360 or 408 for work truck?

360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/14/10 03:56 AM

So, my tired 318 is starting to show its age, and I'm looking for a little more umphh. I don't know if the 360 will be 'good enough' for what I need, or if I should just go with the 408

This would be going in my '72 W200;
4400' Elevation
4.10s & 32" tires
727
E10 gas

~5600 lbs

Would be used for pulling horses and highway driving moving stuff around. Will likely never see much over 3k rpms.

I have a line on two 360s ('89 & '90), so both roller cams, pre-mag, and TBI. (May hold out for a 93+ with MPI)

It WILL be Fuel Injected. If I go with a 360, I figure I'll use the stock computer system. With the 408 I'd go with the Ford EEC-IV system. I can get the system free off a friends car he's parting out.

Eventually I was thinking it may be nice to swap in a 518 to get the highway RPMs down, but I'm not sure if the 360 by itself would have enough torque to maintain speed at ~2k rpms? Currently running ~2800 @ 60mph.

I figured that when I build the 360, it'll need to be bored/decked/etc to get a higher CR and quench, so why not throw a stroker kit at it at the same time.

Mainly, it must be reliable. Once it's buttoned up, I don't want to open it again for another 10 years.

So what say ye moparts? 360 or 408? Or will more cubes always win out

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/14/10 04:00 AM

Quote:

~5600 lbs
Would be used for pulling horses and highway driving moving stuff around. Will likely never see much over 3k rpms.
So what say ye moparts? 360 or 408? Or will more cubes always win out

408

Posted By: Neil

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/14/10 04:02 AM

The 4" crank will up the torque a noticable amount over a stock 360.

If you keep the cam and carburetor on the small side it shouldn't be too bad on gas.

EDIT: Missed the FI part so ignore the part about the carburetor.

Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/14/10 05:05 AM

408 had a big differnce in torque and building it is not much more than a standard 360 rebuld

Go 408
I love mine

Posted By: Magnum

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/14/10 05:48 AM

Quote:

Eventually I was thinking it may be nice to swap in a 518 to get the highway RPMs down, but I'm not sure if the 360 by itself would have enough torque to maintain speed at ~2k rpms? Currently running ~2800 @ 60mph.

I have a 5 speed manual behind a carbed 5.9L Magnum. With a 28" tire and a 3.55 gear it's around 2000rpm on the highway. It makes for great cruising, so yes. Easily can push an unloaded truck down the highway. Mine is in a smaller D150 and it's returned 22-23 mpg.

If towing is the main concern. Sure more cubes would be the answer but it's at a cost of mpg.
I used to get better milege with the 318 that was in my truck.

Before my 5 speed manual. I had a 518. Combined with 3.23 gears, it was too tall. That's when I switched to 3.55's. Another thing is you'll need a lockup version. Overdrive plus the tall gear will make the convertor constantly slip down the highway as the rpm will be close or lower than the stall speed.

Posted By: 1974Cuda360

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/14/10 07:31 AM

I have a fuel injected 408 using the Ford's EEC IV mass air computer system and I am using the A518 transmission in my Cuda.

Be prepared to spend some loot and time to achieve your goals. Building a 408 is a project. Fuel injecting it is also a project with it's own hurdles. And, adapting an A518 is definitely not as easy as replacing your existing transmission.

I am not trying to discourage your goals, but I want to make sure that you realize these upgrades require a lot of patience, money, time and fabrication to get right. It is not a bolt on process. That being said, it will be absolutely awesome when it is complete. I�d get the 408 and the A518 in the truck first before attempting to fuel inject the engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1bjlLnHg9k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B9x9YOfeYc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7kTRU1EcQs

Attached picture 5803378-DSC_0053.jpg

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/14/10 07:56 AM

Quote:

I have a fuel injected 408 using the Ford's EEC IV mass air computer system and I am using the A518 transmission in my Cuda.

I've read your other threads about the EEC swap. They are what got me thinking about it

The 518 swap would be a ways down the road, if ever. Since the truck is a 4x4 (short tailshaft), I either need to move the transfer case back (

), or see if a married 518/TCase would be close to fitting in the same space (new trans mount of course). So, yea, it'll be a while

With the 408, do you think the magnum Multi-port intake would work alright, or should I get an aftermarket single plane and drill it for injectors? Sure, it probably won't flow as well at 6k, but I'll never see that high. I don't even have the engine yet, so I have time to find a used intake for cheap.

Ideally I'll have it running on an engine stand with the EFI, so it'll at least idle when it's first in the truck

Thanks for the thoughts!

