 545rfe from downshifting while coasting downhill, I'll buy it!
Actually 
I think ATS Diesel makes a piggyback TCC controller thing that would do just that. I'm intending this to be a controller for a swap into an older vehicle without an ECU to keep happy.
Quote:
If you need any pages out of the 99 FSM let me know and I'll scan em.
If you could get me a scan of the page with the connector pinout, that would be great! (section 8W-80 apparently)
This is the first I've heard of the Microsquirt, and it does look interesting.
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/01/11 10:11 PM
I think adjusting the govenor preasure on the fly would be an awesome feture.
it would work really good for modified engines and rear gear ratios... just like the different weights are available for different combos.
Posted By: herkamer
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/01/11 11:53 PM
I figured starting with the Microsquirt wouldn't be too bad since there isn't that many inputs and outputs needed to control the trans. Bonus is that it comes with the wiring.
8W-80-6 attached, this is the connector side.
Posted By: kingofkaz
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 09/20/11 11:54 PM
if you are really makeing a standalone controller when can i get one????
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/11/12 10:57 PM
Bump
With the Fan Controller shipping now, I figure I should take another look at this project.
At this point I'm working on a different project that will have a USB connection to a windows program, and that may be the easiest way to configure this controller as well. Be able to customize OD/LU speeds, pressure settings, etc. I just need to know what settings would need to be customizable.
So, post up a wishlist of features you'd like to see, and I'll see what I can come up with
Posted By: Grizzly
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/12/12 06:58 AM
Just a heads up Hoozie, the RE's also require an input from the throttle position sensor.
TV cable setup also has to be very precise or apparently can cause transmission damage.
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/12/12 09:48 PM
The factory transmission controller uses a signal from the TPS but I don't think that would be necessary for a stand-alone controller, all the transmission needs is a governor pressure signal and commands to lockup the converter and engage the OD. The RH conversions that use pressure switches on the governor pressure test port function by road speed and I think a stand-alone controller could too.
The major challenge, as I see it, is to determine what voltage equates to what governor pressure and how many pulses from the output shaft speed sensor equate to what road speed.
If this can be pulled off it will make a lot of previously unusable RE's usable for retrofits....hope it happens.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/12/12 10:31 PM
Actually I have been kicking around the idea of a PIC based controller for the RH transmissions. I'd like to come up with something less crude than a few pressure switches.
Gary
Posted By: roadrunninMark
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/12/12 10:45 PM
this would definitely increase the available trans to swap...
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/12/12 11:09 PM
Quote:
The factory transmission controller uses a signal from the TPS but I don't think that would be necessary for a stand-alone controller, all the transmission needs is a governor pressure signal and commands to lockup the converter and engage the OD. The RH conversions that use pressure switches on the governor pressure test port function by road speed and I think a stand-alone controller could too.
The major challenge, as I see it, is to determine what voltage equates to what governor pressure and how many pulses from the output shaft speed sensor equate to what road speed.
Exactly. The mechanical governor increases the output pressure according to road speed. Knowing the stock pulses/mile I can convert that to a road speed, then I use feedback to make the governor pressure match according to the chosen curve. Of course the nifty thing is that relationship (governor pressure to road speed) can be changed on the fly and/or customized by the user.
Wouldn't it also be handy to have a sensor for line pressure as well? Or at least a way to account for higher than stock line pressures?
An RH controller would just have to read the governor pressure and manifold pressure, then allow the user to change the pressure/vacuum points to control when LU and OD occur.
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/13/12 12:51 AM
Quote:
Wouldn't it also be handy to have a sensor for line pressure as well? Or at least a way to account for higher than stock line pressures?
I'm not sure if that would be useful, I think the governor pressure sensor feedback is all that's really needed...with customized relationship I don't think the actual line pressure needs to be known; all the shift valve plugs ever see is governor pressure and that's what they react to...that and the throttle pressure they need to overcome. Since throttle pressure can't be electrically controlled the TP linkage/cable can be used for fine tuning.
Starting to feel like an orchestra leader?
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/13/12 01:03 AM
Ok. I had read that line pressure can be increased (a bit) to firm up shifts and keep the clutches from slipping as much under load. Lower governor pressures I guess would just lower the shift points, which the user could then slowly increase to get the shift points they want.
Quote:
Starting to feel like an orchestra leader?
A little Getting as much input as possible, then choosing which stuff to ignore 
That all being said, looking at the MS forums, it looks like someone was able to hack their MS TCU to work with an RE. Soo, it may be easier/cheaper to go that route versus a completely custom setup. Or it may be nice to have one that the customer can buy and that just works; no piecing together and finding and loading the right version of code, etc... any thoughts?
Posted By: Twostick
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/13/12 05:07 AM
How about one for the 545rfe? Possible?
Kevin
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/13/12 05:31 AM
The 46 RE stand alone would be wicked, if one was made for 545RFE that would be even better. Not getting spoiled or picky, either would be awesome
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/13/12 05:44 AM
looking around, apparently Powertrain Control Solutions can reprogram their controller to work with the 545rfe, but that thread was from a couple years ago.
It looks like the 545rfe has 7 solenoids to control, which makes it that much more complicated. Again, looks like someone is working on a MS solution, but then you'd have to piece together MS hardware and find the right software.
I'll probably start with the RE, and see if there's enough demand after that.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/13/12 05:47 PM
The industry standard for the speedometer cable is 1000 rpm @ 60 mph. So since 60 mph covers a mile in a minute the speedometer cable spins 1000 times per mile.
