440 valley pan damage.

Posted By: MoparDonny

440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 07:47 PM

Hey guys, never had this happen before. My valley pan somehow looks like someone pounded it up from in the lifter valley. As if an explosion happened in the block. As far as I know it never backfired or anything. It was fine say a week and a half ago during some races we had but now it is pounded up so much it's touching the bottom of my TM-7 intake. I pushed it back down for now and there are no real leaks anywhere on the engine that I can see.
Car drives fine with no missing or popping, starts fine, idles fine, everything. I was shifting it at 62-6300 but I always do. My vented cap on the valvecover is nice and clean and the dipstick has never pushed itself out. I'm stumped. Might there be something going on for this to happen?

Don.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 07:50 PM

I've seen that happen on cars that the distributor was either stabbed 180* out or wired backwards (ala clockwise instead of counter on the cap)

Posted By: MoparDonny

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 07:52 PM

Engine has been in the car for 2 years and nothing ever changed. just noticed this morning when taking water out and adding antifreeze.It's just that I figured that if there was enough pressure to balloon the valley pan like that you'd think there would be gaskets or seals somewhere else that would be damaged.

Posted By: dOc …

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 07:53 PM

There was some "chat" on just this topic about a week or so ago. Some people say that THIS is normal.

I do not agree. It takes some SEVERE pressure to blow-up a VP like that.

Again .. the last time I saw one of these VP's that did this .... there was a hole in the piston almost the size of a quarter.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 07:55 PM

something is causing pressure in the crankcase....

Clogged PCV valve usually results in the dipstick blowing out....along with copius amounts of oil! DAMHIK!

Posted By: furious70

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 07:55 PM

I've had it happen a couple times, personally I'm wondering if felpro is sneaking a couple thou here and there of metal off them and they've gotten weaker over time.....

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 07:55 PM

You had a little back fire just didn't notice/hear it when it happened. I'd say you're good.

Posted By: MoparDonny

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 07:56 PM

Quote:

Again .. the last time I saw one of these VP's that did this .... there was a hole in the piston almost the size of a quarter.

I certainly hope not. But I doubt there is any real damage to anything internal. The idle is exactly the same and there is absolutely no change in drivability and it still hauls ass, ha ha!!

Posted By: copchaser

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 09:08 PM

I had this happen twice on the same engine. All was good in life, I installed a Moroso evac kit and the valley pan balloned, changed the pan and it happened again. I removed the moroso kit and installed a dirt cheap Mr.Gasket evac kit and have not had any problems sence.

Posted By: MoparDonny

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 10:48 PM

What do you mean by an EVAC kit? A PCV system?

Posted By: bobby66

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 11:08 PM

It might be time to do compression and leakdown tests on the engine. Then you'll know. Excessive pressure in the crankcase will push out a valley pan.

Posted By: D_C

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/20/09 11:23 PM

It may have just been an un-heard backfire, but would be a good idea to check compression to be sure.

May not be a problem if the engine is running fine.

P.S.: A "Pan-Evac" is a Crankcase Evacuation System. Basically, a 1/2-inch pipe, cut at a 45-degree angle, inserted/welded into your header-collector.

A check-valve is screwed onto the threaded-end of the pipe, and hose connects check-valve to closed-type crankcase breathers.

The pipe, placed in the exhaust stream, draws air from the crankcase, causing a partial vacuum, reducing crankcase pressure, removing blow-by, improving windage. Sort of a poor-mans crankcase vacuum pump. Pan Evac Kit

Posted By: GODSCOUNTRY340

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 01:26 AM

I've seen a bad fuel pump cause this. Gas gets pumped into the crankcase, ignites, ballooning the valley pan, valves covers and even the oil pan. It you're running a mechanical fuel pump you may want to take a look at it. Does your oil smell like gas?

Posted By: MoparDonny

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 05:08 AM

Quote:

I've seen a bad fuel pump cause this. Gas gets pumped into the crankcase, ignites, ballooning the valley pan, valves covers and even the oil pan. It you're running a mechanical fuel pump you may want to take a look at it. Does your oil smell like gas?

I use a block off plate, no pump. Only an electric.

Posted By: MoparDonny

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 05:17 AM

DC !!! Do you need some sort of breather in the system also or just the two shown. I would think that if there was another breather in the sytem it would just vent the valvecover area.

Posted By: D_C

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 08:13 AM

Actually, it is supposed to be a closed-system. The breathers included in the kit are used (or similar if you want something else.)

The kit also includes grommets to seal the breathers to the valve covers.

Serious race engines (some street engines too) use crankcase vacuum pumps (if legal per the controlling sanctioning body) to remove the air and extraneous combustion gasses, etc, from the crankcase.

This provides better ring seal, but in addition, removing the air improves horsepower, as the back sides of the pistons do not need to move air around inside the crankcase.

