Moparts
500" Engine Build 440 Source?
Posted By: kz5rt2
500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/03/10 02:29 AM
I'm just beginning my first stroker build. I've built more or less stock 440's and have dyno'd around 450 hp basically a little more than stock setup.
I've searched around on the forums and 440source is bar none the biggest bang for the buck! During the last couple of weeks, I've traded a few emails with them asking about a complete parts list for the build along with dyno results if possible.
Here's what I plan to run it in.
Early B body stock Plymouth.
3:91
2500 stall
max wedge exhaust manifolds coupled to a full 3" exhaust
Edelbrock RPM performer intake
Edelbrock 800 carb.
Here's where I'm looking for guidance on the engine build.
-440 block .030
-4.350"
(.030 over) -24 (Dish) 1.867" -.018" P/N: 440.500.5080
Does anyone have knowledge on the stealth heads, or are the edelbrock's recommended?
Camshaft?????
Comp Cam Xtreme Energy Hi-Lift .564"
Any help or experience with 440source products is greatly appreciated! I rarely see anything negative about 440source!
Regards,
Posted By: kz5rt2
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/03/10 02:32 AM
I forgot to mention, I'm looking at no more than a CR of 9.5:1.
Thanks
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/03/10 02:45 AM
Quote:
I forgot to mention, I'm looking at no more than a CR of 9.5:1.
Thanks
Why so low? Aluminum heads pull enough heat out to typically allow an extra point of compression without worries of detonation... & if you get the right combonation of parts to have effective quench thats good for another half point... Lots of streetable engine run 10.5-10.8 on pump fuel...
Posted By: kz5rt2
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/03/10 02:54 AM
Yes, you're right, it would probably be a good idea to shave another .5 pt out of it. I'm jusr paranoid to ping and overheat problems.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/03/10 02:56 AM
I would still build for quench just use the large dish to lower the C/R... Quench is always beneficial...
Posted By: WILD BILL
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/03/10 02:59 AM
Why build a big motor and choke it W/ manifolds?
Posted By: kz5rt2
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/03/10 03:02 AM
Eventually I plan on installing a crossram setup. Didn't the max wedge/superstock manifolds flow well?
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/03/10 03:14 AM
Quote:
Eventually I plan on installing a crossram setup. Didn't the max wedge/superstock manifolds flow well?
They flow as well as any manifold.. The just weigh a ton... But I think the cool factor is well worth it.. Unless your building a race car 500 inches means enough torque that you can leave a little on the table & still have an ear to ear grin...
Posted By: AndyF
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/03/10 03:29 AM
Look in the tech archives for plenty of 500 inch stroker builds.
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bigblock.htmlI also wrote an entire book on the subject which you can find at various Mopar parts dealers.
I don't think you'll need the 3.91 gears if you build a 500 inch engine. 3.55 will work just fine as will 3.23 gears.
Posted By: 67Charger
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/03/10 03:52 AM
My 496" 440 source motor runs 10.4:1, .034" quench with the Eddie RPM heads and is faster on pump gas than on race fuel. The cam is .604"/.597", 264°/259° solid. I've spun it to 7000, and the timing is 18° initial and 34° total. After tuning it is putting out right at the 600HP mark and 600 ft.lbs from 3000 on.
Posted By: kz5rt2
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 01:56 AM
Excuse my ignorance, but what does it mean when you guys use the terminology "quench"?
I am leaning toward eddie's heads, but the price of 440source's stealth heads are very attractive. Has anybody had/know of someone with experience using those heads.
Posted By: ahy
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 02:25 AM
Quench means at least part of the piston comes very close to the head at TDC. The near contact stirs up the mixture to help cool it and prevent detonation. .040" clearnace is considered ideal and fairly easy to get with Ed or 440 Source heads. Set the flat part of the piston at zero deck (piston comes right up to the top of the block) and use a common .040" thick head gasket and you have it.