I like your idea of the speed sensor controller. Even though the use of pressure switches SEEMS simpler, the use of a bunch of mechanical devices almost guarantees that the system will fail at some point. Also, the issue of line pressure has to be addressed. Maybe that shift kit I just bought increases line pressure all the time. Now I have to buy new pressure switches or adjust and calibrate the old ones if that's possible. Contrast that to a stationary sensor counting teeth. Either it works or it doesn't and if it doesn't you replace the sensor which costs $20. At least the sensor in my 4L80E cost that when it went out after 130K miles.
I'm a mechanical engineer and I'm changing out some 50-year-old mechanical governors for digital in our hydro plant, because there are some things that digital just does better.
R.
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/13/12 08:40 PM
It seems that TransGo had some problems with raised line pressure when they introduced their kit for the RE and supplied a resistor to fool the factory controller but a programable custom unit probably won't have the same problem.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/13/12 11:56 PM
Quote:
It seems that TransGo had some problems with raised line pressure when they introduced their kit for the RE and supplied a resistor to fool the factory controller but a programable custom unit probably won't have the same problem.
That actually gives me another question: how does the stock ECU know what the line pressure is, if there isn't an output for it? Or is it measuring from a sensor external to the 8 pin header? Or is it Pin 1 which doesn't have a description
Which brings up another question: Does anyone know where I can get the body side connector for the 8 pin 46re connector? I found one on ebay for $50 
Also, if anyone has the pinout description or other information for the 545rfe I'll put it in my book for later 
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/15/12 09:13 PM
Alrighty, finally got through to the parts department at the local dealership and got some part numbers for the connectors. They are available, even if they're not terribly inexpensive.
RE 8 Pin - 5183475AB ~$45 online
RFE 23 Pin - 5102403AA ~$100 online
Another question:
How would you like to have control over the governor pressure? I could use a 12x12 table with Speed and Load as inputs, and the governor pressure as the output. Then, at higher loads the governor pressure can be increased to raise the shift points. At lower loads the pressure is lower allowing shifts sooner. Then you just tweak the values in the table to suit your needs.
Or, I could have a simple mapping of speed to governor pressure.
Posted By: Andrewh
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/15/12 09:43 PM
I would think your tables are more for towing?
for a car, mostly foot on the floor highest shift points that make sense.
part throttle, lower shift points to get it to od soonest.
possibly part throttle kick down. but not sure how that works here.
Posted By: roadrunninMark
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/16/12 12:12 AM
but what will happen if you put in a shift kit or modifications that raise the pressure, will that effect what you are trying to do? Maybe you can have a toggle for: normal driving, performance driving, towing (for trucks)?
Posted By: BulletBob
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 02/16/12 02:12 AM
Will you guys figure this out soon? I want to buy a couple when they're done!
Posted By: roadrunninMark
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/08/12 09:20 PM
any update?
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/08/12 09:34 PM
The update is... nothing new to report. A month ago another client hit me with 3 good sized projects they want done yesterday
I'd still like some more feedback on controlling the governor pressure. I also realized the Throttle Lever will do some of that anyway; at higher throttle positions/load, it will raise the shift points.
Makes me wonder if just a simple user adjustable speed->governor pressure table would work.
Then possibly 2 or 3 of those tables that are selectable for normal driving, towing, etc.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 03/12/12 04:03 AM
Ever been to the Jefferson State Microbrewery? Are they still in business?
R.
Posted By: roadrunninMark
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/22/12 03:28 PM
anything new on this Hoozie?
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/22/12 05:25 PM
I have the basic block design done and most of the components chosen, just haven't had time to put it all together. Trying to get another product done and out the door.
I'm also working on an RH controller. I'm thinking instead of adding an external pressure sensor to detect speed, it'll be easier (and cheaper) to add an inline sensor to the speedometer cable. Between that and a vacuum sensor, it would have customizable shift/unshift points. And it's basically a subset of the RE controller, so not really any additional work on my part.
Posted By: roadrunninMark
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/23/12 02:26 AM
sounds good, please keep us updated
Posted By: JDMopar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/23/12 02:47 AM
Quote:
I have the basic block design done and most of the components chosen, just haven't had time to put it all together. Trying to get another product done and out the door.
I'm also working on an RH controller. I'm thinking instead of adding an external pressure sensor to detect speed, it'll be easier (and cheaper) to add an inline sensor to the speedometer cable. Between that and a vacuum sensor, it would have customizable shift/unshift points. And it's basically a subset of the RE controller, so not really any additional work on my part.
You may have already looked at it, but Gear Vendors uses a speed sensor in the speedo cable with their units. Since the speedo cable needs to be lengthened for an RH transmission, it might be a good fit.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/23/12 03:22 AM
Quote:
You may have already looked at it, but Gear Vendors uses a speed sensor in the speedo cable with their units. Since the speedo cable needs to be lengthened for an RH transmission, it might be a good fit.
Interesting. I'll have to look into what they use.
I was tentatively planning on designing it to use something like this.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G2887-1/
Then it would work with any other type of square wave input from other sensors. It would need to be calibrated of course, but that's easy enough.
And/or it would take another pair of inputs to read the sine wave from a reluctor type pickup.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/24/12 05:12 AM
Ok. I pulled the solenoids/sensors out of my core 46RE earlier tonight so I can mess around with them.
Later I'll order the $50 harness from flebay so I can hook up to it easier.
Slowly moving forward
Posted By: roadrunninMark
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/08/12 05:52 PM
you have an update on your progress, Hoozie?
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/08/12 11:49 PM
Sadly, nothing new yet. Too many other projects at the moment, and one of my clients just added another
Then throw in caring for 5 orphaned kittens, and my parents deciding to visit this week
Posted By: BBR
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/08/13 05:49 PM
BTT!!!
