Moparts

steering box 16:1 or 24:1

Posted By: mcmopars

steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 05/31/09 02:01 PM

im converting from power to manual steering on the duster.i use a smaller 13" steering wheel.any comments or suggestions on which box to get 16:1 or 24:1 is one easier to turn than the other? .borgeson,steer&gear or flaming river?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 05/31/09 03:26 PM

The 16:1 will be a bear esp w a 13" steering wheel. I would suggest a 20:1 either a firm feel box or the 20:1 guts from MP & put it into any common 24:1 box. It'd be cheaper & I have not done it but I dont think it'd be difficult. The flaming river one is sealed w no plug to check/add grease/lube which I dont understand/care for. We went from a 24:1(stock)to a 16:1 manual box on our circle track challenger & it was night/day better in the corners,no more hand over hand excessive movement. A buddy has a 16:1 in a BB valiant & he isn't complaining but he rarely drives it. I have a 24:1 in a light 65 dart & I dont like it, too much effort & I am going to change to power!
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 05/31/09 03:33 PM

I had the 20:1 box (actually the 20:1 sector shaft back when MP sold them) on a 70 Cuda. Manual Steering, 14 or 15" wheel (the basic e-body two-spoke). It was a bear at anything less than a crawl, but GREAT from about 3mph up.

I agree that a 16:1 with a 13 inch wheel will be STIFF.
Posted By: bobby66

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 05/31/09 04:15 PM

I've got the 20 to 1 in my '66 Charger. Drives pretty good.
Posted By: mcmopars

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 05/31/09 05:45 PM

so the 24:1 will be easier to turn?that is my big concern that it will be to heavy for street driving.what about if i use a 14 " steering wheel?
Posted By: 440sat72

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 05/31/09 06:06 PM

i dont know your driving style but i can tell you from my own experience that with a 24:1 box you better pray that you NEVER loose your tail. 5 1/2 turns from lock to lock it's almost impossible to countersteer.

and then, even with 24:1 it is still a bear to steer, parallel parking will make you look like a jerk (at least that's how i felt).

in the end, it's a matter of personal taste. i found it my 24:1 box to be too dangerous and too uncomfortable and went back to power steering. have a firm feel stage 3 power steering pox plus the fast ratio idler an pitman arm (2 1/2 turns from lock to lock) and wouldnt pick anything else even it you gave me money for it.



btw. 16: 1 will give you 3 1/2 turns (like stock powesteering), 20:1 will give you 4 1/2 turns from lock to lock.
Posted By: bobby66

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 05/31/09 06:36 PM

The 24:1 will be easiest. Many, many stock Mopars came with this setup. If You are going to use wide, sticky tires on the front I'd look at power steering.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 05/31/09 07:30 PM

Quote:

so the 24:1 will be easier to turn?that is my big concern that it will be to heavy for street driving.what about if i use a 14 " steering wheel?



what size front tires do you have? Does your duster have a small block or big block?

13" steering wheel looks ridiculous.

A 14" wheel is pretty small too. You will have a tough time seeing the gauges. Start with 15" steering wheel. All the facotry ones are over 16"

What cars/trucks have you driven with manual steering?

If you have the 24:1 in your hand now, just run it and see if you like it.
Posted By: Grizzly

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/03/09 04:16 AM

Quote:

i dont know your driving style but i can tell you from my own experience that with a 24:1 box you better pray that you NEVER loose your tail. 5 1/2 turns from lock to lock it's almost impossible to countersteer.

and then, even with 24:1 it is still a bear to steer, parallel parking will make you look like a jerk (at least that's how i felt).

in the end, it's a matter of personal taste. i found it my 24:1 box to be too dangerous and too uncomfortable and went back to power steering. have a firm feel stage 3 power steering pox plus the fast ratio idler an pitman arm (2 1/2 turns from lock to lock) and wouldnt pick anything else even it you gave me money for it.



btw. 16: 1 will give you 3 1/2 turns (like stock powesteering), 20:1 will give you 4 1/2 turns from lock to lock.



