Moparts
STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE)
Posted By: Anonymous
STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/17/08 10:10 PM
in my 22 years as a mechanic.. never ever ran into this kinda problem. so here goes....
1997 neon, replaced the front pads, adjusted up the rear shoes and whoa, no pedal.
changed the master cylinder (bench bled), bled the brakes, still no pedal.
changed the m/c again, still no pedal. checked all the lines, wheel cylinder etc,
no leaks. bled them a 3rd and 4th time, still no pedal. when i mean no pedal..
i mean right to the floor. what the heck is going on here?
Posted By: dave571
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/17/08 10:23 PM
I've seen on these fwd chryslers, that it is very important to have a wheel nut holding the rotors in place when you put the calipers back on.
If not, it's easy for it to be installed cocked off to one side. Looks fine, but's it's crooked. The pedal travel is all taken up straightening it back out again.
The guy who did it in my shop had 30 plus years of trade experience, so it can happen to anyone.
Something to check anyway.
Posted By: stumpy
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/17/08 10:24 PM
Start from the begining. What happened to need the brake swap? When you say no pedal does that mean it never pumps up or what?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/17/08 10:28 PM
just came in cause the pads where worn out. still had lots of pedal. changed the
front pads, the brake pedal went right to the floor, i told my helper its normal,
and just pump up the brakes. but they would not pump up. they just go right to the floor.
Dave571.. did the wheel nut to hold the rotor thing. thanks
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/17/08 10:29 PM
I was sure it was the wind....
Posted By: stumpy
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/17/08 10:32 PM
Are the caliper pistons pushed too far in so they are in a bind? Do they move when you pump the brake?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/17/08 10:36 PM
yah, there was enough there to hold the wheels. front and back. i also adjusted the rear shoes up.
i visually looked to see if the calipars and wheel cylinders were moving, they were.
Posted By: therocks
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 12:20 PM
Had an Itntepid at work with the same kind of problem.New pads all around and no pedal.Installed new master as it was bad still no pedal.It was the PP valve that is for non ABS brakes only.Couldnt get any pressure or fluid especially the rears.A new block from dealer and great brakes.Rocky
Posted By: 79powerwagon
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 12:33 PM
Maybe I'm too anal about brakes, but this is why when my brakes are about 5-7 years old and needing a pad change, I simply dive in and replace the ENTIRE brake system, including hard and soft lines. Yes, it's bucks, but it sure eliminates the frustrations kinda like you're going through now!
Of course, you say this is a customer's car, so they won't want to cough up the ching to do it, but for my personal vehicles, this is what I always do.
Money well spent, in my opinion!
Posted By: mark7171
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 01:52 PM
pushed tooo far from the pumping right?
with it assembled did you check if the brake booster held pressure? if its the booster ...right to the floor, with a lil bit of a pop noise too.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 02:50 PM
Almost sounds like your master is too small. The first one may have been damaged or got something in the piston cup to cause the master bypass and go bad but the replacements do not have enough volume to pump up the brakes. After a couple quick pumps does the pedal come up?
I've always heard but never experience that if you push too much or too hard when bleeding the master you could damage it.
Another thing could be a big air buble in the system that got pushed in when the master was replaced. On some cars this air can be a total pain to remove with out pressure bleeding. Are you using a power bleeder or manually bleeding it?
Good luck
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 03:24 PM
pedal woudn't come up no matter what. and yah.. manually bleeding it, no power
bleeder. if theres still air in it, its hiding pretty good
. i'll try
gravity bleed it today, if that fails, then i'll change porportioning valve.
stupid neon messing up my whole long weekend
Posted By: DoctorDiff
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 03:28 PM
Make sure the bleeders are facing upward.
I just had a customer with the same problem. He didn't notice the calipers were upside down.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 03:38 PM
well they face to the "side". otherwise they are at its highest point.
Posted By: GODSCOUNTRY340
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 04:09 PM
When you compressed the pistons did you loosen the bleeders to relieve the pressure or force it back into the MC? If you forced it back to the MC you may have damaged the proportioning valve. Just a thought.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 05:59 PM
Got ABS?
