Moparts
340sb with 5 speed conversion?
Posted By: Buschi340
340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/28/06 08:30 PM
Hi everybody.
I want to swap a 5 speed behind my 340 with now tf 904 equiped 72 Dart.
I`ve read about Toyota supra 5 speeds with a Dakota 3.9 V6 Bellhousing. Chevy S10 tranny should fit on this Bellhousing too.
Anybody made or heard about this?
I don't wanna go the Keisler way cause its to expensive for me here in germany...
Posted By: CJK440
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/28/06 11:00 PM
Chevy S-10 box won't survive if you plan to drive it like it is supposed to.
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/29/06 04:48 AM
Working on the Toyota Supra/Magnum V6 bellhousing swap, but haven't gotten very far yet. A newer transmisison that would fit the Mag V6 bell is the MA5 that is very common now. Used in the Solstice/Sky roadsters, and also the Colorado trucks, and in some Isuzu SUV's as well. Much better synchronizers, and I think the trans has similar strength and gear ratios. You'll have some floor cutting to do, as it's very wide just in front of where the trans crossmember is. Haven't gotten that far with mine, though.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/29/06 10:14 PM
Quote:
Used in the Solstice/Sky roadsters, and also the Colorado trucks, and in some Isuzu SUV's
... not that common cars here... Supra is easier to find. What kind of supra tranny are you using ( year, etc..)? And fits every tranny on every Magnum V6 bellhousing or are there differences?
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/29/06 11:25 PM
The Supra transmission is one from a 88-92 turbo, and the model is the R154. The trans from the non-turbo should also bolt up, but is not as durable as the R154. The Dakota bellhousing was used with the AX15 transmission, and both the R154 and the AX15 are built by Aisin-Warner. The bolt pattern on the transmission is very common, and was used with a variety of vehicles/transmissions. The Solstice/Sky aren't common over here, but the Colorado/Canyon trucks are, as well as the Isuzus I mentioned. I'm not familiar with what European cars may have come with these transmissions (other than the Supra), but there must be quite a few. Here's an article that covers MANY of the possible swap options for this family of transmissions:
Giant Transmission Swap Article on Jeeps-Offroad.comLots of good reading there.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/30/06 11:53 AM
Thanks.
I know this page but that much information is confusing me.
Whar clutch system (from what car and hydraulic or not) are you planing?
Do you have the hole drilled for the pilot bearing? In my case I don't really know yet...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/30/06 09:50 PM
OK, here's my plan, although it's still pretty much in the plan stages.
Flywheel - going to use the 93 Dakota V-6 unit, as it's internally balanced, and set up for a "normal" 10.5" clutch & pressure plate. Note that the Dakota flywheel is 143-tooth, like the 11" clutches.
Clutch - Advance Adapters makes a conversion clutch for the Toyota spline in a 10.5" diameter. It's not the most heavy-duty piece, but it's built for off-roading, so it's no slouch, and at $120, it's by far the cheapest option I've seen. RAM Clutches will make me a Powergrip clutch disk for about $250, and I'm waiting an estimate for a Kevlar clutch disk from Superior Clutches. I expect that setup to be $5-600
Linkage/TOB - The Dakota bellhousing is already set up for a hydraulic TOB, so that's what I'm going to use. The clutch MC and slave are all pretty common on Dakotas, and have a decent reputation.
Pilot Bearing - The Dakota bellhousing is about 1/2" deeper than the normal 4-speed bellhousing, and the input shaft on the trans is shorter as well. I'm *PRETTY SURE* that I'll end up using the sleeve portion of the Magnum roller pilot bearing, and a custom bronze bushing for the pilot on the Toyota trans. I MAY be able to use the Toyota roller bearing, but I haven't put my hands on one yet, and I haven't mocked up the whole system to see how it's all REALLY going to work out. The sketches and measurements I've made so far seem like they'll work, but I won't know for sure until I put parts together for real.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/30/06 11:45 PM
that sounds that you know what you're talking about. Do you use the Mopar clutch pedal? What shifter do you wanna use? How much do I have to open the tunnel?
Hope I don't stress you but I wanna go this way and need answers from experienced...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/31/06 07:37 AM
so wait, you can use the r154 on a 340 motor??? what about a 360 motor??? i know it will withstand the power,,,
also what other items are needed for the swap
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/01/07 07:52 PM
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/01/07 08:52 PM
Quote:
that sounds that you know what you're talking about.
I wouldn't go that far, but I have been doing a lot of reading on the subject. I also got a good deal on the R154 trans, so it's worth a shot for me.
Quote:
Do you use the Mopar clutch pedal?
The pedals I'm planning on using are the OEM pedals that came in my car. Not sure what I'll have to do to make them work, but I don't imagine it will be a big deal. I'm sure there are some aftermarket pedals that would do the job, too.
Quote:
What shifter do you wanna use?
I'm going to start out with the Supra shifter, but it may not be long enough. It's pretty short, and will be centered on the trans tunnel. Some Dakotas have interesting shifter handles, so I'm looking at those, too.
Quote:
How much do I have to open the tunnel?
I have no idea, but it's a fat transmission. My floor is already cut for a 4-speed with factory hump, so it's no biggie if I have to open up the other side a little bit, too. With the shifter in the center, you MAY be able to get rid of the hump and run automatic-style carpet in the car.
Quote:
Hope I don't stress you but I wanna go this way and need answers from experienced...
No stress on me, but I don't have all the answers you need either. I'm still trying to figure the swap out, and the only way I'll be able to do it for sure is to DO IT. All I have now is a bunch of internet bookmarks and a few parts in the garage. I need a junk A-body that I can hack on, but my wife wouldn't tolerate that very well...
As for the power handling, I would guess 3-400hp would be fine, more than that and you really ought to look at a different trans. With all the cutting that will be needed, if you're going to make big power, you may as well step up to a TKO or T-56.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/01/07 09:13 PM
is there a question I didn't already asked???
Hm, how do connect the driveshaft with the tranny?
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/01/07 11:44 PM
That looks relatively easy at this point. The Toyota driveshaft uses u-joints that are almost identical to the small 7260 Mopar u-joint. The outside diameter of the u-joint cap is larger on the Toyota, but the inside diameter, where the roller bearings ride, is exactly the same. I bought two u-joints, one Toyota and one Mopar, and switched two of the caps. This will let me use the Toyota yokee on the small-joint Mopar driveshaft.
At this point, I'm not 100% sure if there will be any issues centering the joint, but it might be solved with different thickness snap rings.
Like I said, I'm working on this little bits at a time, but haven't completed much but data gathering yet...
Clair
Posted By: Bzzzz
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/02/07 06:10 AM
Quote:
Quote:
that sounds that you know what you're talking about.
I wouldn't go that far, but I have been doing a lot of reading on the subject. I also got a good deal on the R154 trans, so it's worth a shot for me.
Quote:
Do you use the Mopar clutch pedal?
The pedals I'm planning on using are the OEM pedals that came in my car. Not sure what I'll have to do to make them work, but I don't imagine it will be a big deal. I'm sure there are some aftermarket pedals that would do the job, too.
Quote:
What shifter do you wanna use?
I'm going to start out with the Supra shifter, but it may not be long enough. It's pretty short, and will be centered on the trans tunnel. Some Dakotas have interesting shifter handles, so I'm looking at those, too.
Quote:
How much do I have to open the tunnel?
I have no idea, but it's a fat transmission. My floor is already cut for a 4-speed with factory hump, so it's no biggie if I have to open up the other side a little bit, too. With the shifter in the center, you MAY be able to get rid of the hump and run automatic-style carpet in the car.
Quote:
Hope I don't stress you but I wanna go this way and need answers from experienced...
No stress on me, but I don't have all the answers you need either. I'm still trying to figure the swap out, and the only way I'll be able to do it for sure is to DO IT. All I have now is a bunch of internet bookmarks and a few parts in the garage. I need a junk A-body that I can hack on, but my wife wouldn't tolerate that very well...
As for the power handling, I would guess 3-400hp would be fine, more than that and you really ought to look at a different trans. With all the cutting that will be needed, if you're going to make big power, you may as well step up to a TKO or T-56.
Clair
Does the T-56 or TKO bolt up to the magnum bell housing with out all the mods and not using the using the Keisler Conv? working on different mopowered project. thanks
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/02/07 03:06 PM
No, the Magnum bellhousing - and we're talking about the AX-5 / AX-15 Dakota bellhousing - is unique, and won't fit any other type of transmission. The Aisin-Warner trans pattern is unlike anything else in the "normal" transmission world, and uses dowel pins to locate the bell on the trans. See attached pic.
The Viper T-56 has it's own funky partial bellhousing, and the GM F-car (Camaro/Firebird) T-56 is GM-specific. You can run a GM to Mopar adapter bellhousing that would do the trick, though.
The TKO (as far as I know) uses a "normal" round input bearing retainer, but you'd have to match the bell depth and bearing DIA to the trans, and the Keisler bell is the only one I know of that makes it a bolt-on. I don't think there's any magic in the process, but they have done all the leg work to make it happen.
The big things with all these units is that they will require some surgery to make them fit.
Clair
Posted By: CJK440
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/02/07 03:25 PM
Quote:
Does the T-56 or TKO bolt up to the magnum bell housing with out all the mods and not using the using the Keisler Conv? working on different mopowered project. thanks
I think the most direct way to mate a Tremec TKO to a small block Mopar is to buy the Lakewood Small Block Mopar to Muncie bellhousing and buy a GM spec TKO and bolt it up.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/02/07 08:34 PM
Clair,
I really apreciate the lot of information you gave. There's light at the horizon....
Hardest thing for me seems to get the Dodge Bellhousing .........
Michael
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/02/07 09:49 PM
Check with some of the diesel-powered Chryslers & Jeeps over there. The little 2.4L Italian diesel used in the Jeep Liberty over here APPEARS to use the same bellhousing as the Dakotas. There's a photo of it on the Jeeps-Offroad thread. Not sure what flywheel the diesel uses, though.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/03/07 12:02 AM
maybe some others are interested or clair has news...
btw, I've subscribed at the jeep page...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/10/07 09:02 PM
Posted By: Flo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/10/07 10:21 PM
maybe stupid question, but: why does noone use the complete Dodge truck trans (I think they are called NV5400)? Are they that huge, I eman the A518s are usable in muscle cars too? Wrong gearing for street car? Would tehy fit into a C-body (I got one...)?
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/10/07 11:55 PM
The NV4500 is about 100kg, has a 6:1 first gear and a monster shifter coming right out of the top of the transmission. It would be a conversation piece, that's for sure, but I wouldn't want to try to drive a car with one!
R.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 03/01/07 06:38 PM
Clair,
this is a Bellhousing from a 1987 Dakota V6. What do you think? Does it fit?
Btw, I just bought the Supra tranny...
Posted By: patrick
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 03/01/07 08:57 PM
Quote:
maybe stupid question, but: why does noone use the complete Dodge truck trans (I think they are called NV5400)? Are they that huge, I eman the A518s are usable in muscle cars too? Wrong gearing for street car? Would tehy fit into a C-body (I got one...)?
the NVG1500/1550 replaced the AX15 in 4cyl jeeps and 4cyl daks, and that's a very weak tranny--I wouldn't put it behind a V-8. the NVG3500/3550 was behind 5.2's in dakotas and rams, but they are physically very large, and have an integral bellhousing, like an auto tranny. IIRC they're rated from NVG for 300 ft-lbs, and because of that were never offered behind 360's in 1/2 tons, only 318's. I had one in my truck, ratios were nicely spaced, but I don't think it would be worth the hassle (you'd have to do MAJOR surgery for this one--it's physically larger than a tremec TKO) the NVG4500 was in 3/4 and 1 tons, it's a cast iron 5 speed with low (6:1ish) first gear, and is very beefy, but not performance oriented, and larger than the 3500. the 5600 is the cast iron 6 speed that was offered in 1 tons. it makes the 4500 look small. I used to work for the company that built all the shifters for NVG and the Tremec T-800 tranny in the GM pickups (In fact, I did some of the design work on the tremec shifter)
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 03/02/07 02:53 AM
That would work with the A-435? 5-speed, but not the Supra trans. You have to use the bellhousing from the AX-15 transmission, as it bolts up the same as the supra. You can see how strange the supra trans bolt pattern is when you take the supra bell off.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 03/23/07 10:59 PM
Clair,
a 143 tooth 318/ or 340 steel crank flywheel 10.5 inch clutch? Is this good? Or does it has to be a Dakota one..........?
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 03/25/07 02:57 AM
I *THINK* that any 143-tooth flywheel will interchange, but don't quote me on that, I haven't verified. The Dakota V-6 flywheel I've got looks the same as my 130-tooth flywheel, except larger diameter. I need to put them on a flat surface and compare critical dimensions for depth, but they LOOK to be the same. The nice thing about the Dak V-6 'wheel is that it uses a 10.5" clutch & pressure plate, just like the OEM 340's. The smaller clutch disk will shift easier since the synchros in the trans don't have to stop as much mass as a larger flywheel, and the lighter rotating mass on the flywheel will let the engine rev easily. Going to the larger/heavier parts really hurts performance. A nice combo MIGHT be a 143-tooth aluminum flywheel with a 10.5" clutch disk & pressure plate.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/08/07 06:32 PM
Clair, any news from your project?