Careful piston choice, deck machining and/or custom pistons may be required to get 0 deck but the benefit is significant.
Posted By: Triggerfish
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 02:33 AM
Quote:
Quench means at least part of the piston comes very close to the head at TDC. The near contact stirs up the mixture to help cool it and prevent detonation. .040" clearnace is considered ideal and fairly easy to get with Ed or 440 Source heads. Set the flat part of the piston at zero deck (piston comes right up to the top of the block) and use a common .040" thick head gasket and you have it.
Careful piston choice, deck machining and/or custom pistons may be required to get 0 deck but the benefit is significant.
Very true & ceramic coatings for the combustion chambers & piston tops also can significantly prevent hot spots & detonation, so w/ quench, aluminum heads & coatings, you should have no problem w/ high compression.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 02:34 AM
I think you are ok, (cannot remember how they route) but you may want to check to make sure the angle plug of the Edelbrocks will work with your manifolds. Otherwise the straight plug Stealth will have to do.
Posted By: Stanton
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 04:12 AM
The 500" stroker will be choking if you use the stock Stealth heads. You'd need to go with their CNC'd heads or step up to something else with the same or better flow.
A zero decked block with a closed chamber head and .040 gasket will provide the quench. What you need to figure out is which of their pistons will give you your desired CR with the above.
I have a 440Source kit (528") and I'm pleased with what I see HOWEVER, it is not a "drop in" assembly. So far I've noticed that the pins don't fit in the rods and the rods will need to be honed. It looks like the damper (theirs) isn't going to fit the crank either.
Posted By: cragar
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 04:19 AM
so 915 with .040 quench what compression can I run and still use pump regular or premium?
Posted By: HemiDave
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 04:47 AM
Quote:
so 915 with .040 quench what compression can I run and still use pump regular or premium?
About 9.5:1 with the steel heads.
Dave
Posted By: HemiDave
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 04:57 AM
Yep, run the items you listed, get the pistons for 0 deck (10.5:1 compr ratio), get the Stealth heads (they will be fine on the street), paint 'em same as the block and tell everyone it's a 440 with just an aftermarket intake...
Dave
Posted By: kz5rt2
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 05:14 PM
Quote:
Quote:
so 915 with .040 quench what compression can I run and still use pump regular or premium?
About 9.5:1 with the steel heads.
Dave
So. 10.5:1 is sufficient with the stealth heads and still run pump gas?
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 06:19 PM
Yes because the aluminum pulls heat out of the chamber area much quicker than iron.. And depending on the fuel you have available somr guys run over 11-1 on pump fuel... I'm building mine at a true 10.25 cause I'd rather be conservative & know it will be safe with Californias lousy fuel & still make all the power I need for a street toy..
Posted By: Stanton
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 06:47 PM
Quote:
get the Stealth heads (they will be fine on the street)
They're gonna choke that poor thing !!
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 06:52 PM
Quote:
Quote:
get the Stealth heads (they will be fine on the street)
They're gonna choke that poor thing !!
Depends on how he plans to use it.. If he plans to spin it to 6-6500 rpm's then yeah the Stealths will choke it but it he's willing to accept that it makes gobs of torque up to around 5200 rpm's & gears the car to use that torque than he'll have a engine that should live a long life & offer very respectable performance...
Posted By: 1968RR
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 07:04 PM
I have the cam you mention in my 440. You can afford to up the compression if you're using that cam. I have 11.5:1 compression ratio and run the car on 93 octane pump gas with no problems.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/05/10 07:14 PM
Quench Explained....