Posted By: GreenBlurr

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/03/09 04:26 AM

Well he's clearly never driven anything with manual steering.
Yes a 13" steering wheel is totally unacceptable with any ratio of manual steering. You are going to want 15" or larger in diameter. And Do not run any wider than 215 series tires on the front (trust me on this one) If you go with the 24:1, you want as large a wheel as is practical. You CAN one hand drive that, but going into curves and whatnot, your hand will end up in seemingly unfamiliar and odd places in the circle of turning. But that's just something that comes with it. Do not get 16:1 if you are not a strong man. No offense intended there, but that ratio of manual steering box is what separates the men from the boys. So you should only use that if you work manual labor for a living, or are a boxer etc.
I personally have 16:1 manual on one of my cars that i street drive all the time right now. People always ask when I put the power steering into it, because i make it look that easy. But I also have the engine compartment lightened up to less weight than a factory small block, and the battery in the trunk. I of course also run 215/70 tires and keep them around 40 psi for easier low speed turning. But I do also work manual labor for a living, and my dad tells everyone I'm built like a brick youknowwhat house, and years of practice with said box all make it kind of a special case.

Track yourself down a 20:1 worm gear if you can find one, and have firm feel install it for ya.
It'll be the best of both worlds. And for the love of god get a REAL factory/factory sized steering wheel.
Posted By: Darryls-Demon

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/03/09 04:36 AM

I have the 20:1 box in my Challenger. 440 With Alum Heads, Alum Rad. battery in the trunk and manual brakes. Oh and so far no hood. The steering is stiff at slow speeds but is nice after that. If I was to do it over I think would have just used a 24:1 box.

Attached picture 5269473-IMG_0815.JPG
Posted By: Den300

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/03/09 07:38 AM

20:1 in c-body and a smaller steering wheel. no problem.
had the "normal" coupler in before and
switched to a flaming river coupler. steering was much easier after.
the flaming river coupler was a BIG improvement!
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/03/09 07:40 AM

Quote:

20:1 in c-body and a smaller steering wheel. no problem.
had the "normal" coupler in before and
switched to a flaming river coupler. steering was much easier after.
the flaming river coupler was a BIG improvement!



Interesting that the change from a coupler to the flaming river universal joint actually made the steering effort significantly easier.
Posted By: goldmember

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/03/09 07:44 AM

What he said
Posted By: roadrunninMark

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/03/09 02:02 PM

which steering u joint did you use?
Posted By: mkdart

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/04/09 03:47 AM

Mancini racing spring flyer has 20:1 worm gear on clearance 139.95. I have one in my smallblock dart and like it. Mike
Posted By: 440sat72

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/04/09 07:31 AM

i'd really recommend to have a ride in a car with manual steering before converting your car ... this could really help you decide wether it's a worthy swap or not.
Posted By: Den300

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/04/09 08:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

20:1 in c-body and a smaller steering wheel. no problem.
had the "normal" coupler in before and
switched to a flaming river coupler. steering was much easier after.
the flaming river coupler was a BIG improvement!



Interesting that the change from a coupler to the flaming river universal joint actually made the steering effort significantly easier.



I guess it was to a non optimized steering geometry.
sometimes (with the old couplers) the insulator felt off
and the alignment never looked 100% straight.
i think it went better because the flaming river one
uses a universal joint that compensates this miss alignment.
last weekend we had the biggest car meeting in north germany
and i tried the super bee from a friend. 24:1 with the
original steering wheel and the normal coupler.
it was as heavy as mine to steer. big surprise for him.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/04/09 01:13 PM

Quote:

i'd really recommend to have a ride in a car with manual steering before converting your car ... this could really help you decide wether it's a worthy swap or not.

best idea yet & you'd then know what the 24:1 boxes feel like
Posted By: Den300

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/04/09 02:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i'd really recommend to have a ride in a car with manual steering before converting your car ... this could really help you decide wether it's a worthy swap or not.

best idea yet & you'd then know what the 24:1 boxes feel like



but keep in mind that weight of the carīs front, tire pressure,
steering wheel diameter und width of the tires play an
important rule too! also if you can wash your arm in a coke bottle or not
Posted By: GTXKen

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/04/09 06:16 PM

I got a 20:1 gear box from steer and gear a while back and I'm happy with it in my car. I have a stock steering wheel. Its a little stif parallel parking but besides that its fine. You don't have to do manual labor have a manual gear box but you can't be a cream puff either. My car is a bit lighter up front but I have wider tires so its sort of a wash. I had a 24:1 box before and would never go back. My buddy has a 16:1 box and its a bear to make a tight turn, then again its not a street car so who cares.