For me it's hard to find the bell and flywheel etc... in other words the US parts...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/09/07 02:09 AM
No progress on my end, I've been putting all my time (all 3-4 hours per week
) in to getting my EFI running better, now that I have it running at all. Another resource for you might be the little 4-cylinder diesel engines in the Jeep Liberty, and perhaps others over there that use the same engine. They use (from what I understand) an identical flywheel/bellhousing setup. I haven't compared them up close and in person, though. The bell is the magic part, I think just about any 11" flywheel would do the trick.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/09/07 10:45 AM
Clair, do you think the 3.9 and the Diesel Bellhousings share the same P/N's? These parts in
used condition are really hard, would say impossible, to find here in germany. And new? Cant belive the price.... 4 digits w/o a dot in it!!!
My 904 gone down these days and I saw that my crank has the drilling for the pilot bearing. Good to now...
What Efi are you running? Think I can take advantage of your knowledge...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/09/07 12:05 PM
You'd have to check the PN's on the 3.9/diesel bells to see if they were the same. My only real concern with the Jeep diesel bell is that Jeeps frequently have the starter on the passenger side for space, but I don't know if the Liberty is the same as the Cherokee/Grand Cherokee in that respect.
My EFI is from a 1990-1992 Camaro Z-28, and I'm recalibrating it to like my 72 340 with cam, headers, etc. So far, it's very frustrating. Think of tuning a carb where you have to choose from an infinite quantity of jets, air bleeds, and emulsion tubes... Getting closer, but I'm not very patient...
Clair
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/10/07 01:31 AM
It appears that the CRD Jeep bell has the starter on the driver side like a "normal" car.I'd be surprised if it wasn't the same as the Dak part, but never say never, especially with the late Ma Mopar.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/10/07 10:27 AM
in Europe Jeep Cherokee 2.5 TD Italian made engine. Lets see...
Posted By: feets
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/10/07 01:04 PM
If you simply can't find the parts they can always be shipped over there. I know that's expensive but it can be done.
If I was planning on another trip over there, I'd carry them with me. I am overdue for the trip. My last visit was for the Grand Prix of Europe at the Ring in 2005.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/10/07 09:18 PM
duh, what a nice offer! Can you figure out what shipping would cost? Bell & flywheel?
If you are coming to europe/germany - let me know...
Posted By: Flo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/11/07 08:50 AM
Two friends of mine will come over in September... They might have some space in their suit cases too.
Greets
Flo
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/12/07 11:02 AM
Flo, if their suit are big as a trunk - would be great. Please ask them.
The other problem is that I still can NOT find any of these parts. Not in the States, not in Europe..... (bell, flywheel, hydr. clutch.)
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/07/07 09:03 PM
Hi Clair,
can you see by the picture if this bell fits?
Seller says 1997 3.9L V6 Dakota with all the conversion parts (for a Dakota tranny swap).
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/07/07 09:10 PM
I'm in september also in the states. Maryland & Pennsylvania... Which part of the states are your buddies are going to visit...?
Michael
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/08/07 02:30 AM
Quote:
Hi Clair,
can you see by the picture if this bell fits?
Seller says 1997 3.9L V6 Dakota with all the conversion parts (for a Dakota tranny swap).
That looks like the stuff. I think my bell is also from a 97 V6. The flywheel should work fine, as would the pressure plate, but the clutch disk will have a different spline than the Toyota disk. If you used the AX-15 trans, it would be a non-issue. The driveshaft yoke will also have a different spline, as far as I know. I'd have to do some searching to verify that the driveshaft yoke was the same spline as a 727 or 904, though. I'm not sure how Mopar handled that one. I've got an AX-15 in the garage, I guess I could check that one of these days...
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/08/07 07:07 AM
Clair, thanks for quik response. It took nearly a year to find these parts. I hope shipping to germany is not that expensive or the parts are not to heavy. I'm coming over in the states next month for my company and can take them home with me. But caused by the weight not all of the parts...
If nobody else is overbidding me I will let them ship to Carlisle where a buddy is located if shipping to germany is to expensive....
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/08/07 11:48 AM
The flywheel/clutch combo is going to be about 50#, the bellhousing about 10#, and the hydro clutch gear maybe 5#. If you can source the proper clutch disk and pressure plate locally, I'd skip shipping them - that would make the flywheel alone about 32-33#. "Normal" 10.5" clutches will bolt up to the V6 flywheel.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/23/07 08:23 PM
Clair,
I found some info's about "our" tranny:
toyo gear boxes
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/24/07 03:33 AM
Nice link, Buschi! Those "manuals" are pretty handy, but I think I'd like to get my hands on a real service manual before opening up my transmission. I think there's a service manual on the web somewhere, I've got a link I think. I'm hoping whoever opened my trans up previously installed the upgraded thrust washer... I'm going to run it as-is first. Not that I'm any closer to running the thing, but you know.
Clair
Posted By: 48Heap
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/24/07 07:09 PM
Quote:
Those "manuals" are pretty handy, but I think I'd like to get my hands on a real service manual before opening up my transmission. I think there's a service manual on the web somewhere, I've got a link I think.
Hey Clair, I've got a 1987 Toyota Supra factory manual. Let me know if I can help.
I plan on running mine "as-is", as well. I don't think my slant 6 is going to hurt it soon, so I'm not too worried.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/10/07 10:13 PM
Hi Clair,
I'm just at a local speedshop here in Hagerstown. And we are not pretty sure what Pilot bushings / bearings to choose.
Do you have correct measurements, descriptions or partnumbers on hand? I would appreciate a response as I ever do....
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/11/07 02:11 PM
Quote:
Hi Clair,
I'm just at a local speedshop here in Hagerstown. And we are not pretty sure what Pilot bushings / bearings to choose.
Do you have correct measurements, descriptions or partnumbers on hand? I would appreciate a response as I ever do....
Hey, Buschi,
Sorry for not getting back to you earlier, too much going on at home these days to spend as much time on Moparts as I'd like...
I don't have a PN on the Toyota pilot bushing/bearing. In fact, I don't know if it is a bearing OR a bushing. I was counting on making a bronze/oilite bushing from some bushing stock that would press in to the Mopar roller pilot bearing sleeve. Going from memory 
the sleeve for the Mopar roller pilot is about 1" DIA inside. The Toyota pilot shaft is small, though, APPROXIMATELY 0.454" . I would think that you could make a pretty durable bushing in that size, even in bronze/oilite.
Going over my old notes, which I wish were more complete, I show that the Toyota input shaft is 7-7/16" (7.438") long to the tip, and the pilot portion is about 0.75" long. I don't have the exact measurement in front of me, but I think I remember that the AX-15 Jeep/Dak bellhousing is about 1/2" deeper than a normal Mopar bellhousing (7-3/8"), so about 7-7/8" for the AX-15. That's what makes the pilot bushing issue "interesting". The crankshaft sticks out beyond the back of the engine block by 0.608" to the surface that the flywheel mounts to. The converter hub sticks out another 0.250", and that's what the roller bearing sleeve mounts in. The converter hub inside is 0.650" deep, and the roller pilot bearing sleeve is 0.560" thick, so you COULD press the sleeve in to the crank deeper than flush, but that's not useful to you or me.
I need to start mocking things up to see what's real, but *I THINK* that with the Mopar roller pilot bearing sleeve flush with the converter hub, there will be SOME engagement of the Toyota pilot shaft in to the pilot bearing sleeve. HOW MUCH, I'm not sure, as I put my spreadsheet together several months ago, and I need to rethink how I set up the formulas to make sure they make sense. If you can put an AX-15 bellhousing on a block, you can get some measurements to verify that depth, and then can compare them to the crankshaft measurements I have above, as I think those are good. Then it should be simple to see how well - or poorly - the input fits a stock roller bearing sleeve. Some simple machine work can make a bronze bushing, or a Toyota bushing/bearing might be made to work.
I'll try to get some more numbers tonight, I just made some space around my 318 mock-up block this weekend. Oh, and welcome to America! I hope you can find some good beer! 
Clair
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/12/07 03:23 AM
To make note of the edits for improved data in
RED above...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/12/07 10:37 PM
Hi Clair, this is what you wrote before. Now the Speedshop here gave advanced adapter a call and they told him that they never made something for especially a Toyota Turbo Supra. Is it possible that Toyota shares the splines with an other domestic Tranny for that you asked for? We have a problem with ordering than when we don't know exactly what iit is...
Quote:
Clutch - Advance Adapters makes a conversion clutch for the Toyota spline in a 10.5" diameter. It's not the most heavy-duty piece, but it's built for off-roading, so it's no slouch, and at $120, it's by far the cheapest option I've seen. Clair
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/12/07 10:41 PM
You might check with
Castlemain Rod Shop that is where I got my conversion bellhousing and assorted bits from
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/13/07 01:22 AM
Quote:
Hi Clair, this is what you wrote before. Now the Speedshop here gave advanced adapter a call and they told him that they never made something for especially a Toyota Turbo Supra. Is it possible that Toyota shares the splines with an other domestic Tranny for that you asked for? We have a problem with ordering than when we don't know exactly what iit is...
Here's the clutch disk on Summit Racing's web site. Says available Sept. 22, so you may want to try to get it from some other source, or directly from AA. I doubt that they specified Supra, but the spline count and shaft DIA are common in Toyotas. Best bet might be trying one of the offroad shops, as Toyota trucks get engine swaps very frequently for more power, but the drivetrains are usually left intact.
Here's a google search for PN 716105
And here it is on AA's own web site, for only a few pennies more than Summit.
Hopefully someone will have one for you. And me, too...
Clair
Posted By: dtedler
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/13/07 03:17 AM
Clair
please send me another e-mail. I have a drawing that you can use to figure out your application depths with. By the way, I would look at a roller pilot bearing because of the small diameter of the input pilot. Let me know if I can be of any help.
Tony Edler
Classic Mopar 5 Speed
tony@cms-grp.com
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/20/07 11:12 PM
Thx Clair,
got it. Have it in my hands right now. 140,- bucks net.
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/21/07 02:47 AM
Tony,
I'm not sure what kind of bearing/bushing the Toyota uses, but I'll contact you to bounce some ideas off of you when I get a little more info in hand. I'd like to see the drawing you have, as I'm always happy to benefit from someone else's hard work...
Buschi, are you back across the pond? I hope you had a good visit, and were able to sort out some of your swap issues while you were here. Looks like I'm going to start gearing up for some progress here, too, although baby steps at first. Got my engine dolly modified so I could mount the trans to the rear of it and mock up some parts for real. This will be good.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 10/18/07 05:41 PM
Clair,
had a great stay! Looking forward to the next trip, hopfully next year....
How do you think to mount the odometer, speedometer?
I forgot to buy the bearing/bushings for the pilot and pressure plate... me dummy!
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/12/08 09:09 PM
Hi Clair,
I hope you had a great
!
Any news on your swap? I'm starting these days practically.
The speedo cable connection question is still unclear. And new is how do think to mount the tranny. What kinda transmission mount?
I just received a stock 4speed pedal setup from a 70 Dart. Now I'm thinking about how to connect the clutch master cylinder (system from the Dakota) to the pedal I have...
Looking forward to hear from you soon....
Michael
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/13/08 03:51 AM
Hey, Michael,
Sorry for not getting back to you on this earlier - it's been busy around here for the last few months! I think there's a speedo port on the trans, and somewhere I've seen an adapter for the Toyota trans to a more common speedo cable. I'm not on my normal computer, so I can't check my favorites to find the link right now. I'll see what I can find and post back, but I'm pretty sure there's a way to use the mechanical speedo with this trans. I've been concentrating on the electronic speedo for my swap, but I've seen both.
Not much progress on my end, but I have been experimenting with a different bellhousing setup. Need to find the proper starter motor to see if it fits the 10.5" clutch I have as an option.
Hope all's well over there, and I'll post what I find.
Clair
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/14/08 03:19 AM
OK, here's what I'm finding on the speedo cable situation... going back again to the catalog at
Castlemain Rod Shop, they show a cable that SHOULD adapt to a late Mopar clip-on like yours (SC2), or an early screw-on unit (SC1). The SC1 SHOULD also work on aftermarket speedos like Auto Meter as well. I don't think I want to order one from Australia, as there MUST be SOME local shop that can build a cable for me/us.
Another source (more local to me, at least) is
Jags That Run / Stealth Conversions. They have a couple options for speedo adapters and Vehicle Speed Sensors. Might be worth a call/email to see if they can source a cable, too, but it might not make a difference if their adapter will let you hook your cable up directly.
Hope this helps...
Clair
Posted By: 48Heap
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/01/08 01:45 AM
Hey Clair, if memory serves, you were concerned about the length of the Toyota yoke. Correct?
Reason I ask is Greg posted a clip from some other forum with an aftermarket yoke part number on slantsix.org, so I've been doing some research. Part number doesn't match with anything but I did track something down to a manufacturer in Australia (Hardy Spicer).
Long story short, it doesn't appear that the spline engagement is much shorter than a Turbo 400 yoke (per the manufacture’s info) at 4.530" vs. 4.685".
