Flat Tappet Guys

How many of you use an additive to your engine oil when you do an oil change? I use 20w-50 Valvoline Racing oil w/o an additive. OK what are your thoughts?

I just run the Driven 10-30 Hotrod oil for the last flat solid I had. Before that I was a Brad Penn guy and it was very good too. No failures with either oil and no additive.

Gus

Didn't Penn buy out the old green oil marketed as Kendall GT1?

Yeah, the old GT-1 became Penn.
Been using the Lucas 10w-30 in my FT stuff, no problems.
I'm about out of my old stash of GM EOS for my '89 Dually - also a FT motor - so I'll be switching it to the Lucas or Driven.
The other 2 cars have roller motors.

10w30 VR-1 in my current 540" Hemi for 5 years now. And in my 500" wedge for a decade before that.

No additives, no problems.

Once it's broken in the need for additives is less important. Too much of some types of oil additives, like zddp, can supposedly lead to the metal corrosion as it alters the oil composition.

Bob is the Oil Guy is a good site to read up on different types of oil and additives. Some real chemist geeks on there that deep dive into things way over the average person's head.

Found this too while reading about camshafts and oil.

https://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/oil_myths.pdf

I've never had a problem with this, and I don't use any of these boutique oils you guys speak of
But I haven't used any recent production, new lifters in probably 10 years.
I have a car that I am doing a cam swap in this spring "because I want to" and I found a set of new MP lifters that are probably 30 years old still in the wrapper. I'll use VR1 for the first couple of oil changes and then probably whatever I can get.

Valvoline VR-1 in the weight YOUR engine needs.
Why not stick with a winner, There's no magic elixirs.

My 2 cents.

Joe

Brad Penn with no issues for 10 years on a Racer Brown solid cam and lifters that are 40 years old from a different long block...

VR-1 here. my machinist has lost a few motors on the dyno. he uses the penn oil. he is quite leery of current flat tappet offerings. When doing a stock rebuild he has someone grind the cams with added taper on the lobes to aid the spinning of the lifter (might be howard's). Anything aftermarket is typically roller.

I typically run whatever is the cheapest 10w30, but my lifters are 73 years old. It's not really an oil issue.

I hate to start this, but I build a few engines a year, The only FT cam I ever lost was with Penn oil at the insistence of my buddy. I typically use VR1. It was also a comp cam. He also broke it in and he is a Chevy guy who ALWAYS spins them over with ignition disconnected until he gets oil pressure prior to firing. I've told him about this, and its like talking to a brick. I feel like I need to knock on some wood now.

I lost a flat tappet Comp a number of years ago using Brad Penn....still not sure why. It sure wasn't my 1st rodeo putting an engine together or doing proper cam break-in...it had about 800 miles on it when it went. Cured it with a solid roller....no more issues.

I use Hot Rod & Classic Car 10W-30 Motor Oil in my old stuff. High in zinc.

Oil is just not the big deal that it has been made out to be. There are many YouTube videos where guys are showing evidence of poorly machined lifter faces right out of the box. No magic oil is going to help with that problem.

I recently learned the 4.0 Jeep inline 6 was a Hyd Flat tappet engine all the way to its final year of production in 2006. This is a testament that once broken in a higher zinc content is not needed.

Those Jeep engines are pretty tough and simple as well. Should be a goal to design engines like that, but instead we get them as complex as humanly possible it seems.


Some videos that point more towards machining errors being the cause rather than oils, or oil additives.

https://youtu.be/e96szd_HbwE?si=7X6jbY7H09uzzwI-

https://youtu.be/pP_GYZWcpok?si=5X94dRnJM2jYqwZ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgMYbNX2DMY

https://youtu.be/LJPnCA8N-P8?si=u_nsCPuIvZzAuQrQ

https://youtu.be/UPvF4FgJYlk?si=BEnGvqDZnYH5HMyU

Powell Machine and MyVintageIron7512 on Youtube have several good videos on this machine and metallurgy of cams and lifters as well.

I used the Driven Hot Rod oil on my last SFT, and Brad Penn on the previous two HFT's. The new SFT that is in there now will also be Driven HOT ROD with no additives after the initial break in.

In addition to what Neil said - and which I agree with - valve spring pressures seem to play a part.
My old plow truck - '79 K10 with a GM Goodwrench FT crate motor - had no problems with any decent on-sale 10W30.
The valve springs on it were just the stock production stuff...stronger than a ball-point-pen, but hardly high-RPM stiff.
That said, the engine was probably from the mid-'90s era, and it seems likely now that quality control has slipped since then.

I had a lobe go flat on a good FT cam after putting on new cylinder heads that had hydraulic roller springs on them. FWIW I’ve been using a half bottle of Lucas 10063 per oil change ever since the EOS supply went dry

I use Rislone ZDDP Supplement with Mobil 1 Synthetic to get my zinc levels up to mid 1300s.

There are a couple of points that I believe are worthy of consideration.

First, comparing stock applications to hotter builds is not apples to apples. Hotter cams have faster ramp rates, higher lifts, and require more valve spring pressure to control. So, an oil or lifter that would give excellent long term service in a stock application, might not fare so well in an application with the above added stresses.