If so there is a specific method to bleed them, the regular old style doesn't do it.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 09:49 PM
no abs. tried everything today, including replacing the p-valve. result? same thing
this thing is gonna be the death of me. did 100's of brake jobs.. replace the front pads,
adjust the rear drums, out the DOOR no problem. this thing is driving me
gonna save it to tuesday, get a vacuum bleeder and try again. thanks for the help
everyone
Trial and error. There are only a number of components. Check, check again, and then recheck.
Remember, NEVER count on "new parts" to be in working order, no matter what the box says.
Good luck, let us know what happens.
Posted By: RobR
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 11:20 PM
It can only really be two things...Master cyl or air...When you bench bled the master cyl did notice if fluid leaked out immediately after you pored in the fluid? (rule of thumb..if the fluid comes by the residual pressure valve immediately after pore put it back in the box) You've covered all the bases go back to the master...My guess is the check valve is not holding ...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/18/08 11:43 PM
CHRONiklyDEMONic.. i know never to trust "new" parts.. i will keep yall posted tho.
RobR.. damn near replace everything twice or three times (master cylinder).
Its gotta be air somewhere.. even tho the brakes bleed normally (ie: no air coming out).
m/c checked out just peachy.
It started out as a simple 15min change the pad thing.. which is now on day two.
Posted By: bschargerse
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/19/08 01:30 AM
See if you can borrow one of those "phoenix injectors" that reverse bleeds the system, basically pushes the air back to the MC from the bleeder screw. I have a tech friend who swears by it. Worth a shot.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/19/08 01:39 AM
never heard of those. i'll ask when i go get the vac. bleeder.
Posted By: quick77rt
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/19/08 04:13 AM
porportioning valve problem, I never thought they could go bad, dont know whats in them, check valves, or balls but they do go bad and sounds like this could be one of them...
remember when you compress the calips your pushing fluid back when its supposed to be going the other way?????
Let us know please....
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/19/08 04:28 AM
replace
BOTH p-valves. notta
i keep the m/c cap of when i push the pistons back.
but i'll tell yah.. so far i'm lookin' like a clown in my customers eyes.
Posted By: p d'ro
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/20/08 08:51 PM
So what happened today????? Gotta know... What else would cause the pedal not to come back up? I have heard of an internal break in the rubber line acting like a one way valve, so the pedal will not come back after it is pushed... I would replace the rubber lines. They are probably old as hell...
Posted By: FuryUs
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/20/08 09:27 PM
Quote:
So what happened today????? Gotta know... What else would cause the pedal not to come back up? I have heard of an internal break in the rubber line acting like a one way valve, so the pedal will not come back after it is pushed... I would replace the rubber lines. They are probably old as hell...
It's a '97 Neon--hell's way older than that. The collpsed line wouldn't allow the pedal to the floor if everything else was good.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/20/08 10:14 PM
Quote:
Quote:
So what happened today????? Gotta know... What else would cause the pedal not to come back up? I have heard of an internal break in the rubber line acting like a one way valve, so the pedal will not come back after it is pushed... I would replace the rubber lines. They are probably old as hell...
It's a '97 Neon--hell's way older than that. The collpsed line wouldn't allow the pedal to the floor if everything else was good.
If one of the rubber lines was balloning then I could see it as a brake line but the lines are not that old. I would inspect them though
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/20/08 10:42 PM
Quote:
replace BOTH p-valves. notta
i keep the m/c cap of when i push the pistons back.
but i'll tell yah.. so far i'm lookin' like a clown in my customers eyes.
I hate that esp on something as simple as a pad swap.
As long as you find out the problem before the customer does and he does not tow it out before then, you are safe.
