440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!!

Posted By: Cudalord

440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 04/10/10 05:13 AM

Ok, I've been battling this overheating problem forever, and it has to be internal, because I've tried EVERYTHING else (please don't ask me if I have a fan shroud)!!!

Now, I'm tearing down the motor and I bought some new head gaskets and I noticed something interesting. The water ports above/between the cylinders don't match up. The Felpro 8519PT-1 only has a "slit" in it, but there is a nice sized hole in the head and block obviously restricting the water flow. See pics.

Do I have the wrong gasket?

What do you recommend?

Desperate and I want to get this done this weekend. NO theories, just answers please!!!

Thanks in advance!

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 04/10/10 05:17 AM

The Gasket...

Attached picture 5917350-DSCN0803.JPG

Posted By: dirtybee

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!! - 04/10/10 05:52 AM

that's what the gaskets are supposed to look like, those are sometimes referred to as "steam holes" and most of the water flow happens in the two big passages at the front and rear of the head. i don't know why they are like that but i've never seen a big block any different than that. in that first pic it sure looks like the water passage in the block is full of crud, which would surely cause heat issues.

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 04/10/10 05:56 AM

and I noticed the passages below are blocked as well... I can't be the first one to come across this...

Attached picture 5917369-DSCN0798.JPG

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!! - 04/10/10 06:00 AM

If it's just a "steam hole", then why would it matter if it was a bit crusted or not? I thought it was full of crud because the gasket I took off was identical to the one that I'm putting on. Sorry, should have mentioned that...

Posted By: dirtybee

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!! - 04/10/10 12:19 PM

it looks to me like your coolant passages in the block may have a lot of build up of deposits. this will not only restrict coolant from flowing properly but also limit the transfer of heat from block to coolant. if your block looks like that, the heads and rest of the system are likely similar, i would get a screwdriver and poke through the crud and try to clean out the block. and heads too. this is way easier to do with the block out of the car so you can remove freeze plugs and really blow everything out of there with a pressure washer and whatever you can get in there

also, do you run a fan shroud?

just kidding.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!! - 04/10/10 01:14 PM

At 1st I thought that was just a block pic for reference but if that is the "one" it (the block) for sure needs to be baked clean. W that amt of crud it will unfortunately never be right. I'd also (w a freeze plug/jb weld) plug the large irrregularly shaped large block water passage in the rear of each deck, as said punch out the slits to match the figure eight top passages AND drill an 1/2" (at least) hole in the block/deck/gasket between #3 and #5, and #4 and #6 cyls in the outer edge of the deck adding a completely new water passage. The proper place on this edge there's 2 outer head bolt holes and you want to drill the 1/2" passage "in/up" so that it makes a triangle w the 2 head bolt holes. 2 ex valves are paired at that point and that alot of blocks have NO passage there and it is exactly the spot that needs a passage and a large one at that. And an anti cavitation plate welded on the pump vanes and at least a 1-1 crank/wp pulley ratio. Good luck to you on this dilemma and holler on what you think & how it turns out

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!! - 04/10/10 02:32 PM

? Wouldn't blocking the rear water passages keep coolant making it to the rear of the head/deck? Can anyone confirm this? All searches state that the passages are blocked to restrict coolant flow and it's not necessary to modify the gasket.

Thanks again.

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!! - 04/10/10 05:33 PM

There really isn't that much crud on it, most of it is just scaling and it brushed right off.

After doing more research on this, I've seen a lot of guys recommend drilling 3/8" holes through the head gasket to allow water through the two lower passages, and that's it.

Attached picture 5917926-DSCN0802.JPG

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!! - 04/11/10 12:56 AM

Quote:

? Wouldn't blocking the rear water passages keep coolant making it to the rear of the head/deck?

yes and that is what you want as stock the flow has a tendency to just rush to the rear past the inner (valley) sides of the cyls & some goes up in the head and some goes down around the cyls but not near enough goes down and around the cyls. This causes hot spots that induce pinging and force mixture compromises that hurt power. Plugging the rear large passage will force more coolant down around the cyls & toward the outside where it is the hottest/needed the most. If you choose to do this you would want to drill a 1/8" hole in the freeze plug so air pockets can escape. CRITICAL is the added hole between the aforementioned cyls and if you drill a 1/2" (or 3/8) you'll be able to look in there and see how close you are to the inside cyl walls. As long as you have plenty of head gasket space (surface) and are not drilling into something you shouldn't you are structurally sound

Posted By: 52savoy

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 04/11/10 02:14 PM

This discussion came up months ago.. There was a change in head gaskets, maybe in the late 70s or so. The round holes were eliminated in favor of slots. I locate the exact place where the holes need to be and repunch the head gasket. I have a set of FelPros done that way on a max wedge and I can't even get it to heat up now. Maybe a little to much flow now??