Take a coffee can ˝ full of gasoline burning with slow flicking flame. Strike the can with a baseball bat and you have what I would call a “fast burn”, much like what we want in the combustion chamber. The fast burn idea helps our performance engine by shortening the overall burn time and the amount of spark lead (negative torque) dialed in with the distributor. If you go from 36 degrees total to 32 degrees total and power increases, you either shortened the burn time or just had too much timing dialed-in in the first place. If you have really shortened the burn time, you won’t need so much burning going on before Top Dead Center. Now you can retard timing and increase HP. Did you ever have an engine that didn’t seem to care what timing it had? This is not the usual case with a fast burn combustion but an old style engine with big differences in optimum timing cylinder to cylinder will need 40 degrees of timing on some and others only need 26 degrees. If you set the distributor at 34 degrees, it is likely that 4 cylinders will want more timing and 4 cylinders will want less ( V-8). Moving the timing just changes, which cylinders are doing most of the work. Go too far and some cylinders may take a vacation. Now what does quench really do? First, it kicks the burning flame front across and around the cylinder at exactly TDC in all cylinders. Even with spark scatter, the big fire happens as the tight quench blasts the 32 degree old flame around the chamber. Just as with the coffee can, big flame or small flame, hit it with a baseball bat and they are all big instantly. The need for custom cylinder-to-cylinder timing gets minimized with a good quench. The more air activity in a cylinder you have the less ignition timing you are likely to need. When you add extra head gaskets to lower compression you usually lose enough quench that it is like striking the burning coffee can with a pencil. No fire ball
This was written by By John Erb & I copied it from a really good article here..
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/article.php?action=read&A_id=39
Posted By: 383man
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/06/10 08:58 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
so 915 with .040 quench what compression can I run and still use pump regular or premium?
About 9.5:1 with the steel heads.
So is 10.5 good with stealth heads and running 93 pump ??? Yes !
My 440 is stock stroke and .030 over (446) and I use the MP .557 solid cam. I use 906 open chamber heads that have been milled some and I have the KB quench pad pistons. I run right on 10.0 comp and at 37 total timing thats all in by 2000 rpm I have no ping at all with my iron heads. So an aluminum head eng using 11.0 with the right cam wil run fine on 93 pump. At 10.5 on aluminum heads you will be fine.
Ron
Posted By: kz5rt2
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/06/10 12:18 PM
I've been trying to do some homework and I spoke with Edelbrock tech support about their heads. They stated I would not be able to run their heads due to the spark plug angle interfering with the superstock manifolds.
I'm beginning to think running aluminum may be a problem. Not quite sure if aluminum can support the weight of the manifolds. 440source said there would not be a problem. I calculate about 10.6 cr with the source heads and their 80cc chambers. That is a little higher than I'd like to go! Anybody know if aluminum can support the weight?
Posted By: therocks
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/06/10 02:41 PM
The aluminum heads will be fine with the heavy manifolds.My stealths on my 440 run at 6800 and are still pulling when I shift.Rocky
Posted By: Stanton
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/06/10 04:29 PM
Quote:
Anybody know if aluminum can support the weight?
The stealths have helicoils in the exhaust bolt holes so that really basically turns a 3/8" bolt into nearly a 1/2" bolt which does wonders to spread the load. I wouldn't worry about it.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/06/10 05:27 PM
And since Stealths are actually 84cc the compression ratio will be closer to 10.2 or 10.3...
Posted By: Triggerfish
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/06/10 06:45 PM
Randy, thanks for the interesting read. I let my builder put the 88cc eddys on my 451 low deck w/ the 440 source stroker kit & am worried about having no quench. He says its zero deck, but I'm tempted to mill the heads. I've read that CNC ported stealths flow pretty well, but would the small chamber eddys w/ CNC porting be better for his 500 build? Would the Max Wedge exhaust limit the power?
Posted By: StealthWedge67
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/06/10 06:45 PM
I like the Stealth heads with that build. They run so close to the Eddys on all the flowbench tests I've seen, that its reasonable to assume the performance will be nearly identical. The straight plugs are a must with the manifolds. And mostly, your build has a very stock look with the dual plane manifold and stock exhaust manifolds, the stealth heads will allow that motor to look nearly completely stock, and run like a banshee!