There is lots of room under the hood and a significant weight reduction going to manual. IMO it looks cleaner under the hood.

I still have my power steering and when I'm 75 I'll switch to the firm feel box but for now manual all the way, brakes and steering!
Posted By: 440sat72

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/04/09 08:05 PM

i agree to all of the above beeing said, that the individual combo counts, but so does the personal taste and driving style.

its a little like the question about mufflers beeing too loud or not - what might be a whistle in ones ear will shake the eardrum loose in another (i went through 5 pairs of heavily recommended mufflers until i found the one that floats my boat ).

so if you have a chance to get to drive a munual steered car that'd get my vote
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/04/09 11:03 PM

Quote:


I guess it was to a non optimized steering geometry.
sometimes (with the old couplers) the insulator felt off
and the alignment never looked 100% straight.
i think it went better because the flaming river one
uses a universal joint that compensates this miss alignment.
last weekend we had the biggest car meeting in north germany
and i tried the super bee from a friend. 24:1 with the
original steering wheel and the normal coupler.
it was as heavy as mine to steer. big surprise for him.



Be careful when you ditch the pot coupling, and, especially, the rag joint on cars with rubber isolated K-members or stub frames: The U-joint can't compensate for length variations as the car flexes, eventually causing column and/or chuck bearing problems.

Flaming River gets away with this with THEIR columns since theirs telescope freely (no nylon pin, no rust, etc.)

Rick
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/05/09 03:41 AM

Quote:

(i went through 5 pairs of heavily recommended mufflers until i found the one that floats my boat ).

what'd ya go with?
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/05/09 05:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I guess it was to a non optimized steering geometry.
sometimes (with the old couplers) the insulator felt off
and the alignment never looked 100% straight.
i think it went better because the flaming river one
uses a universal joint that compensates this miss alignment.
last weekend we had the biggest car meeting in north germany
and i tried the super bee from a friend. 24:1 with the
original steering wheel and the normal coupler.
it was as heavy as mine to steer. big surprise for him.



Be careful when you ditch the pot coupling, and, especially, the rag joint on cars with rubber isolated K-members or stub frames: The U-joint can't compensate for length variations as the car flexes, eventually causing column and/or chuck bearing problems.

Flaming River gets away with this with THEIR columns since theirs telescope freely (no nylon pin, no rust, etc.)

Rick



Do you agree and/or have experiance with the universal joint having less friction/resistance than the steering pot coulper.

If you have a pot coupler and you knocked out the nylon pin would that allow for telescoping and no other "issues"????
Posted By: Den300

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/05/09 06:01 AM

Rick,
I have no rubber isolated k-member or rag joint
due to the fact that i drive a 69 c-body.
but you are right, that the flaming river one
canīt compensate flexing because there is
no "play" within their coupler shaft kit.
should be kept in mind for people having this.
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: steering box 16:1 or 24:1 - 06/06/09 11:15 PM

I swapped to manual steering in my 72 Charger. Its a 440 car, weighs 3650lbs empty, has a 13" wheel and 295 tires on the front. Its got a stock box and its a breeze to turn. BUT... i drive it fast, the tail got away from me between two guardrails at 80mph in the canyon and how i saved it i'll never know. I'm a good driver... but there was a lot ov luck involved. I had to crank that wheel FAST. I'll never take that chance again. The suspension guy who installed it for me told me to try out the stock ratio and maybe i'll like it. Nope. Too scary at speed.

I've got a 70 Challenger thats getting a big block, 4spd and some serious rubber on the front (gonna start at sticky 275/40/17's and see how wide i can get). The car wont weigh much, 3300lbs at VERY most, and thats only until i can put some more money into it. This car will also have a smaller wheel... i just like them.

So, Flaming River makes a 16:1 box, but its iron. Anyone have an idea how much heavier it is than my stock aluminum box? Weight savings is a big issue.

Also, if i have a 16:1 box and add the fast ratio pitman and idler, will this work even better? or are there issues involved with that i should know?
© 2024 Moparts Forums