Part # posted was 3-3-3558. Best I can tell, the part # should have been 21R-3-3558, but that is for a 23 spline yoke and the R154 has a 21 spline output shaft. They show two part #'s (2R-3-3188 and 21R-3-3208) for Toyota 5 speeds with 21 splines. In theory (per the forum clip) one of these would allow a larger 1350 u-joint, but the numbers I found for the 21R stuff shows a u-joint cap diameter of 1.078" which is much smaller than 1350 u-joint cap. The 2R stuff was even smaller at 1".
Just some more info, thought I would share.
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/01/08 02:48 AM
I was concerned, but I think I've about come to the conclusion that the Toyota yoke will probably be OK. The 'Yota yoke is splined for it's whole length, and that turns out to be almost the same as the splined portion of a 904 yoke, too. I need to research those goodies, though, because I'd rather be SURE a part is right than just hope... At least at this stage of the game...
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/01/08 09:55 PM
last week I asked a Toyota dealer on this. There are 3 yokes available. 2 for the 5speed, 1 for the Auto. All are similar or the same. They couldn't tell me the difference except in the p/n. I bought a used driveshaft last week and will receive it tomorrow. I can measure it if you want. Or post a pic.
Clair, a problem is that the Tranny won't pass the old transmission mounting. You have to modify it or cut it out and build a new one.
And in my eyes the input shaft is approx. 5mm too short. I will let the Bellhousing be machined (where the Tranny is mounted)...
I have test-fitted it but I don't have the pilot bearing yet.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/04/08 08:42 PM
here is another website about the R154 I just found:
manual r154
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/04/08 11:37 PM
Here's a pic why I'm a bit concerned about the tranny cross member. I need apprx. 1" more space, thats the half of the member. I don't want to cut it out complete because of the stability of the chassis. On the pic you can see the driver side of the tail housing. The front of the tranny is on the left.
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/05/08 03:39 AM
Yeah, I didn't think there was any way that fatty of a transmission was just going to sneak in to the car without a little torch work. I'm actually a little surprised that it's only an inch you need, and I bet you could easily recreate that much by putting it on the top side of the existing x-member and boxing it up. That's pretty much how I planned on doing things, and just building a new x-member around the trans once I got it where it needed to be for driveshaft angles. Speaking of, how did you handle that aspect of the swap? Did you build some sort of jig to recreate the driveshaft yoke location, or just measure from a few spots on the floor?
Nice to see someone making some progress for a change. I've got a couple details on another option I'll post up as soon as I get everything uploaded to my web pages. Takes photos to show what's going on...
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/05/08 08:48 PM
I measured the yoke to floor. 7.5cm.
I hope that some notches in the torsionbar X-member will be good enought.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/07/08 05:20 PM
Clair,
whats your opion about shorten the Bell on the tranny side approx. 5mm to get the input shaft more into the pilot bearing? I think its better than make a custom bushing which comes more out of the bearing hole. Don't yo think?
about the x-member I don't even have a solution yet. I saw some pics in the Net from cars which have this member cutted out completly. Builded professionaly....
I don't think that this is that good. Maybe I open the tunnel and widen the member a bit. Welding is not a problem....
Posted By: 48Heap
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/11/08 02:52 AM
Here's what my crossmember looks like so far.
I made sure the centerline of the motor was parallel to the centerline of the car and made a reasonable attempt to get the carb mounting area level to the car/ground.
Your car will probably differ as I have an adapter plate pushing the trans back (don't know how the depth of your bell compares to mine) and I am working on a very early A-Body.
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/11/08 01:07 PM
Hey, Buschi,
Sorry for the late reply, I've been fighting computer problems lately and didn't see the new post on my favorites list...
I need to check my numbers again, but I don't remember thinking that I needed an extended pilot bushing. Even if I did, I don't think I'd worry too much about though. As long as the trans is reasonably well centered, the pilot should see very little if any loads. I'll see if I can find my calculations again. That'll take some work, as we recently converted our "office" in to a room for our second kiddo that's arriving in May. I need to find all my stuff again...
Dion,
That is one battleship of a trans X-member! Looks great!
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/11/08 08:54 PM
Dion, thats a really strong one.
Clair, I made some pics as well. The inputshaft is just 10mm into the bushing/bearing. The first 5mm of the shaft has a chamfer (correct word?) so no contact here.
At all, for me is the point of no return reached...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/11/08 08:55 PM
next:
no clutch and pilot at this point...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/12/08 04:54 AM
(still haven't found my notes...)
Seems like you could have a pilot bearing sleeve made up like the Mopar unit, but with a nose on it to support the OEM Toyota roller bearing. Ought to be easy work for any machine shop, especially if you have the Mopar bearing/sleeve to use as a go-by.
I guess you could mill the bellhousing as long as there is sufficient material there to support the loads after the job. I'm not a materials guy, so I don't know what the possibilities of that option really are.
Sure looks like you're making some good progress, though. I need to get some more info on my swap in the near future. The last few months have been nothing but parts chasing...
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 02/12/08 02:07 PM
I already bought the Mopar Bearing at local chrysler dealer. Thanks god that I had the p/n's, they wouldn't find anything...
I thought I buy it for reference and build a new and longer one with a bearing which fits the Toyota input shaft.
I think machining the bell 2-3mm on both sides wouldn't hurt the stability.
Clair, if you are still chaising - pls chase the speedo cable for me...
Is it possible to install a centerforce dual friction? Or is Centerforce2 good enought (theoretically).
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/13/08 09:46 PM
2 pics from my process. Built a new torsion bar x-member. Took the old, cut out and in peaces, wided, welded in and boxed....
(a lot more than expected)
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/13/08 09:47 PM
2nd pic
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/13/08 09:50 PM
thats how the tunnel looks now with new metal covered...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/13/08 09:54 PM
now I'm at the stage 48heap already did. Connecting the Supra tranny mount with the original transmission x - member. Or going a different way? I'm not sure, need advice....
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/13/08 10:03 PM
Clair,
a question about the throwout bearing. I have an old one which I received with the Bell housing and clutch parts from the Dakota. I put it on the input shaft and recognized a little side play. About 1-2mm. Is it ok or too much? It looks a little loose to me...
Ok, another one. Can I use the original Dakota Bearing with a Centerforce Dual Friction Pressure Plate? I got one from a friend...
BTW, my propellershaft is 5cm (2") too short now...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/14/08 02:18 AM
Quote:
Clair,
a question about the throwout bearing. I have an old one which I received with the Bell housing and clutch parts from the Dakota. I put it on the input shaft and recognized a little side play. About 1-2mm. Is it ok or too much? It looks a little loose to me...
Ok, another one. Can I use the original Dakota Bearing with a Centerforce Dual Friction Pressure Plate? I got one from a friend...
BTW, my propellershaft is 5cm (2") too short now...
Wow, Buschi, you're making great progress! I've really got to get back on the ball out in the garage, but it'll probably have to wait a bit longer. Our 2nd kiddo arrived a couple weeks early (April 21), so things have been a little crazy around here lately... I have done a couple little things, so I'll add a second post to keep them separate from this.
Throwout bearing. What bearing retainer are you using - the Toyota or Dakota? For the Dak TOB to work, you need the Dak bearing retainer. The Toyota TOB is a totally different design as I'm sure you know, so I don't think it would be easy to adapt. However, the Dak throwout lever is pretty simple, so MAYBE it could be adapted without much effort. If you don't have the Dak bearing retainer, let me know as I have to get one also - the parts trans I have has a crack in the retainer and I'd rather not risk using it.
Clutch. The stock Dakota clutch is the diaphragm type, so I don't know why you couldn't use the CFDF pressure plate. Does CF make a 10.5" clutch with the Toyota spline count? I think the truck part may be something like 10-3/8" DIA, which would be close enough for me, I think.
Driveshaft. I'm surprised that the driveshaft needs that much changing. A 904 and 833 are very close to the same length, and I really felt that the Toyota and 833 were very close to the same as well. I guess that means I shouldn't get a new driveshaft now and hope that it'll fit the Toyota as well...
Thanks for the update, I was going to email you today just to see how things were coming along. Strange.
Clair
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/14/08 03:29 AM
Minimal progress, but still some.
For a while, I've been tinkering with some Jeep Liberty parts to adapt the Toyota R-154 transmission rather than the Dakota parts (bellhousing, starter, flywheel, etc) because the Jeep Liberty parts are more compact. My thinking was that the smaller parts would be happier living with the TTI headers & such. The Libby bellhousing uses a 10.4?" clutch and a flywheel essentially the same size as the 130-tooth old-school flywheel, but it appears to have 131teeth. AND, the bigger deal seems to be that the flywheel ring gear is located about 1/2" closer to the block than on the older engines. I found this out after bolting up my old 130-tooth FW and noting that the unique Liberty starter motor wouldn't reach the ring gear.
So, in a nutshell, I've got all these Liberty parts that will physically bolt the Toyota trans up to my 340, and I'm seeing what it's going to take to get a flywheel that makes the whole shebang work. If it's going to take a custom billet flywheel to do the job, the Liberty parts go on eBay and I'll pick up where I left off with the Dakota parts I have stashed. If I can get a FW with the right offset on the ring gear for a reasonable price, it'll be another option for folks who want to do this swap with mostly factory parts.
Clair
Posted By: Jerry
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/14/08 10:25 AM
why not get a stock flywheel redrilled for the smaller clutch? basically all your adding is the 6 holes that bolt on the clutch if i'm understanding this correctly. if its too hard to drill, the flywheel can be EDM, this may not be a really cheap option but with minimal effort you could try it.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/14/08 11:09 AM
Clair,
Liberty stuff wouldn't work here. I tryed to purchase small parts like the pilot bearing and TO Bearing at our local chrysler / dodge dealer. No luck, no stock, extraordinary prices. F.e. the TOB = 144.00 USD, a new dakota flywheel = >1300.00 USD...
Liberty market is same small over here..
So the Dakota way is more simple but nothing for "just bolt in" guys.
Anyway, I'm using the release fork from the Dakota. But I'm a lil' bit concerned about the play on the shaft.
And I'm looking forward to build this tankstyle x-member. Or do you have a better idea??
Btw, congrats for your newborn. Hope everything is fine!
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/14/08 02:32 PM
Quote:
why not get a stock flywheel redrilled for the smaller clutch? basically all your adding is the 6 holes that bolt on the clutch if i'm understanding this correctly. if its too hard to drill, the flywheel can be EDM, this may not be a really cheap option but with minimal effort you could try it.
Jerry,
The clutch isn't really the issue, it's the flywheel ring gear located differently on the Libby flywheel versus the LA flywheel. With an LA flywheel bolted to the crank, the starter bendix won't reach the ring gear teeth because the ring gear is too far back. I bought a Liberty flex plate that was cheap and available vs. a Libby flywheel which was expensive, unavailable, and useless, and the teeth appear to line up properly. NOTE: The center hub is exactly the same as old Mopar engines.
So, I need to see if an LA flywheel can be put together with the ring gear located in the Libby position, a little over 1 ring gear width closer to the block than stock LA. My stock LA FW's have a little step machined to hold the ring gear in place, not enough to push the ring gear forward enough to work. I'm hoping that maybe an aftermarket flywheel will have a deeper step, OR, maybe the guys at RAM/McCleod/Whoever can make one for not a lot of extra bucks.
Clair
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/14/08 02:40 PM
Quote:
Clair,
Liberty stuff wouldn't work here. I tryed to purchase small parts like the pilot bearing and TO Bearing at our local chrysler / dodge dealer. No luck, no stock, extraordinary prices. F.e. the TOB = 144.00 USD, a new dakota flywheel = >1300.00 USD...
Liberty market is same small over here..
So the Dakota way is more simple but nothing for "just bolt in" guys.
Anyway, I'm using the release fork from the Dakota. But I'm a lil' bit concerned about the play on the shaft.
And I'm looking forward to build this tankstyle x-member. Or do you have a better idea??
Btw, congrats for your newborn. Hope everything is fine!
Thanks for the congrats, Little Sam is doing just fine. His older brother is driving us nuts, though... 
Those are crazy prices for those parts... it's like they're foreign cars or something... Oh, yeah, Daimler's gone now so they ARE foreign cars again...
FWIW, the Libby setup consists of:
Unique bellhousing (no starter locating pocket)
Unique starter motor (short nose)
Unique block plate to locate starter
Unique flywheel (131-tooth, 8-bolt, 10.5" clutch)
The TOB lever is exactly the same as the Dakota part, so I'm guessing that the TOB is also. I strongly suspect that the clutch slave cylinder is also identical, but I haven't verified this yet. The master/slave cylinders are going to be some of the last parts I buy so I can sort out what fits best. Have you checked to see how the Dakota slave cylinder fits against the floor pan?
No advice yet on the x-member, but it looks like you're on the right track. I'm not sure how to do it much different than you or Heap are doing. Big is good if it's strong...
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/14/08 03:20 PM
Quote:
Have you checked to see how the Dakota slave cylinder fits against the floor pan?
no, but now I will check today...
Quote:
No advice yet on the x-member, but it looks like you're on the right track. I'm not sure how to do it much different than you or Heap are doing. Big is good if it's strong...
Problem here in Germany is that you can't do what you want. Only original parts are allowed. So it has to look like a 1972 original part (maybe with small upgrades, but only small) Thats what I'm concerned about. I have to let the car checked from officials every 2 years. If something not right they take the car from the streets...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/14/08 07:36 PM
The slave cylinder fits. There is 1" space to the floor...
