Posted By: roe
how hot is too hot of an operating temp? - 01/02/11 06:15 AM
360 auto, car in my sig, would a steady 195-200 be too high? and will a car overheat without an overflow tank?
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ANYone know if there is some type of "gauge" that will show you the operation of the 'stat?
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Or are you thinking of a sensor that shows how open the thermostat is?
Quote:good explanation
The things you want to watch out for are:
A stady increase in temp when running down the highway. This would indicate that your cooling system is undersized or plugged up - you're not getting enough coolant flow. Or
A steady increase in temp when idleing or crusing slowly. This would indicate that there's not enough air blowing through the radiator.
Quote:the tried/true setup of a MP thermal clutch fan spaced ~2/3 into a shroud does work good and check the dia of your WP pulley and might be able to source a smaller dia one to speed up the fan/pump and pull the pump to tack on an anti cav plate on the vanes to make it more efficient. EDIT (re)read & missed that you're running electric fan(s)
I'm trying to come with some solution to get it to run cooler at idle. as soon as the car moves, even 20-30 mph, the temp drops
Quote:Quote:the tried/true setup of a MP thermal clutch fan spaced ~2/3 into a shroud does work good and check the dia of your WP pulley and might be able to source a smaller dia one to speed up the fan/pump and pull the pump to tack on an anti cav plate on the vanes to make it more efficient. EDIT (re)read & missed that you're running electric fan(s)
I'm trying to come with some solution to get it to run cooler at idle. as soon as the car moves, even 20-30 mph, the temp drops
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FWIW Ford doesn't even turn on the electric fan on cars so equipped till 221 degrees..
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yes, dual spal fans (1300cfm each) but due to total lack of room between WP pulley and the rad core(two row aluminum Fluidyne) the fans are mounted up high on the rad. bottom third of rad isn't getting air pulled through it. I think that's my problem. I don't know if I should create some sort of shroud to cover that part of the rad and leave fans where they are or maybe go with the feets mercedes fan that would cover more of the core (I am a bit short on clearance even for that though so i'd have to get creative)
I was running a flowkooler wp with the plate tacked on and I switched it out for a parts store stock replacement. There was no change in performance.. but enough of a hijack here. As much as I'd love to get my issue resolved, it's this guys thread...If you have any suggestions though, please please PM me. Thanks so much. Kevin.
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I know I don't know as much as many members here, but I just don't like 200 for our cars. I know that new cars run that hot but they are designed to run safely on the edge. EFI, knock sensors, computer spark control to retard timing, etc..
Personally, I don't want mine going over 180 if I can help it. I took my big block charger on a road trip this summer, sat in 3 hours of stop and go traffic to get a total of about 20 miles. It got to 210 in stop and go. No, it didn't puke and overheat, but I still didn't like it. I'm trying to come with some solution to get it to run cooler at idle. as soon as the car moves, even 20-30 mph, the temp drops right to 170 where my temp sensor is set (electric fans running off sensor)
Quote:I couldn't agree more. I'm getting horrible mileage in my 65 dart ('83 318 w eddy 1406/streetmaster/15 initial) & the vacuum break choke pulloff is not operating plus inop heat riser. I have work to do.
I think anything under 180 is not nearly warm enough. An engine thats not fully warmed up is going to cause some problems. As inefficient as internal combustion engines are, they are even less efficient at cold operating temperatures. Youre going to see worse gas mileage since the colder than engine is, the richer the mixture has to be.
Worst of all, cylinder wall wear increases the colder you go, making it important that the engine reaches a hot enough temperature to combat that.In my opinion I wouldn't run anything lower than a 180 tstat.
Quote:what a trick piece! Hell I'd cut a piece of glass from a dishwasher safe glass cup or bowl and epoxy it in for a sight glass & eyeball it directly
you couldn't get much closer to the stat than this.
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I run a seven blade flex fan 17 in dia with stock shroud on a 26 inch
3 core stock brass type radiator .
with a 160 t-stat the eng would run to cool for school , never even got to 180 unless very warm out side . the eng has aprox 600 hp.
had to switch to 195 t stat to correct some air fuel distributon issiues and car still runs 195 on hyway will creep to 210 if sitting in trafic to long but still ok .
I have a friend with a all alumnum 850hp hemi that runs stock seven blade fan with the viscus thermo clutch and keeps cool and says that he has tried every fan out there and none can beat the factory seven blade pulls about 4000 cfm so he says . try to find electric fans that will fit on a 26 in radiator and pull like that ! very dificult !
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also need to either get a new cap for my overflow tank, or pick up a universal one. One of the nipples broke off my original so coolant can go in but can't come back out to the radiator.
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FWIW Ford doesn't even turn on the electric fan on cars so equipped till 221 degrees..
