Moparts
69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque
Posted By: 68 Dart GTS
69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 01:24 AM
Mopart guys, i'm having very low end torque problems. I have a 68 dart 383. It is pretty much stock but bored 30 over, schumacher headers, 383 torker mainifold with a new holley 770 avenger carb, new Comp. XE274 cam and lifters, stock heads ported and polished with HD springs, new pushrods, rebuilt 727 trans, 323 sure grip and 3000 hughes stall converter, stock elct. ignition with orange ECU box. Everything is pretty much new in the motor, compression test is good, vac.is good but it's totally a dog on the low end out of the hole. the motor runs great and it seems to make good power but it just seems like its not getting the power to the rear wheels at launch. I'm starting to think the new in the box stall converter which i bought from a friend may be clogged or have trash in it. Any suggestions are similar problems and fixes would greatly be appreciated. I have gotten pretty frustrated and don't want to just keep throwing more money at it and hope the problem gets solved. Compression is approx 9.5 - 1 to 10-1,vac.@ 14, intl., dist. @ 12. Thanks.
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 02:45 AM
you dont have anywhere near enough initial advance! i,d try 25 deg initial and see if it picks it up... good luck dan
Posted By: forphorty
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 02:57 AM
What does the converter flash to? That 274 cam is what, 230/236 at .050? I would think 3500-3800 stall would be about right for that cam. You might consider switching to a Performer RPM or DP4B too, that Torker isn't doing you any favors in the low end department. As mentioned already. more initial timing wouldn't hurt.
Posted By: Dougsmopars
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 03:01 AM
The torker intake isn't your freind. Would be ok with 4;10 or 4;30 gears and a 4 speed. My 440 likes 22 degree's initial timing.
Posted By: 68 Dart GTS
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 03:23 AM
Thanks keep the suggestions coming. I have already thought about switching the torker intake and have a old Weiland intake simalar to the eddl.RPM that i'm gong to switch out this weekend to see what kind of improvements it will make along with messing with the timing again, which we have adjusted quite a bit already.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 05:27 AM
Quote:
along with messing with the timing again, which we have adjusted quite a bit already.
You are going to need to recurve your distributor. No way around that one. I would try first setting it up for 18 initial, 38 total. Then if the motor likes it and doesn't fight back when trying to restart the motor when hot, keep tweaking the initial up as high as you can, but recurve to keep the total at 38. And you'll want all your advance in around the 2500rpm range.
I do agree with the other replies, that cam is a bit big for a 383 with 3.23 gears and a 3000rpm converter.
Posted By: MoparJoe
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 08:46 AM
I would try more advance first, as much as you can get without it rattling when you lay into it- probably near 30* base, 36-38* max with 9.5 comp and open chamber heads, if thats not enough get a tight 8" converter or a 4 speed.
Posted By: patrick
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 12:59 PM
is that verified or what the pistons are supposed to give?
KB flat tops at 0 deck, steel shim head gasket, and OEM 906 heads (~92cc) usually only yields 8.5-8.7:1. with the 6cc dome, its in the 9.4-9.6:1 range....but their specs, you need to mill the deck ~.024" to get them at 0 deck...drop them into an uncut block, drop those compression figures another .2 points. if they are stock type replacement pistons in the hole, you're probably in the upper 7's to low 8's for compression at best, unless you've milled the snot out of the heads or the block deck.
what's your cranking compression in PSI?
initial with that cam, assuming actual compression is in the 8's, I'd run about 18-20. if your cranking compression comes in low (under 150), I'd seriously consider dropping in cam size a bit (lunati voodoo 60302 is what I'd pick), or opening up the motor and advancing installed centerline of the cam 4-6 degrees to close the intake valve sooner to gain cranking compression. the torker is also a mediocre intake...especially if you're looking for "street" performance...
http://hotrod.automotive.com/62106/hrdp-0712-mopar-intake-manifold-comparo/edelbrock-383.htmlcheck out the torque figures at 3000 RPM...it's down 25 lb-ft from a weiand action plus, or eddie performer, and most likely a stock intake.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 01:23 PM
you'll never get good low-end grunt w/ 3.23 gears.
Posted By: RemCharger
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 06:56 PM
Quote:
you'll never get good low-end grunt w/ 3.23 gears.
ding-ding. Much more fun with good gears.(4.56)
Posted By: peelerboy
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 07:08 PM
I'm with the guys on the gear. You'll get your maximum bang-for-the-buck by installing at least 3.91's, if not something steeper.
At the very least, get your distributor recurved to allow full advance at a lower rpm. (e.g. 2k) This will bring a lot more low end grunt into play.
