Moparts
Can I add spacers between frame and K member?
Posted By: bb74swngr
Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 02:40 AM
I need about 1/4" more space between my air cleaner and the underside of the hood. If I add a 1/4" spacer between the frame and K member will it mess up the steering geometry? Is there anything I'm not considering that would make this a dumb move? Will it put too much stress on the transmission mount or the torsion bars? I know it will need to be aligned. Maybe need to adjust fan shroud? Does the steering sector have enough play?
Please be gentle...
Thanks in advance all:)
Posted By: DaveRS23
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 02:48 AM
If all you need is 1/4", then you should be able to do it with no ill effects. Try it. Put the 1/4" spacers in with no other changes and see how you like it. If there are issues that you don't care for, just remove them.
You can put spacers above the K with just a floor jack and jack stands in less than an hour. Just don't let the K go down any more than necessary to get the spacers in. Do one side a time.
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 02:55 AM
Good point Dave...I could just give it a try and take them out if something goes awry.
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 04:55 AM
Uhhhhh....
This sorta sounds like buying a hat that doesnt fit then going to get your head shrunk.
I'm all for cutting, fabricating and modifying things, but this is what locates the engine, steering and over half of the load of the transmission. I'd half to defer to the adage: What would the factory do: Ma Mopar would have tooled up for a different air cleaner base.
I did this very thing, and it worked out nicely. My Charger has a 493 with an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake. I liked the MP cast aluminum air cleaner, so I ordered one from Summit. It sat 3/4" to tall to clear my hood. I took my MP unit to a guy that is good with a TIG welder, along with a dropped base from another air cleaner assembly, and had him meld the two. It cost me $85, but it fits, looks right and all is right with the world.
Posted By: ns1aar
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 06:37 AM
Didn't the 68 hemi a-bodies do this?
Posted By: GLR
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 07:18 AM
This has been a problem for guys running shakers on E-bodys also. Remember; if you lower the engine, you "may" also have to lower the transmmission mount, you "May" have to lower the radiator so the fan doesn't hit the shrowd?...So I wouldn't use a spacer either, I would cut your air cleaner base. But that is my opinion...
Posted By: bonefish
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 03:55 PM
dont forget its also going to change your pinion angle
Posted By: RodStRace
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 04:13 PM
The Hemi darts had em. However, I'd wonder if that 1/4 inch of static clearance is going to be enough when you bang that first shift.
I agree that it seems like the wrong end to shave some clearance in.
In order, redesign the filter, trim the top of the intake, add the spacers, then fab new motor mounts for additional clearance.
Posted By: BradD
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 05:26 PM
Cut the intake top.
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 05:28 PM
Depending on air cleaner style, get a shorter filter as in the case of the unsilenced air cleaner.
Posted By: BradH
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 05:30 PM
Any implications for the torsion bars by spacing the k-member down?
Posted By: magnum440
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 06:00 PM
we put spacers on 71 hemi clone because of comversion motor mounts for shaker scoop to fit properly.....front end went together with no problems..when i aligned it came right into specs ...
Posted By: Pyper70
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 06:59 PM
I took in as many options as I could when I was swapping from a 4 bbl to a Dual Quad. I needed a 1/4" as well for clearance. I went ahead and got an aftermarket replica of a Dual Quad base from Steve (Paint It Black) and modified it to fit under my hood...69 Charger..no scoop and I have the sound deadener on the underside as well. I milled down two aluminum sleeves and set them under the drop base on top of both carbs, bought a K&N Oval Air Filter because it was slightly shorter than the FRAM type. It fits.
I dunno about messing with geometry, angles, and loads just for 1/4" I think you would run into some issue with your torsion bars, they are already under a great deal of shear tension. Then your steering linkage might bind somewhere.
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 08:18 PM
Wow, thanks everyone. This has been a good learning experience with all of your input. I have modified the air cleaner as much as possible...there is no more room to cheat under the hood without milling parts. The 440 is setting as low as it can in the K member with Schumacher mounts. I have the Eddy dual quad CH-28 and everything fit fine until I added the NOS plates. I am using it the way it is right now but I can see rub marks on the bottom of the scoopless fiberglass hood. I am taking everyone's input seriously, so thanks again.
Russ:)
Posted By: Pyper70
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 09:52 PM
Hows that CH28 working for ya?
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 10:52 PM
Love the CH-28, how about you? It has been great in every way. Folks at the car shows love it. It would be quicker with a single four but the wow factor is so much more fun.
Russ:)
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 10:58 PM
Pyper70 your setup looks awesome. Mine is not so fancy...kinda low keyed. Try to keep it ordinary looking...
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 10:59 PM
One more...
Posted By: BDW
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 11:33 PM
Quote:
Wow, thanks everyone. This has been a good learning experience with all of your input. I have modified the air cleaner as much as possible...there is no more room to cheat under the hood without milling parts. The 440 is setting as low as it can in the K member with Schumacher mounts. I have the Eddy dual quad CH-28 and everything fit fine until I added the NOS plates. I am using it the way it is right now but I can see rub marks on the bottom of the scoopless fiberglass hood. I am taking everyone's input seriously, so thanks again.
