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Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts

Posted By: GTXKen

Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/28/09 04:45 PM

Hey - I'm thinking about adding the firm feel rear sway to my GTX. Anyone run them or have a better idea?

http://www.firmfeel.com/swaybars_b.htm
Posted By: 68GTS383

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/28/09 07:19 PM

About 5 years ago I bought a 72 Demon 6yl 4bbl it had Adco aftermarket sway bars front and back.In general driving it felt a little bouncy but in a curve it felt like a sports car.
Posted By: GTXKen

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/28/09 08:04 PM

Does the Adco bar mount above the axle like the firm feel does?
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/28/09 09:54 PM

The Hellwig bar is a much beefier unit, but like all the rear bars on the market, be prepared for a little fab, the Helwig mounts to the axle,below it, and yes it'll work with a DANA 60,.....the firm feel bar isn't bad either,...the ADDCO is junk, looks pretty but fit is horrible, not even worth trying to make it work
Posted By: minivan

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/28/09 09:55 PM

I have the firm feel rear sway bar on my 67 coronet.. Made alot of difference before and after...

I had the adco? bar that mounted to the axle tubes and had the funky mount to the frame.. Sold it and bought the firm feel unit..

After looking at the firm feel unit why would anyone want to use any other???

Attached picture 5694421-vertbaseball.jpg
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/28/09 10:31 PM

I'd go with the FirmFeel setup if it was my car.
Posted By: 69rrconvert

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/29/09 12:49 PM

I used the Firm Feel front sway bar setup on my 69 rr vert and I am very happy with the installation and the improvement in ride and handling
Posted By: GTXKen

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/29/09 03:20 PM

Thanks for all the feedback, looks like its the Firm Feel bar I should go with. Next question is should I swap the front bar to a Firm Feel as well or will I be ok with the stock 40 year old unit?
Posted By: GTXKen

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/29/09 03:22 PM

Quote:

I have the firm feel rear sway bar on my 67 coronet.. Made alot of difference before and after...

I had the adco? bar that mounted to the axle tubes and had the funky mount to the frame.. Sold it and bought the firm feel unit..

After looking at the firm feel unit why would anyone want to use any other???




Hey Minivan, any issues with the install? What exactly was the difference before and after? I'm sure you could feel it but where did you feel it, how does it change the ride/handeling?

Thanks
Ken
Posted By: DartGTX

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/29/09 03:26 PM

Hello Ken,

I installed the Hellwig bar on my car in 2000. It was the BEST upgrade I did regarding handling. With the factory front bar, poly suspension, KYB shocks and 255x50x16's on all four corners, my '70 GTX lifts the inside rear wheel on an autocross course. I STRONGLY recommend the Hellwig bar.


Good luck,

Attached picture 5695748-tightturn.jpg
Posted By: GTXKen

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/29/09 03:32 PM

Quote:

Hello Ken,

I installed the Hellwig bar on my car in 2000. It was the BEST upgrade I did regarding handling. With the factory front bar, poly suspension, KYB shocks and 255x50x16's on all four corners, my '70 GTX lifts the inside rear wheel on an autocross course. I STRONGLY recommend the Hellwig bar.


Good luck,




I'll have to check out the Hellwig bar, I know nothing about them and this is a pretty strong endorsement. Nice car by the way!

I have installed frame connectors and torque boxes all poly bushings front and rear, .96 bars and HD leafs with an extra leaf installed and I'm running IAS shocks.
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/29/09 03:59 PM

I also installed a Hellwig on the back of my 69 B'cuda. Nice piece(adjustable,dogbone links,etc) Great customer service!!!! Will be putting their front one on this spring
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/29/09 05:03 PM

From a previous post I made...

****The 70-72 B-body, E-body, and 73-76 A-body front sway bars are very similar and share the same issues with aftermarket sway bars.

