Moparts
Highest lift cam on stock 440 ?
Posted By: Dodgeballs
Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/10/09 10:48 PM
Another cam question, different car...
I know I need to check the piston to valve clearance. But before I order my cam, how much lift can I reasonably expect to run - lets say for example the mopar purple shafts. I have been told I should be able to run a 509 without any problem. What about a 557 solid?
69 440 pistons are .024 in the hole and have shallow valve reliefs. Heads are uncut 906 castings, but I was considering cutting them to bump the compression to run the bigger solid. Of course if I cut them, that lessens the clearance and might make it senseless to do...
thanks
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/10/09 11:00 PM
.480ish or when you bend a p-rod.. whichever comes first.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/10/09 11:15 PM
Going out on a limb I would think no way on those lifts w your deck dimentions. I'd flycut the reliefs deeper & hughes sells a cutter shaped like a valve for this. I'm assuming your shortblock is together
. You would want the piston deck to be at least .150" thick after deepening and it would change your balance slightly.
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/10/09 11:40 PM
A lot of guys run 509's but not with stock springs. I have done it and not had problem.
Posted By: Dodgeballs
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 12:18 AM
Heads already have dual springs on them. I'm just worried about piston to valve clearance.
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 12:28 AM
I've run the MP 528 solid on a few engines with those pistons with no issues.
Sheldon
Posted By: Polarapete
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 12:34 AM
I ran a 296 degree 557 lift Purpleshaft cam in a 440 with 906 heads and TRW 6-pack pistons...twenty years ago! As I recall, I put one head on the block w/o a head gasket and some clay on the piston, set the valves in that cylinder to spec and rolled it over. It must have cleared with room to spare, because the engine ran great and the car was very consistent.
Posted By: Thackdaddy
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 01:28 AM
Quote:
I ran a 296 degree 557 lift Purpleshaft cam in a 440 with 906 heads and TRW 6-pack pistons...twenty years ago! As I recall, I put one head on the block w/o a head gasket and some clay on the piston, set the valves in that cylinder to spec and rolled it over. It must have cleared with room to spare, because the engine ran great and the car was very consistent.
Checking with clay is the only way to know for sure.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 01:40 AM
Quote:
Heads already have dual springs on them. I'm just worried about piston to valve clearance.
Kuddos to you for leaving that part out.. worried? measure it. period.
or guess, or go by whoevers word.. whatev.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 01:45 AM
You could mock it up w a pair of light springs and a dial indicator & w the piston @TDC move the valve down .557 (or .509) plus .080 addt'l on the intake valve & .100" on the ex valve & if no contact then in use with the piston/valve phasing it could never be any tighter than that. Might be something to check before you purchase a cam.
Posted By: Dodgeballs
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 02:30 AM
Thanks Robert and everyone else. I'll see what I get with what you suggested. I probably shouldn't get more than a 509 to be safe. And then check the clearance
Quote:
You could mock it up w a pair of light springs and a dial indicator & w the piston @TDC move the valve down .557 (or .509) plus .080 addt'l on the intake valve & .100" on the ex valve & if no contact then in use with the piston/valve phasing it could never be any tighter than that. Might be something to check before you purchase a cam.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 02:44 AM
If you're all assembled you could take off a pair of springs w an on engine valve spring compressor & put on the light springs & experiment a bit. iirc one of the cam companies once you had that dimention in hand had a spec sheet listed that would tell you which one(s) of their cams would clear and you could probably cross that over to our MP cams
Posted By: Dodgeballs
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 02:47 AM
I'm sorry. I didn't know that having dual springs on the head already would affect piston to valve clearance. Maybe you could explain it to me. And if you bothered to read my first post, you would see that I acknowledged that I need to check the clearance. I just wanted to know what I probably could run. Hence, I wouldn't buy something too big that would not have any chance to work. So I'm asking "whoevers" to get a feel of what will work. I will then get a cam that will likely work. Then I will check the clearance. I never asked what cam I could run with stock springs. I know to match the springs with the cam (but thanks MoparforLife for pointing that out - no sarcasm intended at all).
So kudos to you MoPowered_SS for raising a red herring.. whatev (wags head in circle and gives the "talk to the hand").
Quote:
Quote:
Heads already have dual springs on them. I'm just worried about piston to valve clearance.
Kuddos to you for leaving that part out.. worried? measure it. period.
or guess, or go by whoevers word.. whatev.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 02:56 AM
Subject: Highest lift cam on a stock 440?
nowhere in post #5597643 said your using double springs.
think about the subject before putting fingers to keys. thank you.
Posted By: dulcich
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 02:58 AM
Quote:
You could mock it up w a pair of light springs and a dial indicator & w the piston @TDC move the valve down .557 (or .509) plus .080 addt'l on the intake valve & .100" on the ex valve & if no contact then in use with the piston/valve phasing it could never be any tighter than that. Might be something to check before you purchase a cam.
