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Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 04:35 PM

Still playing with cam choice in a street / strip 451. For a car thats going to weekend duty and the drag strip 4-6 times a year, what would be your choice?, and why?
Posted By: topside

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 04:45 PM

If you want to play with the tune-up, or if optimizing the power is important to you, I'd say solid lifters. If you'd rather drive it than tune on it, and aren't looking for every .010 you can get out of it, hydraulic makes sense. RPM needs also weigh into the decision.
If you're really after max power, you'd be thinking roller. My
solid lifter cars aren't really that time-consuming to maintain, but the last few motors that see street duty have all had hydraulics. On the race car though I fiddle with the lash.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 05:01 PM

I like to tinker in the garage & don't mind adjusting the lash a few times a year, so that doesn't bother me. I already have a set of adjustable rockers, so there's no issues there. What about engine reliablility?
Just ran a few cams through CamQuest. To no suprise, a smaller solid makes a little more HP and way more torque, what did suprise me was that the peak HP was made lower in the RPM band (5500 w/ the XS274S vs 6000 w/ the XE285HL). Peak Torque and HP falling within 1500 RPM of each other looks pretty good!
Posted By: 5spdcuda

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 05:51 PM

Solids make power & rpm. Maintenance on mild streetable grinds shouldn't be a problem either. In the past I've used solids in both wedge and Hemi engines without any problems.
Now we have new issues to consider that we didn't have years ago. Flat tappets solid or hydraulic are failing much more often than they used to. Rollers are the obvious solution to this problem, but I have real doubts about solid rollers having 100,000 mile plus reliability, which is my personal definition of true streetablity. I think that even with relatively weak spring pressures the axle bearings on a solid roller will be hammered pretty hard due to the required valve lash. OEM hydraulic rollers on the other hand have proven to have good long term reliability.
Aluminum heads, we didn't have them years ago. Now we do and they're great. Light weight, good flow OTB, easy to repair, less time involved in porting etc. They also expand and contract more than the iron blocks they're bolted to. This of course affects valve lash. I don't think that this is a real big deal, but it is one more argument in favor of hydraulics.
I am presently using a Comp 284 xe flat tappet hydraulic in my aluminum headed small blk. I expect it will be the last flat tappet cam I'll ever use. Next time, hydraulic roller.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 06:03 PM

I just ordered a solid & a set of EDM'ed lifters..From my experiance Big Block Mopars valve covers are gonna leak so you should be pulling them off pretty regularly anyway so why not run the valves while your there...The EDM"ed lifters will put oil right at the contact point of the cam/lifter hopefully reducing the likelyhood of a cam failure....There is proven performance gain with the solid...Why Not???
Posted By: quick77rt

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 06:09 PM

I know it was not mentioned but if rpm is not the issue why not a hydro-roller? I almost went that route vs a std roller but even the best kit I could find was under 7k rpm and I needed a bit more. So I went with the mech roller.

Prior to that a solid worked much better then any std hyd cam ever could.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 06:24 PM

there is one issue... I run Pro-Comp stainless roller-tip rockers that have oiling provisions through the pushrods. the adjuster stud is machined for oil passage, and oil into the rocker assembly. is there any such thing as an oil through solid lifter?
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 06:26 PM

Oil thru lifters are easy to find.
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 06:29 PM

I will go with a Hydraulic. The new grinds of hydraulics and lifter design have changed the RPM range so that valve float & lifter pump up doesn't happen at nearly as low an RPM as it used to.
As for hundred thousand mile rollers, they probably would but not with the spring pressures and cam profiles run in these engines. Any way who has to worry about that kind of miles on these cars that are being built will never see close to that.
In my first sentence I should have said that I would go with a hydraulic if I were to build another engine which is very doubtful. In fact I am very close to advertising the car and trailer for sale and getting out of it all together. Only went to 2 show this summer and didn't miss it in the least. Maybe if I were feeling better I would but haven't felt like doing anything and having to settle for doing just that. But Yeah come early spring I think that the package will be for sale.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 06:39 PM

Lets not even consider rollers, Hyd. or solid. It's just not in the budget.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 06:48 PM