Clair, can you do me a favor? I only need the TOB from the US. Can you buy me the TOB from a local store or summit? I can send the money for part and freightage via paypal before you buy. Is this possible? I know that we don't know each other but you know what I need...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/14/08 08:28 PM
Sure,
I'll send you a PM this evening when I get home.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/14/08 08:58 PM
great, thanks a lot.
If you need something special from Germany - let me know..
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/19/08 01:51 PM
OK, here's a small update on what I found looking at the trans this weekend. Primarily, this has to do with the speedometer output on the trans. Note, this is specific to the R154 AFAIK, and may or may not apply to the other "W-series" transmissions that Toyota used from this same trans family. There are two outputs on the trans, an analog for a mechanical speedometer, and an electronic for the VSS signal to the ECM (of the Toyota Supra). Since I hadn't really paid attention to this system before, as I was banking on just using the VSS output with an electronic speedo and as a feed to my EFI. Well, on a whim, I pulled the speedo pinion adapter (similar to good old Mopar stuff), and lo and behold, the threads appear to match the Mopar cable's big end:
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/19/08 02:01 PM
That was pretty cool to see. The only down side is that when the big-end "nut" is seated, it doesn't hold the cable super tight like you might expect. I would guess a thick washer on the inside of the "nut" would do the trick and keep it water tight. That may not even be an issue.
What IS going to be an issue is the difference in the speedo pinion output. Typical Mopars are square-drive, something close to 1/10" or so. The Toyota is round, with a keyway cut in to the output end of the pinion. See pic below for details... Since the Toyota pinion output is MUCH larger than the Mopar output, adapting the Mopar cable should be pretty easy. What I'm guessing is that you can cut off the drive end of the Toyota cable, drill out their cable part, slip in the Mopar cable end, and either JBWeld/Braze/Tackweld the Toyota end on. If this is the case, it looks like some very simple surgery would let you use your stock (or a stock-type) speedometer cable on the Toyota transmission and get on with life.
Clair
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/21/08 04:28 PM
Found this and thought it might be useful for the R154 project.
http://www.conversioncomp.co.nz/products.php?which=35&return=14
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/22/08 02:08 AM
Quote:
Found this and thought it might be useful for the R154 project.
http://www.conversioncomp.co.nz/products.php?which=35&return=14
Hehe... I've seen that one before, and I think the exchange rate was much better. Just the kit, no trans, is nearly $3900 now. When it's done, you've still got the clutch fork on the wrong side of the bell... Oh, well.
Clair
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/22/08 01:49 PM
I was thinking it might be a solution for the speedo cable problem if they will sell that part separately.
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/22/08 02:03 PM
Ah, good point. I know that Castlemain Rod Shop in Australia sells a specific cable, but it might well cost $100US after shipping/duties/paperwork is done. I haven't really pursued any conversion parts from AUS/NZ because of those issues, even though this swap is pretty common down under.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/25/08 09:43 PM
back to the process.
Built a custom tranny x member.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/25/08 09:45 PM
needs paint for a "stock look". Mandatory for our officials here in germany.
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/27/08 01:07 AM
Looks nice! Is that large flat piece with the 4 small and 1 large hole part of the Supra transmission mount? A coat of black paint should make that look very much factory.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/27/08 04:26 PM
the flat piece of steel I did find in my metal junk. The Toyota piece I used as a template...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/28/08 09:22 PM
here is my small problem with the space in an A-Body. The Dakota m/c is very close to the inner Fender...
The white circle is the place where it should be mounted.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/28/08 09:25 PM
This is the Dakota m/c. It is a "one piece set", the lines are made of plastic and pressed on.
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/28/08 09:38 PM
Ah, so it's the Dak part that points down, and the Jeep Liberty part that is straight out. Both should have the same piston size, since they both use the same clutch lever inside the bellhousing. The Libby part MAY work easier, but you'd have to mount it up next to the brake MC, and space there might get tight.
Question... isn't there a hole in your firewall with a large plug where the OEM A-body clutch pushrod goes? Seems like if there isn't a hole/plug, there should be a depression stamped in the sheet metal that shows the right spot. That seems different than where your circle-X is shown. I'll try to dig up a pic of my stock setup...
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/28/08 10:01 PM
maybe this is better. They circle is near a hole which was plugged with a rubber. I routed my starter cable thru this...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/29/08 12:18 PM
Ah yes, that's the plug. On the original MT cars, a small rubber boot goes over the hole and the clutch pedal rod goes through there to the torque shaft (z-bar). If you can get the MC lined up with that hole, it should be nearly ideal. I need to look at another Dakota to see if the angle makes sense. I hope that the pushrod on the MC is long enough to reach the clutch pedal. I also hope that the clutch pedal provides enough stroke to activate the slave properly, but not so much that we need to put a stop on the pedal...
Clair
Posted By: 48Heap
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/29/08 07:28 PM
Quote:
back to the process.
Built a custom tranny x member.
Very nice. I see a lot of similarities, but I like your's better.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/29/08 09:47 PM
Quote:
Very nice. I see a lot of similarities, but I like your's better.
Thanks a lot!
Quote:
I also hope that the clutch pedal provides enough stroke to activate the slave properly, but not so much that we need to put a stop on the pedal...
both is not a problem, requires just a new bolt on the pedal for the M/C rod.
I'm more concerned about the space in the engine bay. I don't want to cut the fender. But if I have to... Maybe I can turn the m/c a bit in 1 o'clock position....
Will try Sunday, tomorrow I receive my probshaft with the Toyota Yoke.
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/30/08 03:20 AM
Maybe a
2nd Gen Viper MC from McLeod?? Looks like it needs a couple details, but it's straight - and Mopar-ish...
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/30/08 10:18 PM
m/c is in (but not connected yet). There was a "little" denting requiered.
the m/c rod is in deed to short, Clair. But I'm gonna fix this tommorrow.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/30/08 10:18 PM
another... maybe a stupid question but how do you bleed this???
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/31/08 02:48 AM
I don't know what you can do - if anything - to bleed that master/slave. Looks like a nice install, though. Very factory looking, nice and clean. I need to go out to the salvage yard again and see if I can find a decent mock-up part for my swap. I'm curious to see how you handle the extra length on the push rod.
Clair
Posted By: 48Heap
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/31/08 04:35 AM
My bet is it is self bleeding, just pump it until it works.
But that's just my guess.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/31/08 09:55 AM
hm, and how do you change the fluid? There is no outlet...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/31/08 09:58 AM
Clair, I'm welding a bracket on the Pedal today with a new mountig point for the pushrod. I'll show it to you when done...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 05/31/08 03:20 PM
it is very important to find the right angle to make sure that the pushrod goes the whole way ... as pivot I used a M10 Bolt, welded in..
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 06/02/08 10:01 PM
aaah, server is up again so I can continue with spamming pics...
Pedal Assy is in again.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 06/02/08 10:02 PM
another one...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 06/02/08 10:09 PM
ok, I had a little time while waiting for clutch parts so I took care of the shifter. I had an old Hurst stick which I welded on the cutted Toyo stick.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 06/02/08 10:12 PM
first pic is in second gear. Pretty close to the bench, huh?
This one is in first gear...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 06/02/08 10:15 PM
ok, this one shold be the last (for today). It is the driveshaft. The slipyoke, joint and front part of the shaft is stock Toyota. Welded on the Dodge Shaft....
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 06/03/08 03:07 AM
Looks just about perfect to me - as long as the shifter isn't hitting the seat or the dash, it's doing well. The shifter throw appears to be nice and short, as you'd suspect from a modern transmission.
Nice work, Michael!
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 06/26/08 11:34 PM
The only way to get rid of air in the system is a complete diassembly...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 06/26/08 11:43 PM
thats how it looks now. Clutch is in, Tranny is bolted on so far. I have to check the hydraulic now...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/02/08 09:47 PM
Clair,
the issue with the Header - Starter clearence is a nightmare for me. I have all in and isolated the Starter but I had to dent a Headertube to the half of diameter. And there is maybe just 5mm airgap between them. With the wrap on the Starter they are touching. But I will give it a try.
There is defenitly no room now for Headers.
A Buddy gave me a set of 2002 318 Magnum exhaust manifolds. Have you had a thought on them? Are they any good instead of my Cheapo headders? what do you think?
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/02/08 09:58 PM
from below:
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/02/08 09:59 PM
magnum Manifolds:
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/03/08 12:35 AM
Are you using the mini-starter from the Magnum trucks and late cars, or the full size? I found the mini starter (Nipondenso) to actually sit a little wider than the larger starter, so that may help. There is also another starter out there that can be clocked to fit better... RobMc? I need to look for details on that one again.
This is really the worst case scenario for me, as I can't tolerate modifying my TTI's, so I need to find a work-around for this.
I'm not sure about the Maggie manifolds, it looks like the driver side will have some interference with the steering column. I've never tried them though, but even they look like the down pipe or head pipe will have to be fairly crushed to fit as well. Worth investigating, I guess, but it doesn't look promising.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/03/08 07:49 AM
Clair, this is already the Ministarter (Nippon Denso)...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/03/08 07:55 AM
Do you have a large-case / old starter to test with? I think the older starters fit closer to the block.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/03/08 09:19 AM
No. Only one in 1000 pieces.
But I can not imagine that this is working. You have the axle of the starter in the center and a larger body. How can this be closer to the block on the exhaust side?
(when do you sleep - isn't it 4 in the morning???)
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/03/08 11:57 AM
So, the header is hitting the starter body, not the solenoid? Hmmm... Not good. I couldn't tell exactly what was going on in the photos. I'll have to see if I can round up a large starter in my stash, but I don't have an extra ND starter to compare to. The Liberty starter I have is a totally different design, so not much use there - although it is a tiny little starter.
Sleep? I've got a 2.5 month old, and I get the 2-3am feeding. It's when I get caught up on my car shows on the DVR...
Clair
Posted By: dtedler
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/03/08 12:53 PM
I've been watching this post for quite some time and I have to ask, why the stock dakota m/c? Did you look at the aftermarket items from tilton or ram. The tilton TO bearing is expensive but the master's are really reasonable and allows you to mount the unit up high near the booster in the a-bodies. Keep up the great work and I can't wait to here the results when the car is on the road.
Tony
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/03/08 02:04 PM
Speaking primarily for myself, but I ASSume that Michael is of a similar mind, using OEM parts is attractive from a reliability and ease-of-replacement standpoint. There is also a cost issue, particularly for Michael, since it's tough or prohibitively expensive to get some parts in Germany.
I'm not opposed to using the Tilton parts if I can get them to do what I need them to do, but I probably won't look too close at them until I get the system functional or run in to a wall trying.
Clair
Posted By: Greg55_99
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/17/08 11:52 AM
Buschi,
Can you give a list of all of the parts required for this swap. That would really be helpful. Excellent work!
Greg
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/18/08 07:25 PM
Just joined to throw some info your way. R154s are VERY tough transmissions, there are some Supra guys making over 1000rwhp on stock trannies over on SupraMania and SupraForums. Obviously a high HP turbo car is different than a high HP V8, but it should still hold what most of you folks want it to. Just some food for though, YMMV
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/18/08 08:18 PM
Quote:
Buschi,
Can you give a list of all of the parts required for this swap. That would really be helpful. Excellent work!
Greg
sure I can but everything is discussed here I think.
I will do it after test driving, I won't provide informations for a swap which is not complete or won't work well.
Ok?
Ok, next problem:
My X pipe does not fit anymore. The Tranny is longer and the X too close to the x-member. They hit. But this is just simple work - but work...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/18/08 09:33 PM
FYI, I'm still working on getting the speedo cables for us, just haven't had time to get away from work at all. I'm hoping to get out to the place next week...
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/18/08 09:49 PM
did you found the dustcover too?
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/18/08 11:16 PM
Nope, I forgot about that part completely. I'll dig through those emails and find the PN again... I'm guessing it won't be too expensive...
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/19/08 06:10 PM
no, not that expensive. Around 35.00 USD or so...
Posted By: Bzzzz
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/25/08 01:58 PM
interesting!
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 07/26/08 05:03 PM
He Clair, been out today for a testdrive... and it works so far. Drove only 2-3 miles.
On the first drive the clutch sliped horrible so I shortened the pushrod on the Slave approx 1 cm. Too much! So I welded 0.5 cm back on - perfect.
The test will be Autobahn. Lets see what happens then.
But so far everything works good (for 2 mls...)
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/04/08 04:19 PM
Clair,
been out to the german Mopar Nationals.
The Conversion is worth every dime. Runs great on Autobahn, very good pedal feel (and popo-meter), Fuelsaver (less then 12L / 100km @ 120 km/h / 2700rpm). At 3000rpm the cars runs 135km/h.
at the Nationals we had a race on the airport. I took a few small videos with my camera:
same run filmed by audience:
http://www.mopartube.de/videodetails.php?key=32d75fe70ae04541747eLink to the nationals:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=w8TD98tPhLIhttp://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie2cQB4Yo8sNow I need to make the car faster....
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/04/08 05:27 PM
FYI, Anyone wanting to mate a small block Mopar engine to a late model trans needs to talk to this guy:
Peter Willie
2470 Seanine Drive
Victoria, BC, Canada
V9B 4Y1
250-474-2980
Pwille50@shaw.caNot only is he a dedicated Mopar man, he is an absalute transmission genius! (auto or manual, modern or vintage). I just visited him last week, he has a small block A-body 5 speed project in his shop right now and really scienced out all the bugs, it's a slick deal let me tell you!