You think about the air above the piston (air/fuel mixture) but there is also air inside the crankcase below each piston that has to be displaced/moved around, energy being expended in the process. Also, there is less wind resistance for the crank to spin around as well.

A Pan Evac provides some of these same benefits to a much lesser degree, but still helps.

I use both the Pan Evac and PCV on the 440 in my '71 Charger and even the AMC 304 V8 in my CJ-5 Jeep.

Posted By: therocks

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 01:13 PM

Id say you have blowby in the motor.My 440 and the kids original 62 413 run just 2 breathers.His gets tons of miles daily.Never had one pop up.Rocky

Posted By: mark7171

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 02:51 PM

Quote:

I've seen a bad fuel pump cause this. Gas gets pumped into the crankcase, ignites, ballooning the valley pan, valves covers and even the oil pan. It you're running a mechanical fuel pump you may want to take a look at it. Does your oil smell like gas?

You have unburned flammable gases in crankcase.

Blasted up against the intake. How far did the dipstick shoot? 20 ft?

A plug wire must have grounded/arced on the pan.

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9092/intklj.jpg

Posted By: 440FISH

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 04:16 PM

Did it happen cruising around town? or on a wide open pass?

If it happen just cruising around town. I would say you might have some fuel in your oil that did back fire. With no mech. fuel pump, is your choke set too rich? also do you do a lot of short trip that does not let the oil heat up? does the oil smell like fuel?

If it happen after a wide open pass you most likely have a pcv problem. This would happen from time to time on my old jet boat. Make sure your pcv is working well.

Posted By: dOc …

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 04:22 PM

Quote:

I've seen a bad fuel pump cause this. Gas gets pumped into the crankcase, ignites, ballooning the valley pan, valves covers and even the oil pan. It you're running a mechanical fuel pump you may want to take a look at it. Does your oil smell like gas?

Now that would have to be some fuel-rich oil to do that !! PLUS ... oil diluted that badly .. the bearing would be hurt by that fact.

Posted By: MoparDonny

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 06:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I've seen a bad fuel pump cause this. Gas gets pumped into the crankcase, ignites, ballooning the valley pan, valves covers and even the oil pan. It you're running a mechanical fuel pump you may want to take a look at it. Does your oil smell like gas?

Now that would have to be some fuel-rich oil to do that !! PLUS ... oil diluted that badly .. the bearing would be hurt by that fact.

The only thing I could see would be A PCV valve gone haywire. I'm gonna get another one today. My Carb has no choke, Oil is crystal clear and does not stink.
This may have happened on a Drag strip pass, I didn't notice it but I haven't touched the car since early last week.

Gonna go parts store shopping to see who has a good looking PCV. Mine's a plastic Mopar one right now.

Don.

Posted By: dOc …

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 06:16 PM

Don .... a mal-functioning PCV is not going to cause a huge problem like this. The PCV is supposed to provide a gentle flow of air through the engine ... hence the name "positive-crankcase-ventilation".

It takes a HUGE amount of pressure to blow-UP the VP.

Posted By: mark7171

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 07:55 PM

NO BACKfire! I replaced m,any. Chances are you are good.

Its ignition under the pan. Caused by a grounding + wire , choke, coil, alt wire, on the pan.

Pans just don't popup from a backfire.

Posted By: therocks

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 07:56 PM

Ive made a ton of 7K passes with the 440 and street drive.My kids 300 has made probally 300 passes on the OE motor and just 2 breathers and probally 10K street hard miles.Neither has a problem.If you had gas in the oil you would know it.That or try the lighter test and see if it flames quick.Carb would have to dump a ton of gas to cause it.I say blowby.Rocky

Posted By: maximus

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 09:13 PM

I had it happen to me years ago. To much internal pressure, like the other said add another breather to the valve cover. I added one more to mine, it took care of the problem.

Posted By: NITROUSN

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/21/09 10:18 PM

Quote:

Its ignition under the pan. Caused by a grounding + wire , choke, coil, alt wire, on the pan.

Now thats funny. Stay away from my car with that logic.

Posted By: MoparDonny

Re: 440 valley pan damage. - 08/22/09 01:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Its ignition under the pan. Caused by a grounding + wire , choke, coil, alt wire, on the pan.

Now thats funny. Stay away from my car with that logic.

Ha ha ha!!! I really don't know what to think. For the 6 bucks I replaced the PCV anyway and I may just go give it a 6500 RPM rip to see what the hell is up. Like I said, never had this happen before and I have changed NOTHING in 2 years. The only exposed wire I have is a tach wire from the coil, everything else is in a loom. If it was blowby would it not have pushed the PCV out of the grommet or the grommet out of the valvecover, grommet is fairly loose in my MP valvecovers compared to stock. I see guys pushing their dipstick out of the tube and they don't pop valley pans. Beats me!!

Don.