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HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!!

Posted By: kz5rt2

HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/15/09 04:50 PM

Gentleman, something seems to be wrong with my 64 Plymouth running a 440! I have an Eddy 1411 running 0.116 primary and .119 secondary. It seems to cruise fine, but won't get out of it's own way when you step into it!

Gentleman! Here’s what I’m running.

440 bored out 0.060”
Chrysler electronic ignition
440 fuel pump
TRW forged flat top pistons 10.5:1
2.14 Intake 1.81 Exhaust

Comp Cam
Valve Adjustment Hydraulic

I'm attaching a copy of the cam grind.

Any ideas? It also seems to run a bit hot as well.

Attached picture 5419168-CamGrind.jpg
Posted By: Blakcharger440

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/15/09 04:54 PM

What intake do you have on the engine and what gears do you have in the rear differential?
Posted By: kz5rt2

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/15/09 04:55 PM

I have 3:23's.
Posted By: kz5rt2

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/15/09 04:57 PM

Edelbrock RPM performer intake manifold.

I also have the Max Wedge/Superstock exhaust manifolds with three inch mandrel bent with flowmaster mufflers.
Posted By: Max Max Wedge

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/15/09 06:25 PM

How much timing are you running? Is the advance mechanism working properly?
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP! - 08/15/09 07:02 PM

How bad is the detonation?
Just off hand, it looks like the cam (which is smaller than a stock cam) is way too small and with 10.5:1 compression the engine will be sensitive to detonation. The carb jetting actually looks rich too?
Changing to a larger cam should really help.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/15/09 07:15 PM

Wow, the duration of that cam is essentially the same as a stock 440 cam. Not even a HP/6-pack cam, but a stock passenger car 440 cam. That is a very small cam if you've got 10.5 of compression you could do a lot more cam, even with those 3.23's.

Your cam is 212 @050 and I think they say the stock lo-po cam was 210 or so with almost as much lift as your cam. That cam is really a waste with a RPM intake, big-valve heads, 3" exhaust. I would be looking at something more like the lunati voodoo 60303 which is 226/234 @050 or the comp xe275hl 231/237. The comp I mentioned may be a bit much for those gears with a stock converter though.

In any event, there's probably more in your combo than you're getting. Did you dial in your ignition timing? Should be getting ~15* initial and 36-38 total, all in by 2500-3000rpm.

Then start trying to dial in the carb. FWIW the 1411 carb is the electric choke version of the infamous 1407, which definitely has its share of haters on this board, though some people claim to have good luck with them. If you bought the carb new I hope you at least went through it on the inside, they have a reputation for spotty assembely quality. Do you have a jet kit for the carb yet? If not I'd add that to the shopping list. Hard to tune for WOT without a good assortment of jets/metering rods.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/15/09 07:33 PM

How does it act when you floor it? What do the plugs look like? As said what(ign) timing specs? 10.5 advertized or measured CR. Any compression test #'s to post?
Posted By: kz5rt2

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/16/09 02:33 AM

I'll get the numbers to post after Wednesday. I'll also do a compression test and post those numbers too. Can you check back with me after I post later this week?
Posted By: kz5rt2

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/16/09 02:36 AM

BTW - how much more HP do you think I would gain by changing to a larger cam?
Posted By: landon1

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/16/09 03:50 AM

well you lift is pnly at .440"...that is smogger motor material there
Posted By: kz5rt2

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/16/09 04:25 AM

So... If I were to put a new cam in, this would wake up? What do you think the HP increase would be?
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/16/09 04:27 AM

Quote:

So... If I were to put a new cam in, this would wake up? What do you think the HP increase would be?




Hard to predit exactly. Depends on the rest of the combo and your tuning abilities. Could easily be 30-50hp there waiting to be exploited.
Posted By: kz5rt2

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/16/09 04:38 AM

Hard to predit exactly. Depends on the rest of the combo and your tuning abilities. Could easily be 30-50hp there waiting to be exploited.