*He also drives a sick SS/A (that's a 4 speed Race Hemi A-body!)
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/04/08 05:29 PM
Oh, and a bonus, his shop is, organized, and clean to the level of Adrian Monk!
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/09/08 06:17 PM
Clair,
received yesterday the package. Thanks so much!
Everything is working. Don't know what the Tacho reads, but it works..
The Shield needed indeed minor grinding on the holes for the Starter. But not that much that it would be visible...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/10/08 01:59 AM
Quote:
Clair,
received yesterday the package. Thanks so much!
Everything is working. Don't know what the Tacho reads, but it works..
The Shield needed indeed minor grinding on the holes for the Starter. But not that much that it would be visible...
Fan-TASTIC!! Glad that stuff made it in just fine, and again I'm amazed how fast you get the parts on the car. You even painted the dust cover, but left the PN sticker exposed to draw attention away from the fabricated parts...
Now if I can just get motivated to get out in the garage and work in this 100-108* weather we've been having lately. About all I can get motivated for at the moment is lifting a nice big, cold beer...
Posted By: 69Cuda340S
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/10/08 02:34 AM
Please provide a list of parts for the swap when you get a chance. Thanks.
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/10/08 03:46 AM
Buschi and I are approaching it slightly differently, but the majority of the parts will be the same.
Bellhousing, clutch slave/master cylinder, pressure plate, flywheel, bearing retainer from a 93-?? Dakota V-6 with the AX-15 5-speed trans
Transmission, shifter, driveshaft yoke from a 1988-1992 Toyota Supra Turbo
Custom clutch disc (Advance Adapters = $120, RAM = $250)
Custom pilot bearing (or input shaft sleeve)
Custom speedo cable
Custom hole in floorpan
Custom Trans X-member
Modified clutch pedal
Those are the items I can think of off the top of my head. The thread really shows a lot of the effort that went in to the swap for Buschi (I haven't done mine yet), and we'll just have to put some effort in to collecting all the PN's and such.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/10/08 03:46 PM
Thats all on parts...
You need to weld a new Torsionbar x-member.
And you can see above and on previous pictures that you will have problems with the exhaust system.
Clair, this car is now a good car for driving every day. And saving 2 L gas on 100km is a good effect too.
Man, I love what we did...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 08/10/08 08:03 PM
So just what mileage were you getting before/after? 2L/100km improvement is pretty big! That's a big part of why we did/are doing this after all, so a significant improvement in economy makes the swap a lot nicer. I'd like to get over 20mpg (11.5L/100km), and I think that should be achievable.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/05/08 09:39 PM
so, at all I drove maybe 600 miles the last weeks. And I love it - especially on the Autobahn...
This is what my Speedo compared to the Navigation system reads:
km/h (mls/h Orig Speedo) .......... km/h (mls/h) Navi.
45 (28) .......... 50 (31)
55 (34 ) .......... 70 (44)
85 (53) .......... 100 (62)
100 (62) .......... 120 (75)
are there speedo gears with different gear ratios on the market (Toyota)?
Posted By: kick_the_reverb
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/05/08 09:52 PM
Don't forget that every competant speedo shop (and I'm sure there are some in Germany) can make a correction adapter in case there are no stock speedo gears for this application.
Good luck,
Ran
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/06/08 03:04 AM
Looks like the speedo adapter/converter may be the only way around this situation. From "f00g00" on Toyota Supra Forums:
Quote:
More news about the gears.
The MKII could have several gearing systems inside. You need to pull the output gear to find out what you have in yours.
The two gears offered inside the transmission that drive the output gear are 10 or 11 teeth shaped like a worm gear. There are different part numbers for the #10 gear in the supras but only one number for the #11.
There should be 2 numbers on the bottom of the plastic output gear such as 11 on top and 33 on the bottom of the bottom, or 10 on the top and 31 on the bottom of the bottom.
If yours says 11 33 then your screwed as far as changing the output gear.
The 11 33 is the same as the R154 transmission and its the only combo offered anywhere in the world.
The 10 and # offers more choices. There are combos of 10 35, 10 32, 10 31 for the 87-92 supra for the W58 twincam and for the Celica-Supra the choices are 11 33, 10 32, 10 31 for the W58 transmission and earlier 81-83 models had a 6 21 but Im not sure which transmission that is for.
If your is the 11 33 then the only option is to have a shop change the gear inside to a 10 that coincides with the matching output gear and see which one works for you or go to a speedo calibration shop and maybe they can put a ratio changer outside the transmission and change it that way.
Part numbers for the different items are as follows:
Plastic output gears with #10 metal gear combos.
Plastic output gear Metal drive gear
#31 33403-29145 #10 33481-22030
#32 33403-29125 #10 33481-22030
#35 33403-19235 #10 33481-14031
plastic output gear for #11 metal gear
#33 33403-29115 #11 33481-14071 (R154 8808-9305)
I just had a shop install the #11 with the 33 plastic in my W58 and my speedo is reading a little fast. I am going to do side by side comparisons with another car to see how far off it is but Im guessing about 7-8 mph fast.
I have the 3.91 LHD on my car and am running 225 55 ZR 16 tires. My odometer is fast about 2/10ths in 4 miles.
I guess keep that GPS working in the near term...
Clair
Posted By: Greg55_99
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/08/08 06:37 PM
I know I'm stretching here, but have you guys looked into the speedo gears for the 2WD Dodge Dakota, Jeep or Toyota?
Greg
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/10/08 03:18 AM
Greg,
I haven't compared both yet, but here's photo of the 154 piece I took a couple pages back:
It appears that it has some eccentricity to it like the Mopar, but I was thinking that the AX-15 unit was close to the same size/shape as the older Mopar units. I've got both out in the garage, just need to find time to get out there and compare.
Clair
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/11/08 03:57 AM
On update... the 154 speedo pinion adapter does NOT have any eccentricity to it, so there's probably not much that can be done about changing ratios. Interestingly, a Mopar speedo pinion slips right in to the 154 adapter and fits like it grew there. The tiny lip seal even fits the Mopar like it should, and the overall length is about right, too.
HOWEVER, the big deal is that the 154 speedo adapter is on the pass side, and the Mopar/AX-15 is on the driver side, so the pitch of the two gears are opposite. That means that even though with some surgery you probably COULD swap pinion gears around, the teeth won't mesh. And, without some eccentricity to the adapter, you couldn't adjust pinion gears with diameters different than the one that came stock.
So, what is it going to take to get a non-adapted accurate speedometer reading? Obviously, the tires and rear gears need to be the same - not an easy trick. Tires on a stock MKIII Supra Turbo were 225/50-16's (24.86" tall), and rear gears were (apparently) 3.7, 3.9, or 4.3:1. Yikes. Short tires AND low gears. With only one gear on the speedo pinion, I'm not sure how the speedo was calibrated. Seems like it could be done with the ECM, but I'm pretty sure that the speedo was mechanical on this series of cars. Can't say for sure, though.
Other thoughts?
Clair
Posted By: Greg55_99
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/11/08 02:02 PM
OK, last idea and I'm fresh out. What speedo gears are available for the Toyota truck R150\R151 2WD versions?
Greg
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/13/08 10:20 AM
Quote:
so, at all I drove maybe 600 miles the last weeks. And I love it - especially on the Autobahn...
This is what my Speedo compared to the Navigation system reads:
km/h (mls/h Orig Speedo) .......... km/h (mls/h) Navi.
45 (28) .......... 50 (31)
55 (34 ) .......... 70 (44)
85 (53) .......... 100 (62)
100 (62) .......... 120 (75)
120 (75)@ 3200 1/min ......... 145 (90)
140 (87)@ 3700 1/min ......... 170 (105)
are there speedo gears with different gear ratios on the market (Toyota)?
a little update above...(5th gear, 3.23 rear, stock 14" wheels)
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/13/08 12:53 PM
What's your exact tire size?
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/13/08 07:05 PM
Quote:
What's your exact tire size?
215/70 R14
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/13/08 11:38 PM
Quote:
Quote:
so, at all I drove maybe 600 miles the last weeks. And I love it - especially on the Autobahn...
This is what my Speedo compared to the Navigation system reads:
km/h (mls/h Orig Speedo) .......... km/h (mls/h) Navi.....[difference]
45 (28) .......... 50 (31) ..........[90.3%]
55 (34 ) .......... 70 (44) ..........[77.3%]
85 (53) .......... 100 (62) ..........[85.4%]
100 (62) .......... 120 (75) ..........[82.7%]
120 (75)@ 3200 1/min ......... 145 (90) ..........[83.3%]
140 (87)@ 3700 1/min ......... 170 (105) ..........[82.9%]
are there speedo gears with different gear ratios on the market (Toyota)?
a little update above...(5th gear, 3.23 rear, stock 14" wheels)
OK, looks like the orig speedo is reading about 20% lower than reality. That size in a BFGoodrich Radial T/A goes a mile in 806 revolutions, so with 3.23's and a 0.75:1 overdrive, the engine should be turning 1,953 rpm. So:
45 kmh (28mph) = 911 rpm
60 kmh (37mph) = 1,204 rpm
100 kmh (62mph) = 2,018 rpm
200 kmh (124mph) = 4,036 rpm (autobahn, right?)
You COULD get a tire that was 20% smaller, but that would look rediculous. Maybe a speedometer shop could recalibrate your speedo? Or maybe keep the GPS in the car...
Clair
Posted By: Greg55_99
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/29/08 03:29 PM
Last idea.. (I know I said that last time...) In the spirit of "Don't raise the bridge... Lower the river..
Got this message from a gent over on the Turbo Dodge board. He put an R154 in a RWD Acclaim behind a Turbo 2.2 with a DOHC Neon head. I asked how he got the speedo reading correctly with his setup:
"I worked around that problem. I installed a Stewart Warner electronic speedometer in the dash and combined the Toyota speedometer drive with a Chrysler drive. I attached a couple of pictures. If I wasn't using the Chrylser factory cruise control I could have just used an electronic sender off another Toyota, such as one I picked up off a Toyota mini van. The Stewart Warner speedometer will work with just about any type sending unit. To calibrate you just drive a measured mile and push a button."
Sounds like a plan. So, the other part of the equation (for you) may be this. A dash panel that allows you to use the aftermarket gauges you already have in your Dart along with an adjustable speedometer.
http://www.redlinegaugeworks.com/popups/popabody1.asphttp://www.redlinegaugeworks.com/products.aspMight be worth the expense.
Greg
Posted By: Greg55_99
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/29/08 03:31 PM
His instrument cluster.
Greg
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/16/08 04:56 PM
Buschi and Clair
I hope you guys can help me out. I have been working on an R-154 project that is similar to what you guys are doing. In my case I am attaching the R-154 to a 5.7 Hemi (3rd gen) and using the Dakota bell housing, this is going into a 71 Cuda. I am going to also use the Dakota hydraulic master and slave cylinder, throw-out bearing and clutch arm. The flywheel is a 130 tooth type, 10.5 inch pressure plate. Since the Dakota uses a 143 tooth flywheel I had to relocate the starter pocket inboard to accomodate the 130 tooth flywheel but this does alow me to use the AA clutch disk which is 10.5 inches. The pressure plate I tried to use was a standard 10.5 inch Borg and Beck lever type that was used on the early 70s mopars. I realize that the Dakota used a diaphram pressure plate and I plan on switching over to one of these.
My problem is that when I assembled everything the throwout bearing was solidly up against the levers of the pressure plate and the bellhousing bolts had not even been tightened up yet. I wonder what you guys ended up using for a pressure plate and also wonder if you could give me the depth from the tip of the diaphram where the throwout bearing contacts it to the flywheel surface. I'm not sure if a stock Dakota pressure plate is shallower on this dimension than the pressure plate I am using now but it would certainly explain my clearance problem. I also noticed alot of slop on the throwout bearing where it slides along the input shaft collar of the transmission, I wonder if anyone has the outside dimension of the input shaft collar of an AX15 so I could compare it to an R-154. I appreciate any help you can lend on this project.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/16/08 07:45 PM
Hi,
I used the stock flywheel from a Dakota with a Centerforce Dual friction pressure plate. I show you pics below. Sorry, but I can't measure the plate anymore 'cause I'm driving the setup since I'm ready with the conversion half year ago.
I'm a bit confused about what you're writing because the TOB never contacts the Flywheel.
Regarding the input shaft / TOB issue you need the input shaft housing from the Dakota Tranny. The R-154/Toyota does not work (diameter too small) All other ideas (bushing) wouldn't satisfy you. This might be a hard to find part.
Clair might explain this in better english...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/16/08 07:50 PM
Dakota Flywheel
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/16/08 07:53 PM
Centerforce Pressure Plate, btw what clutch plate are you using? Regarding diameter (mopar) & splines (Toyota)...
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/16/08 08:05 PM
here are the dakota and Toyota bearing retainers next to each other. On the Dakota one is the TOB attached. Furthermore you can see a small selfmade adapter to connect the too short and too small inputshaft with the Pilot bearing (stock mopar needle bearing style) inner diameter....
