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bet you never had this problem
Posted By: kingkt
bet you never had this problem - 11/23/10 08:24 PM
check this out... im finishing a resto on a 73 cuda im now working out the bugs. this bug has got me super stumped. heres the issue. its a 23 spline trans. it shifts fine when turned off. but when started it wont shift. so i pulled the universal and when started it shifts fine with out the universal in. the yoke fits nice and slides nice into place. im wondering if the yoke is too far in it might be jamming something. but i dont beleive thats the problem since i tried lifting the car and on the ground while trying to get it to work properly. any help is highly appreciated
Posted By: buildanother
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/23/10 08:27 PM
The clutch may not be disengaging completely, or you are not giving trans internals enough time to stop once pushing pedal down.
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/23/10 08:41 PM
yeah my next step i figure is to pull the trans and see whats going on with the clutch because i just tried to start the car with the clutch depressed and the trans in 1st. it started fine but whether the clutch is in or out it seems the wheels want to turn. but the wheels turn kinda funky like something is fighting them from spinning freely. well im heading back in the shop to pull it and ill see whats going on and get back with you on it. thank you
Posted By: feets
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/23/10 09:03 PM
You have the clutch disc in backwards.
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 12:35 AM
i just pulled the trans. clutch disc was installed correctly i pulled the plate and disc and the disc slides nicely on the spline. the throw out slides nicely on the shaft. i cant figure this out! i did have a prolemn when pulling the trans where it would not want to pull out of the pilot bearing. i actually had to put 2 tie straps on either side of bellhouse and the rear frame and crank them down to get the trans to slide out. even with both straps cranked tight it still did not want to pull out. with tension on both straps i put a crow bar in the space between the block and bellhouse and she popped out. i know it had to be hung up in the pilot because i removed all the bolts to the pressure plate and it still would not pull out. im thinking it was suction in the crank because it was filled with grease. i stuck my finger in the hole and i could feel suction when i pulled it out. but it had to be a bunch of suck there to hold it like it did. also the disc could not have been backwards because it sat nicely on the flywheel when installed and if i flip it it hits the flywheel bolts and sticks out a half inch. the only thing i can think of is the pressure plate which is new. maybe it dont release pressure off the disc when pedal is down. any suggestions is appreciated. ill try anything right now. my next move is to take the trans to the guy who rebuilt it. thank you for any help you can offer.
Posted By: Boise Chall
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 12:41 AM
Did you put a new pilot bearing/bushing in it. When the clutch pedal is out and tires are spinning can you hit the brakes to stop the wheels without the motor stalling. If you replaced the pilot bearing/bushing it might just be tight and needs to burn in. If you didn't replace the pilot bearing/ bushing maybe you need to.
Posted By: In_The_Pink
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 12:51 AM
It seems the problem lies with the throwout bearing and input bearing retainer. You should not have to pry things apart...unless you dropped the tail end of the trans while removing it and bent something.
If the trans shifts fine when th eengine is not running, I wouldn't worry about the trans internals.
Did you adjust the clutch disc airgap to spec when you installed it?
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 12:52 AM
yes. i replaced the pilot bearing. i tested on the shaft before installing and it fit great. my problem is that the tires stuggle to turn when the pedal is out. they turn intermitently even if i rev the engine its as if somethings not right. even with the pedal down the tires turn the same way. i did feel te end of the shaft and it seems like it may be slightly fatter at the end just efore it starts to cone down. and keep in mind it wont shift into gear when the engine is started. but shifts great when not running. and it shifts great when the universal is removed when running. i know....it dont make sense. but thats what its doing
Posted By: feets
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 12:54 AM
Yep. That's way too much pressure on the input shaft. How did you put it in there? Did you stab it as far as it would go then crank on the bellhousing bolts to pull the transmission in?
That tight of a bushing will spin the input shaft when the clutch should let it spin. You might as well have never hit the clutch.
Fix that and the problem should go away.
I'd hate to see what kind of thrust load you were putting on that input shaft bearing. It probably had everything stacked up tight in there.