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/09/13 05:24 PM
You mention they are gonna be for older cars, well how is the speedometer gonna work? There is no gears on the out put shaft and no hole in the output shaft housing for the speedometer gear
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/09/13 07:17 PM
There's another guy online that sells a box that takes an electronic speed signal, then drives a stepper motor to spin the speedometer cable.
We'd have to get that, or I may end up building one of those as well.
Posted By: BBR
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/09/13 10:19 PM
This is a product that the Durango/Dakota/Jeep guys would love to have. 42/44/46RE's
It would be so nice to use a different ECM like a Megasquirt without having to piggyback on the stock JTEC and hoping you don't do something to kick it into limp mode. Or even ditch the EFI all together and use a carb if you want.
I searched the megashift forum and never found where anyone had really made any progress adapting it to a Mopar trans.
Posted By: BUBBAZ572
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/09/13 10:20 PM
DAKOTA DIGITAL HAS A OUTPUT SENSOR GPS-50-1
WORKED GREAT FOR ME
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/09/13 10:37 PM
Quote:
You mention they are gonna be for older cars, well how is the speedometer gonna work? There is no gears on the out put shaft and no hole in the output shaft housing for the speedometer gear
Only the '98 and later are lacking the speedo drive in the tail. The output shaft speed sensor could be used to provide an electic speedo input.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/09/13 11:25 PM
Quote:
This is a product that the Durango/Dakota/Jeep guys would love to have. 42/44/46RE's
It would be so nice to use a different ECM like a Megasquirt without having to piggyback on the stock JTEC and hoping you don't do something to kick it into limp mode. Or even ditch the EFI all together and use a carb if you want.
I searched the megashift forum and never found where anyone had really made any progress adapting it to a Mopar trans.
That was kinda the idea. For myself, I'm looking at doing the Ford 5.0 EFI, and would need either this controller, or an RH transmission.
Last I checked, one guy had made the megasquirt trans controller work with an RE, but you have to find the right circuit boards and the right code, and then make it work. I'm aiming for an OOTB solution.
My controller will need to know the vehicle speed, so it will either need to:
A - use a speedometer cable pass through that generates an electronic signal that goes to the controller (like this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G2887-1/)
or B - Use the electronic speed signal from the trans, and then drive a stepper motor to work with cable driven speedometers.
Posted By: BulletBob
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/10/13 04:56 AM
Quote:
There's another guy online that sells a box that takes an electronic speed signal, then drives a stepper motor to spin the speedometer cable.
We'd have to get that, or I may end up building one of those as well.
AutoMeter sells a speed sensor/speedo drive for about $80
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/10/13 06:39 AM
Quote:
Quote:
There's another guy online that sells a box that takes an electronic speed signal, then drives a stepper motor to spin the speedometer cable.
We'd have to get that, or I may end up building one of those as well.
AutoMeter sells a speed sensor/speedo drive for about $80
Do you have a link or part number?
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/10/13 06:46 AM
FWIW....I use a Cable X speedometer adapter, and it works well for me.
(On my LS1/T56 swap into the Torana with mechanical speedo)
Posted By: BBR
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/10/13 06:26 PM
Linking trans control efforts...
http://www.racemagnum.com/showthread.php?p=939511#poststopMight have to be a member to read though.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/13/13 02:54 AM
Ok transmission experts...
If I built a test rig with the engine/trans outside of a vehicle, would I need to put the transmission under load to properly test everything (governor pressure, etc)?
Or could I get away with just running it and taking my measurements?
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/13/13 08:39 PM
You would need to manipulate the throttle valve in relation to an imagined "load" to test it but it sounds like you just need to manipulate the gov. press. strictly in relationship to the output shaft RPM. For simplicity you could ignore the temp and just make the pressure go up in relation to RPM.
Another thought I had about this the other day was while watching them on the datastream on my scanner shows them to jump up or down in big steps rather than smooth rise and fall like the computer is trying to command an exact shift time rather than a smooth rise and fall where the trans just shifts but I would expect it to work just fine with gradual rise and fall in relation to RPM.
Posted By: BBR
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/14/13 03:47 PM
One thing to probably remember is the stock calibration would probably be geared more towards smooth soccer-mom friendly shifts. We as gearheads are typically more interested in solid quick gear changes.
Posted By: roadrunninMark
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/14/13 10:07 PM
the mad scientist has returned...
Posted By: roadrunninMark
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 01/30/13 05:34 PM
Any updates from the lab?
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/07/13 09:51 PM
Soooooooo……can I order a controler yet?
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/05/15 03:35 AM
It would be great if you could change the shift points for your application. I plan on using an electronically driven speedometer anyway, so I would want to have the electronic signal setup that this transmission has anyway.
Hoozie, what is required to have a customizable shift points? I mean, would it be the final gear ratio as well as the circumference of the rear tire to control any adjustability to the shift points? Is there any other ways to control the shift points? I plan on using this controller with a Gen II 426 hemi architecture, and I want a 3.33 rear gear ratio with a weird rear tire circumference as well.
It would be good if shift points as well as LU and OD were customizable, because the guy doing this modification probably isn't going to be doing much stock stuff anyways............
Thanks,
Mark
Posted By: Bens_Coronets
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/06/15 01:29 AM
If the controller had a built in MAP sensor you coudl use that to determin load. Similar to the MegaSquirt controllers.
The factory used cold temp tables to keep people from abusing the transmission, you should be able to omit that with a warning to the user that he/she should let it warm up before getting on it.
It would be very nice to have a tow-haul mode (or 4-LO) that'd use an alternate table to keep the RPMs up longer.