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/16/08 08:28 PM
Quote:
Buschi and Clair
I hope you guys can help me out. I have been working on an R-154 project that is similar to what you guys are doing. In my case I am attaching the R-154 to a 5.7 Hemi (3rd gen) and using the Dakota bell housing, this is going into a 71 Cuda. I am going to also use the Dakota hydraulic master and slave cylinder, throw-out bearing and clutch arm. The flywheel is a 130 tooth type, 10.5 inch pressure plate. Since the Dakota uses a 143 tooth flywheel I had to relocate the starter pocket inboard to accomodate the 130 tooth flywheel but this does alow me to use the AA clutch disk which is 10.5 inches. The pressure plate I tried to use was a standard 10.5 inch Borg and Beck lever type that was used on the early 70s mopars. I realize that the Dakota used a diaphram pressure plate and I plan on switching over to one of these.
My problem is that when I assembled everything the throwout bearing was solidly up against the levers of the pressure plate and the bellhousing bolts had not even been tightened up yet. I wonder what you guys ended up using for a pressure plate and also wonder if you could give me the depth from the tip of the diaphram where the throwout bearing contacts it to the flywheel surface. I'm not sure if a stock Dakota pressure plate is shallower on this dimension than the pressure plate I am using now but it would certainly explain my clearance problem. I also noticed alot of slop on the throwout bearing where it slides along the input shaft collar of the transmission, I wonder if anyone has the outside dimension of the input shaft collar of an AX15 so I could compare it to an R-154. I appreciate any help you can lend on this project.
Sounds like a nice project, nebo! I'm toying with using 4.7L some time way in the future, and I think it'll all bolt up the same, with the right flywheel.
I don't have a B&B pressure plate to compare to, but I can try to get a measurement off of the Dak diaphragm PP I have sitting in the garage. You're looking for tip of fingers to the FW surface, correct? If some other dimension, let me know.
I (still) don't have my setup together, waiting to get the EFI tuned before I tear the car up any further, but I've been saying that for a while now. Just curious, why did you relocate the starter pocket vs. using a 11" flywheel? I went with an AL McLeod unit that has bolt patterns for 10.5 and 11" clutches. What is the bolt pattern of the New Hemi crank flange?
Ditto to what Buschi said about the input bearing retainer. You need the AX-15 part, and they are somewhat hard to come by. Somewhere I've got contact info for the place I got the ones that Buschi and I are using, I'll have to dig a bit for it.
Buschi, how's the system working out? I know you made it to the Nationals, but I haven't followed up with you since then to check and see how it's all doing.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/16/08 08:47 PM
He Clair, nice to see you again....
everything works great. It makes much more fun than the Automatic. I can drive constant 100 mls/h and more w/o wasting any thought on the speed. Shifting up and down in the city and on Highways makes so much fun... I drove in this half year more miles than the last 2 years together (with less fuel consumption) - that speaks for itself.
Things to improve are the clutch (need a more "aggressive"), maybe McLeod too. And I need to calibrate the Speedo but this is not a problem anymore. The BOSCH shops in Germany can do this.
Next step is a custom grinded cam (already ordered). I want to break the 140mls/h mark. Thank god for the AUTOBAHN....
I do not regret anything....!!!
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/16/08 10:01 PM
Hi Buschi and Clair,
Wow you guys are really quick to get back to me on this. I could not use the Dakota flywheel because the crank flange hole pattern is different than on the small block mopar crank. I could have gone with a 143 tooth 11inch clutch flywheel but felt that this would not be optimal for the 10.5 inch AA clutch disk, so to use a 10.5 inch pressure plate with the 143 tooth flywheel would have meant drilling out a different hole pattern for the 10.5 inch pressure plate. It was just as easy for me to relocate the starter pocket inboard on the bellhousing, just a little welding and grinding time and I don't have to touch the flywheel. I was really counting on the old style pressure plate working out for this conversion.
Clair Yes I am looking for the distance from flywheel surface to the tip of the diaphram fingers as you had stated correctly.
I wonder if the hole pattern for bolting the pressure plate to the flywheel on the Dakota pressure plate is the same as it would be on the old style early 70s pressure plate that I have. The flywheel I am using is the one that Mopar Performance sells for the Hemi I believe it is made by McLeod it has the correct hole pattern for the pressure plate I am using but am not sure it is correct for a Dakota pressure plate.
Having to come up with an AX15 front case cover and bearing retainer kind of throws a curve into this project, any help you can give me in locating these parts would be appreciated.
Buschi thanks for the pictures.
Nebo
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/16/08 10:52 PM
No prob, Nebo. Just ask ask if you need more. But Clair is defenitly better in explaining...
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/17/08 03:23 AM
Quote:
I could not use the Dakota flywheel because the crank flange hole pattern is different than on the small block mopar crank.
The Dak is different than the Hemi or the LA? The Dak V6 FW I have is the same as the LA bolt pattern, and what I was going to use prior to getting the AL FW. The Dak V6 diaphragm PP also bolts up to a regular LA FW, so that's got to swap both ways, too.
Quote:
I could have gone with a 143 tooth 11inch clutch flywheel but felt that this would not be optimal for the 10.5 inch AA clutch disk, so to use a 10.5 inch pressure plate with the 143 tooth flywheel would have meant drilling out a different hole pattern for the 10.5 inch pressure plate. It was just as easy for me to relocate the starter pocket inboard on the bellhousing, just a little welding and grinding time and I don't have to touch the flywheel. I was really counting on the old style pressure plate working out for this conversion.
The Dak V6 uses a 10.5" clutch on a 143-tooth FW. Strange, but that's what it is.
Quote:
Clair Yes I am looking for the distance from flywheel surface to the tip of the diaphram fingers as you had stated correctly.
I'll try to get that number for you tomorrow - plumbing trouble at home kept me out of the garage today, but I may have a little time while waiting on another plumber tomorrow.
Quote:
I wonder if the hole pattern for bolting the pressure plate to the flywheel on the Dakota pressure plate is the same as it would be on the old style early 70s pressure plate that I have. The flywheel I am using is the one that Mopar Performance sells for the Hemi I believe it is made by McLeod it has the correct hole pattern for the pressure plate I am using but am not sure it is correct for a Dakota pressure plate.
See above on the bolt pattern issue. What's the scoop on the Hemi FW? I haven't seen that part before, but then I haven't been in the market, either. I would like to verify the G3 Hemi crank bolt pattern, though.
Quote:
Having to come up with an AX15 front case cover and bearing retainer kind of throws a curve into this project, any help you can give me in locating these parts would be appreciated.
I think this was the first place I tried, but they didn't have them at the time:
http://home.teleport.com/~mmerlinn/catalog/ty_red/tyred_f.htm
Click the link to bearing retainers on the right, and give them a call to verify. The place I ultimately found them at was a resource from Greg55_99:
Quote:
--- J & W Auto Wreckers <sales@jwjeep.com> wrote:
> From: "J & W Auto Wreckers" <sales@jwjeep.com>
> To: "Greg Williams" <greg55_99@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: AX15 tranny parts
> Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 12:18:59 -0700
>
> We sell the retainer for $50.00 each
>
> Thank You
> Mark, Neil, John & Gary
> sales@jwjeep.com
> 916-723-3950
> J & W Auto Wreckers
> 8626 Antelope No Rd
> Antelope CA 95843
They were great to work with and shipped fast.
Hope that helps,
Clair
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/17/08 06:54 PM
Clair,
Thanks for the contact info on the AX15 bearing retainer. The hemi flywheel uses an 8 bolt flange on the crank so it is quite different from the LA engine. It is good to know that the Dakota PP will bolt up to my flywheel, I just need to verify the dimension you can hopefully get for me, the only other thing it could be is the distance the face of the flywheel is from the surface on the engine block where the bell housing bolts to, if you could get me that dimension also it would be helpful.
Thanks,
Nebo
Posted By: Greg55_99
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/18/08 05:33 AM
Hey Nebo,
I live over in Sturbridge. I wouldn't mind seeing your setup sometime.
Greg
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/18/08 02:44 PM
Quote:
Clair,
Thanks for the contact info on the AX15 bearing retainer. The hemi flywheel uses an 8 bolt flange on the crank so it is quite different from the LA engine. It is good to know that the Dakota PP will bolt up to my flywheel, I just need to verify the dimension you can hopefully get for me, the only other thing it could be is the distance the face of the flywheel is from the surface on the engine block where the bell housing bolts to, if you could get me that dimension also it would be helpful.
Thanks,
Nebo
I got tied up with family stuff after the plumbing situation got resolved yesterday, so I'll try to get out to the garage tonight for those dimensions.
On the G3 Hemi bolt pattern, do you know if it's the same as the G2 Hemi, or is it the same as the 3.7L/4.7L new engines? I'm just WAG'ing the "fact" that the 3.7 and 4.7 are the same, BTW, but I know that the 3.7 IS 8-bolt, and is also smaller DIA than the 6-bolt LA/B/RB bolt pattern. Strange.
Clair
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/18/08 06:31 PM
Clair,
I'm not 100% sure on the crank flange hole pattern matching other engines but I am pretty sure it will not work on a G2 hemi and I think it is the same as 3.7/4.7 new engines but like I said I have not confirmed this myself.
Nebo
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/18/08 07:34 PM
Clair,
Seems the AX15 front bearing retainers that I can get my hands on are off of Jeeps. Do you know if the Jeep and the Dakota are the same part? The Jeep part I can get is cast iron. I believe the cast aluminum one is for the internal hydraulic throwout bearing. If you could get me the length of the collar that supports the input shaft and the diameter I could get the supplier to check the dimensions before it ships.
Nebo
Posted By: KEISLER
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/18/08 08:50 PM
Quote:
Hi everybody.
I want to swap a 5 speed behind my 340 with now tf 904 equiped 72 Dart.
I`ve read about Toyota supra 5 speeds with a Dakota 3.9 V6 Bellhousing. Chevy S10 tranny should fit on this Bellhousing too.
Anybody made or heard about this?
I don't wanna go the Keisler way cause its to expensive for me here in germany...
How's $1295 for low cost for the transmission only, and $1399 for a transmission with essentials kit, shown attached? Price is for 350 HP / 350 TQ (very conservative). Add $350 for 425 HP / TQ.
Same shifter position front-to-rear as A833 in A-body ... good enough ... Vote It
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/19/08 05:30 PM
good offer but what would it cost here in germany...?
But can I get the kit w/o tranny for 100.00 bucks???
Posted By: KEISLER
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 12/20/08 03:13 AM
Quote:
good offer but what would it cost here in germany...?
Using a freight forwarder in NY or FL, you should be able to land it for $300 thereabouts. We would free ship it with our BLOCKBUSTER SALE.
Check out the sale under the SPECIALS & DEALS forum here at Moparts
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/01/09 06:12 PM
Clair,
Have you had a chance to measure the dimensions on your clutch set-up yet?
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/02/09 08:05 PM
I promise, I haven't forgotten about you... I just excavated the parts from my garage last night - I literally can just barely turn around in there... I'll have some numbers for you tonight. I'll get the Dak diaphragm clutch bolted down to the Dak flywheel, and measure that way.
Clair
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/03/09 11:16 PM
OK, here's what I found. All measurements are referenced off of the crank flange surface where the flywheel bolts down. With a functional clutch disk installed and the pressure plate torqued down, the diaphragm fingers were 3.425" above the crank flange. The flywheel was 0.700" thick at the bolt flange, and 1.35" thick from the wear surface down to the crank flange.
For comparison to the Hemi, the mounting surface of the crank flange to the LA block is 0.6", and the LA crank flange bolt pattern is about 6x3.435" DIA. The 3.7L V6 crank flange bolt pattern is 8x3.137" DIA. I'd be interested to see what the Hemi's crank BP is, just so I'd know.
I hope this info helps you figure out what's going on, and I'm sorry it took so long to get to you. Keep us posted.
Clair
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/06/09 04:22 PM
Clair,
Thanks for making those measurements for me they were very helpful. It looks like the PP finger distance measurements between my PP and yours are close enough, within 0.1 inches and the FW wear surface to block measurement on mine is 1.665 inches where as on yours it is 1.95 inches. So if anything I should have more spacing of the PP fingers to throw-out bearing than you do, so something else is wrong, probably something stupid that I did. I'll mock things up again and try to figure it out. The slave cylinder I have from the Dakota is brand new and has a plastic retainer tab that is designed to snapped off before use, it may be possible that it has locked the slave cylinder piston in the extended position and this could be why I am having this problem. I'll keep you posted on my progress.
The other question I had was if you knew whether the Jeep AX15 cast iron front bearing retainer was the same as that used on the Dakota since the jeep unit seems to be easier to get than one from a Dakota.
The 3rd gen hemi flywheel bolt circle is the same as the V6 8 X 3.137" however the bolt holes are not evenly spaced around the circle. There is a cluster of 4 evenly spaced holes then a wider gap then another cluster of 4 evenly spaced bolt holes and another wider gap, same width as the first wider gap. I wonder if the V6 FW is set up the same way.
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 01/07/09 03:31 AM
Nebo,
I'm about 99% sure that the 3.7L V6 flywheel is the same. I have an auto trans flex plate that I bought to check fitment with my LA block and 3.7L bellhousing. The bell bolts up fine, but the LA flywheel doesn't work because the ring gear is too far back and doesn't engage the bendix. If the LA flywheel was .3" closer to the block, it might just work.