These later cars have a sway bar that passes through the K-frame that is unique. The inner bushings are bolted to a U-channeled bar on each side of the K-member

The Addco front sway bars have a poor K-frame attachment hardware. They replace the U-channeled bars with flat stock. They also have a lower control arm bracket that goes off the shock bolt with a skimpy simple piece of angle iron. A very weak setup.

The Firm Feel, Hotchkis and Hellwig front sway bars have nice thick adapter brackets to mount the sway bar to the frame. Hotchkis has a super beefy cast aluminum poly bushing housing. Hotchkis and Hellwig sway bars are hollow which save at least 5 pounds over a solid 1 1/8" sway bar from what I have weighed. I think you can order the Firm Feel front sway bars in hollow design.

On the lower control arm end, Frim Feel and Hellwig have nice sturdy hardware that bolts to the lower control arm and you drill a properly placed and supported hole to mount the study end link bracket. Hotchkis actually repros the factory lower control arm bracket in a little thicker metal. It would pass for stock for 90% of the people looking at it. You have to stare and focus on it, to notice. But, you do have to weld it on. If you have factory sway bar lower control arms, all brands will bolt in.


****The rear sway bar is different also....

The new Hellwig and Hotchkis rear bars have dog bone style end links. The traditional donut washer style bushings are very sensitive to where you place the frame bracket. If the bracket is of just a little the sway bar will have preload in it while the car is at rest.

The dog bone style end links have freedom of fore and aft movement and will not bind in those directions. Also that design allows for adjustable rear sway bar stiffness. The three holes in the Helwig and Hotchkis rear sway bars offer three stiffness settings.

The only bummer on those two rear bar designs is that they are axle mounted and bolt under the axle housing. That has addition unsprung weight and sometimes makes it a pain to use jackstands under you axle tubes. But weight is reduced on those rear bars because they are hollow design.

The Firm Feel rear sway bar is frame mounted like the original E-body rear sway bars were. The install is a little more involved but the finished result is very clean. They don't have the unsprung weight, but they don't offer an adjustment feature.

The Addco rear bar is axle mounts and has old style end donut end links. It's tricky to get the frame mount drilled in the right location so as not to bind up the end links. This is tough to do because the frame is at a 45 degree angle to the ground at that place.

I think that covers the major difference in the major sway bar offerings on the market now.
Posted By: patrick

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/29/09 05:06 PM

Quote:

Thanks for all the feedback, looks like its the Firm Feel bar I should go with. Next question is should I swap the front bar to a Firm Feel as well or will I be ok with the stock 40 year old unit?




how does the car handle now? if it's fairly neutral to slight understeer, increasing rear roll stiffness will make it biased towards oversteer, which can be kinda dangerous on the street. I'd talk to Dick and firm feel and take his suggestion, but I'd say you'd probably want a 1.125" front bar minimum if you're putting a rear bar on. if it has a factory front bar that's small (i.e. stock M bodies have a 7/8" front bar), see if you can find a bigger bar that utilizes the stock mounts, as it should hopefully be less expensive.

if your rear tires are significantly wider than the fronts (say, 225's in front and 275-295's in back) that'll bias towards understeer, and the rear bar alone might just bring it back to neutral without going so far as to make it oversteer happy....
Posted By: minivan

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/29/09 07:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have the firm feel rear sway bar on my 67 coronet.. Made alot of difference before and after...

I had the adco? bar that mounted to the axle tubes and had the funky mount to the frame.. Sold it and bought the firm feel unit..

After looking at the firm feel unit why would anyone want to use any other???




Hey Minivan, any issues with the install? What exactly was the difference before and after? I'm sure you could feel it but where did you feel it, how does it change the ride/handeling?

Thanks
Ken




Biggest issue with the 66-67 cars are the Sway bar brackets bolt up right where the fuel/brake lines come around the frame area on the wheel well.. I just loosened mine up and ran em around the brackets.. Looked alot harder than it was..

I had purchased a different rear sway bar many years ago through a Year one promotion..

