Moparts
440 sounds clattery
Posted By: HitIt
440 sounds clattery - 04/25/10 07:28 PM
Hello all got a question.
I bought a rebuilt 440 and recently installed and got it running. it is a bit of a mystery motor but I do know it has 10.5:1 compression and a 488 lift Elgin cam. All internals looked good with assembly lube etc.
It's got about 100 miles on it. When it idles it has a definite clatter to it almost like a diesel motor. Oil pressure is 50 lbs hot at idle and it runs at 180 degrees or less. Runs good overall.
The rockers are non adjustible stock type. Could the pushrods be too short? The rockers have some considerable side to side movement when the vavle is unloaded. Timing is 10 degrees Btdc. What else could cause this type of noise?
Thanks, let me know if any other info would be helpful.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/25/10 07:32 PM
check a pair of lifters for how much preload they have
Posted By: Commando1
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/25/10 09:01 PM
First, you pull the valve covers, one side at a time. Start'er up. See anything unusual? Take some heater hose with one end to your ear and the other end running along the valve train. Hear anything different in any particular cylinder(s)?
That will tell you if it's "upstairs" or "downstairs". Get back to us.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/25/10 09:08 PM
does it quiet down as RPMs go up??
Posted By: HitIt
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/25/10 09:43 PM
So basically if the preload on the lifter is not right what can I do with the stock rockers? Does that mean there is an incorrect pushrod length?
I can tell you that when the valves are unloaded the rocker and pushrod are quite loose with definite play in them. I thought the litters needed to pump up after the rebuild but that seems not to be the case. Everything in the head is getting plenty of oil.
And yes the noise is really only at idle. Thank you all for the help.
Posted By: Sinitro
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/25/10 10:51 PM
Quote:
So basically if the preload on the lifter is not right what can I do with the stock rockers? Does that mean there is an incorrect pushrod length?
I can tell you that when the valves are unloaded the rocker and pushrod are quite loose with definite play in them. I thought the litters needed to pump up after the rebuild but that seems not to be the case. Everything in the head is getting plenty of oil.
And yes the noise is really only at idle. Thank you all for the help.
You answered your own question..
Not enough preload, IMHO.
Assuming the lifters are OK, you should upgrade to adjustable rockers but be careful of the Shanghai specials.. 
Just my $0.01.. 
Posted By: HitIt
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/25/10 11:17 PM
Thanks for the opinion. So what's the consensus on a good setup that's not overly expensive? This is a street car.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/25/10 11:24 PM
Quote:
So basically if the preload on the lifter is not right what can I do with the stock rockers? D
And yes the noise is really only at idle. Thank you all for the help.
If it's only noisy at Idle I would suspect it may have roads style lifters that pump down for idle quality. if you hold it at 2500 and clattering disappears that's what i would suspect.
Posted By: Dakota542
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/25/10 11:43 PM
What are the length of your pushrods? Maybe they are the wrong pushrods for a 440.
Does the rocker shaft have shims under it?
I'd be more interested in what the problem is, and then work on the best/cheapest way to correct it.
The ball-ball pushrods are available in almost any length you require.
Don't buy cheap roller rockers for a daily driver. Old school factory type adjustables - Cast Iron Ductile Mechanical Rocker Arm Package from Mopar Performance(P4120974) have been proven reliable for many years. The factory type adjustables use a cup-ball type pushrod, so you can add that to the price.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/25/10 11:49 PM
Quote:
What are the length of your pushrods? Maybe they are the wrong pushrods for a 440.
Exactly what I was thinking. I'd mockup an adjustable one to check & go from there. Not sure on the best procedure but might checkout www.hughesengines.com procedure
Posted By: HitIt
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 01:09 AM
Not sure on the length of the pushrods but I will check tomorrow.
The Rhodes lifter idea seems possible, but will they make noise when warmed up? Mine still makes the noise when warm.
What's the right range for a RB pushrod? Looking for an adjustible one but there are a few length options.
Thanks Again for the help.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 01:13 AM
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 06:40 AM
This may be overstating the obvious, but what about this: Check the orientation of the rocker arms? One time as a novice engine builder I accidently put mine together wrong. They are marked, but I had them flipped Intake for exhaust. This caused a rattle localized to that side of the engine. I returned to their proper order and the rattle went away.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 01:15 PM
Quote:
This may be overstating the obvious, but what about this: Check the orientation of the rocker arms? One time as a novice engine builder I accidently put mine together wrong. They are marked, but I had them flipped Intake for exhaust. This caused a rattle localized to that side of the engine. I returned to their proper order and the rattle went away.
that is something to check too they should be offset to the middle of each pair
Posted By: Commando1
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 01:39 PM
Everyone's coming up with a "fix" before it's been properly determined where the problem is.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 03:17 PM
just some things to look for would not be the first to slide the stamped rockers on the shaft wrong.
I think it has some kind of Rhoads type lifters (fast bleed lifter) if it quiets down as rpms come up.
Posted By: Mopar_Country
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 03:36 PM
I would have to wonder what pins are in the connecting rods. If they are floating pins, that can create the diesel effect when first started and at idle. Does the noise go away when you accelerate?
Posted By: HitIt
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 04:59 PM
Thanks for the help and ideas, the obvious ones are definitely of value too. This is my first mopar big block so I still am learning.
I have contacted the builder to see if he can give me any more information on the valvetrain setup. I’ll let you all know what comes out of that.
The thing I see at this point is excessive slop in the pushrods and rocker arms. I’ve done some research here, seems like they should have a bit of preload on them when unloaded, right?
I don’t see any shims or spacers under the rocker shaft mounts. I imagine the pushrods are just not the correct match for the lifters and stock rockers.
That video with the Rhodes lifter sounds pretty much like my engine at idle but I kinda don’t think that’s the issue.
Thanks again. Keep the ideas coming.
Posted By: HitIt
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 05:02 PM
Quote:
This may be overstating the obvious, but what about this: Check the orientation of the rocker arms? One time as a novice engine builder I accidently put mine together wrong. They are marked, but I had them flipped Intake for exhaust. This caused a rattle localized to that side of the engine. I returned to their proper order and the rattle went away.
I'll take a look at that today, thanks for the idea. I *think* I looked at that and they seemed right but I wasn't specifically looking for that. Could be a couple are out of order like you say.
Appreciate the help very much.
Posted By: HitIt
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 05:10 PM
Also one other question - I am sure one of you would have suggested it if it were possible, but could this excessive slop in the valve train be a symptom of the cam going flat from a bad break-in?
I am sure I broke it in properly, but you just never know.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 05:10 PM
I’ve done some research here, seems like they should have a bit of preload on them when unloaded, right?
I don’t see any shims or spacers under the rocker shaft mounts. I imagine the pushrods are just not the correct match for the lifters and stock rockers.
That video with the Rhodes lifter sounds pretty much like my engine at idle but I kinda don’t think that’s the issue.
Thanks again. Keep the ideas coming.
But rhoads or other fast bleed lifters do just that bleed the pre load off right away. If you rev it up and ticking goes away that's the way they work. If it continues and even gets louder look to pre load problem.
Posted By: HitIt
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 06:25 PM
Here is a video of the engine idling if anyone is interested in having a listen. It's not quite as apparent in the video as in person.
At the suggestion of the builder, I am going to order a set of .60 longer pushrods to see if that does the trick, also getting an adjustible pushrod tool if the longer rods don't do the trick.
440 Idle Thankas again all!!
Posted By: HitIt
Re: 440 sounds clattery - 04/26/10 07:35 PM
Is the factory RB pushrod 9.310" ?