Posted By: GOLDMYN

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/18/12 02:41 AM

Hi, Has anybody had simliar problems with the felpro 1009 head gaskets?, I have an over heating issue and talked to Larry Shepard and he said he "punches" every set he uses. I had an engine shop rebuild my engine and I'm guessing they didn't know about this. any comments will be appreciated.

Posted By: challengermike

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/18/12 05:06 AM

i have used the Felpro 8519PT-1 gaskets on a bunch of engines and have not modified any thing and never had a cooling issue. My 499 ran 160 in 90 degree heat sitting in traffic with junkyard dual fan setup and a double pass rad.

Posted By: CrAzYMoPaRGuY

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/18/12 06:35 AM

Transfer slots are common discussion in Jensen Interceptor forums. Small engine compartments make cooling an issue....
I went to the Jensen Monday Club website, the tech section shows how to enlarge the transfer slots.
I roughly tripled the width of the transfer slots on my Jensen's Felpro gaskets.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!! - 03/19/12 04:42 AM

Quote:

At 1st I thought that was just a block pic for reference but if that is the "one" it (the block) for sure needs to be baked clean. W that amt of crud it will unfortunately never be right. I'd also (w a freeze plug/jb weld) plug the large irrregularly shaped large block water passage in the rear of each deck, as said punch out the slits to match the figure eight top passages AND drill an 1/2" (at least) hole in the block/deck/gasket between #3 and #5, and #4 and #6 cyls in the outer edge of the deck adding a completely new water passage. The proper place on this edge there's 2 outer head bolt holes and you want to drill the 1/2" passage "in/up" so that it makes a triangle w the 2 head bolt holes. 2 ex valves are paired at that point and that alot of blocks have NO passage there and it is exactly the spot that needs a passage and a large one at that. And an anti cavitation plate welded on the pump vanes and at least a 1-1 crank/wp pulley ratio. Good luck to you on this dilemma and holler on what you think & how it turns out

Hundreds of thousands of big blocks have run that gasket as it comes out of the box and never had a problem.

The OP has an issue and doing what you suggest is a bandaid masking the problem.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 04:45 AM

Quote:

This discussion came up months ago.. There was a change in head gaskets, maybe in the late 70s or so. The round holes were eliminated in favor of slots. I locate the exact place where the holes need to be and repunch the head gasket. I have a set of FelPros done that way on a max wedge and I can't even get it to heat up now. Maybe a little to much flow now??

There was NEVER a round hole , the original head gaskets from my 69 383 have a rectangular shaped hole instead of the slit, no other holes added . I can't see it making a huge difference .

Posted By: jamesc

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 05:11 AM

cylinder head gaskets are designed with certain size slots/holes for a reason. they are meant to properly distribute and control coolant flow, i seriously doubt the head gasket design is the cause of the problem.

Posted By: GOLDMYN

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 01:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This discussion came up months ago.. There was a change in head gaskets, maybe in the late 70s or so. The round holes were eliminated in favor of slots. I locate the exact place where the holes need to be and repunch the head gasket. I have a set of FelPros done that way on a max wedge and I can't even get it to heat up now. Maybe a little to much flow now??

There was NEVER a round hole , the original head gaskets from my 69 383 have a rectangular shaped hole instead of the slit, no other holes added . I can't see it making a huge difference .