-Ben
Posted By: ditchdrift
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/06/15 02:32 AM
Quote:
If any of you guys can figure out a way to keep a 545rfe from downshifting while coasting downhill, I'll buy it!
keep the tcc locked up and it wont downshift.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/06/15 03:36 AM
So I've been thinking some more about how to control the shift points. It's a bit tricky, since it isn't like other transmissions that have solenoids I can control to select a gear.
The RH governor outputs roughly 1psi/mph. The governor pressure is the only thing I can control on the RE.
Basically, the governor pressure and throttle valve pressure push on opposite sides of each shift shuttle valve. Once the governor pressure is higher than the throttle valve pressure, it shifts (I think). At low throttle positions, the governor pressure wins sooner, and causes an upshift. At higher throttle positions, it takes the governor longer to overcome the throttle valve pressure causing higher shifts.
So help me out here: Since the governor pressure has to be higher than the throttle valve pressure to cause an upshift, to raise the shift points, we want the governor pressure to be lower than it normally would be? Right? If we want really low shift points, we'd want higher governor pressure?I'll likely have to include both a MAP and TPS (throttle position) sensor inputs.
Also, since OD & LU are solenoids I can control at any time, I can use a simple mph on/off, or even a curve based on load.
Is there anyone in the southern Oregon area with a stock RE I can do some datalogging on?
Posted By: A727Tflite
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/08/15 03:41 AM
Find yourself a 1993-1/2 or later grand cherokee with the straight 6. It had the first RE trans in it. The V8 GC had the RH trans. These RE's had a standalone control module to run the trans. It took inputs from the engine controller for TPS, temp, etc. The TCM "makes" the gov psi by using a PWM solenoid and reads the gov psi by using a pressure transducer. These early units had a thermistor on the harness in the pan, later we went to a pressure transducer having a built in thermistor. The shift schedule is mapped. 1-2, and 2-3 are all controlled by this map using gov psi and it's fight against throttle pressure. You don't control shift quality using gov psi or throttle pressure. You get hard shifts because of high clutch capacity versus anticipated engine torque. That's why sticking the throttle lever back and then driving around town gives you harsh shifts, low torque going in to the trans in anticipation of high power levels coming in and not being realized. The 3-4 shift is all done with electonics - we spike gov pressure to force all the 3-4 valves over then hit the OD solenoid then the LU solenoid. There are lots more controls than this - this is a summary.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/08/15 05:13 AM
Actually... my dad has a ~96ish GC, straight 6 with an automatic. I bet it probably has an RE in it. Now I just need to see if I can borrow it for a while
So Transman, if the early GCs already have their own controller, what's keeping us from adapting that to standalone use? Or, is the connection to the PCM mandatory?
ahh, it looks like we lost a couple replies with the software change. iirc, it was confirmed that to raise the shift points, the governor pressure has to be lower than baseline.
Posted By: A727Tflite
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/08/15 06:25 PM
We went away from the standalone trans controller for 1996. 1996 was the first year for the integrated engine and trans controller on the RE family for all engines using the 42/44/46/47RE. Only the 4.0L had this standalone controller before 1996. You can change the shift schedule electronically through the software map or by changing the governor weights or by changing the shaft speed "read". To raise the shift point you would need to lighten up the primary (outer) governor weight. Trial and error but nothing that difficult. As for adapting this controller you need to determine the feeds to it and what form the signals are in. I would start with the Service Manual.
Posted By: teflon
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/09/15 11:20 PM
I checked and found no info of a RE trans being used prior to 1996. The Cherokee used either a 32RH aka 904, or a AW4 which was a Japanese unit.
Posted By: Twostick
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 04/10/15 12:16 AM
I checked and found no info of a RE trans being used prior to 1996. The Cherokee used either a 32RH aka 904, or a AW4 which was a Japanese unit.
I think if you search under 4.0
Grand Cherokee, you will find the 42RE was used from 93 to 98.
Kevin
Posted By: 67Charger
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/04/15 06:17 PM
Just to give this a boost, I will be in the market for this exact unit.
I want to put a complete 98 Ram 5.9L/46RE drivetrain in a '68 Charger shell. I can grab the ABS controller so it will relay the data to the PCM, but I need a signal generated at the correct frequency to simulate the rear axle sensor.
It would be nice to be able to ditch that for a stand-alone unit.
Posted By: Tobbe
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/05/15 05:35 AM
bump from the dead ,any news ?
ats have a pricey stanalone for the diesel crowd ..
ats controller
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/05/15 09:46 AM
My main hang up was wrapping my head around how to design the mapping table, but I may have just figured it out:
So baseline is 1 psi governor pressure per 1 mph (60mph = 60psi).
At higher loads, we want a lower governor pressure to raise the shift points, so something like 0.8 psi/1mph (60mph = 48psi). At even higher loads, we may want even lower governor pressure, so 0.6psi/1mph. So if you floor it from a stop, the governor pressure will rise slower than if you drove off normally, and with the pressure being lower the shift points will be higher.
So, a chart with a multiplier as the y-axis, and Load (MAP or TPS) as the x-axis.
The y-axis is centered around 1, with the curve able to go to lower (or higher) multipliers at higher load values.
So, I look up the current multiplier for the current load, and multiply that by the current speed to get a target governor pressure. Then I command the governor solenoid with feedback to reach that target pressure.
At lower loads the multiplier can be adjusted up or down (greater than 1, or lower than 1) to get the desired shift points.
Questions:1. How is downshifting from 3->2, or 2->1 done internally when under load? Does it happen at all? If you're puttering up a hill in 3rd, then floor it, does it downshift to 2nd, or to 1st?