All of the OEM's have gone to roller cams. This has caused the oil producers to eliminate Zink. Zink is hard on Cat converters but is nesacary for lubrication on solid lifters. Rotella was the last producer to include Zink. And that was supposed to be discontinued in 08. Trust me I learned this the hard way.
Posted By: bbodybill

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 07:12 PM

No one has mentioned the aspect of the SOUND of solid lifters... Had a '66 Shelby Mustang and the solid lifters added immensely to the enjoyment of driving that puppy...
Posted By: solidcam

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 07:54 PM

This is a no brainer.A solid cam is giong to outperform a hydrualic any day.Tests have shown increases over a Hydrualic of the same duration and lift with compensation for lash and other factors.Did you go to all the effort to build your performance engine to sacrifice power?
At the point where a Hydrualic falls off the solid keeps going.If you want to go aggressive without going solid-roller you can even look at a Mushroom cam.
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 08:02 PM

Quote:

This is a no brainer.A solid cam is giong to outperform a hydrualic any day.Tests have shown increases over a Hydrualic of the same duration and lift with compensation for lash and other factors.Did you go to all the effort to build your performance engine to sacrifice power?
At the point where a Hydrualic falls off the solid keeps going.If you want to go aggressive without going solid-roller you can even look at a Mushroom cam.



Not nessessarly. A solid cam with the same lift and duration specs will be a lesser cam than the hydraulic and performance will show it. A .528 solid will be about equal to a 509 after lash is figured in.
Posted By: solidcam

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 08:35 PM

Yes.In my post the tests I refered to had taken into account the lash,they were running solids that after lash etc equaled the hydrualic profiles as close as possible.The outcome was they still outperformed their hydrualic counterparts
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 11:02 PM

I am saying that you have to take the lash into account. don't just buy a 528 solid thinking that you will have more cam than say the 509. You won't. In fact the 509 will out perform the 528 in many cases.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 11:06 PM

Quote:

In fact the 509 will out perform the 528 in many cases.




What way is that?? Certainly not performance wise...Maybe in poor idle quality..

Sorry the 509 has never particularly impressed me..
Posted By: mike s

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 11:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

In fact the 509 will out perform the 528 in many cases.




What way is that?? Certainly not performance wise...Maybe in poor idle quality..

Sorry the 509 has never particularly impressed me..





The 509 will make more H.P. and less torque than the 528 in an engine with a real 10-10.5 comp ratio.If it's too low the .509 is a just a noise maker.The latest .509 and the .484 with the revised LC have much better street manners.

One more point about the zinc levels.They have been reduced not eliminated.800 PPM or less is about the average for regular oils.1500 PPM is the safe level.Add an additive to raise the level to the safe level or buy one of the very expensive oils that do have enough zinc.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 11:42 PM

Quote:


The 509 will make more H.P. and less torque than the 528 in an engine with a real 10-10.5 comp ratio.If it's too low the .509 is a just a noise maker.The latest .509 and the .484 with the revised LC have much better street manners.





The last engine I built with a 509 was 20+ years ago, forged TRW sixpack pistons, 915 heads, a true 10.5 motor...The 509 was such a dog down low I put Rhoades lifters on it which helped tremedously but it sounded like a race boat the lifters were twice as loud as a well adjusted solid lifter....

I've taken 509 cams out of four cars & only installed two, both times I felt there were better cams out there....
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/07/08 11:46 PM

The 528 was a much more street friendly cam. The 509 was more ratty and but ET'd better. In more than 1 instance and all these cams were all degreed in not put in dot to dot. Oh yeah this was with both the old grind Racer Brown 508 and the MP 509 in different cars and engines.
Posted By: quickd100

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/08/08 12:34 AM

At one time or another I've run most of the hydralic and solid grinds from MP in a wedge. Once I went to a solid I decided never to go back to a hydralic.
Look at the thousands of /6's out there that have never seen a lash adjustment. My 528 hemi, reset the lash after breakin, installed the inner springs, checked the lash this spring and nothing had changed. I'll check it again next spring. You soon get used to the sound of solids, it's like music to my ears now. Dave
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/08/08 12:36 AM