Huge difference ?, My car is a 1971 Charger R/T that has the stock 22" radiator, I've got a "Glen-Ray" radiator and my car runs at 190 cruising and creeps to 200 at stop signs, IYHO would the change in gasket ie (punching a bigger hole" bring it down 5-10 degrees?...thanks

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 01:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

This discussion came up months ago.. There was a change in head gaskets, maybe in the late 70s or so. The round holes were eliminated in favor of slots. I locate the exact place where the holes need to be and repunch the head gasket. I have a set of FelPros done that way on a max wedge and I can't even get it to heat up now. Maybe a little to much flow now??

There was NEVER a round hole , the original head gaskets from my 69 383 have a rectangular shaped hole instead of the slit, no other holes added . I can't see it making a huge difference .

Huge difference ?, My car is a 1971 Charger R/T that has the stock 22" radiator, I've got a "Glen-Ray" radiator and my car runs at 190 cruising and creeps to 200 at stop signs, IYHO would the change in gasket ie (punching a bigger hole" bring it down 5-10 degrees?...thanks

I don't think so, the holes in the block and the head are not directly over each other so making the holes bigger is going not to change this or make the connection between them that much greater.

That said sometime after 71 or so the factory did change that hole in the block to a figure 8, but they didn't change the head gasket.

Some claim to have seen lower temps by adding the 2 holes in the gasket where those lower holes are covered by the gasket but if I remember right this was on extreme race builds ???

I'm guessing your build is more than the 22" rad , especially if you had it done as a 2 row , is capable of cooling , though I don't know what your cooling system consists of .... rows in your core , thermo temp , shroud , fan type ...

This is the original head gasket from my 69 383 , it has a 18xxxxx part number on it .

Attached picture 7125543-383headgasket001(Medium).jpg

Attached picture 7125543-383headgasket001(Medium).jpg

Posted By: GOLDMYN

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 04:20 PM

Thanks for your response, the radiator is 3 row 22", 180 stat,8 blade water pump, direct drive w/factory fan,factory spacer, factory shroud. Whats your thoughts on crusing at 190?, The cars does run good and doesn't ping, or puke, autometer temp guage, Thanks again!

Posted By: stumpy

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 04:52 PM

190 is perfectly fine. That is not high temp it's normal for most older street cars. New cars run at 200-210 normally.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 04:53 PM

Quote:

Thanks for your response, the radiator is 3 row 22", 180 stat,8 blade water pump, direct drive w/factory fan,factory spacer, factory shroud. Whats your thoughts on crusing at 190?, The cars does run good and doesn't ping, or puke, autometer temp guage, Thanks again!

190 cruising is higher than I would expect , but have you confirmed the autometer gauge is reading accurately ? It's electric I assume ?

What is the build of the engine like ? overbore ?

Posted By: GOLDMYN

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 05:25 PM

manual guage, 30 over bore w/10-1 srp piston, eagle rods, stock 346 heads w/3 angle valve/hard seats, factory distributor w/pertonix, timing @34 total, auto trans/w 2000 hughes convertor, 3:23 open factory avs w/14.3 AF 600 miles on rebuild

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 05:38 PM

Why is your total so low ? What RPM is it in at ?

Posted By: GOLDMYN

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 05:46 PM

that I can't answer, it was sit-up by the shop that rebuilt the engine, I had mention 38 and was told that was too high,

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 07:58 PM

Quote:

that I can't answer, it was sit-up by the shop that rebuilt the engine, I had mention 38 and was told that was too high,

If it were an engine build with KB step head pistons then the shop would be correct as that is what the instruction sheet calls out. If you don't have enough advance the engine will run hotter. If it were me I'd bump the timing up to 36 and see if it pings, if not then go to 38, no pinging then run it there and see how it is . Assuming that the initial does make it a little harder to start with the 4 degree advance.

Though new cars run at a higher temp the older cars cooling systems were not designed to. At 190 your thermostat is always open so the coolant is always flowing and not working to it's maximum potential I would think. I would think that at highway speed you would run at a lower temp?

Posted By: GOLDMYN

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 08:59 PM

thanks for the advise, I looked at the service manual and the 1971's call for 185 stat, which cannot be purchased as far as I know,

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: 440 Head Gaskets water passages don't match. Help!!!! - 03/19/12 11:38 PM

Thermostats control MINIMUM operating temps, not maximum. So, if you are cruising at 190 degrees and your thermostat is rated at 190 you system is working. 190 is not too high. Plenty of info out there saying colder causes more wear.