2. Should I have the option of forcing the governor pressure high to force an upshift at a certain (high) RPM?
3. Since lower governor pressure leads to higher shift points, what would happen if I commanded zero (or very low) governor pressure throughout the MPH range?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/05/15 06:52 PM
You wouldn't want to downshift to first with a load going up a hill.
Is this lockup or no lockup ?
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/05/15 08:18 PM
I'm assuming in that case that OD/LU would both be off. I guess I'm wondering what a 727 would do in that situation.
Or am I thinking about it too much?
Does the rest of my theory of operation appear to be sound?
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/05/15 10:44 PM
The thing about a 727 is that it doesn't shift down to 2nd when slowing to a stop, it drops directly from 3rd to 1st so it'll stay in 3rd at a pretty low road speed. If the road speed is low enough in 3rd when the throttle is floored it'll kick down all the way to 1st and I assume the RH will do the same thing...never tried it with an RE but I think it'll do the same thing.
Just spitballing but I believe an RE standalone controller would need a TPS, a TP cable and a speed sensor...the logic to make them all work together is way over my head.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/05/15 11:44 PM
Yea, thinking more about my 727, there have been times I had to manually shift into 2nd when the RPMs dropped too much.
In an RE, what happens when the shifter is placed in 1st or 2nd? Does it no longer matter what the governor pressure does?
The throttle pressure (kickdown) linkage would still be required, but would be completely external to the controller.
I would also need at a minimum a road speed input, and either (electronic) throttle position or MAP (engine vacuum/boost).
I think I outlined the logic in my previous post. Basically, at higher engine loads/throttle positions, I can command a lower governor pressure to induce higher shift points. And make that curve adjustable by the end user to tailor to their preferences.
Posted By: Twostick
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/06/15 02:02 AM
I'd be happy if you could just build a full manual controller.
Kevin
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/08/15 01:59 AM
So, it looks like this is actually happening. Schematic is probably 1/3rd done.
Looks like it will have:
Inputs:
VR speed sensor input (two wire)
12v PWM speed input (hall-effect sensor)
TPS
MAP
RPM?
4-LO
Overdrive disable button (any reason to have a lockup disable button?)
Stuff from the transmission
Outputs:
12v PWM speed output (to drive speedometer?)
status LEDs
header to transmission (obviously)
Other:
USB (will have a software program to set up parameters)
Is there anything I'm missing? Anything that would be nice to have?
I will also need a guinea pig someone with a running RE transmission to help me test everything.
Posted By: Andrewh
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/08/15 03:32 PM
so I know I have efi to piggy back off of, but for those that run carb still, can you power these extra sensors? are there adapters for carbs for the tps?
oh, and do you have enough transfer/program if you used micro usb?
perhaps an android app instead of full laptop?
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/08/15 05:26 PM
Yea, there are cable adapters that hook to a carb to provide an electronic TPS.
For carb people, I was thinking that the MAP would be enough to determine engine load. The MAP sensor will be inside the box, so you'd have to run a vacuum line to it.
Was planning on a uUSB header on the box. Hadn't thought about an Android app
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/08/15 11:57 PM
Could you have an output for an electronic cruise Rostra cruise control module? That would be sweet!!!!!!!!
Yes, it would be great to have an option to keep the transmission out of overdrive if one was towing something. Keeps the fluid a LOT cooler, even with a cooler. If you are going to have this option button to keep the OD off, then it would be great to have an indicator for this as well that an LED could light up on the dash letting one know they are in OD off mode (or towing mode).
If I had a FAST EFI setup on my engine, would I need anything special to use this controller for the transmission?
Yes, I am very glad you're taking this up -- mark me down for two controllers...........
Mark
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/15/15 09:59 PM
Ok, some updates.
You won't need a PC to tune it anymore. I found a handheld screen with buttons I can use for that. When it's not used for tuning, it can either be unplugged and tucked away, or it can show the current transmission variables. I'll have an option to use a PC to update the firmware, but that shouldn't be an issue for most people.
Does anybody know what the pulses per mile for the stock output shaft sensor on the 46RE is? I saw a reference to 4000ppm, but would like to verify that.
Tow/Haul mode: Can anyone say with authority what this button does? I've seen references online that all this does is disable overdrive. I've also seen that it raises the shift points a bit (likely by having a lower governor pressure).
I also saw something that the computer did the same thing in 4-LO as it does with the Tow/Haul mode?
Posted By: A727Tflite
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/16/15 03:42 AM
There are differences in Tow/Haul depending on model year.
I would have to go back and see but if memory serves me - one year T/H disabled OD and then later T/H would change the shift schedule to allow OD if certain vehicle parameters were met like vehicle speed versus engine speed.
Also - pulses per mile - i would have to check on that too - 44000 come to mind but it has been years since I worked the logic side of these things. Count the annulus lugs in the overdrive - the part that the park pawl engages (same lugs that the speed sensor senses) and then multiply that time revolutions per mile based on a given prop shaft speed. Also, the 727 and all Chrysler Rear Wheel Drive units operate ALL the same in regards to 1-2, 2-3 and 3-2 and 2-1 shifts. The fight between governor pressure and throttle pressure determines what happens. You can get a 3-2 down shift if you have steady state throttle while the vehicle starts to slow (slowing reduces gov. pressure). Normally closed throttle downshifts result in a 3-1 - yes, but it is not "designed" this way. A sticky throttle valve in the valve body can/will result in a 3-2, 2-1 dhown shift. Lockup on all the old RWD units are controlled by electronics except the very early units. With a lock up solenoid - the solenoid closes, pressure builds behind the LU valve and shuttles it over to acheive LU. When we command no LU, we shut this solenoid off and you get open converter control - no LU.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/27/15 08:48 PM
Just ordered the first version of the circuit boards.