AFAIK, the Jeep and Dak retainers are the same, as long as they're the iron type. I think there's a nearly-flat aluminum one that you don't want. They guys in the source I got from Greg know their parts and can get you what you need.
Clair
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 04/03/09 08:12 PM
Buschi,
Time to return to my R154 in the Cuda project. Need to purchase a pressure plate, disk and pilot bearing.
Your pressure plate looks like the Center Force 2 model do you remember the part number, is it CFT361890? Where did you get your pilot bearing? I assume the disk is from Advanced Adapters part number AA 716105.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 04/03/09 08:26 PM
Hi Nebo,
pressure plate is indeed the Centerforce2. Don't have the p/n, I bought it used from a friend. It came out of a 383.
Pilot bearing is from a local dodge dealer. It is the needle bearing type from Mopar Performance. p/n should be 53009180.
Advanced Adapters disk: on the package is noted: p/n 716105 Toyota Truck 1-1/8-21 so you are right on that.
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 04/06/09 06:26 PM
Buschi,
Thanks for the info. I thought the pilot bearing 53009180 was for an A833 tranny input shaft which is bigger in diameter than the R154. Am I correct about this and if so what did you do to make it work with the R154?
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 04/06/09 08:15 PM
you are right. You need to fabricate an adapter like I did. I think it's the easiest way. See picture...
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 04/06/09 08:45 PM
Buschi,
Very nice job on the adapter, how did you attach it to the input shaft, interference fit or some other means.
Do you recall what the outer diameter of the pilot bearing was? I'm not sure if the hole in the end of the 3rd gen. hemi crank is the same diameter as it is in your engine.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 04/06/09 09:42 PM
I made the hole for the shaft in the adapter a bit smaller than the Shaft. It is shrinked on the Shaft. You know what I mean?
Diameter... hm, don't have it in my mind yet but can measure tomorrow. Here is the link to the partnumber:
pilot bearing
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 04/07/09 12:04 PM
I'm *pretty sure* that the 3G Hemi crank output end is the same as the other Mopar engines, but I don't have one sitting around to verify. The Maggies and LA's are the same, that's how I found out about the roller pilot brg.
Clair
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 04/07/09 12:32 PM
I guess it is worth just buying the bearing since it isn't that expensive and may come in handy down the road if I don't use it for this project.
I have a junked A833 input shaft that I use as a clutch disk alignment tool, maybe I'll cut the end off of that and turn it into the input shaft adapter for the R154. What do you guys think of that idea, perhaps the steel will be too difficult to machine for this application.
Posted By: MoparMarq
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 04/08/09 08:07 PM
FWIW I changed rear ends on my normally-aspirated Supra to one from a turbo model. The turbo model has 3.73 gears and the R154 trans, the NA model has 4.30 gears and the W58 trans. The speedo gears are not interchangeable as the diameters of the speedo driven gears are different. Since the gear and housing are concentric, as noted before, I had to get an adapter made to change the speedo cable speed so the speedo would read accurately.
I imagine any speedo shop could do it, but the place I found was
Tacoma Speedometer. The adapter fixed the ratio change and had the correct woodruff-key type input and output. I'm guessing they could make one with the woodruff-key type input and square-drive type Mopar output so that a Mopar cable would screw right on.
The adapter was about 3.5 inches long, 3.0 inches wide, and about an inch thick - the size due to internal gearing, obviously. The output was of course offset from the input, but it still fit within the factory Supra tunnel okay. It will probably fit with the back of a home-brewed tunnel too, I imagine.
If you need pics, (between work, kids, and the Mopar,) I could probably take a few within a week or so.
-Marq
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 04/10/09 01:59 PM
Quote:
If you need pics, (between work, kids, and the Mopar,) I could probably take a few within a week or so.
-Marq
Marq,
A pic would be great - no rush either, I'm in the same boat as you and "spare time" has all but vaporized for me. Obviously this thread has been hanging in there for a while now.
Nebo,
Cutting down the input shaft might be a way to go. I think there are even some new ones out there (Passon?), so if cost isn't a huge issue, it might be worth starting with a new unit. FWIW, I was going to go a different way than Buschi340 did. I was going to use the Mopar bearing/sleeve unit, but with the sleeve modified to fit the OEM Toyota bearing. Should be a simple enough operation if you've got a machine shop handy to open up the sleeve to the Yota roller bearing size.
Clair
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 04/15/09 12:25 PM
Hi clair,
after thousands of miles driven proudly of the conversion the clutch hydraulic makes me worry. It seems that I have either air in the system or it is getting too hot. You know that all parts are made of plastic and are not serviceable.
Clair, I'm looking for another setup. Made of steel / aluminium or similar. Don't have to be a Dodge Part. Is Chevy S10 similar? It should be mounted like the unit I have (would be the easiest)....
Any idea?
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 04/15/09 05:58 PM
Buschi,
I saw a web page where the person replaced the stock mopar slave cylinder with a more rugged metal unit and also added AN fittings and a braided hose, it didn't look too costly. He had the hydraulic setup on a Jeep and kept breaking the plastic slave cylinder when off roading. I will see if I can find the site again and post it if I can find it.
Clair,
I did some research yesterday on pilot bearing dimensions. The Toyota pilot bearing has an ID of 0.472" an OD of 1.260" and a width of 0.394" Timken PN# 201-CC. The pilot bearing Buschi is using Mopar PN# 53009180 has an ID of 0.7718" an OD of 1.8161" and a width of 0.565" it looks like this is also the same OD as the 3rd gen hemi crank with manual transmission. My crank which came out of a car with an auto transmission (2007 Charger) has a bushing installed with an ID of about 1.308", OD of 1.8161". My options as I see them would be to use the Toyota bearing and install it in the bushing with some shim stock between the bearing and bushing to take up the slop, this may or may not work and has the problem of having the Toyota bearing pretty far into the crank pilot bore. The Toyota pilot shaft is already coming up kind of short as far as how far it will protrude into the pilot bore. This problem is solved with Buschi's approach. The other option is along the lines that you were thinking Clair and remove the bushing that is currently in the Crank to open up the OD to 1.8161" and then finding a bushing that I can machine to the proper ID to accept the Toyota pilot bearing. Ideally the bushing would also have a substatial width to locate the Toyota pilot bearing closer to the R154 input shaft. Clair have you identified a bushing yet for your project and if so could you give me a part number?
Thanks everybody for your on going help.
Posted By: moper
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 04/15/09 09:10 PM
Guys,
I want to thank you guys for the level of detail on this swap. It motivated me to buy the trans and bellhuosing this afternoon. However, on the flywheel, I looked and the 3.9L is the same aftermarket part number as the 318 trucks from the late 70s and 80s. Now, I believe that earlier truck V8 neutral flywheels also interchange. Does anyone know if that's the case? I would love to be able to use the 143 tooth nuetral flywheel I already have...
Again, I admire your tenacity and level of detail...
Posted By: Greg55_99
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 04/16/09 02:29 AM
Quote:
Buschi,
I saw a web page where the person replaced the stock mopar slave cylinder with a more rugged metal unit and also added AN fittings and a braided hose, it didn't look too costly. He had the hydraulic setup on a Jeep and kept breaking the plastic slave cylinder when off roading. I will see if I can find the site again and post it if I can find it.
Clair,
I did some research yesterday on pilot bearing dimensions. The Toyota pilot bearing has an ID of 0.472" an OD of 1.260" and a width of 0.394" Timken PN# 201-CC. The pilot bearing Buschi is using Mopar PN# 53009180 has an ID of 0.7718" an OD of 1.8161" and a width of 0.565" it looks like this is also the same OD as the 3rd gen hemi crank with manual transmission. My crank which came out of a car with an auto transmission (2007 Charger) has a bushing installed with an ID of about 1.308", OD of 1.8161". My options as I see them would be to use the Toyota bearing and install it in the bushing with some shim stock between the bearing and bushing to take up the slop, this may or may not work and has the problem of having the Toyota bearing pretty far into the crank pilot bore. The Toyota pilot shaft is already coming up kind of short as far as how far it will protrude into the pilot bore. This problem is solved with Buschi's approach. The other option is along the lines that you were thinking Clair and remove the bushing that is currently in the Crank to open up the OD to 1.8161" and then finding a bushing that I can machine to the proper ID to accept the Toyota pilot bearing. Ideally the bushing would also have a substatial width to locate the Toyota pilot bearing closer to the R154 input shaft. Clair have you identified a bushing yet for your project and if so could you give me a part number?
Thanks everybody for your on going help.
This may be helpful:
http://advanceadapters.com/product/2600/%28P/N-716149-NS%29-Pilot-Bushing-.471-ID-X-1.090-OD.html
It's a GM to Toyota pilot bushing. It's longer than stock:
Greg
Posted By: Greg55_99
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 04/16/09 03:17 AM
Quote:
Hi clair,
after thousands of miles driven proudly of the conversion the clutch hydraulic makes me worry. It seems that I have either air in the system or it is getting too hot. You know that all parts are made of plastic and are not serviceable.
Clair, I'm looking for another setup. Made of steel / aluminium or similar. Don't have to be a Dodge Part. Is Chevy S10 similar? It should be mounted like the unit I have (would be the easiest)....
Any idea?
Hey Buschi,
Take a look at some of the Mercedes units...
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/replacement_sm/mercedes~clutch_slave_cylinder~replacement.html
Maybe you can match yours up with one of those.
Greg
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 04/16/09 09:21 AM
Quote:
Buschi,
I saw a web page where the person replaced the stock mopar slave cylinder with a more rugged metal unit and also added AN fittings and a braided hose, it didn't look too costly. He had the hydraulic setup on a Jeep and kept breaking the plastic slave cylinder when off roading. I will see if I can find the site again and post it if I can find it.
that would be great. But it should be designed like the original Assy. See page 7 of this thread. But any other solution is welcome too...
Greg, Daimler is a nice idea but I need the whole Assy. Master - hose/line - Slave.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 05/06/09 06:01 PM
Quote:
Buschi,
I saw a web page where the person replaced the stock mopar slave cylinder with a more rugged metal unit and also added AN fittings and a braided hose, it didn't look too costly. He had the hydraulic setup on a Jeep and kept breaking the plastic slave cylinder when off roading. I will see if I can find the site again and post it if I can find it.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 07/19/09 01:42 PM
Buschi!
Hello, I have just finished reading your thread! It has made me interested in building this setup into my '70 Swinger! However, I have not decided on whether to use a 273 or a Slant six! I have both, but both need rebuilding.. Anyway, I do not have an R154, I have a supra W58 instead. The Toyota uses a hydraulic setup for the clutch TOB that's pretty durable and (on the Celicas at least, dunno about Supra) reasonably cheap. The air can also be bled from the system ;D
I was going to try and use an A833 I have, but since I found this... I have at least 3 W58s laying around and I have one W55... might as well go for five speeds!
I will post a picture of the clutch master and slave later today, about to go to breakfast!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 07/20/09 02:17 PM
Ok, here are the pictures I promised! I can't find the setup I have that is out of the vehicle, so here's what I could photo at the moment:
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 07/20/09 02:18 PM
Slave cylinder new:
Posted By: 48Heap
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 07/20/09 04:23 PM
I wanted to use a W58 behind my slant 6, but I found that the input shaft was too short if I wanted to bolt an adapter plate between the standard A833 bell and the W58. Only way I thought it would work is if I could bolt them directly together and I didn't feel like I could get it fitted up. Someone did it, but I have no idea how. I went with the R154 because the input shaft was longer.
Posted By: 48Heap
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 07/20/09 04:27 PM
Here's another shot.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 07/20/09 04:56 PM
I really wish I had an R154 instead of a W58
Posted By: 48Heap
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 07/20/09 05:35 PM
I think a W58 would be a great transmission for the swap, they’re supposed to shift smoother than an R154, I think they have the strength (at least for any place a T5 would be used), and they are smaller and thus easier to fit in the tunnel. They have a lot going for them, I just couldn’t figure out a way to get around the short input shaft.
I suppose you could section one of your cases so you could use the face of the trans and the input bearing retainer to locate holes on the back of the Mopar bell. Machine a spacer to hold the throw out bearing snout of the bearing retainer in the center of the Mopar bell, space the sectioned case up off the bell so it is parallel and start center punching holes from the back side of the sectioned case. I would think you would still need to find a way to check the alignment of the input shaft to the crank when you are done, but if all of that were possible, maybe it would work.
Another possibility is to maybe make a pattern off the back of the Toyota bell in something like 1/4” plate. Bolt the pattern to the trans and fit a circular plate that matches the Mopar bellhousing bearing retainer hole to the Toyota bearing retainer TO snout. Square everything up and weld the ring to the 1/4” plate with the bolt pattern. Might have to remove the bearing retainer from the W58 and use the input shaft to center the locating ring, but I would be leery of the input shaft wobbling and throwing the center off. That should give you something that would center on the Mopar bell and locate the holes so that the input shaft would be close to the centerline of the crank. Still need to check alignment somehow, though.
Either way, I don’t believe you can do this without finding some way to bolt the W58 direct to the bell without an adapter plate.