The solid I'm considering is the Comp XS274S. Plugging it into the CamQuest program, it showed about 10 more HP @ 500 RPM less, and nearly 40 lb/ft of torque advantage over the XE285HL. Its description says it also requires less compression and converter than the 285, which leads me to believe it would be more streetable. Lets see..... more power, lower in the band, and better streetablility???? Is there anything here that doesn't sound good?
Posted By: solidcam

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/08/08 12:42 AM

Run the solid and don't buy into any argument that a hydrualic will work better.Listen to the other posters who have run both and you will soon see why people like them.It is a no brainer.
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/08/08 12:48 AM

Quote:

Run the solid and don't buy into any argument that a hydrualic will work better.Listen to the other posters who have run both and you will soon see why people like them.It is a no brainer.


I didn't say that the hydraulic works better. What I said is to watch the lift ratings and and take the solid lash adjustment into consideration as to final lift. I did say that the 508/509 out performed the 528 and all were degreed. The 557 out performed the 509/508 hands down. Also there are some classes that hydraulics are the rule.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/08/08 01:16 AM

So, the specs on the XS274S are: 238*&.502 in. / 242*& .510 ex. on a 110*cl. I like the power potential I see, but are there any others I should consider that may offer a little more lift.

I know I shouldn't get hung up in wanting a "big" cam. I don't want to fall into the trap of overcamming. I've come to consider the Mopar grinds outdated compared to other brands that have continually updated their technology.... should I consider one of the Mopar solids?
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/08/08 01:26 AM

Just my . I'm a big fan of solid lifters,but hyd cam still have a place. The problem that I see with hyd cams is whether the hyd lifter can accuratly do what the cam tells it to. With the mild old school hyd cams it generally is easy to get a good match,as cam companies realized the public would buy the faster rate must make more hp theory they designed them,the hyd lifter often causes this to end in dissapointment. There are plenty of hyd cam lobes that don't require anything special to run well at 7000rpm and some that are a pain to reach 6000rpm with lots of "special" parts. Solids eliminate the hyd uncertainty. Hope it makes sense?
Posted By: 76318dart

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/08/08 02:55 AM

I ran a .528 cam in my 318. The car ran mid 13's, I put in a .488/.510 hyd. and it ran high 12's. I won't go back to a solid. Yes the new cam was probably a better fit but I was sick of doing the valve lash.
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/08/08 03:10 AM

Setting the valve lash is not a very frequent activity ,but some seem to struggle with it.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/08/08 04:28 AM

This is a weekend driver that goes around 2500 miles & sees the strip a few times a year. I think I would adjust the lash once a year in the winter. If I had to do it once more a year.... no big. I enjoy garage time.

I took a look at Mopars solid cam selection. I don't think there's much updated technology there.
Posted By: R70RUNNER

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/08/08 06:03 AM

I get the idea that Don was saying it's apples to oranges with HYD to SOLID... I've struggled with this too... Since it's a theoretical, on EXACTLY when things happen on a cam anyway. Toooooo many variables. People took the .528 vs .509 as literal when it is only an example... .528 MP vs .509 MP is 112 LSA vs 108 LSA...Now that's apples to walnuts ..Not to put any words in Knowsnothings's mouth but what he was getting at is all things being EQUAL, LSA, Installed ICL, ect...

FWIW there are some tremendous HYD cams on the market and should be not dismissed so easily by those who have not run one yet.

Cost is a factor as I understand on this build You're going to need adjust-ability somewhere...If you go solid, were is that ADJ going to be? quality rockers are not cheap, I have $500 in my Comp mags on my 383...and cheap rockers are not quality, ask those that have run CATS ... Adj push rods are a special order, again not cheap soooo....
Posted By: Big-Mike

Re: Lets talk Solid vs. Hydraulic cams - 09/08/08 06:18 AM

Guys! I see comments here on cams wearing out because of the lack of Sulphur in the oil.
This is so true & its an easy fix.
Use a single viscosity oil for Four-Stroke Diesel engines.
These still have the much higher Sulphur content to lubricate.
Have a look at what Dave Hughes @ Hughes Engines in his Tech: column has to say about it.
He is spot-on!
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