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 12:56 AM
well you may be onto something because i have no idea what the disc airgap is? i always thought you use the clutch alignment tool and bolt the plate in
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 01:01 AM
i did stab it and it was about half to 3/4 inch from the block. you think when the pilot went in tight it changed the i.d. of the pilot? if so how would you remedy the issue?
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 01:11 AM
Cut about 1/8 inch off the transmission input shaft where it goes into the pilot. It is bottoming out in the crankshaft and binding up.
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 01:16 AM
you think i could use some emery cloth on the input shaft to get it to slide in easier?
Posted By: A70Runner
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 01:31 AM
Are the bushings in the z-bar new? Did you adjust the pedal free play?
Posted By: Keith Black®
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 01:33 AM
Quote:
Yep. That's way too much pressure on the input shaft. How did you put it in there? Did you stab it as far as it would go then crank on the bellhousing bolts to pull the transmission in?
That tight of a bushing will spin the input shaft when the clutch should let it spin. You might as well have never hit the clutch.
Fix that and the problem should go away.
I'd hate to see what kind of thrust load you were putting on that input shaft bearing. It probably had everything stacked up tight in there.
measure and measure again. check all your clearances . sounds like the input shaft is stuck to the pilot bearing making the clutch ineffective. check the clutch plates are sliding freely on the input shaft. measure the ID of the pilot/ the OD of the input shaft where it goes in, check the length and depth into the crankshaft rear etc.
good luck 
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 01:48 AM
yes z bar and bushings are new as well as the fork pivot pilot throw out disc plate aduster and rod are all new as well and i did adjust the pedal play with the aduster at the fork
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 01:52 AM
sounding more like the shaft is binding in the pilot. ill try using some emery cloth tomorrow to grind the fat part of the shaft down. ill also do some measuring to see if the shaft is bottoming out in the crank.
Posted By: Keith Black®
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 01:59 AM
bolt the trans in without the clutch/flywheel, trans in neutral.
see if you can turn the input shaft by hand (if your bellhousing allows you too)
Posted By: Yancy Derringer
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 02:05 AM
Some general purpose ramblings from the nearly senile.
First, carefully measure the depth of the pilot from the bell face, as well as the length of the input shaft back to the bell face of the transmission.
Next, pull the clutch cover and disc OUT and install ONLY the transmission with no clutch.
Now you can put the box in HIGH gear, and with a yoke in the tail, you tell if the pilot is binding in the bushing.
If/ when you get this to check out, are you able to see into the bottom of the bell, I.E. do you have a stock bell or scattershield?
If you can see into the bell, take a friend to push the pedal all the way down, and measure iwth a feeler to see how much release clearance you have.
If you cannot see what's happening for sure, find yourself a "real" clutch rebuilder---they ARE around---and have them check the clutch. They'll need your cover and disc, and maybe your flywheel.
It DOES happen that covers don't release because of some problem
As others have mentioned, check your clutch linkage from top to bottom. Have a friend push the clutch in/ out SLOWLY and repeatedly while you look at such areas as the welds on the Z bar linkage, etc, or for other flexing. Even the clutch fork can sometimes crack and flex
Posted By: moparmojo
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 05:05 AM
I was thinking the same thing. Sounds like something is pushing the crank against the thrust bearing and making it hard to start. The OP may just want to check that bearing to see if there is any evidence of damage.
Posted By: sthemi
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 08:04 AM
The pilot bearing on my car shrunk up a lot after the install.
I had to spend tall $$$ on the correct size reamer to resize it.
Posted By: jbc426
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 11:49 AM
Quote:
Cut about 1/8 inch off the transmission input shaft where it goes into the pilot. It is bottoming out in the crankshaft and binding up.
Bingo! I'll take the bet that this is what it is. Mine did the same thing. You can easily test if this is it by loosening the 4 trans to bellhousing bolts and try shifting it when it's running then. I had to grind off about 1/2 of an inch from the input shaft to get clearance. My crank just wasn't drilled deep enough, or the scatter shield was shorter from block to trans.