I'm sure they will hit if you do this test. Peak valve lift is not at TDC, but occurs at about 106-112 degrees of crank rotation. The piston is a mile down the hole by then. You can test with a dial indicator, but not like this. A clay test would be the simplest.
-dulcich
Posted By: Dodgeballs
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 03:39 AM
I could have been more clear about springs. But if you read the body of the post you may have seen that my post was about piston to valve clearance and not spring pressures. Don't know why you got so pissy over it.
Quote:
Subject: Highest lift cam on a stock 440?
nowhere in post #5597643 said your using double springs.
think about the subject before putting fingers to keys. thank you.
Posted By: Dodgeballs
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 03:40 AM
Thanks. I think I'll get the 509 and check it.
Quote:
Quote:
You could mock it up w a pair of light springs and a dial indicator & w the piston @TDC move the valve down .557 (or .509) plus .080 addt'l on the intake valve & .100" on the ex valve & if no contact then in use with the piston/valve phasing it could never be any tighter than that. Might be something to check before you purchase a cam.
I'm sure they will hit if you do this test. Peak valve lift is not at TDC, but occurs at about 106-112 degrees of crank rotation. The piston is a mile down the hole by then. You can test with a dial indicator, but not like this. A clay test would be the simplest.
-dulcich
Posted By: Dusted_Ya
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 03:49 AM
Not to add some complexity to this but with stock heads and stock springs how much lift do you have till you reach coil bind or retainer/guide bind? This might be your determining factor.
Posted By: Dodgeballs
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 04:13 AM
I will change the springs. It is pretty much about valve clearance and compression, which in my case are hand in hand.
Quote:
Not to add some complexity to this but with stock heads and stock springs how much lift do you have till you reach coil bind or retainer/guide bind? This might be your determining factor.
Posted By: demonH1B
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 02:05 PM
I agree with the coil bind & retainer to
guide factor. Over .500 lift I would be
sure to check this, with stock valves.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 02:16 PM
I ran first the 292 .509 then the 320 .533 with flat tops .030 in the hole with no valve reliefs with the dual springs with no problems! Had about .045 off the 906 heads too! Did a crude check on the 533 it was tighter .060 to .070 but never hit and I drove the crap out of it shifting as high as 6600 but best quarters were at 5800 to 6000
Now on a hydraulic I use solid Lifters and adjustable pushrods?? to check
Checking is always best? But back in the day
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 02:45 PM
528 solid would probably work well. The 557 and 509 will require a good stall (3000+) and 3.91's or better.
Also if you want to run the 509, be sure you have headers, a good dual plane intake, 750DP, along with the stall and gears, otherwise it's going to be a DOG out of the hole. TRUST me on that.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 06:09 PM
Big thing with the 509 is to make sure it is degreed at 107 they are dogs at 103 fun wow!!!
I two like RPM performer 750 holley, headers and 3000 if you don't degree the cam 4000??
Posted By: Dodgeballs
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 07:12 PM
Man, I guess SS was right. I should have posted more info. My car is a 4 speed/4.56 rear. Gonna have headers. I'd run a 557 if it won't play Chuck Woolery and make a Love Connection between my pistons and valves. Six Pack or Performer RPM.
Quote:
528 solid would probably work well. The 557 and 509 will require a good stall (3000+) and 3.91's or better.
Also if you want to run the 509, be sure you have headers, a good dual plane intake, 750DP, along with the stall and gears, otherwise it's going to be a DOG out of the hole. TRUST me on that.
Posted By: Dodgeballs
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 07:16 PM
I was looking here -
http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/mpcam-tech-c.htmAnd it says that the 509 should be installed at 108 per Chrysler.
Quote:
Big thing with the 509 is to make sure it is degreed at 107 they are dogs at 103 fun wow!!!
I two like RPM performer 750 holley, headers and 3000 if you don't degree the cam 4000??
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 08:33 PM
Quote:
Man, I guess SS was right. I should have posted more info. My car is a 4 speed/4.56 rear. Gonna have headers. I'd run a 557 if it won't play Chuck Woolery and make a Love Connection between my pistons and valves. Six Pack or Performer RPM.
Quote:
528 solid would probably work well. The 557 and 509 will require a good stall (3000+) and 3.91's or better.
Also if you want to run the 509, be sure you have headers, a good dual plane intake, 750DP, along with the stall and gears, otherwise it's going to be a DOG out of the hole. TRUST me on that.
Why not try a newer cam grind? Straightline makes some good cams. I think the 6 pack pistons should be ok w/ a 557. after you subtract the lash you're about 537 or so.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 09:40 PM
Quote:
I was looking here - http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/mpcam-tech-c.htm
And it says that the 509 should be installed at 108 per Chrysler.
