Moparts
Testing a 1995 neon coil pack?
Posted By: hellrzr
Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? - 01/06/11 08:57 PM
I just bought a 1995 Neon as a commuter car to hopefully save a ton of gas money. The guy dropped the price because it suddenly had a miss fire that he said it didn’t have a month ago when he last drove it. So last night I mess with it and start pulling plug wires off the plugs one at a time while it’s running. All but one plug sparked the entire way while pulling it out of the tube and then sparked around the tube so they seemed to have a lot of spark. One plug didn’t spark much at all while pulling it out and seemed weak. The car did run worse after pulling the plug so it is firing some. I’m guessing it’s the coil pack but I would like to test it to be sure before buying new one. Can anyone tell me the best way to test it? Also, if anyone has ideas of what else could be causing the miss fire I would love to hear them.
Thanks!
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? - 01/07/11 12:25 AM
i had a coil pack go bad on my old crown vic. I knew it was on the drivers side so I pulled one at a time until I found one that didn't change the way the car ran..replaced it and it was good to go. Sounds like you know which one it is. It's either that or a bad fuel injector
Posted By: DaveRS23
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? - 01/07/11 02:34 AM
Before you change/check the coil, try trading that plug wire with the other one like it. I haven't seen many bad coils, but have seen a butt load of bad plug wires.
Let us know how that goes.
Posted By: therocks
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? - 01/07/11 01:30 PM
I agree.Ive seen a bunch of bad wires.A good set is less than 20 bucks.Lots cheaper than a coil pack.Ive replaced only 1 coil pack in the last 10 years on them.Rocky
Posted By: hellrzr
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/07/11 04:44 PM
Thanks guys! I messed with it more last night. I ended up dropping $25 on a junkyard coil pack and it didn’t make any difference. I can swap it out for another one though just to be sure that pack is also not bad. I then got my brothers 2000 Neon to swap plug wires with. His wires were too short to fit on the ’95 but the ’95 wires fit on his car so I tried that and his car ran fine with those wires. They are aftermarket wires though. I’ve seen some commits that people have used a longer plug wire on cylinder #2 and that has stopped mis-fires for some people so I’ll try that this weekend.
The guy I bought it from says he was a mechanic and is now a shop manager. He got the car and was driving it around when the water pump broke causing all heck to break loose and the valves getting bent. He took it apart and put on a re-built head along with all the other parts you replace while doing that. He said the car ran fine and he drove it for another 8 weeks before his wife decided to get a new car so then he took her old car and didn’t need the Neon anymore so he decided to sell it. After placing the ad he realized the car had not been started for about a month so he went to drive it and it had the mis-fire in it. He decided to drop the price and just sell it. Maybe I should have mentioned the entire story to start off with but I really thought it was the coil pack or plug wires. It could still be the plug wires I guess. I am trusting that he is telling the truth and he drove the car after it was back together. I live in a fairly small town and he is also from town and he said I can contact him with questions if I have trouble getting it running good. So I hate to think he scammed me but who knows. I’m worried he may have lied and after getting it together maybe realized he put the timing belt on wrong and it’s off a tooth and he really has not driven it since he got it back together. I’m not sure how bad it would run in the timing belt is off a tooth. You can drive down the road but it doesn’t have much power and cuts out the entire time. It will idle ok but once you get on the gas it starts to mis-fire. I just know I can’t keep paying $70 a week in gas for my truck and I don’t have money to throw this car away and get another one so I really need to get this one running somehow.
Thanks for the help and any more ideas you might have after hearing the whole story.
Posted By: aduster340
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/07/11 07:16 PM
DOHC or SOHC? Any codes? Pull the plug and find TDC on #1 and check the mark(s) on the cam gear(s) to see if it's off a tooth. Could be a bad injector, $5 at u-pull. I'd check the codes first.
Posted By: hellrzr
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/07/11 09:41 PM
Quote:
DOHC or SOHC? Any codes? Pull the plug and find TDC on #1 and check the mark(s) on the cam gear(s) to see if it's off a tooth. Could be a bad injector, $5 at u-pull. I'd check the codes first.
SOHC, 2.0. No check engine light, and that bothers me to because if it was a mis-fire shouldn't that make the light turn on? I tried the key on-off thing but don't think I did it right, nothing happened anyway. Dumb question but I haven't messed with cars much since my Road Runner got done a few years ago so I'm rusty and I haven't messed with these small motors much in general. At TDC where should the cam gear mark be? At 0? To see it I'm guessing you have to take the belt shroud off right? Maybe it is an injector. While looking at my brothers car I also pulled the plug wires on it while it was running and the spark pattern looked about the same as on my car, if that even means much. Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree thinking it's electrical. I read somewhere that to check an injector you can put a piece of rubber tubbing against it and you should be able to hear it clicking open and closed if it's working. Is this a valid method of testing them? My folks have a neighbor who has worked on a couple of Neons so maybe I'll bother him this weekend and see what he thinks. Thanks for all the help and keep any ideas I can test this weekend coming please!