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Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 02:53 PM
The only question not ask so far that I see,is the bell housing opening concentric with the crank shaft ? If not they make offset dowel's to correct the problem.
Posted By: pressureangle
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 02:57 PM
Sounds like your clutch is dragging. Check for full disengagement, oil/grease contamination, or warpage.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 03:00 PM
Quote:
The only question not ask so far that I see,is the bell housing opening concentric with the crank shaft ? If not they make offset dowel's to correct the problem.
Also what pilot bushing are you using ?
What is the engine?
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 03:52 PM
i had a new pilot in the shop so i checked it on the shaft before installing it and it fit great. its a 383
Posted By: feets
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 04:06 PM
If your'e using the stock style bushing it could be compressing when you press it into the crank. That would make for a really tight fit.
You couldn't get the transmission out of the car. That tells me the pilot pushing had a death grip on the shaft.
Forget all the other stuff for now. Measure the pilot bushing and the input shaft diameters. You will likely find the problem there.
Once you have that straightened out, fit the transmission without the clutch disc. See if the transmission is still too tight.
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 04:11 PM
i agree but ive been thinking how do i make it fit properly?? do i drill out the pilot slightly. or do i use some emery cloth on the shaft?
Posted By: feets
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 04:14 PM
You need to take the emory cloth to the bushing. It's MUCH softer than that hardened steel shaft.
Posted By: rustbuckett68
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 05:36 PM
Was it an original manual trans car, engine, and crank? I seem to remeber that some AT cranks were not reamed to the correct pilot bushing size. IIRC the bushing should be a snug fit, no hammering.
Posted By: jbc426
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 06:08 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Cut about 1/8 inch off the transmission input shaft where it goes into the pilot. It is bottoming out in the crankshaft and binding up.
Bingo! I'll take the bet that this is what it is. Mine did the same thing. You can easily test if this is it by loosening the 4 trans to bellhousing bolts and try shifting it when it's running then. I had to grind off about 1/2 of an inch from the input shaft to get clearance. My crank just wasn't drilled deep enough, or the scatter shield was shorter from block to trans.
It's a quick & simple test. Loosen the four transmission bolts so there's about 1/3 of an inch gap between the trans and the bell housing, start it and and try shifting it into gear. I'll bet you it goes right into gear.
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 09:08 PM
it is an original 4 speed cuda. it was a 340 4 speed and now 383 4 speed the crank had a original pilot in the crank and the new pilot went it ok i did need to press it in. i put the pilot in the freezer overnite before installing.. ive been working on it all day now and found that the new pilot shrunk the i.d. went it went in. also after measuring and remeasuring it seemed the shaft was bottoming out in the crank and there was some evidence of that on the end of the shaft where it was flat and the metal curved up very slightly. i took a new pilot bushing and slid it on the shaft and it fit loosely. then found a dowel that fit that pilot the same way as the shaft then tried to fit the dowel into the pilot installed in the crank and it was super tight. i then cut the shaft to acccomadate the crank. i ground the shaft where it was fatter at the end where it was past the bushing when installed. i used emery cloth on the shaft and bushing. now the dowel fits the installed bushing nicely. im having lunch and ill be stabbing the trans this afternoon. ill let all you helpful guys know what happens when i gitterdone . i thank all of you for your input!
Posted By: Yancy Derringer
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 10:54 PM
Sounds like you are on the right track, but know this: A new, uninstalled pilot is OVERSIZE ID. It is shrunk some amount when installed, so you cannot use a loose, uninstalled pilot for size comparison
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/24/10 11:51 PM
thats right.. i used the clutch alignment tool and saw that was tight in the installed pilot. then found a dowel that fit the same way on the tool. then used the dowel on the shaft for comparison. and then started using the emery cloth until the dowl and the shaft moved nicely. i just finished installing the bellhouse. and i have the tranny suspended and ready to stab.ill stab it in the next hour or 2 and let everyone know how i make out.its one of those thing that i know i better not rush.