Dale
Posted By: imfixinmopars426
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 07:46 PM
remember..a 69 runner came with 3.23's..small carb..a low dual plane intake,and a
214-220@.050 cam..and ran strong. you have..too much cam,too big intake..maybe too low comp= no torque. a dog w/ 3k stall,which w/ no torgue= low flash i bet.2-2200?..and 3.23 makes a pig out of it...oh and set the total at 36deg FIRST! i would look into a 214-224 cam,a performer/perf rpm? intake and tune it right and have a strong driver! classic mis-match issue.
Posted By: Gt383
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 07:54 PM
That short stroke motor is crying for big gear...That 3.23 is a highway gear for that short stroke, I'd want at least a 4.30 or better to maximize ur combo, u wont believe hat it'll do to that car.
Posted By: BSB67
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 02/26/10 10:29 PM
Quote:
Mopart guys, i'm having very low end torque problems. I have a 68 dart 383. It is pretty much stock but bored 30 over, schumacher headers, 383 torker mainifold with a new holley 770 avenger carb, new Comp. XE274 cam and lifters, stock heads ported and polished with HD springs, new pushrods, rebuilt 727 trans, 323 sure grip and 3000 hughes stall converter, stock elct. ignition with orange ECU box. Everything is pretty much new in the motor, compression test is good, vac.is good but it's totally a dog on the low end out of the hole. the motor runs great and it seems to make good power but it just seems like its not getting the power to the rear wheels at launch. I'm starting to think the new in the box stall converter which i bought from a friend may be clogged or have trash in it. Any suggestions are similar problems and fixes would greatly be appreciated. I have gotten pretty frustrated and don't want to just keep throwing more money at it and hope the problem gets solved. Compression is approx 9.5 - 1 to 10-1,vac.@ 14, intl., dist. @ 12. Thanks.
What is your cylinder pressure?
Posted By: 68 Dart GTS
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/02/10 01:58 AM
Thnaks guys, i know i have a mis-matched set up, i was trying to work from a budget and alot of horse trading to build this car/engine and am paying for it now. The compression check is at 160-165 @ all cylinders, and i went with the recommendation of comp. cams on using the XE274 230-488 cam with the current set up, but they said using higher gears would be better... i debated on using the XE268 cam which is 224-477 but comp. recommended the 274 with the stall speed etc. I'm working on putting the Weiland intake on and going with a higher gear probably 3.55 to 3.90. this is going to be my weekend cruiser and i really want to be able to run 70 mph without all the RPMS. Thanks again to all for your help and imput. Also the Int. timing is at 25-28 which i stated a incorrct int. timing in my original post.
Posted By: 383man
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/02/10 02:27 AM
Lots of good advise here. I can tell you that I ran a very mild 383 for a few years. I used the same orange ECU with a stock dist I recurved and in fact that same dist is in the 400 in my sons Dart right now. I installed the MR Gasket spring kit and set the total at 38 all in by 2000 rpm. I let the initial timing fall where it did as long as it had full timing by 38 I was happy. The initial was around 18 to 22 when I actually looked at it. It had a stock bottom end including stock pistons. The 452 heads had some mild pocket porting and were cut for 9.5 comp. I had the MP .484 cam in it and used the Eddy RPM intake. Had a 3000 tight TA converter and 3.91's all in a 72 Dart. It had great bottom end as it would fry the street tires even if you nailed it from a 10 to 15 mph roll and it ran as fast as 12.30's @ 110 at the track.
I would take some of the advise these guys have given you and get the initial timing up more and definetly 3.91 gears will help. Good luck , Ron
Posted By: patrick
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/02/10 02:06 PM
Quote:
Thnaks guys, i know i have a mis-matched set up, i was trying to work from a budget and alot of horse trading to build this car/engine and am paying for it now. The compression check is at 160-165 @ all cylinders, and i went with the recommendation of comp. cams on using the XE274 230-488 cam with the current set up, but they said using higher gears would be better... i debated on using the XE268 cam which is 224-477 but comp. recommended the 274 with the stall speed etc. I'm working on putting the Weiland intake on and going with a higher gear probably 3.55 to 3.90. this is going to be my weekend cruiser and i really want to be able to run 70 mph without all the RPMS. Thanks again to all for your help and imput. Also the Int. timing is at 25-28 which i stated a incorrct int. timing in my original post.
one thing I think a lot of mopar guys do is overcam...I woulda listened to the little voice in your head and run the XE268...that said, if you want to keep your 3.23's, I'd definitely run the dual plane intake, and I'd actually pop the front of the motor apart and degree the cam in to a 102* ICL from comp's recommended 106.
Posted By: pushbutton
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/02/10 02:41 PM
I'd try that set up with the 3.23's. I think you'll be happy.