Quote:
Big thing with the 509 is to make sure it is degreed at 107 they are dogs at 103 fun wow!!!
I two like RPM performer 750 holley, headers and 3000 if you don't degree the cam 4000??
Well that is wrong the suggest 106 got a mopar book right in my hand and every mopar book I've had in the last 26 years says 106.
Now in that 25 years I had one for 8 or so years and help 3 or more friends with them and I can tell you they love 103 intake installed centerline.
Now on a 4 speed (or a 4200 stall) 12.5 to 1 compression fully ported heads with 4.56 gears maybe 106
I swear some of you guys have never ran a car tried a different degree and tried it again!!!
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/11/09 09:48 PM
Why not try a newer cam grind? Straightline makes some good cams. I think the 6 pack pistons should be ok w/ a 557. after you subtract the lash you're about 537 or so.
\
Straightline no longer exists and he does spec a good cam ( I have a roller of his on the shelf) but they are someone elses grind??
Since everyone has a cam almost exactly the specs
of the 509 lift duration and LSA so buying from Comp cams or other makes it a new cam. these cams make serious power that's why they are copied.
Now for the guys that need/want less performance and some of the issues that come with them there are Summit brand cams!!!
There is probably something to the longer exhaust duration verses the intake but most still sell the even split and many builders perfer them so it is Tomato Tomato???
Posted By: Dodgeballs
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/12/09 12:42 AM
I believe you. I don't know nothin. That's why I'm asking you guys. But is it 103 or 107 that you recomend? Your first post sounded like I should install it at 107. The second seems like you are saying to install it at 103?
Quote:
Quote:
I was looking here - http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/mpcam-tech-c.htm
And it says that the 509 should be installed at 108 per Chrysler.
Quote:
Big thing with the 509 is to make sure it is degreed at 107 they are dogs at 103 fun wow!!!
I two like RPM performer 750 holley, headers and 3000 if you don't degree the cam 4000??
Well that is wrong the suggest 106 got a mopar book right in my hand and every mopar book I've had in the last 26 years says 106.
Now in that 25 years I had one for 8 or so years and help 3 or more friends with them and I can tell you they love 103 intake installed centerline.
Now on a 4 speed (or a 4200 stall) 12.5 to 1 compression fully ported heads with 4.56 gears maybe 106
I swear some of you guys have never ran a car tried a different degree and tried it again!!!
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/12/09 01:32 AM
I would recommend 104 give or take one (105 to 103)
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/12/09 02:26 AM
i know for a fact that they like 103-104.
Posted By: kruger
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/12/09 03:02 AM
Quote:
i know for a fact that they like 103-104.
and he'll like it too.You'll never know what your motor really likes if your just lining up the dots. 
Whatever cam you decide,degree it so you'll know where your at.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/12/09 03:10 AM
Quote:
Man, I guess SS was right. I should have posted more info. My car is a 4 speed/4.56 rear. Gonna have headers. I'd run a 557 if it won't play Chuck Woolery and make a Love Connection between my pistons and valves. Six Pack or Performer RPM.
Quote:
528 solid would probably work well. The 557 and 509 will require a good stall (3000+) and 3.91's or better.
Also if you want to run the 509, be sure you have headers, a good dual plane intake, 750DP, along with the stall and gears, otherwise it's going to be a DOG out of the hole. TRUST me on that.
i never get as you put it "pissy". accurate information yields accurate responses.
accurate infomation yeilds accurate responses
and with that said...results will vary from engine to engine
I have seen engines with less do more with accurate dial in
from under the shade tree
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/12/09 01:40 PM
Quote:
Why not try a newer cam grind? Straightline makes some good cams. I think the 6 pack pistons should be ok w/ a 557. after you subtract the lash you're about 537 or so.
\
Straightline no longer exists and he does spec a good cam ( I have a roller of his on the shelf) but they are someone elses grind??
Since everyone has a cam almost exactly the specs
of the 509 lift duration and LSA so buying from Comp cams or other makes it a new cam. these cams make serious power that's why they are copied.
Now for the guys that need/want less performance and some of the issues that come with them there are Summit brand cams!!!
There is probably something to the longer exhaust duration verses the intake but most still sell the even split and many builders perfer them so it is Tomato Tomato???
I talked to Scott the other day. I will be buying one of his cams soon. 236 (@.050) 550 solid. If you want his # PM me. Also the Summit 488 cam is pretty good. Got it to run 12.90 in a mild 9:1 440 in a 3900 lb B-body.
Posted By: Dodgeballs
Re: Highest lift cam on stock 440 ? - 11/12/09 06:53 PM