Posted By: 440fied
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/25/10 06:15 AM
I have used the later style roller pilot bearings instead of the bronze bushings when installing the a-833. The roller bearings always fit the crank hub. If the crank hasn't been drilled you can use the roller bearing as a guide and drill the back of the crank, that way you don't have to hack off the end of the input shaft on the transmission.
http://www.brewersperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=PRB5300 
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/26/10 02:25 AM
hey thats a great idea! looking at it i did not get it at first but it fits in the crank in front of the hole where the pilot bushing would go right?? so basically i would just remove the bushing in there now. i never got around to stabbing it yet being turkey day ill be back at it tomorrow unless i decide to go the bearing route
Posted By: 440fied
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/26/10 06:39 AM
Yep, it fits in the crank in front of the hole where the bronze pilot bushing goes. Just take out the bronze bushing and install the roller bearing flush with the end of the crank. No more worries about the input shaft seizing inside the bronze bushing.
Posted By: BSB67
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/26/10 02:25 PM
Quote:
Yep, it fits in the crank in front of the hole where the bronze pilot bushing goes. Just take out the bronze bushing and install the roller bearing flush with the end of the crank. No more worries about the input shaft seizing inside the bronze bushing.
I've seen the roller pilot bearing come apart, but never a bronze bushing.
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/26/10 03:51 PM
now that throws a monkey wrench in my thoughts
Posted By: dcr
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/26/10 05:15 PM
Is this a scattershield you are useing or a stock bell housing?If its a scattershield did you check for proper runout?
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/26/10 05:27 PM
Are you aware that there are different pilot bushings depending on whether the crank was an original stick crank or not? NAPA sells the proper one for an unfinished crank. Trying to put a standard one in an unfinished crank will crush it. Go ahead, ask me how I know that.
The roller bearing is from a Dakota truck if you want to try that route. It fits in the register for the torque converter, so it doesn't matter if the crank is finished or not.
IF the crank is unfinished you will have to trim the end of the pilot off. That's a lot easier than trying to drill the crank with the motor in the car.
Posted By: BradD
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/26/10 05:51 PM
Quote:
Cut about 1/8 inch off the transmission input shaft where it goes into the pilot. It is bottoming out in the crankshaft and binding up.
We had to do this on a hemi road runner. The crank was not drilled deep enough. The clutch was growling when in gear. We thought it was a junk throwout bearing so we replaced it with a different brand and had the same growl. After measuring we found the new crank was not drilled deep enough so it had to much pressure on the input shaft bearing.
Brad
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/26/10 09:30 PM
stock bb bell
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/26/10 09:33 PM
thats the same noise i was getting. a growling
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/26/10 09:36 PM
the crank is from a original 4 speed car and i removed the old worn one and installed a new one that fit good and tight
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 11/26/10 10:26 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Cut about 1/8 inch off the transmission input shaft where it goes into the pilot. It is bottoming out in the crankshaft and binding up.
We had to do this on a hemi road runner. The crank was not drilled deep enough. The clutch was growling when in gear. We thought it was a junk throwout bearing so we replaced it with a different brand and had the same growl. After measuring we found the new crank was not drilled deep enough so it had to much pressure on the input shaft bearing.
Brad
did it harm the input bearing?
Posted By: kingkt
Re: bet you never had this problem - 12/01/10 04:12 AM
well shes all back together and working great! but not without a ton of what the f--ks. i took a members advise and fit the trans without the plate disc and wheel and it fit perfect. now get this... when it was out i fit the disc on the splines and it fit great. i installed the clutch and when i installed the trans it would not go in. after a couple days not sleeping and thinking what the fffff. it just made no sense. then i looked at the clutch alignment tool.... it said "made in china". as we know the disc needs to be perfect for everything to slip in perfect. so what i did was loosen the plate bolts so the disc was free and with the trans in place and after the bolts were loose she slide right in. you guys helped alot and one thing i can say to help you all is....stay away from the chinese crap