Posted By: imfixinmopars426
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/02/10 08:49 PM
[quote
one thing I think a lot of mopar guys do is overcam...I woulda listened to the little voice in your head and run the XE268...that said, if you want to keep your 3.23's, I'd definitely run the dual plane intake, and I'd actually pop the front of the motor apart and degree the cam in to a 102* ICL from comp's recommended 106.
exactly! decide what gear to run for YOUR usage,and build the engine for that...dont put 3.91-4.10's and be afraid to drive the car like you REALLT WANT TO! 
Posted By: furious70
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/02/10 10:04 PM
unless I missed it in here somewhere, you didn't say and no one asked if you degreed the cam when you put it together? If not, that's an obv. first thing.
With a 3.23 gear you may like the Weiand intake better, but if you are going to move to a 3.55 or 3.91 I would personally leave that torker on there.
Too late now, but I know several guys who love the XE268 in their 383's.
Posted By: RSI700VIPER
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/02/10 11:19 PM
You can advance the cam timing to get more low end power. Hopefully the cam was dialed in correctly. If not, that could be the source of your problem. I put a MP cam in a motor once that needed a 6 degree offset bushing to center it. I would never buy a MP cam again. Pure junk.
Posted By: 68 Dart GTS
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/03/10 01:50 AM
The cam degree was put in TDC, It's just a weekend cruiser not a race motor, i have some buddys with stroker 440's with alot more power and other Mopars with pretty much stock motors and they where installed TDC without advancing it and they run like a bat out of hell.
What am i missing on degreeing the cam for street use. Also any suggestions on who re-curves dist. in the Houston, TX. or surronding area's.
Thanks for all the imput, you guys have been alot
of help and carry the Mopar banner very well...
Posted By: REDNICK
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/03/10 11:31 AM
I just installed a FBO dizzy advance limiter kit in my Coronet R/T with a solid 290 comp cammed 512/4sp/3.9. Local pump gas is 98 octane.(Australia)
In my application, I limited it to 14 deg total so I can run about 20 deg initial running to about 34 total.Vacuum advance not used in my case.
Also the advance springs were changed to delay the total to about 3k to compensate for the heavy car.
It went pretty good before, but it goes like a raped ape now...and revs VERY cleanly with no real chance of detonation with the low total advance number (my engine has high comp and alloy heads also-iron heads and lower comp would be better with up to 38(?) deg.)
Good kit for less than 40 bucks.Easy to install-good instructions
From "4secondsflat.com" guy.....
NEW From FBO
"Do it Yourself Advance Limiter Kit #J685
This kit contains our Exclusive and Patent Pending Advance Limiter Disc, RPM springs, complete step by step Full Instructions and our 47 Page Spiral bound"
"Tuning Guide"
Posted By: patrick
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/03/10 12:54 PM
Quote:
The cam degree was put in TDC, It's just a weekend cruiser not a race motor, i have some buddys with stroker 440's with alot more power and other Mopars with pretty much stock motors and they where installed TDC without advancing it and they run like a bat out of hell.
What am i missing on degreeing the cam for street use. Also any suggestions on who re-curves dist. in the Houston, TX. or surronding area's.
Thanks for all the imput, you guys have been alot
of help and carry the Mopar banner very well...
where the cam is installed at (intake centerline) has the major impact on where the intake valve closes, which is what determines cylinder pressure. cyl pressure determines torque for the most part.
for an XE274, it's ground with a 110 degree LSA, but with 4 degrees of advance built in, so if it was degreed in to verify intake centerline, it should be at 106 degrees after top dead center (ATDC). that puts the intake close point 63 degrees after bottom dead center (ABDC). compare to a comp XE268, which has the intake close point at 60 degrees ABDC.
now assuming you used the KB flat tops at 0 deck, 906 (usually 90-92cc) heads, and a thin MP head gasket, that yields a true compression ratio of ~8.8:1. using one of the online dynamic compression ratio calculators, and plugging these assumptions in, the dynamic compression of this motor end up being ~7.1:1...by advancing the cam 4 degrees, the DCR jumps up to 7.3:1....advancing the cam will move the powerband down in the RPM range, giving a boost in low end and midrange, and a slight cost in the top end (how much time do you spend at 5500-6000 RPM anyway?)
in essence, it'll make your XE274 behave a little more like the smaller XE268.
Posted By: BELVEDERE67
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/03/10 03:19 PM
I don't think the cam is too big. Yes at the top end but not too big. Degree the cam. You never know really what the cam timing is unless you degree it. Advancing is a good plan. Change the intake to a dual plane. That will help. But understand that your buds have strokers and those motors have mounds of torque. You cant compete with that but you can make you combo the best it can be.