You could look up Dellow Automotive in Ozzy land for a new bell that would bolt up, but last time I checked it was $750 US for the custom bellhousing, and the clutch fork was on the wrong side of the car. If you adapt a hydraulic setup, maybe it would be an issue for you. Just a thought. BTW, don’t email them, you have to call to get any kind of a response.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 07/20/09 10:01 PM
Golly, Beav, that sounds like a b****!
I can speak from personal experience on the W58 -- they are a really nice-driving transmission.. Have clocked at least 65,000 miles on them in three different Celicas. Never driven an R154, though. In the '79 Celica I drive, I replaced the W50 with a W58... brother let the fluid run out and I burnt it up after a 60 mile drive.. After putting fluid back in the W50, though, it lasted another 4,000 miles (mostly highway) with just 4th gear.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 07/21/09 09:43 PM
Quote:
Slave cylinder new:
thanks for the pix. But the mounting is complete different. The cylinder for the Dakota and the Supra will be mounted on the front of the cylinder. This one needs to be adapted somehow I guess.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 07/22/09 10:30 PM
ok , for some reason I didn't notice the way the cylinder was mounted on your bellhousing. On the W5x's, obviously, the slaves are mounted on the side of the bellhousing. D'oh!
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 08/05/09 06:05 PM
Buschi,
Sorry it took so long to find the info on the slave cylinder swap, by now you have probably come up with a solution. After numerous attempts to find the web site that I was referring to I finally found it and bookmarked it this time. Here it is
http://www.universityofjeep.ca/Tech/Clutch/Clutch_Slave_Repair.htmRegards,
Nebo
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 12/28/09 05:26 PM
Buschi,
It has been a while and I wonder if you have solved your slave cylinder problem. I am at the point in my R154 conversion where I need to finalize the components in my hydraulic clutch. The stock Dakota/Jeep setup looks OK but if you are having reliability problems then I think I will go with something else.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 12/28/09 06:28 PM
Nebo, sorry but I did nothing the last month. My J-heads are shot now
so the car is sleeping until it gets a) warmer & b) I found a cheaper way to ship some new heads (thinking about RHS INDY LAX ) from you to Germany.
Regarding the hydraulic. It works fine but the reason for a different set is that I don't like this plastic stuff (and it is complete made of plastic) and you can't bleed it. But you can use it as long as you did find a better one (than you have to let me know immediately...
)
Posted By: volaredon
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 01/20/10 02:31 PM
I am glad that this thread was brought back.... I'm thinking of doing this behind my 318 Magnum in a Volare... looking at a few options; I have a '93 AX 15 from a Dakota now (nothing yet in the car.... but this trans is collecting dust in the shed) but if I could find the R154 reasonable I could split the BH from the AX 15...
now if the "computer idiot" in me can figure out how to bookmark the thread....
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 09/08/10 10:23 PM
Hi, bringing this back up again. How's the progress everywhere? I'm now driving the 2nd season and I'm still satisfied with the swap. Driving is easy on germany's Autobahn even with a speed of 200km/h. Gas-Mileage is still great with 14-15L/100km.
Been this weekend on the track and this might be the only weak point. It is now a 15 second car. Maybe there has to be a change somewhere.. ;-) In the rear is the 3.23 with 14" wheels.
What's your experience if you're already done and been on a track so far???
Posted By: GMP440
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 09/09/10 03:22 AM
There was an article on Allpar, in which someone had a mid 80's Supra or Celica GT in which he put a 318 in it and retained the original Toyota 5 speed gearbox. Read about it a couple of nights ago.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 04/11/11 09:32 PM
3rd year and still working. But do you know what? I'm swaping the 340 for a 6.1.....
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 11/12/12 08:10 PM
4th year now. 2nd year with the HEMI. The Tranny resists the power of the 6.1 w/o any problems.
But I'm still looking for a different hydraulik system, Master and slave. The Dakota set works but I don't want this non-serviceable plastic stuff.
Any ideas, guys?
Any progress on your builds in the meantime?
Posted By: 48Heap
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 11/13/12 08:28 PM
What did you end up doing for a flywheel? Seems like I remember seeing you say somewhere that it was an issue when you swapped to the hemi.
My project dead-ended. The car really was too far gone and the solid 74 Duster 360 4 speed sitting next to it made more sense. I couldn't keep them both and so the Valiant is now a new Toyota or something. I did save the crossmember, though, and I so I still have all of the R154 stuff. Struggling to cut up the floor of an original 4 speed Duster 360 so it hasn't made it's way in there. Might still do it, though.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 11/14/12 10:12 PM
i used the small block flywheel. Welded the holes and re-drilled. Working good, no vibrations. Even without balancing...
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 11/15/12 10:53 AM
I'm also paying attention here... as i'm slowly being or rather... letting myself be convinced to trade my big block for a small block for a daily driver.
Just wondering though, both posted pictures ov some fairly severe floor/tunnel modifications... I'm really not interested in that. I'll trim, whack, cut a bit here and there, but i'd like to keep as much original metal as possible.
My question is... would i have to do as much to put that tranny in an E-body...??? My car is a 70 Challenger, and already a stick car.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 11/16/12 01:03 AM
sorry, I don't know how wide the tunnel in an E-Body is but I guess you have to cut the same like I did.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 11/21/12 06:03 PM
here in the attached picture is the 96 Dakota Clutch hydraulik I'm currently using. I'm looking for similar but serviceable...
Posted By: cageman
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 11/21/12 06:25 PM
I have a 5 speed out of a 91 chevy s10 in my Valiant, I took all the hydraulic clutch pieces out of that truck too. Been using it for like 8 years now, works good.
Those sealed deals are easy to bleed when they are out of the vehicle. Make sure the resevoir is high and full, and push the master in, that will extend the slave, then push the slave back in and that will push the fluid back into the resevoir, which will get the air out, might have to do it a few times. I did this on a system that was working I pulled out and the cap wasnt on the resevoir tight and the fluid leaked out, basically draining the system. I bled it this way and it worked. Now if it is getting air in, you will never get that solved this way.
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 11/21/12 07:03 PM
Thanks!
The master has a scratch inside. So its yunk. I opened the master and filled it up. But the system is only good for a few month than too much air is inside.
The S-10 looks similar, right? But it is not sealed because I have a 89 S-10 and I can bleed on the slave the common way. Is the 91 the next generation from mine? Mybe I should measure my Chevy set and try to use Chevy tech in the car :-D
Posted By: cageman
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 11/21/12 07:39 PM
Im usuing a Hydro release bearing, so It bleads off of that, I just pulled another trans and clutch setup off of another s10 a couple weeks ago for anothere vehicle, so Ill have to look. I basically had to drill two holes around the hole in the floor the old clutch linkage went through. I also made a plate to reinforce the floor. I used the steel fitting coming out of the master, but I tig welded a steel an-4 fitting to it, and used steel braided line to connect the two, works good. About a year after I did mine, I think it was keisler that came out with almost the exact smae thing.
I grabbed a hydro release bearing setup off of a jeep cherokee, it fits niceley on a chrysler four speed, but the car that is going into is collecting dust in my shop. I never get to work on my own stuff it seems.
Posted By: Greg55_99
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 11/26/12 04:54 PM
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 11/26/12 05:07 PM
Quote:
Thanks!
The master has a scratch inside. So its yunk. I opened the master and filled it up. But the system is only good for a few month than too much air is inside.
The S-10 looks similar, right? But it is not sealed because I have a 89 S-10 and I can bleed on the slave the common way. Is the 91 the next generation from mine? Mybe I should measure my Chevy set and try to use Chevy tech in the car :-D
Do you need a new master/slave? I could probably get one at the local parts store and have it shipped to you cheaper than you could "mail order" one in.
The stock Dakota Master/slave assembly is a good piece, and can last for years and hundreds of thousands of miles without ever causing problems, leaking, etc. I've had 2 Dakota's that were 5-spds from the factory, and neither one has ever had a leak or problem with the hydraulic master/slave system on the clutch.
If yours is damaged, I would consider just replacing it with a new off the shelf part, vs putting together an expensive aftermarket Hyd. TO bearing set-up.
I had a bigblock/TKO set-up that used aftermarket parts, and the hydraulic master/TO bearing cost me about $400 total, vs about $120 for the stock Dakota stuff.
Posted By: rapidtransitrick
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 12/16/12 01:35 AM
excellent thread here. very useful information
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 01/09/13 12:08 AM
Quote:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=751391&highlight=ax15
Greg
thats great!!! Now only a good master and my prob is fixed. Maybe one of the wilwoods? Or does Dakota or Jeep have aluminium master too?
Thanks for the link!
Posted By: nebo
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - speedo adapter - 01/29/13 07:44 PM
Quote:
I'm also paying attention here... as i'm slowly being or rather... letting myself be convinced to trade my big block for a small block for a daily driver.
Just wondering though, both posted pictures ov some fairly severe floor/tunnel modifications... I'm really not interested in that. I'll trim, whack, cut a bit here and there, but i'd like to keep as much original metal as possible.
My question is... would i have to do as much to put that tranny in an E-body...??? My car is a 70 Challenger, and already a stick car.
I have the same problem but it is a 71 Cuda 4 speed car. I have posted a bunch on this thread previously and have the R154 and Hemi all assembled together on a spare K frame sitting next to the Cuda. This is handy because I can make measurements to see how it will all fit before actually trying the install. My conclusion is the floor pan is going to have to be hacked and unfortunately that includes cutting the torsion bar support that runs under the trans tunnel. My problem is I cannot bring myself to do this on a near perfect rust free original 340 Cuda. Additionally the shifter location on the R154 will have to be moved back a considerable distance. I am waiting to see how the McLeod and Passon retrofit 5 speeds work out and may go that route instead even though it is considerably more expensive.
Nebo
Posted By: hemiova
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 04/17/13 03:54 AM
Quote:
you are right. You need to fabricate an adapter like I did. I think it's the easiest way. See picture...
What was used to make this adapter? I know the I.D is 0.471" and O.D is size of mopar pilot bearing but what was the length? what kind of material is that?
this is the only part i am stuck on with my swap. thanks in advance
Posted By: kfd
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - Pilot bearing...? - 06/12/13 05:10 AM
Hey fellas, I hate being the noob bumping a thread that has been dead longer than a few weeks, but I found some useful info and wanted to put it here so l could find it later, and contribute to this thread!
I had a few questions that didn't make sense, and instead of asking more questions I thought I would contribute...
So being out of the Mopar game almost ten years, my new Japanese car fetish found a way back to my Mopar roots: the LA-series is an easy drop in the '70-'78 Datsun Z! I was perusing HybridZ when a link to this very thread...
My biggest question was how the R154 input shaft cooperated with the Mopar pressure plate... I found
this answer on Slant Six.org...
This is the clutch... I'll get to that...
Now, call me speshul, but I might have seen this picture a page or two back...
Okay... What I found...
This was user Joshua Skinner, and he is stuffing a 273 in an RX-7...
So like what I have read here, 3.9 (AX-15)Bellhousing, 89-91 Soopra R154 gearbox. Spec Clutch built that pretty blue thing, and he had a sleeve machined to hold the bearing to accept the Toyota snout. That is a Shiefer aluminum flywheel, I read in a later post it is a 143 tooth big-block unit!
I didn't follow the starter idea, but I did see a link for a good upgrade for the plastic clutch slave. What I read on an another post (I will see if I find the link again), a newer Liberty slave has an aluminum body (say if your master isn't a Mopar bolt pattern)...
Okay, I lied. It's from a Grand Cherokee... There's the part number...
Okay, this thing looks like the plastic Dakota unit, but being rendered in aluminum, it can be tapped and a line can be ran to your clutch master!
A company called Advance Adapters makes this kit for about seventy-five
Bucks...
Blowing the dust off my latent Mopar knowledge, all Magnum and pre-'92 LA have the same flywheel (and bellhousing.. I think even Early Hemis, excluding '55-'56 331s have the same , I am sure someone can fill me in), so if you find that Dakota or Ram with the five speed, rape and pillage. The R154s are stronger and have a better gear ratio spacing, so continue reading. 318s are internally balanced, 360s are externally balanced, and 340s cross the block at Barrett-Jackson.
I didn't find a clear answer on what starter you guys used, but everything else made good sense...
I leave for my Japan deployment in August, (woo-hoo Fender Mirrors and JDM taillights!!) so the question of getting a stock dual snorkel air cleaner (with the forged-crank 340) under the hood of a 918 Orange 240Z with correct "D" hubcaps isn't happening soon, but I am keeping an eye open for parts... And answers!
Later,
KFD
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion - Pilot bearing...? - 07/15/13 05:21 PM
i used the cherokee slave, wilwood master, advanced adapter set.
Starter is 5.7 Truck Hemi.
All works perfect. Kinda boring hahahaha
Posted By: Buschi340
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 04/07/16 02:38 PM
think ist time to Change the clutch. Lasted a Long time on Strip and street. almost 8 years.
still have the CF2 in the car. But can't find the coreect part number. And you guys know the equivalent from CF DFX or McLeod? 10.5". Flywheel is 143 tooth ( 5300 6741 k 68173 nh )
Posted By: DemonDEN
Re: 340sb with 5 speed conversion? - 11/17/16 12:07 AM
Buschi, not sure if you're still looking, but I think this is the pressure plate you're looking for:
Centerforce® 11361739
https://www.carid.com/centerforce/dfx-se...CFQkJaQodydoNNQ