Posted By: BSB67
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/06/10 07:00 PM
Quote:
I've been trying to do some homework and I spoke with Edelbrock tech support about their heads. They stated I would not be able to run their heads due to the spark plug angle interfering with the superstock manifolds.
You can get the Eddy head with straight plugs. They are the "Mopar" head with a 452 casting #.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/06/10 08:05 PM
Quote:
You can get the Eddy head with straight plugs. They are the "Mopar" head with a 452 casting #.
BSB67 is that an open or closed chamber?
Posted By: BSB67
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/06/10 09:01 PM
Closed, advertised as 84 cc.
Posted By: kz5rt2
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/09/10 06:40 PM
Looks like the mopar aluminum heads are ideal, exactly like factory cast.
Are the exhaust ports and height same as factory for the 440Source Stealth heads?
Posted By: HemiDave
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/09/10 07:12 PM
Yes. They look EXACTLY like factory heads...thus, the 'Stealth' moniker.
Dave
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/09/10 07:40 PM
Quote:
Looks like the mopar aluminum heads are ideal, exactly like factory cast.
Wishfull thinking.
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/bigblalcocyh.html
Posted By: BSB67
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/10/10 12:22 AM
They look like the Eddys, but say Mopar.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/10/10 12:32 AM
Exactly! That's because they are made by Edelbrock for Mopar Performance.
Posted By: Von
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/10/10 03:18 PM
Quote:
Quote:
so 915 with .040 quench what compression can I run and still use pump regular or premium?
About 9.5:1 with the steel heads.
Dave [/quote)
I dang sure dont agree with this statement. Im running 10.5 with open chamber iron heads, without any detonation problems. No quench whatsoever. Of course I have a decent sized cam, 259@.050, but 9.5 is on the conservative side.
Posted By: 383man
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 02/10/10 04:36 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
so 915 with .040 quench what compression can I run and still use pump regular or premium?
About 9.5:1 with the steel heads.
Dave [/quote)
I dang sure dont agree with this statement. Im running 10.5 with open chamber iron heads, without any detonation problems. No quench whatsoever. Of course I have a decent sized cam, [Email]259@.050[/Email], but 9.5 is on the conservative side.
I agree with Von because as I said I am running 10.0 with 906 heads and no ping at all. I even run on 92 pump alot as thats all some of my local stations have. I do have fairly good quench as all cylinders are in the .040 to .042 area and I use the MP .557 cam. Ron
Posted By: kz5rt2
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 03/01/10 01:12 PM
Just a quick question. I had overheating problems on a prior engine that was bored out 0.060. I have two possible engines I can use, one is an early 440 that cleans up at 0.040 and the other is a late 440 with stock bore that would be 0.030.
I'm partial to using the early 440 at 0.040 bore, would this extra bore factor into any scenarios of overheating?
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 03/01/10 04:25 PM
Quote:
Just a quick question. I had overheating problems on a prior engine that was bored out 0.060. I have two possible engines I can use, one is an early 440 that cleans up at 0.040 and the other is a late 440 with stock bore that would be 0.030.
I'm partial to using the early 440 at 0.040 bore, would this extra bore factor into any scenarios of overheating?
I would use the late 440. The later 440's gained a small amount of strength over the earlier ones and you can sell the earlier one to someone who cares about date codes.
Posted By: shanker
Re: 500" Engine Build 440 Source? - 03/01/10 04:54 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Just a quick question. I had overheating problems on a prior engine that was bored out 0.060. I have two possible engines I can use, one is an early 440 that cleans up at 0.040 and the other is a late 440 with stock bore that would be 0.030.
I'm partial to using the early 440 at 0.040 bore, would this extra bore factor into any scenarios of overheating?
I would use the late 440. The later 440's gained a small amount of strength over the earlier ones and you can sell the earlier one to someone who cares about date codes.
It took me 4 years to find a standard bore 1978 440 casting...the only difference is a little more meat casted into the bottom of the block though.