Second, Bob The Oil Guy cautions against adding any additives to your oil. He has found that not all combinations work well together. Some can actually offset others.

For flat tappets, particularly in hot rod applications, having the right oil is critical. But as mentioned before, even the best oil can only do so much. Quality of the cam core, the particular quality of the grind and of course the quality of the lifters have all come into question for years now. And let's not forget that roller lifters have had their own share of problems on the street.

Personally, on a number of different forums, I read many, many guys who have run the Valvoline VR-1 with no problems. And that has been my experience with both my wedges and my Hemis. It just seems hard to justify spending more money on oil with the many years of success by many guys with the Valvoline. The price and ease of access FOR MOST GUYS is the only reason that it leads my list of oils that others have ran too with good results.

Just my

There are different types of cam cores out there as well as lifter manufactures and the quality is not all equal anymore. Many of these bigger cam companies have been bought and sold and the guys who used to do it right have retired, or were forced out during mergers.

On the Speed-Talk website you can read all sorts of good info about cam cores (P55) oil additives, where good lifters come from etc..

People are having even low lift RV type cam and lifters fail and not just the race level parts so it's a problem for everyone to be wary of.

I like the idea of the hardened foot on the GM taxi cab lifters in the one video I posted. Other companies should offer that as an option.

Seems like everyone has a different opinion as to what to use and not use. For many years now I have been using Rotilla T 15W 40 with STP. My SFT cam has been in this engine and others since 2008. It’s still good.

The cams he had go flat were also Comp Cams, they are not the quality they used to be since being bought out several years back. the motors were broke in with single springs as well

VR-1 here, but I have the EDM lifters. No issues, but if the lifters don’t spin while turning it over by hand. I figure out why and fix it.

VR1 10-w30 for me. I tried last few changes running it with one quart of 20w-50 for a witch’s brew I call 13w-35.

I’ll note the Valvoline website says modern oils have other additives and they do not think a lack of zddp is an issue for flat tappets. I’m not chancing it.

SFT in my 528 Hemi, I run 20W50 VR1 and sometimes cut it by half with cheap oil from Dollar General or whatever is cheapest. For stock engines with weak valvesprings, I just straight up run the cheapest oil I can find in the preferred weight.

I saw on a few threads on other online hot rod forums where a few engine builders have started dissembling and inspecting the new flat tappet lifters before they were installing them. The report is that many have come in without the springs inside, or had the plunger in cocked so it couldn't move, or the fill port plugged up or sticky so it couldn't pump up with oil. Apparently, they have come across enough poorly assembled liters to warrant dissembling and inspection of each one before installing them.

I have no idea if that is factual or not, just passing info I've read on. In the grand scheme of things, it makes more sense having lifter assembly issues then it does having intermittent issues with oil break down on one cam lobe or an individual cam lobe hardness issue.

In this day and age, I think I would take the time to dissemble the lifters and have a look see at all the lifters I was putting against a new cam. I'd only have to see one poorly assembled lifter to make it always worth the time to check them. Its a pain, but given the number of cam/lifter failures going on these days, an once of prevention might be the difference between being happy and not being happy.

I never used to hear about spinning lifters in the past (and I've built a few engines) but so far have yet to have a problem with a flat cam besides 1 fuel pump lobe on a /6...... But I didn't know that spinning an over by hand would be enough for the lifters to spin in their bores....
I'm about to do a cam swap in a plain old 318 with hydraulic lifters using a melling cam and MP lifters from 25-30 years ago.

Hughes Engines website has a really good few pages of cam and lifter installations, decreeing cams and such, use to think it was overkill but I ran a lot of his cams and never ever had any problems when using his instructions. These were all pretty aggressive cams and edm solid lifters. He was a big preacher of spinning the cam with a ratchet and making dang sure all the lifters turned. Very good articles, his oiling system instructions were a mere couple of paragraphs not in the oiling systems article but in the stroker assembly article iirc.

All flat tappet lifters ‘roll’ around the cam, do it slide. Cam turns on outside of lifter not center.

Problem with VR 1 is I don't see it on the shelf anywhere locally.
I ordered my last batch via Amazon

I use Valvoline VR1 conventional oil in my flat tappet motors. The only reason they don't have rollers in them is they're old and I haven't had a reason to go into them.

Welcome to old cars 101.

I drive a 51 Plymouth, almost nothing is off the shelf for it anymore.

Yep, I mark each lifter edge with a sharpy towards the center of the valley. Go on my way setting lash and see where the lines are after. A Hyd cam you won’t have the “true” force on the lifter because of no oil pressure. But it is close enough.

I buy all my oil and filters from Amazon. The prices are right, delivered to my door in a couple days and I get to avoid that dump known as Walmart.

My local NAPA has the VR1 for me in a day or two.

Joe

I use the Driven oil as recommend by my machine shop -Rhyne Racing- No additive used
Mopar 590 flat tapped cam. Had the intake off last year the cam looks perfect. Keith

https://drivenracingoil.com/i-30497837-xp4-15w-50-conventional-racing-oil.html

I use Driven break in oil, then switch to their high zinc Hot Rod oil. No additives, no problems.