To feed some "doohickey square things with a threaded hole" down the inside of the frame, and then attach the ends of the sway bar to it??? Well lets just say I thought that sway bar belonged in disneyland.. Not to say how ugly it was clamped to the rear axle housing... The firm feel looks like it came that way from the factory.

Personally, with the stock front sway bar and KYB shocks all the way around, it handles pretty darn sweet.. NO major sway, and it stopped my rear wheel/tire combination from rubbing on my wheel wells...

I guess the "clamp" on rear sway bars might offer more adjustability, but If I wanted to drive autocross I probably would buy a different car for that purpose...
Posted By: feets

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/29/09 09:20 PM

I don't know about you, but I've never driven a muscle-era Mopar that wasn't a push [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] with stock suspension. Every one of them has wanted to go straight when you lean on 'em in a corner. B/RB powered cars are even worse.

Once you throw some heavier springs, GOOD shocks (not KYB crap), and a little frame stiffening things will probably change.

I've got the big bar from the front of a 69 RR on the hot rod. I added the big rear bar from Just Suspension (Addco style) and it evened out the handling a bit. Some good springs and shocks are still needed.

As for the RR lifting the inside rear tire in an autocross, it sounds like you've got some stiffening to do up front. That's a LOT of lift in the rear. The body is squishing something down pretty hard. That something has to be the outer front corner. I hope that chassis has been stiffened.
Posted By: 65Coronet7165

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 02:42 AM

Well, I vote for the rear sway bar too!! I have a C body boat....'67 Chrysler 300. I've totally rebuilt and upgraded the suspension over a period of almost 3 years. Each change brought marked handling improvements and the ride has not deteriorated (in fact it has probably improved).
To summarize, the car has a completly rebuilt suspension and steering system with:
New rear springs from ESPO
1.16" torsion bars from Just Suspension
1 1/8" front sway from Firm Feel
Tubular upper control arms (Just Suspension w/custom alignment)
Firm Feel stage 2 p/s box
New steering coupler, column support bearings
Boxed lower control arms
KYB shocks

The last changes I hemmed and hawwed about for quite a while but then decided to bite the bullet and go for "broke".

I had subframe connectors installed
7/8" rear sway from Firm Feel
Bilstein shocks sourced from FF

I will tell you this, the rear sway and Bilstein shocks made a tremendous difference. With the rear sway there is less body lean (to be expected) more precise steering (less steering input or corrections to keep intended path)
Better braking. Most of this is just from the rear sway I'm sure.

The Bilstein shocks alow the car to handle properly but still provide a remarkably smooth ride. With the KYB's the car would bottom on speed bumps and sudden road changes (crossing intersections at moderate speed). GO for IT!! You will NOT regret it!!!
Posted By: ogopogo

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 03:34 AM

Which of the rear bars require the least amount of hacking or drilling to the car itself?
Posted By: MonGoo$e

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 04:27 AM

had the Addco on a 74 Challenger. Although the bar hung below where you could see it from behind the handling was amazing. Especially when you compare it to NO sway bar. I'll add one to my 73 Duster when its time to do the rear install. Might try the Firmfeel if it's tucked up in there.
Posted By: patrick

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 12:50 PM

Quote:

Well, I vote for the rear sway bar too!! I have a C body boat....'67 Chrysler 300. I've totally rebuilt and upgraded the suspension over a period of almost 3 years. Each change brought marked handling improvements and the ride has not deteriorated (in fact it has probably improved).
To summarize, the car has a completly rebuilt suspension and steering system with:
New rear springs from ESPO
1.16" torsion bars from Just Suspension
1 1/8" front sway from Firm Feel
Tubular upper control arms (Just Suspension w/custom alignment)
Firm Feel stage 2 p/s box
New steering coupler, column support bearings
Boxed lower control arms
KYB shocks

The last changes I hemmed and hawwed about for quite a while but then decided to bite the bullet and go for "broke".