Also, does anyone know if there is a pump or something under the passenger side seat. I haven't crawled under it yet but when I turn the key on something hums and then makes noise while the car is running. Almost sounds like a pump but I'm sure the fuel pump would be back by the fuel tank wouldn't it? I guess I'm presuming it's from under the car and not under the seat, sounds too muffled to be from under the seat I think.
Posted By: gtx6970
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/07/11 10:47 PM
fuel pump is under the pass side rear seat area.
just because an injector clicks doesn't mean it's working right(you can ck it without about anything ridged put to it and to your ear to ck for the click)
Posted By: kenworth_goose
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/07/11 11:50 PM
When you turn the key on do you see the check engine light? If you don't someone took the bulb out of it.
Posted By: hellrzr
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/08/11 12:18 AM
I think the engine light kicks on but I don't remember for sure so I'll take a look. I'm hoping to work on it again on Saturday.
Posted By: aduster340
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/08/11 12:41 AM
Quote:
At TDC where should the cam gear mark be? At 0? To see it I'm guessing you have to take the belt shroud off right?
Pull the inspection plug off the front cover. At TDC the mark on the cam gear should line up with the arrow on the rear cover.
Assuming the previous owner didn't pull the bulb, key on, off, on, off and then back on to get the codes. There will always be at least one code, 55, which is end of codes.
Posted By: AARCONV
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/08/11 12:42 AM
sounds like he did something..maybe a tooth or so off....was a mechanic?....
Posted By: DaveRS23
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/08/11 02:12 AM
If you said that it runs smooth until you load the engine, that sounds like an ignition issue to me. Internal derangement doesn't come and go.
Have you had the plugs out yet? Pull them and run a compression test. Check the plugs out good, make sure they are okay, and that there is no oil or water in the tubes. Also, smell the plug wire boot to see if any smell electrically burnt. Arching from the boot to the tube is common. It usually happens under load and can be tough to find, but leaves a very distinct smell.
Make sure that the CEL lights up when the key is switched on. If not, then I smell a rat. If so, switch the key on and off 3 times leaving it on the last time. You should get at least a couple of normal codes.
Keep feeding us info and we may just be able to work through this.
If you want to, you can PM me and we can get together on the phone.
Dave
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/08/11 03:05 AM
bet monie that it blew timming belt ,, replace said belt
now has a miss
mmmm bent valve s
Posted By: hellrzr
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/08/11 06:41 AM
Thanks for all the great ides! He said he was a mechanic but is. now a shop manager. He said he has changed tons of timing belts in various cars. The belt did break and the valves were bent but he said he put on a store bought rebuilt head. I may not get to mess with it again until Sunday. Ill check for codes and see.if the lights work at that time. Would a bad crank sensor make it miss or would it just not run at all if that was the case?
Posted By: therocks
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/08/11 01:06 PM
I had one that had a miss under load.Changed plugs and it was good.The wierdest thing was I put Champions in and it still did it.Customer insisted that I install plugs from Mopar.Bought a set even though they were Champions and the miss stopped.Was really wierd.Rocky
Posted By: DaveRS23
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/10/11 01:40 AM
The cam or crank sensor will not make them miss in my experience. A weak sensor may quit once in a while especially when it warms up, but usually not cause a miss.
Remember that this is a lost spark type of system. The plug fires every time the piston comes up, on compression AND exhaust. Number 1 and number 4 fire together and 2 and 3 fire together. So there is no control for each individual cylinder. Knowing this makes it much easier to track down a miss that is unique to 1 cylinder.
Posted By: ahy
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/10/11 03:48 AM
I've had two gen 1 Neons... great cars but touchy about plugs and wires. I've had a miss due to tired wires several times but never due to the coil pack. A set of wires may be in order.
Posted By: hellrzr
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/10/11 04:31 PM
The guy did put new plugs in. I'm wondering if the car really did run after he worked on it or if maybe he got it back together and it had the miss and he was upset he couldn't figure out how to fix the miss and sold it. If he really drove it for a few weeks and then it sat the plugs or wires wouldn't have suddenly gone bad from sitting for a month would they? I have some plugs for my sisters 2000 neon I can try in my car, we didn't get them installed in her car before she got rid of it. Maybe I should go ahead and get a new set of plug wires. Should I just get some after market ones or do you need to get Mopar ones?
I had a little time to mess with it last night. The check engine light does come on with the key so it should be working. I tried to get the codes by doing the key on-off thing but I couldn't get any codes to come up. I must have been doing it wrong because it did nothing at all. The engine does idle fine so the problem seems to just be when it's under load. Hopefully that eliminates the timing belt maybe being installed wrong. From what I could tell all the injectors were clicking but I went ahead and unplugged them one at a time and each one had an effect on how the motor was running so it seems that at idle all the cyliders are getting fuel and spark.