FWIT...that ford must be a newer car...old iron was in the danger zone at 210 plus...I don't understand why anyone would run old iron motors at 230 and wait for 250......195 to 200 nis ok...I prefer to see it around 190 for My Bee and GTX...both 440 motors
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200 degree running temps don't freak him out
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200 is not hot, and GM has had some switches on front drive elec fan cars, not coming on until almost 240. So sit in traffic with your non a/c car on a hot day and enjoy.
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try to find electric fans that will fit on a 26 in radiator and pull like that ! very dificult !
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195 degree ..... 18.00 MPG
175 degree ..... 17.91 MPG
155 degree ..... 17.82 MPG
135 degree ..... 17.74 MPG
For whatever it is worth
the above is what Kevin Gertgen's
'Fuel Economy Calculator' program
http://performancetrends.com/fuel_economy_calculator.htm
predicts for a
stock 1995 2wd 5.9 V8 46RH auto Ram pickup with 3.55 diff,
travelling down a level concrete highway at a steady 70 mph on a windless 42 degree F day
The program does not allow thermostat temps above 195,
but one might speculate that each
20 degrees of coolant temperature increase
might be worth
0.1 MPG
I know that if you idle a 1995 Ram for ten or so minutes
with the factory radiator fan removed,
but with Evans NPG coolant to prevent boil over,
the coolant temperature goes up from
193 to 240,
the idle smoothness noticeably improves,
and the fuel consumption drops from
0.66 gallons per hour to
0.60
When at speed on a highway,
if you raise the coolant temperature by blocking airflow through the radiator,
rather than by thermostat action,
you might get an even better MPG gain,
because air flowing through the front grille and then out the bottom of the vehicle is a major source of aerodynamic drag.
NASCAR teams of course routinely block off as much of the grille as cooling will allow,
and the new GM Cruze has shutters on its radiator opening.
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I posted that to show that the benefit of the higher MPG is small, but if people want to go after it, that is their choice, and many people like a challenge.
I would guess that rubbery parts
.... hoses, seals, vacuum lines
would have their service life shortened
by increased temperatures.
I would guess that aluminum to cast iron junctions,
like cylinder heads, manifolds
would be most likely to warp at higher tempertures.
I would not think that cast iron against cast iron parts would be affected much.
Since bore wall wear goes down with increased coolant temperature
(Continental Motors research)
I would guess that maybe piston ring wear would go down too.
Much of this bore, ring and piston wear
is from acids that are best kept as vapor,
never as a liquid (electrolyte allows corrosion)
so higher temperatures that are above the mixture's boiling temperature reduce corrosion.
Similar to 50/50 anti-freeze and sea water,
these mixtures of acids in water boil at temperatures above 212 F.
Continental Motors now mainly makes aircraft gasoline engines, and I for one was sad to see the press release last month where they were sold to a Chinese company.
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I posted that to show that the benefit of the higher MPG is small, but if people want to go after it, that is their choice, and many people like a challenge.
I would guess that rubbery parts
.... hoses, seals, vacuum lines
would have their service life shortened
by increased temperatures.
I would guess that aluminum to cast iron junctions,
like cylinder heads, manifolds
would be most likely to warp at higher tempertures.
I would not think that cast iron against cast iron parts would be affected much.
Since bore wall wear goes down with increased coolant temperature
(Continental Motors research)
I would guess that maybe piston ring wear would go down too.
Much of this bore, ring and piston wear
is from acids that are best kept as vapor,
never as a liquid (electrolyte allows corrosion)
so higher temperatures that are above the mixture's boiling temperature reduce corrosion.
Similar to 50/50 anti-freeze and sea water,
these mixtures of acids in water boil at temperatures above 212 F.
Continental Motors now mainly makes aircraft gasoline engines, and I for one was sad to see the press release last month where they were sold to a Chinese company.
Not really sure how acids in the coolant effects the bore and rings. If you have coolant and coolant vapor in those locations your problems are a lot bigger. Generally, you're not "boiling off" anything as the system is normally maintained below boiling conditions. Finally, mineral acids have a higher boiling temperature than water, so if you boil an acid solution, the acid concentration in the remaining liquid likely remains the same or goes up. It would be type of acid specific.
Quote:Quote:Quote:
I posted that to show that the benefit of the higher MPG is small, but if people want to go after it, that is their choice, and many people like a challenge.
I would guess that rubbery parts
.... hoses, seals, vacuum lines
would have their service life shortened
by increased temperatures.
I would guess that aluminum to cast iron junctions,
like cylinder heads, manifolds
would be most likely to warp at higher tempertures.
I would not think that cast iron against cast iron parts would be affected much.