I had subframe connectors installed
7/8" rear sway from Firm Feel
Bilstein shocks sourced from FF

I will tell you this, the rear sway and Bilstein shocks made a tremendous difference. With the rear sway there is less body lean (to be expected) more precise steering (less steering input or corrections to keep intended path)
Better braking. Most of this is just from the rear sway I'm sure.

The Bilstein shocks alow the car to handle properly but still provide a remarkably smooth ride. With the KYB's the car would bottom on speed bumps and sudden road changes (crossing intersections at moderate speed). GO for IT!! You will NOT regret it!!!




the KYB's are crap. they're just harsh. I hate them....I am trying to decide what shocks I want to go with for my M body, as choices are very limited unless you want to do major rework to the mounting locations or spend bucko bucks on custom built shocks....I'm thinking of trying the monroe sensa-tracs....I also see rockauto now has Sachs shocks for my app, so I might try those. my moto guzzi has Sachs fork and shocks and rode/handles very well.
Posted By: patrick

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 12:51 PM

Quote:

Which of the rear bars require the least amount of hacking or drilling to the car itself?




probably firm feels, as it looks like it uses the factory locations for mounting.
Posted By: GTXKen

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 02:12 PM

I'll likely order and install the Firm Feel bar in March, now I'm anxious to see how much better the car handles.
Posted By: GMP440

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 03:36 PM

Would love to see pics of rear sway assemblies on cars to see the different attachement methods especially on the rear axle.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 03:58 PM

Quote:

Would love to see pics of rear sway assemblies on cars to see the different attachement methods especially on the rear axle.




Hotchkis

Instruction sheet: http://www.hotchkis.net/_uploaded_files/2255f22552255rinstructions169file.pdf







Attached picture 5697864-09HotchkisMoparOpenHouse31.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 04:02 PM

Quote:

Would love to see pics of rear sway assemblies on cars to see the different attachement methods especially on the rear axle.




Firm Feel (from website)

(62-79)B Body Rear Sway Bar Kits
Isoclamp axle mount must be modified or converted to older style axle mount




The next 2 pics are of an A-Body installation,
(the B-body has the same layout)



Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 04:07 PM

Quote:

Would love to see pics of rear sway assemblies on cars to see the different attachement methods especially on the rear axle.




Addco:


NOTE:Hellwig"reference is the old style. The new style is like the Hotchkis with a dogbone link.






Attached picture 5697883-4_6_07CudaAlignment0104Sm.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 04:22 PM

Quote:

Would love to see pics of rear sway assemblies on cars to see the different attachement methods especially on the rear axle.




Hellwig









Attached picture 5697926-DSC00863.JPG
Posted By: GTXKen

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 06:43 PM

Its the way the Firm Feel bar mounts that got my interest initally. Their website also states that it will clear caltracks and I may want to add those in the future.
Posted By: 2fast4yourBrain

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/30/09 06:49 PM

Go w/Firm Feel.

Mounting the bar on the frame reduces unsprung weight.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 12/31/09 04:19 AM

Quote:

Its the way the Firm Feel bar mounts that got my interest initally. Their website also states that it will clear caltracks and I may want to add those in the future.




I just showed pictures. You make the decision. There are pluses and minuses to each (excluding the Addco). Certain cars and what the buyers want to do with the cars will dictate choice.

The over the axle is a clean looking setup for sure.

The over the axle type does have the possibility to interfere with exhaust routing. More so if it's large pipe. I think you could see the possible critical areas from the pictures and get a good idea if there will be a problem. Tough for a manufacturer to predict custom hand built exhaust work. I think that's why most companies are afraid to build them that way. That and the installation is more involved since you have to unbolt the axle to switch shock plates. And it might be tough to thread the sway bar in the exhaust hooked up.