Sometime in the near future I'll be borrowing my parents 93 Grand cherokee to do some testing on. I'm thinking I'll be able to plug in my harness, let it idle, and manually run the governor pressure up and down. If I can do that, then the rest is just programming
Transman:
I've seen controllers engage the Lockup clutch with a PWM over ~1 second to avoid a jerky/clunky engagement. Did dodge ever do that, and/or should I look into doing it?
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/27/15 09:58 PM
Any chance of incorporating a specific output out of this controller to only operate an electronic cruise control? 8000 pulses per mile would be ideal for the output from the transmission controller if this can be done.
Again, it's awesome you're getting after this one........
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/27/15 10:02 PM
Yes, it will have a 0 to 12v square wave output for speed. I did email the rostra folks to ask if a square wave will work with their system, but never heard back... maybe you'd have better luck than I did if you ask.
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/27/15 10:43 PM
I have one of their Rostra electronic cruise control setups and I looked in the installation book to see what their setup can read. There are multiple setups that the Rostra can read, but this one seemed like the most widely used one out there for the OEM's (i.e. 8000 pulses per mile), so I just picked that one. Also, the Rostra electronic cruise can read sine or square wave signals, there is a dip switch on the box for that as well -- so it's all good.
It would be great if you could incorporate an output specifically for the cruise, and another separate output for an electronic speedometer too. Would make it really easy for those of us that are electronics challenged........
Posted By: A727Tflite
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 05/29/15 05:32 PM
I believe we simply ground the solenoid field and then the solenoid closes the valve which then causes the lockup valve to move over. We call that ballistic converter apply as opposed to modulated converter apply.
We did that for everything in the old days.
In the old days - all electrically controlled lockup units - made no difference what model year or trans. That all changed when we went to 41TE (604). Many people are confused what electronics do on the old units, I think because we use different names like PTU (part throttle unlock) etc. The bottom line is we turn the lockup solenoid on or off to control lockup - but all it is at the end of the day - a solenoid opening or closing which makes the lockup valve or solenoid switch valve move. The valve has to move to get or shut off lockup. If the valve is stuck off - actuating the solenoid will accomplish nothing. OBDII will set the check engine light because the controls do not see engine speed reduction after the solenoid is activated.
The only duty cycle solenoids on Mopar transmissions that I am aware of now is the 41TE (604 family), RFE Family, 62TE, NAG1 and now the 8 and 9 speeds. For both lockup and shift control. As for using a PWM to control lockup, the converter and valve body were designed for an on/off solenoid. Again, the converter does not get "turned on" until that lockup valve moves over. A PWM solenoid will accomplish nothing to smooth the converter engagement as that valve moves very little to achieve L/U. plus the damper assembly within the converter was designed to cushion the lockup apply. By dragging the lockup disc too long you put more heat in to the disc. It wasn't designed to be slipped for cushioning.
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 06/01/15 08:39 AM
I was just reading something else that these RE transmissions might do, but I'm not sure -- I'm no transmission specialist by any stretch of the imagination, but this seems plausible so I'll let her rip:
If the transmission goes above a certain temperature, then the OD feature will not be able to engage (this would be controlled by the transmission controller logic). Would this also be the case for the LU torque converter? At any rate, if there is a temperature sensor on these transmissions, or one could be installed, this would be great logic to include with the controller as well. Would it also be possible to have a separate output from the controller to a transmission temperature gauge? I think that is a rather great thing if this could also be incorporated into this logic.
How's it going with the programming of this controller? Any idea when these might be available for operating a 46RE transmission?
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 06/01/15 10:16 PM
Yes, there is a temperature sensor internal to the transmission that I can read. In 2000 they change the sensor, but I have the voltage/temperature curves for each one. During setup it'll be calibrated in some manner so I know which one you have.
That said, I was planning to display the transmission temperature on the handheld screen. Outputting it to another gauge... might be possible, but probably not on the first or second revision.
The bare circuit boards should show up this week. My test vehicle is being delivered this week as well. Hopefully in a couple weeks I'll be to the point of testing control of the governor pressure solenoid. If that goes well, I'll have a lot more coding to do
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 06/01/15 10:36 PM
Awesome.........I think we are all watching this progress very closely.
Are you able to output separate signals to an electronic speedometer as well as a cruise control output signal? If not, is it a difficult thing to split the VSS signal? I just don't know how to do this to make it work before the transmission controller. I also don't know how the OEM's do it either -- but am willing to learn........
Thanks,
Mark
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 06/01/15 10:46 PM
I believe the VSS (two wire VR) signal itself can be split to go to two different places.
If the cruise control and electronic speedometer can both take a 0-12v square wave (at the same frequency), they can both be used on the one output from the controller.
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 06/02/15 12:12 AM
I know that Dakota Digital makes a signal splitter and that's what I was going to use, but if it was possible to do it with your controller -- I would get rid of one more complication. Here is the Dakota Digital Universal Speedometer Signal Interface:
Dakota Digital Speedo Interface If someone is going to be using the 46RE transmission, there is the problem of just the output from the transmission being an electronic signal. Those that use the stock speedometer cable setup will kind of be screwed, but there are workarounds (i.e. cable generators or changing to a GPS speedo). Those of us that will be using electronic speedometers will be all set -- I was just trying to get the electronic box count down in my car.
Mark
Posted By: A727Tflite
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 06/02/15 02:07 AM
Several temperature features are in the logic. Both RE and RH. If below a certain temperature you cannot get OD or LU. This is to promote warmup and prevent fluid starvation to the OD when super cold. The OD is the last guy to get fluid in the lube circuit. It comes from TC output like a 727 but the fluid enters the case like normal - then splits off once inside to lube the OD and the intermediate shaft and trans geartrain.