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/15/10 09:54 PM

Quote:

With the 408, do you think the magnum Multi-port intake would work alright, or should I get an aftermarket single plane and drill it for injectors? Sure, it probably won't flow as well at 6k, but I'll never see that high. I don't even have the engine yet, so I have time to find a used intake for cheap.

Bump.

I'd be happy if I could get ~15+ mpg with the new setup. I'm currently only getting ~10-12

Any other thoughts?

Posted By: ahy

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/16/10 02:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have a fuel injected 408 using the Ford's EEC IV mass air computer system and I am using the A518 transmission in my Cuda.

I've read your other threads about the EEC swap. They are what got me thinking about it

The 518 swap would be a ways down the road, if ever. Since the truck is a 4x4 (short tailshaft), I either need to move the transfer case back (), or see if a married 518/TCase would be close to fitting in the same space (new trans mount of course). So, yea, it'll be a while

With the 408, do you think the magnum Multi-port intake would work alright, or should I get an aftermarket single plane and drill it for injectors? Sure, it probably won't flow as well at 6k, but I'll never see that high. I don't even have the engine yet, so I have time to find a used intake for cheap.

Ideally I'll have it running on an engine stand with the EFI, so it'll at least idle when it's first in the truck

Thanks for the thoughts!

The magnum "beer barrel" intake was designed to give 360 cubes a low rpm "sweet spot" around 2600-3000 RPM. Runners would likley be too small to feed 408 cubes well. It is possible to modify the runners to increase flow by cutting them back but this still may not be a great match. If you are using Magnum heads, the Edlerock 2 plane magnum intake or one of the MP intakes may be better. Hughes has written a good bit on this subject on their web site... and also sell an EFI ready Edelbrock manifold.

Posted By: dulcich

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/16/10 02:27 AM

I would put a warmed-over 318 in it and call it a day for a work truck. Way better mileage, lots cheaper, and plenty of power for a daily work rig.
-dulcich

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/16/10 04:20 AM

Quote:

The magnum "beer barrel" intake was designed to give 360 cubes a low rpm "sweet spot" around 2600-3000 RPM. Runners would likley be too small to feed 408 cubes well. It is possible to modify the runners to increase flow by cutting them back but this still may not be a great match. If you are using Magnum heads, the Edlerock 2 plane magnum intake or one of the MP intakes may be better. Hughes has written a good bit on this subject on their web site... and also sell an EFI ready Edelbrock manifold.

$600

Wowzers Sounds like it works pretty well though.

I guess if I go with the 408 I'll find an aftermarket intake and drill it for the injectors.

Quote:

I would put a warmed-over 318 in it and call it a day for a work truck. Way better mileage, lots cheaper, and plenty of power for a daily work rig.
-dulcich

That's tempting as well. I know my current 318 is tired, but I haven't had anything else to compare it to. So I guess I'm knee-jerking towards the 'overkill' side of things

It'd just be nice to have 0-60 times better than 'eventually' when empty, 'Sometimes' when towing the horses, or 'Never' when going uphill

Decisions decisions.....

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/16/10 05:42 AM

Quote:

So I guess I'm knee-jerking towards the 'overkill' side of things
It'd just be nice to have 0-60 times better than 'eventually' when empty, 'Sometimes' when towing the horses, or 'Never' when going uphill
Decisions decisions.....

5600 lbs

, at the very least I'd get a 360 in there and I'd seriously consider a BB which may very well end up being cheaper than a stroker 408 build would.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/16/10 06:50 AM

Quote:

5600 lbs , at the very least I'd get a 360 in there and I'd seriously consider a BB which may very well end up being cheaper than a stroker 408 build would.

I guess I should define 'horses'. 3300# trailer, 1000# horses x2, some addition, carry the 1, uhh, I think that comes up to 9,999# gross

No wonder the truck has trouble going up hills, lol.

I don't think a BB swap would be more than a grand cheaper than a 408 build would, considering how much would be the 'same' between the two builds. A 360 build would be a lot cheaper than the BB swap.

360 needs pistons, maybe rods
408 needs crank, rods, pistons
440 needs pistons, maybe rods, & all hardware to make the swap (headers, wp, engine mounts, oil pan), & BB 727 + rebuild.

Probably different heads for each build.

EFI is basically the same for all of them.

Machining, rings & bearings, etc, are close enough to the same for each build to cancel out. Basically the only difference is the cost of the stroker crank vs. the new hardware for the swap.

The 360s I know of locally are cheap enough it doesn't make sense to not use them in a new build.