Russ:)
What about a lower profile air filter and modifying the top of the air cleaner. Looks like it could come down some?
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 11:45 PM
Hi cnxt. I sure tried hard to find a slimmer air cleaner. This is the shortest Mopar piece and shortest filter I could find. Believe me I physically went through a ton of filters. I cut the bottom out of this one and lowered it to the top of the carbs with just enough room for the accelerator pumps to function properly. The throttle linkage just barely clears the base. I have been racking my brain for some way to get another 1/4". The car looks completely stock on the outside and it kills me to cut anything.
Posted By: Pyper70
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 11:50 PM
bb74...Are you sure you are sucking in enough air through a single snorkel? Maybe a dual snorkel would get you some better flow?
Photobucket wont load up so here is the before shot before I cut it up to fit in my engine bay...Luckily no major slicing...just relocating the carb holes on the base. I guess if my 1/2" phenolic spacers fit then your 1/4" NOS should fit...My heights are pretty good as far as the hood is concerned
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/21/10 11:58 PM
Pyper, that setup looks sooooo good! The single snorkel is just for looks, the whole back of the air cleaner is open with a heavy screen. I hope it is enough and hasn't seemed to be starving for air. You can see it on the pic with the lid off. You are building a big cube engine?
Posted By: Stanton
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 12:12 AM
I don't think I'd worry too much about steering geometry but more about what the torsion bars are going to do. Since the rears fit solid in the frame and these line up at the front with the LCA's, lowering the K is going to want to either bend the t-bars or twist them in the LCA bushings. Neither will be good.
Put a 7" scoop on it - that'll solve your problem
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 12:22 AM
Stanton, that is a really big concern for me. I had the same thought about the torsion bars. There is a big contact area where they go into the crossmember and no wriggle room. Good question. Yes, a 7" scoop would work...does anyone make a 1/4" scoop? Just kidding:)
Posted By: moparts
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 12:26 AM
I say yes on dropping the front K member 1/4 inch
I have done it with NO problems,
All of the steering drops, so nothing there to get messed up
The column still lines up, T Bars no problem
The only thing that it does change is the ball joint angles a little.
Would be a great place to use the tall disc spindles then
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 12:36 AM
Thank you Tom, that gives me some hope!
Posted By: Pyper70
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 12:44 AM
Quote:
Pyper, that setup looks sooooo good! The single snorkel is just for looks, the whole back of the air cleaner is open with a heavy screen. I hope it is enough and hasn't seemed to be starving for air. You can see it on the pic with the lid off. You are building a big cube engine?
For now its on a 440 with a mild cam..3.55 and a Gear vendors...eventually building my 505 Stroker...Got all the parts...its just not time...I only have 15k miles on this 440.
I see the mesh screen on the rear now...yeah...well...do the 1/4" drop...if something doesn't feel or sound right...take it back the way it was...they are just spacers..as long as you arent welding them in place
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 12:49 AM
Thanks for the input Pyper...505 will be a handful of fun! Good luck on the build. I have decided to give it a try, like has been suggested you and others...I can always pull the spacers out.
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 01:00 AM
I promise to do another thread/post after I have installed the spacers and tried it out for a while. I will report on the good, bad, or even ugly experience. It is in storage for the winter...live in the midwest. Over the winter I will be changing from a 6AL to a 6AL Plus, 3:23 to 3:91, Sirius radio, and K member SPACERS!
Posted By: PC-CHARGER
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 01:02 AM
If you are after a stock look, then this isn't much help, but if not, who says the air filter has to be directly on top of the carb. Here's what I did to get around the clearance problem. Still in the mockup stages in these pics but you get the idea.
Posted By: PC-CHARGER
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 01:03 AM
#2
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 01:14 AM
Quote:
If you are after a stock look, then this isn't much help, but if not, who says the air filter has to be directly on top of the carb. Here's what I did to get around the clearance problem. Still in the mockup stages in these pics but you get the idea.
Rick, that looks really clean. It should have plenty of air. Did you make this setup or is it an aftermarket assembly?
Posted By: PC-CHARGER
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 01:18 AM
It started life as a piece from Spectre but it's been heavily modified by myself and friends. Here's a shot of the original piece.
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 01:21 AM
Quote:
It started life as a piece from Spectre but it's been heavily modified by myself and friends. Here's a shot of the original piece.
All I can say is that you are an amazing fabricator, very professional!
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 01:24 AM
Quote:
I say yes on dropping the front K member 1/4 inch
I have done it with NO problems,
All of the steering drops, so nothing there to get messed up
The column still lines up, T Bars no problem
The only thing that it does change is the ball joint angles a little.