Since bore wall wear goes down with increased coolant temperature
(Continental Motors research)
I would guess that maybe piston ring wear would go down too.
Much of this bore, ring and piston wear
is from acids that are best kept as vapor,
never as a liquid (electrolyte allows corrosion)
so higher temperatures that are above the mixture's boiling temperature reduce corrosion.
Similar to 50/50 anti-freeze and sea water,
these mixtures of acids in water boil at temperatures above 212 F.
Continental Motors now mainly makes aircraft gasoline engines, and I for one was sad to see the press release last month where they were sold to a Chinese company.
Not really sure how acids in the coolant effects the bore and rings. If you have coolant and coolant vapor in those locations your problems are a lot bigger. Generally, you're not "boiling off" anything as the system is normally maintained below boiling conditions. Finally, mineral acids have a higher boiling temperature than water, so if you boil an acid solution, the acid concentration in the remaining liquid likely remains the same or goes up. It would be type of acid specific.
I'm assuming what he was talking about are the leftovers of combustion in the cylinders (water, unburned gas, etc...) that can form acids etc... that can cause wear on components and the need for the engine to reach a hot enough operating temperature so that those byproducts evaporate and cant cause any harm. I touched on that earlier in the thread.
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Combustion temp is like 1500 to 1800 degrees. Again, 20 degree difference in the t-stat won't make a measurable difference in these cars especially at the typical hot rodder oil change frequency.
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Typical hot rodder also runs their carbs to fat, and that will cause greater wear than their t-stat choice.
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If "some" of you guys would quit trying ti fix things that aren't broke,you wouldn't have so many problems.When they rolled off the asembly line they worked well with the original components.Now everyone has to have aluminun radiators,electric fans,high flow thermostats, aftermarker water pumps and housings.WHY?
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If "some" of you guys would quit trying to fix things that aren't broke,you wouldn't have so many problems.When they rolled off the assembly line they worked well with the original components.Now everyone has to have aluminun radiators,electric fans,high flow thermostats, aftermarket water pumps and housings.WHY?
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If "some" of you guys would quit trying to fix things that aren't broke,you wouldn't have so many problems.When they rolled off the assembly line they worked well with the original components.Now everyone has to have aluminun radiators,electric fans,high flow thermostats, aftermarket water pumps and housings.WHY?
Uh, they didn't come with bored out blocks, higher CR, etc either. Gas was better and so on. No EFI or electric fuel pump, only a few had return lines and those that did didn't run all the way to the carb. Running one on the hot side causes issues. Do what you want.
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If "some" of you guys would quit trying to fix things that aren't broke,you wouldn't have so many problems.When they rolled off the assembly line they worked well with the original components.Now everyone has to have aluminun radiators,electric fans,high flow thermostats, aftermarket water pumps and housings.WHY?
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If "some" of you guys would quit trying to fix things that aren't broke,you wouldn't have so many problems.When they rolled off the assembly line they worked well with the original components.Now everyone has to have aluminun radiators,electric fans,high flow thermostats, aftermarket water pumps and housings.WHY?
Uh, they didn't come with bored out blocks, higher CR, etc either. Gas was better and so on. No EFI or electric fuel pump, only a few had return lines and those that did didn't run all the way to the carb. Running one on the hot side causes issues. Do what you want.
Well, this one is .030 over,10.6cr,factory 3 core 22" radiator,fixed fan,factory shroud,factory 6 blade A/C water pump,added factory A/C and it doesn't run above 195*.
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If "some" of you guys would quit trying to fix things that aren't broke,you wouldn't have so many problems.When they rolled off the assembly line they worked well with the original components.Now everyone has to have aluminun radiators,electric fans,high flow thermostats, aftermarket water pumps and housings.WHY?
Quote:Quote:
If "some" of you guys would quit trying to fix things that aren't broke,you wouldn't have so many problems.When they rolled off the assembly line they worked well with the original components.Now everyone has to have aluminun radiators,electric fans,high flow thermostats, aftermarket water pumps and housings.WHY?
I bet you still like points ignition to???
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If "some" of you guys would quit trying to fix things that aren't broke,you wouldn't have so many problems.When they rolled off the assembly line they worked well with the original components.Now everyone has to have aluminun radiators,electric fans,high flow thermostats, aftermarket water pumps and housings.WHY?
I bet you still like points ignition to???
why yes i do...whats wrong with points?
ok I am a pertronix kinda guy also so i dont run points very long in them,just till i get a conversion put in
and if its not puking the rad shop guru said it not over heating,may be running warm due to poor circulation but its not over heating...
you woulld be surprized at what a new rad will do for a 30+ yr old car some times
roe,i think your gauge would be about 1/2+ way at that temp on the mech gauge