Also if you move the springs inward it's not going to work.
Posted By: challenger70

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 01/22/10 04:55 PM

hmmm, now I don't know if I want to install my XV setup on my Charger... (they use the addco bar)
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 01/22/10 05:11 PM

Quote:

hmmm, now I don't know if I want to install my XV setup on my Charger... (they use the addco bar)




I run an addco in two of my cars. It gets the job done. It just doesn't have the features as the others. You have to put some care and thought to mounting the frame brackets.
Posted By: Crocker

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 01/22/10 05:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:


The over the axle type does have the possibility to interfere with exhaust routing. More so if it's large pipe.




This is the only issue I had with the firm feel rear bar on my E body. The car got a stroked hemi and I was hoping to go 2.5" pipes over the axles mimimum, but with the cars low stance and the firm feel bar, I ended up with 2.25" pipes, plus some fancy bends.... Other than that, no problems with the install and extremely high quality hardware
Glenn
Posted By: challenger70

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 01/22/10 07:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

hmmm, now I don't know if I want to install my XV setup on my Charger... (they use the addco bar)




I run an addco in two of my cars. It gets the job done. It just doesn't have the features as the others. You have to put some care and thought to mounting the frame brackets.




+ the package is all designed to work together so I guess i don't want to monkey around with just part of it. I am planning on having my welder weld that bracket to the frame rail, anything wrong with that?
Posted By: 360view

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 01/24/10 11:48 AM

for only $15 this book is a good read:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Your-Car-...mp;sr=8-1-fkmr0

or for slightly more

http://www.amazon.com/Car-Suspension-Wor...618&sr=8-20

instead of adding a rear sway bar
it is usually better to decrease the front bar diameter and/or go to softer springs in the front
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 01/25/10 02:18 AM

Quote:

...

instead of adding a rear sway bar
it is usually better to decrease the front bar diameter and/or go to softer springs in the front






Go less than stock front springs? Like /6 T-bars or 440 to 318 T-bars?

Then that just reduces front roll rate, transfers more load to the outside tire, and causes the outside tire to drastically lose camber and grip.
Posted By: mopars_1

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 01/25/10 02:41 AM

can I use the addco front bar with a firm feel rear bar without any negative effects? I already have the addco 1 1/8 bar. If it works out, what size best compliments this? thanks!
-kevin
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 01/25/10 03:05 AM

Quote:

can I use the addco front bar with a firm feel rear bar without any negative effects? I already have the addco 1 1/8 bar. If it works out, what size best compliments this? thanks!
-kevin




You'll be fine. Firm Feel bars front bars are 1 1/8 also.

If you are really trying to dial in your front and rear balance you'll need a adjustable rear bar. There are too many variable to get it absolutely perfect. And driver preference and driving style is on of the big variables a manufactuer can't predict.
Posted By: mopars_1

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 01/25/10 04:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

can I use the addco front bar with a firm feel rear bar without any negative effects? I already have the addco 1 1/8 bar. If it works out, what size best compliments this? thanks!
-kevin




You'll be fine. Firm Feel bars front bars are 1 1/8 also.

If you are really trying to dial in your front and rear balance you'll need a adjustable rear bar. There are too many variable to get it absolutely perfect. And driver preference and driving style is on of the big variables a manufactuer can't predict.




alright, my biggest concern was the different sizes that are offered out there. thanks!
-kevin
Posted By: Steve383

Re: Thinking about adding a rear sway bar...your thoughts - 01/25/10 04:21 AM

The Firm Feel rear bar is great!
I installed one on my 67 Charger.

The brake line is easy to move out of the way.

There are some that have had issues with the exhaust pipes getting in the way. Do a test fit with weight on and off the rear axle to make sure you have clearence before you start drilling holes.

One additional note.

You are probably going to need longer U Bolts to install it. There is a plate that gets added to the leaf springs for the sway bar to attach too and my stock U Bolts were not long enough. I got 4 new ones at a local spring and suspension shop for like $30

I will be replacing my front stock bar with a FF bar this summer.
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