If TOO hot - above i think 265 F, then OD is defeated, shifts to 3rd, and LU is turned on to reduce converter slippage and resultant heat build up. Once the temp drops, then OD is allowed.
The controls look at neutral safety position, temperature, shaft speed, outside temperature, engine speed, to name a few things.
If neutral safety reports N or P, you lose OD. We watch for engine speed reduction when we turn on LU, if we do not see an engine speed drop in a certain amount of clock time- we set a TC code. Some of the inputs are used to verify plausibility when we get certain bad inputs or no inputs. Not sure what your controls logic is going to include but you may want to incorporate some of these for safety reasons.
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 06/02/15 09:47 PM
Will the transmission controller have a user customizable torque convertor lock up setting? With all of the different possibilities out there, this would be a great thing too.......
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 06/03/15 05:42 AM
Yea, I'm not entirely sure on the interface yet, but it will likely have the option to set lock and unlock speeds at different loads (for both OD and LU).
Transman, thanks for the info
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/05/15 06:47 PM
Any word on the development of the controller? How's it going?
Mark
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/05/15 08:52 PM
I have it controlling the governor/OD/LU solenoids on the bench.
Hopefully this week I can test controlling the solenoid in the jeeps transmission while it's running.
Assuming that goes well... I have a lot more code to write
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/06/15 04:23 AM
I for one appreciate you doing this, it's a lot of work but a really needed part. Plenty of 46RE's in the junkyard would suddenly become useable
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/10/15 01:30 AM
So... I, umm, ran into an issue.
There is absolutely no room under the jeep to disconnect the RE plug to plug in my own harness
Seriously, any tips from anyone that's done it before? I can't even touch one of the locking tabs to attempt to release it. Not that the other tab is moving either
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/10/15 03:15 AM
It's awesome you're taking this on, I agree.
Yikes, even modern Mopars throw curve balls. Anyway to just unbolt and lower the rear of transmission down from the rear tranny crossmember? I really don't know if it can be done, just guessing if there's no tranny tunnel access.
I really wish I was more of a help.........................
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/10/15 08:08 AM
Huzzah!
With creative use of three different screwdrivers, I got the plug off.
After some troubleshooting, I discovered that the shifter has to be in Drive before I can control the governor pressure solenoid. Otherwise the sensor always reads 0 psi.
Once I moved the shifter however, it appears that I have full control over the solenoid.
The highest voltage I got from the gov. pressure sensor was only ~2.6v (~70psi), and that was with either zero current commanded, or with the power supply line to the solenoid disconnected.
Posted By: A727Tflite
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/10/15 09:47 PM
A word of caution on the pressure sensor/transducer. There are basically two now - the metal can sensor (1999 and prior 4 pin plug) and the 2000 and later plastic body (with 4 blade connector). They have different operating resistances - mix them up and you have trouble. The temperature side I believe is where the differences are - i believe the control side are the same 5V feed, etc. You mention gov. pressure sensor voltage - when you pull the plug - 70 psi sounds about right - you can't have more gov psi than line psi. If you spin the engine higher on the stand and line pressure rises this gov. psi should too - the purpose of this default pressure is to put the trans in default and launch in 3rd gear to make it driveable - you should still be able to do a manual shifter pull down and launch in 1st gear.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/10/15 10:06 PM
My documentation shows a different resistance value for the temperature sensor between the different generations. I have a plan to calibrate the computer during initial set up.
I'm using a special driver IC that will monitor and adjust the current through the governor solenoid automatically. So I can tell it to drive any value up to 1A, and it will do it.
I'll have to put the jeep on jackstands to test the VSS, so I'll monitor the gov. pressure to see if it rises once it's 'moving' and line pressure increases.
Do you recall (or can you say) how often the stock vehicles sampled and updated the governor pressure?
Posted By: A727Tflite
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/13/15 04:03 AM
Don't recall the sampling rate - I'll see if i can dig that up.The scan tool does not respond anywhere at the same rate as the actual controller so don't get misled using that - you probably already know this.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/19/15 09:05 AM
Got some more testing done.
With a
very rudimentary feedback system, I'm moving 10psi in ~1 second. (while running at whatever pressure, I can tell it to target a pressure that's 10psi higher or lower, and it takes ~1 second to reach it)
Looking at the numbers, I think I can easily cut that adjustment time in half. At least when the fluid is nice and warm
.
This week I'm planning on driving the jeep for the first time with the controller. I don't have the logic implemented for OD/LU yet, but I have enough for basic speed->governor pressure control.
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/21/15 12:20 AM
Hoozie,
Just curious how confident you feel that you'll have a great working controller? I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a transmission, and I have a couple of choices, RH or RE.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/21/15 01:16 AM
Just got back from the first drive test. It was... uneventful. At light throttle it hit 3rd at about 30mph. 3/4 throttle it hit third at about 50mph. It had no trouble keeping the governor pressure at the current MPH.
Right now I'm doing just a 1:1 psi:mph ratio, so the higher shift was all due from the throttle lever.
Overall, I'm pleased. It won't be much more work to add a look up table to generate a lower/higher pressure:speed calculation to raise the shift points as desired.
It also shouldn't take too long to add the logic for OD & LU.
Hoozie,
Just curious how confident you feel that you'll have a great working controller? I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a transmission, and I have a couple of choices, RH or RE.
I'm pretty confident that once it's ready, the controller will be quite robust. I have a list of all the stock error conditions and codes. I can duplicate the test for the relevant ones, and in the event of an issue, I can show the stock error code.