This is a bummer... However, the engine does sound really aggressive at idle and cruising. Probably anything would sound good with 3" and flowmasters.
Posted By: mickm

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP! - 08/16/09 04:39 AM

Quote:

I have an Eddy 1411 running 0.116 primary and .119 secondary. It seems to cruise fine, but won't get out of it's own way when you step into it!





i don't know this carb specifically, (although as someone else pointed out, it has been labeled with more than it's share of problems), but those jets seem ungodly rich to me.

i don't know of any eddy carb that has jets like that. my 650's came stock with .098 secondaries and .095 primaries. the last competition carter i worked on was running way rich with .110 secondaries (which we dropped to .101) and i think .098[5] primaries.

no doubt that cam is an issue, but i think you need to look at those jets!!!
Posted By: kz5rt2

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP! - 08/16/09 04:46 AM

If the jets were the problem and was indeed too rich, wouldn't I be seeing black smoke out the exhaust? Also, the fatter I was making this the better it was running.

btw - This is brand new engine I installed in my 64 Plymouth that I purchased from one of my dad's buddies. The individual I bought it from must have at least a dozen Mopars or so, and everything he has a wedge in is built similar. I drove his 69 Charger with a similar build and the thing seemed very responsive (however, not as good as my father's GTX was, but nonetheless...)

I'll definitely be posting the results after the dyno. I'll probably be installing a new cam before winter!
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP! - 08/16/09 06:59 AM

Try a tank of E-85 with that setup, and see it it helps. If the float level is too low in the carb, you will never get it to run right, it will alaways seem to be running lean.
Posted By: mickm

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP! - 08/16/09 03:44 PM

Quote:

If the jets were the problem and was indeed too rich, wouldn't I be seeing black smoke out the exhaust? Also, the fatter I was making this the better it was running.






you wouldn't necessarily see smoke. if you really want to check, drive behind it while someone jumps on it, and see what you see then.

this is what the 1411 lists as stock:

Metering Jets - Primary .113, Secondary .107

and you are at a .116 and .119. it's just hard for me to see that you would need to go that rich. usually ootb carbs, (even though they are calibrated for a specific engine, like a sbc), are set up to run rich to begin with. to have to go that many steps above ootb doesn't seem correct, but who knows? each situation is different.

that will be the most important thing from the dyno is the A/F ratio. also get them to run the engine at 2500 or 3000 in cruise for a minute or so, and get the A/F in cruise mode, so you have an idea of where to go there.

post back when you have the results!
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/16/09 11:25 PM

My compression/cam calculations show the cranking cylinder pressure should be about 180 PSI at sea-level? This may be too much for pump gas? With Iron heads I would guess the engine is sensitive to detonation? You may not hear pinging, and a rich mixture and retarded ignition timming may be covering up the problem. That is why I suggested trying the E-85 Fuel, it is 105 octane and runs cooler if detonation is the problem, it should run better. The E-85 needs a richer mixture, but The carb jetting sounds rich to me, so it may be OK with the E-85. Anyhow, trying this test is cheap and easy.
Posted By: MarkZ

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/16/09 11:42 PM

Quote:

Well, I'll definitely know either Wednesday or Thursday as I'll be throwing it on a chassis dyno to tune it up (with someone definitely more experienced than I am).




Where is the dyno at? Thanks...
Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/17/09 01:22 AM

Thats a lot of jet for that motor. You should smell the fuel coming out the exh. I got a fairly hefty 440 with a big cam and 3;55's. We had to jet down the 800 eddy. Went from the 113's to 107's. Car went good but ran real rich. Runs better now with smaller primary jets.
Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/17/09 04:52 AM

Change the cam.

Chuck that carb while you are at it. Pretty much any othr carb that is tuned right and not worn out on the shafts will kill that carb. The smaller Eddy AFB is fine, the AVS ones are suppose to be as well. I've yet to have one of those but a factory AVS is a nice carb. Or you could go with a Holley.

Get the timing right.

You have all the rest of the stuff you need. I would be interested in how many cc's your heads are.
Posted By: kz5rt2

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/17/09 09:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Well, I'll definitely know either Wednesday or Thursday as I'll be throwing it on a chassis dyno to tune it up (with someone definitely more experienced than I am).




Where is the dyno at? Thanks...




Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: HELP! 440 Wedge Can't keep up with a Saab 9-3 HELP!!!!! - 08/17/09 11:17 AM

what carb? what converter and what timing. w/ 3.23's you're never going to be "quick"

more cam, more gear, and a holley 750DP and you'll be good. As for a cam there are a ton to choose from. I'd go for a split duration, 510-520 lift w/ a 110 or better centerline.
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