Do these cars have a jack to plug in a code reader? A friend of mine has a reader and would check the codes that way for me since I can't get the key method to work. Although if there were any codes to read shouldn't the check engine light be on all the time?
Posted By: DaveRS23
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/11/11 02:37 AM
Your Neon is OBDII so the scan tool will work. If you have a current problem that the computer detects it will set the CEL lite. Even if everything is good to go you should get a code 55 (end of codes) and usually a code 12 (battery disconnect within 50 start cycles).
Is the miss intermittent or does a specific cylinder drop out? Figuring that out will help a lot. Can you put on the emergency brake and block the tires so that you can load the engine and duplicate the miss at rest?
Posted By: ahy
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/11/11 04:21 AM
Quote:
The guy did put new plugs in. I'm wondering if the car really did run after he worked on it or if maybe he got it back together and it had the miss and he was upset he couldn't figure out how to fix the miss and sold it. If he really drove it for a few weeks and then it sat the plugs or wires wouldn't have suddenly gone bad from sitting for a month would they? I have some plugs for my sisters 2000 neon I can try in my car, we didn't get them installed in her car before she got rid of it. Maybe I should go ahead and get a new set of plug wires. Should I just get some after market ones or do you need to get Mopar ones?
I had a little time to mess with it last night. The check engine light does come on with the key so it should be working. I tried to get the codes by doing the key on-off thing but I couldn't get any codes to come up. I must have been doing it wrong because it did nothing at all. The engine does idle fine so the problem seems to just be when it's under load. Hopefully that eliminates the timing belt maybe being installed wrong. From what I could tell all the injectors were clicking but I went ahead and unplugged them one at a time and each one had an effect on how the motor was running so it seems that at idle all the cyliders are getting fuel and spark.
Do these cars have a jack to plug in a code reader? A friend of mine has a reader and would check the codes that way for me since I can't get the key method to work. Although if there were any codes to read shouldn't the check engine light be on all the time?
If he put plugs in but not wires that may be the problem. The "good quality" parts store wires do OK for a couple of years or at least one plug life. The OE last longer. I would stay completly away from the "value price" parts store wires.
Posted By: hellrzr
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/11/11 08:20 PM
I can't tell if it's a particular cylinder or not. Maybe I can have my Dad come down and rev the engine in drive and I can see if I can figure out if it's a particular cylinder.
I think I'm going to get new plug wires next than. I don't think they are too expensive and maybe with some luck that will solve the problem. I probably won't be able to mess with it again until Thursday. Thanks for the continuing help!
Posted By: mopardad
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/11/11 08:53 PM
Quote:
Your Neon is OBDII so the scan tool will work. If you have a current problem that the computer detects it will set the CEL lite. Even if everything is good to go you should get a code 55 (end of codes) and usually a code 12 (battery disconnect within 50 start cycles).
I thought it was 96 when they started using OBDII, if so OBDI would not set a misfire(spark or injector)code would it?
Posted By: DaveRS23
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/12/11 02:48 AM
All Neons (even 95s) were OBDII. The government didn't mandate OBD compliance until the 96 model year, but that didn't mean the manufacturer couldn't initiate it earlier.
Posted By: Two Lane
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/12/11 06:25 AM
I know that new plugs were put in from what you said but, pull the wires from the plugs one at a time and check for oil on the wires or if the plugs are submerged in oil. I just did 2 neons last week with the same problem. The valve cover o- ring seals like the /6 leak often and soak the plugs. Good luck!
Posted By: hellrzr
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *more info* - 01/12/11 03:29 PM
I've been keeping an eye on the oil/plug issue. When I first pulled them there was a light coat of oil on all the plug wires but #2, is was bone dry. The guy told me that after he got it together that #2 was leaking oil and he got another new grommet to fix it. Maybe the other grommets are bad now from sitting for a month??? I wiped the plug wires down and they haven’t been soaked with oil but then it’s not like I’ve had it running for long periods of time while testing, just like 2-5 minutes to test something and then shut the car off. I think I’m going to get home tomorrow night to mess with it. Maybe I need to spray down the tubes with brake cleaner, or carb cleaner, and get in there with a rag best I can to make sure they are free of oil and then let it run for a while to see if any oil shows up. Maybe between some oil in the tubes and marginal plug wires lies the problem.
Posted By: hellrzr
Re: Testing a 1995 neon coil pack? *Update* - 01/17/11 04:59 PM
This weekend I messed with the car some more. It seems to be fixed now! I changed the plugs and it appears to have done the trick. He had Autolites in it and I replaced them with Champions and the car seems to like them much better. The plugs he had in were pretty dark with carbon so I’m a little worried about that. He said he put new plugs in but I’m not sure that he really did. I don’t know how the plugs could have been working fine before it sat for a few weeks and then stopped working so that bothers me. So now I have to get it licensed and insured and start driving it and hope it continues running good. Thanks again to everyone for all the help!