Posted By: RemCharger
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/03/10 04:55 PM
When I have 3.23s in my street car(383) it runs the end of the track at 100mph.... in second gear.
This is not a 440, or a stroker. Its got the same size stroke as a torqueless 340.
It needs gears to do what you want it to do.
Posted By: ireland383
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/03/10 05:01 PM
What rpm are you turning in 2nd gear at 100 mph.?
Posted By: RemCharger
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/03/10 05:05 PM
6500.
Posted By: ireland383
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/03/10 05:12 PM
6500 Awesome! To the op I had a 3.23 suregrip (cone) and couldn't break the tires free. Turned out to be a worn out suregrip, switched to 742 clutch type, 3.55's and was able to lay some nice slabs. Grant it this was before the rebuild of the motor. Still had the same stall 2400-2600. My cam is smaller Comps 275DEH 219/235 462/482.
Posted By: 383duster
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 03/03/10 11:42 PM
When you floor the pedal, does the engine goes to the ~3000 rpm as what the converter should be?
Posted By: 68 Dart GTS
Recurved Distributors - 03/25/10 11:54 PM
does anyone out there in Moparland know who would re-curve a MP distributor in the Houston, Tx area.
Thanks.
Posted By: RemCharger
Re: Recurved Distributors - 03/26/10 01:41 AM
You. Just take it apart and put in the mr gasket lite springs. Then, if its not enough advance at idle, shorten the slots a bit.
Posted By: Dougsmopars
Re: Recurved Distributors - 03/26/10 01:54 AM
Summit sells the Mallory recurve kit. Pretty easy install. Comes with all the different springs and the little gauges for total. Pretty cheap too.
Posted By: Dougsmopars
Re: Recurved Distributors - 03/26/10 01:58 AM
383 for a weekend crusier will do fine with 3:91 or even 4:10's. You can still go 70 on the highway. Like everything else you can't have the cake and eat it too. The car would be a lot of fun with 4:57's but forget the highway. Lose the torker it sucks for a street car. I'd advance the cam 4 degree's if it's just set dot to dot. And get your timing up.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Recurved Distributors - 03/26/10 02:29 AM
Quote:
does anyone out there in Moparland know who would re-curve a MP distributor in the Houston, Tx area.
I'd find out how much initial your cam/eng wants then w that figure in hand & the chart weld up/shorten the slots to get 36-38 total (vac adv disconnected/hose plugged if you are using VA) and might have to dissassemble it (change slot length) several times to get it real close (spread the clip ends w your long thin needle nose pliers as much as you can in the tight confines in there then grab one end and whip it around to it's open side to open it up the rest of the way and up & out in 1 motion). Then play w the springs then hookup/play w the vac adv (if used)
Posted By: The Shadow
Re: Recurved Distributors - 03/26/10 05:59 AM
Simple question
Have you checked the kick down linkage?
Posted By: HYPER8oSoNic
Re: 69-383 Motor not making enough low end torque - 04/18/10 05:18 AM
Quote:
Mopart guys, i'm having very low end torque problems. I have a 68 dart 383. It is pretty much stock but bored 30 over, schumacher headers, 383 torker mainifold with a new holley 770 avenger carb, new Comp. XE274 cam and lifters, stock heads ported and polished with HD springs, new pushrods, rebuilt 727 trans, 323 sure grip and 3000 hughes stall converter, stock elct. ignition with orange ECU box. Everything is pretty much new in the motor, compression test is good, vac.is good but it's totally a dog on the low end out of the hole. the motor runs great and it seems to make good power but it just seems like its not getting the power to the rear wheels at launch. I'm starting to think the new in the box stall converter which i bought from a friend may be clogged or have trash in it. Any suggestions are similar problems and fixes would greatly be appreciated. I have gotten pretty frustrated and don't want to just keep throwing more money at it and hope the problem gets solved. Compression is approx 9.5 - 1 to 10-1,vac.@ 14, intl., dist. @ 12. Thanks.
Go with the 4.10's. It is a trade off: noise/poor
mileage vs. great street/track performance. If you
are looking for a "true dual-purpose car", you will need an overdrive tranny or unit. Along with
the 4.10's, you have a choice. Either you can make the Torker work with a SMALLER carb (650cfm)
or go with the Eddy RPM manifold and your current
770 cfm carb. Optimize the power valve/jetting in either case.
Try to get your ignition at 35-38
deg. total at in by at least 2200rpms. Double check your compression ratio, since it is possible to have something closer to high 9's. You
did not indicate if you had ZERO DECK height or not. The
total timing may be affected by this factor.
Food for 
. That lightweight A body should be running, at the least, very low 12's. :twocents