If you (or anyone else) has a running & driving RE and wants to volunteer to do some testing and give me feedback, I can offer a steep discount on the controller.
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/21/15 01:22 AM
This is awesome to hear! I'll buy a controller once they hit the market, I've got a '67 Coronet with a 440 that I'd like to put a 4.10 in, but would only do it if an OD was going in as well. Considered a NAG1 (awesome tranny but hard to get to work),46RH, or a 4L60/80E. Was going to go with the 46RH but if you dome up with a programmable controller I'd go 46RE
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 07/21/15 01:33 AM
Awesome.
I wish I had a working setup -- but right now I don't. I'm going down the RE road -- so I'll definitely be needing one. My car is a ways away from being roadworthy too. I've got to get it to fit in the transmission tunnel -- otherwise it would be game on.
At any rate, I'm going to be looking for two of these bad boys just like I said in an earlier post.
Very glad you're doing this and I wish I could help more.
Posted By: DeMopuar
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 10/10/15 04:28 AM
Hoozie,
Any word on how the controller is going, or is it in a holding pattern?
Just curious is all.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 10/10/15 10:59 PM
Funny that you bumped this last night.
I was in a bit of a holding pattern, but just got back from another test drive. The first one with logic enabled to control OD and LU, and it
blew up did just fine.
The disengagement was a little rough, but I have OD and LU set to disengage at almost the same speed, so I think the roughness was just the RPM jump from both turning off at (almost) the same time.
Count the annulus lugs in the overdrive - the part that the park pawl engages (same lugs that the speed sensor senses) and then multiply that time revolutions per mile based on a given prop shaft speed.
Are these lugs going to have the same count, on every single 44/46/47/48 RE transmission? Near as I can tell by looking at my sensor outputs, there are roughly 64ish per each 1 driveshaft rotation.
Edit: I just went out and counted 23 lugs on a 2WD 46RE core I have.
Posted By: Moparmatty
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 11/13/15 06:37 AM
Posted By: Jwilli500
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 11/13/15 08:16 PM
The $750 price tag sure got my attention! Seems a bit excessive.
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 11/14/15 08:50 AM
Huh. Well, I guess that's that. *select all* *delete*
Their price really is reasonable, and is roughly what mine was going to cost.
Mine would have a few additional features, and wouldn't need a windows PC to configure it, but by going that route it adds quite a bit of cost.
This does take some of the wind out of my sails, and combined with a possible move and full time job in the next few months... So, if you need a controller right now, I'd take a serious look at what they have. I'll probably keep plugging away at mine, but with the potential move, the delivery timeline gets a bit fuzzy.
Posted By: Tobbe
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 09/11/16 01:31 PM
bump! any news ?
//T
Posted By: Speedog24
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 11/04/17 05:50 PM
So I’m going to bump an old thread, but I’ve been doing a lot of research and I’m interested in what you were working on. Is it still in the works? Any updates if so? If not, would you be interested in parting with what you have done so far? I’m going to be building/programming a module myself if you aren’t going to finish this one, as I don’t care for the one linked above, and I like the features you were going for in yours. Or maybe I could help further production on yours? I’m a carb intake away from a truck with a 5.9 46re stand-alone setup I could test on. (Albeit mine has 190k miles and could go at any time lol) What needs to be done to get this module to production?
Posted By: hooziewhatsit
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 11/05/17 06:42 AM
So I’m going to bump an old thread, but I’ve been doing a lot of research and I’m interested in what you were working on. Is it still in the works? Any updates if so? If not, would you be interested in parting with what you have done so far? I’m going to be building/programming a module myself if you aren’t going to finish this one, as I don’t care for the one linked above, and I like the features you were going for in yours. Or maybe I could help further production on yours? I’m a carb intake away from a truck with a 5.9 46re stand-alone setup I could test on. (Albeit mine has 190k miles and could go at any time lol) What needs to be done to get this module to production?
Well... the prototype worked well enough controlling the governor pressure compared to the road speed. But, there was no way to adjust anything, nor any temperature/4lo compensation.
It really needs a LOT more programming to be anywhere near user friendly. Currently the idea was to use a hand held 4x20 character display to do all the programming (@ $120). I could make it use a PC, but that requires a laptop, and another program and more tech support. Or throw a bluetooth module on it and have it talk to a phone, but if I do just android, that cuts out half the market. Or I need to do two more mobile apps for apple and android.
Beyond that, one of the first main hangups is that I really know relatively little about transmissions and troubleshooting them. So if a customer installs this and says it slips or does something weird, I have no way to help them figure that out, other then sending them here
Secondly, I never did find a good source for any of the electrical plugs the harness needs (the 8 pin RE is $50 with pins already crimped, no good source for the speed sensor plugs, etc). With base costs like that, I'd have to charge at least $700-800 each to make it worthwhile, which seems higher than most would want to pay.
I also don't have the vehicle I was testing it on anymore, so I don't a way to test it.
Finally, I also recently got a full time job, and we're working on starting up a laser engraving business, so I don't have that much free time anymore to spend on it.
Posted By: Speedog24
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) - 11/06/17 07:32 AM
Ok, so challenge accepted
I have the time, vehicle, and resources to make this happen. Besides all the discussion in this thread, do you have any other good info for the theory of operation you were following??
What hardware did you base your design around? And what language were you programming in? I have experience working with c, c++, and some python.
Would you consider parting with your prototype design, and let me continue it? Or am I better starting from scratch?
I am no trans expert, but I have rebuilt several autos and studied operational theories in respective atsg manuals and the like. I think there could be a few ways to reduce some hardware costs, and I’m willing to fry my trans trying. (It needs rebuilt before long any way). Feel free to PM me, I’d be happy to discuss ideas