Posted By: feets

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/16/10 05:46 PM

Huffercharge it! You're going EFI so build the little 318 again and stick a blower or turbos on it. You'll have all the power you need and still get good mileage.

Posted By: QuickDodge

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/16/10 06:10 PM

If you want towing power, mileage, and reliability, a Cummins diesel swap might be the best option. These were used in the 1989-1993 trucks, so the parts are around to make it a bolt in installation for your truck.

Posted By: patrick

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/16/10 09:06 PM

I'd probably go with a magnum, 318 or 360 with a 4" arm, and some dished pistons (KB or diamonds), mag heads with hughes 1110 springs, the pushrod pinch opened, the guide bosses profiled, and the valvejob & bowls opened up a little, or use the EQ318's, long tube headers, eddie RPM air gap, stock roller lifters, hughes 1110 springs, and a roller cam with fast ramps and 208-215@.050, maybe the stock roller cam reground with the bullet HR259/316 lobe for intake and exhaust....

if carb, I'd probably use an 800 eddy, or an a adapter and a t-quad.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/17/10 02:55 AM

I thought about a turbo, but that just seems like it'd be asking for trouble. More things to break, and to get HOT while towing up hills.

I have seen some diesels on craigslist for a few grand. Don't they weigh quite a bit more than a gasser? I already have a snow plow that sits out front occasionally and really weighs it down.

I think I'm kinda leaning towards the 408. A smaller cam, and assuming I keep my foot out of it (

) it shouldn't have worse mileage than what I'm currently getting (10-12). It's far from a daily driver, and probably only gets a few thousand miles on it a year.

Posted By: ahy

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/17/10 04:21 AM

I've towed with the 360 "Magnum" at around 10,000 gross weight through the hills of Missouri(Durango + Uhaul trailer + Car). It did pretty well with 3.55 gears. If you found a healthy late model FI 360/5.9 you would see a big improvement over the early 70's 318 I think. I guess the 318 was around 150 net HP vs around 240 for the Magnum. A stroker Magnum would be even better.

Best bang for the buck would be a rebuilt or low mileage used original fuel injected 360/5.9. Build the stroker if time and budget allow. If you do go the FI route you've probably thought about the fuel system. A frame rail mounted high pressure pump works OK but not great. An in tank pump is much better. The chance for pump cavitation and short pump life is greatly reduced with the in tank approach... especially at altitude.

Posted By: Von

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/17/10 04:34 AM

Quote:

Eventually I was thinking it may be nice to swap in a 518 to get the highway RPMs down, but I'm not sure if the 360 by itself would have enough torque to maintain speed at ~2k rpms? Currently running ~2800 @ 60mph.

Well, I had a 90 Dodge 3/4 ton with the 360 for quite a few years, 13 to be exact. We did alot of pulling with that truck (Id guess 50K or so miles, truck had 165xxx when we traded it) and it was always decent. Never pulled a super heavy load, heaviest was probably 9klb travel trailer. The truck always pulled very good. Even in OD it would pull the travel trailer along pretty decent, of course hills you had to knock it out of OD, but on flat ground, no problem. I can only remember one time when I had it on the ground for a considerable amount of time. We went down south for Spring Break one year with the travel trailer. When we headed home we hit a 35MPH or so headwind, drove from Dallas to OKC with it on the wood, all the way, 55MPH tops, not a cent more. BTW the truck had 4.10s. As mentioned no comparison between the 318 and 360. Not saying the 360 is a man eater, but a heck of alot better than the 318. We had a 83 1/2 ton with a 318. Pulled a 6klb or so travel trailer with it (Probably 20K miles), you literally had it in 2nd all of the time, 1st most of the times in the hills. It was a total pig.....When I met my wife she had a 94 1/2 ton with a Teen, it too was a total gas sucking pig...Would barely pull the race car on an open trailer.

Course if it were me, Id go 408 with the Ford system. That is what I had planned on doing to my truck, but traded it for our 03 Cummins. Still wish I had that ole '90..........My wife on the other hand, well lets say she doesnt miss it one bit.

Posted By: patrick

Re: 360 or 408 for work truck? - 02/17/10 01:03 PM

another option to think about with building torque/power would be a relatively short cam with lots of lift (say like the roller lobe I suggested) but a stock stroke 360 magnum with KB107's at 0 deck. that would give you a lot more compression (~10.6-10.8), which would help with torque production. it may be too much cyl pressure for pump gas, but that would be the plan, and then use a water injection kit to control detonation. from a fuel economy standpoint it should be more efficient that more displacement but lower compression while making similar HP/torque...