Would be a great place to use the tall disc spindles then
And the tall spindles are 5/8" taller... I've seen 3/4" on quite a few cars... No problems.... Those torsion bars have quite a bit of movement in the anchors & even if they didn't last I heard they are spring steel.... Springs are designed to flex....
Posted By: PC-CHARGER
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 01:27 AM
Thanks. I have a friend who works designing parts and another friend who is a good aluminum welder so between the three of us, we got it done. Just a thought to show that the air filter need not be directly over the carb (or throttle body in my case).
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 01:35 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I say yes on dropping the front K member 1/4 inch
I have done it with NO problems,
All of the steering drops, so nothing there to get messed up
The column still lines up, T Bars no problem
The only thing that it does change is the ball joint angles a little.
Would be a great place to use the tall disc spindles then
And the tall spindles are 5/8" taller... I've seen 3/4" on quite a few cars... No problems.... Those torsion bars have quite a bit of movement in the anchors & even if they didn't last I heard they are spring steel.... Springs are designed to flex....
Hey Randy, are the taller spindles an OEM piece?
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 01:45 AM
They are the factory F/J/M body spindles... (Aspens/Miradas/StRegis Etc)
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 01:55 AM
Quote:
They are the factory F/J/M body spindles... (Aspens/Miradas/StRegis Etc)
Try 3/8" taller, not 5/8"
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 02:02 AM
Quote:
They are the factory F/J/M body spindles... (Aspens/Miradas/StRegis Etc)
Thanks Randy and Steve! I will start looking:) Everything is original (25K miles) on this car and it's time for me to go through the front end anyway.
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 02:03 AM
Quote:
Can I add spacers between frame and K member?
The 1/4" or so deal has been done in Oz since the early 70's on the road racing Valiant Chargers...helped with some alignment stuff (not for engine clearance) and with no ill issues at all as said.
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 02:06 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Can I add spacers between frame and K member?
The 1/4" or so deal has been done in Oz since the early 70's on the road racing Valiant Chargers...helped with some alignment stuff (not for engine clearance) and with no ill issues at all as said.
Thank you Jeff:) That is so good to hear!!!!!
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 02:15 AM
No problem
It also gets done when some guys convert to rack and pinion and need to space the engine up a little bit..they then space the K frame back down, so the engine and trans sit in the same spot as before basically..
(I did a rack on mine, but didn't need to do that..)
Posted By: Stanton
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 03:46 AM
I wouldn't be bustin' my butt to swap those spindles until I drove it a bit first.
Make sure your spacers are the full width of the K-member "ears" and the width of the frame rails so there is a good contact patch - don't just use washers.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 12:04 PM
Quote:
... everything fit fine until I added the NOS plates. ...
Just loose that nitrous-nonsense and be done with it... With such a cool stock looking appearance I doubt you have the tire for it anyway. It's not some chevy who needs these kinda drugs is it? 
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 04:04 PM
Quote:
I wouldn't be bustin' my butt to swap those spindles until I drove it a bit first.
Make sure your spacers are the full width of the K-member "ears" and the width of the frame rails so there is a good contact patch - don't just use washers.
Thanks Stanton, I wasn't going to use washers but I didn't think about using the complete surfaces. I will do as you suggest and make sure it has full contact...thanks!
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 04:11 PM
Quote:
Quote:
... everything fit fine until I added the NOS plates. ...
Just loose that nitrous-nonsense and be done with it... With such a cool stock looking appearance I doubt you have the tire for it anyway. It's not some chevy who needs these kinda drugs is it?
Hey Herman, you are the first one to out me:) It's probably the dumbest thing I have done on the car but they told me it couldn't be done. I had a NOS system on the shelf and I'm really not the brightest bulb on the tree...so I ended up with this problem. Yes, your right about the tires...really can't use the NOS effectively. I'm old and lived through the 60's so my thinking may not be rational:):):)
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 04:14 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
... everything fit fine until I added the NOS plates. ...
Just loose that nitrous-nonsense and be done with it... With such a cool stock looking appearance I doubt you have the tire for it anyway. It's not some chevy who needs these kinda drugs is it?
Hey Herman, you are the first one to out me:) It's probably the dumbest thing I have done on the car but they told me it couldn't be done. I had a NOS system on the shelf and I'm really not the brightest bulb on the tree...so I ended up with this problem. Yes, your right about the tires...really can't use the NOS effectively. I'm old and lived through the 60's so my thinking may not be rational:):):)
Who needs rational thinking??? I believe the current term is PAH!!!!
Posted By: bp27
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 07:55 PM
I modified a Hemi air cleaner to fit my car the filter is shorter
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 11:56 PM
Posted By: bb74swngr
Re: Can I add spacers between frame and K member? - 12/22/10 11:58 PM
Quote:
I modified a Hemi air cleaner to fit my car the filter is shorter
Robert that looks soooo good. Did it require a lot of modification? Someone on here will probably want to know how you did that...