Good luck
Posted By: GODSCOUNTRY340
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/20/08 11:29 PM
I've found this problem on two Neons, a '96 & '98. Remove both rear drums and make sure the shoes are still attached to the steel mount. They're just glued and do come off. Both cars had very low pedal and the owners couldn't figure it out. The shoes actually came loose and were at the bottom of the drum so when adjusting them you could feel drag but since there was no shoe left at the top, when brakes were applied the wheel cylinders would travel all the way out but push on nothing, causing low or no pedal.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/21/08 02:50 AM
found the problem. my helper wasn't following my orders on when to pump the brakes and when to hold them.
suffice to say.. he's no longer my helper. thanks for all your reply's guys
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/21/08 03:41 AM
Quote:
found the problem. my helper wasn't following my orders on when to pump the brakes and when to hold them.
suffice to say.. he's no longer my helper. thanks for all your reply's guys
Relying on someone other than yourself is one of the hardest things to do. Hopefully you still have a loyal customer.
oh and thats why I got a brake bleeder a long time ago.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/21/08 03:47 AM
yah, i did it myself. jar filled with brake fluid and a hose from the bleeder to the jar.
i didn't charge her for all the extra stuff, wasn't her fault.. so i ate it.
she was very happy
Posted By: CHRONiklyDEMONic
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/21/08 03:50 AM
LOL!
Posted By: RodStRace
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/21/08 01:20 PM
I'm glad it's fixed and the customer is happy. I have to wonder though; When I'm at a wheel yelling "Pump" and Hold", I can feel the pressure changes. Either the instructions were not good, or the guy was really dumb. I've had (stereotype warning) blonde exotic dancers be able to perform the driver's seat part of the bleeding procedure.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/21/08 01:31 PM
mabey it was me.. who knows..
Posted By: quick77rt
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/21/08 01:58 PM
Man thats crazy, my girl cant boil water, but she helped bleed the brakes in my van, if you scream loud enough most will listen.
Glad its fixed, there is always the do it alone method, either a rubber strap on pedal from the backside or the concrete block leaning on the pedal, pop bleader let it go a few seconds re-set block.....
Glad its fixed though, I would of went nuts...thats why I can only work on my on crap.
Posted By: GODSCOUNTRY340
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/21/08 05:41 PM
I knew that's what it was. I just wanted to see how long it took for you to figure it out.
Posted By: VITC_GTX
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/21/08 07:16 PM
Quote:
Man thats crazy, my girl cant boil water, but she helped bleed the brakes in my van, if you scream loud enough most will listen.
Now that's funny...and true!!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/22/08 03:00 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Man thats crazy, my girl cant boil water, but she helped bleed the brakes in my van, if you scream loud enough most will listen.
Now that's funny...and true!!
very funny
that kid has been retardo since day one. this was just the last straw.
Posted By: 9 Sec Phill
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/22/08 03:21 AM
delete
Posted By: Polarapete
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! - 05/22/08 06:23 AM
I once did a master cylinder replacement on a VW Rabbit and could not get pedal after bleeding the brakes many times. Finally discovered pin holes in the hard brake lines leading from front to rear in the perimeter of the driver's footwell!! Car had a water leak in the cowl and soaked the carpet backing, kept the tubing wet and over the years pinholes developed! Trace the metal lines and verify no leaks is my suggestion.
Posted By: Magnum
Re: STOP on a dime? NOT! (UPDATE) - 05/22/08 12:37 PM
Quote:
Man thats crazy, my girl cant boil water, but she helped bleed the brakes in my van, if you scream loud enough most will listen.
Glad its fixed, there is always the do it alone method, either a rubber strap on pedal from the backside or the concrete block leaning on the pedal, pop bleader let it go a few seconds re-set block.....
That made me laugh, the storey about your girl.
Also love your no helper method. That's ingenious.
I've had to get my kids to help me on occasion. My boys are old enough 8 and 13 to help out but there has been a few times my girl, who is 5, was the only one available. I'd disconnect the throttle cable, run the engine and have her pump the pedal. Watch for brake lights and crack the screw.
Quote:
I wouldn't go any more (less?) than 1 degree negative. Actually, to me that is a little excessive and is bordering on tire wear, IMHO. Maybe some of these others with more experience in racing setups have a different opinion, but I don't think I'd go anymore than 1/2 degree negative.
I totally agree dodgeram440. Especially on a car with 17" rubber. Mostly likely low profile tires.
On a skinny tire car. A couple of degrees of neg camber is not a tire wear issue. Neg is great for cornering and every bit extra on a skinny front tire car helps.