Hemi ray barton valve covers in e body

Does anyone have a hemi e body with the ray barton valve covers? If so, do they hit the inner fenders? Originally I had a small block k member with the Schumacher conversion mounts and now I have a hemi k member conversion from Al Debevec and the passenger side valve cover hits the inner fender and blower motor with both setups. Any trick to getting it to fit without denting the inner fender?

B-Body can have some of the same problems. There is a special right side cover that Indy makes Did you check with Barton?

He told me that he hasn't had any issues and that they fit. However, I have had nothing but issues with the motor since I bought it and they have been zero help , so I'm not sure if they're just saying they fit fine.

I have a pair of Barton covers on my mock up display Hemi in the Racement (racing themed basement), but never used them to mock up in my B Bodies or E Body. I do have the tapered passenger Indy covers on my Hemi in my E Body. They do give you any extra clearance that you may need. If you look closely you can see the tapered section in the center.

If they don't fit then they don't fit regardless of what the mfg tells you. Believe your own eyes not what the sales guy says.

i would expect a little more from Barton BUT I cannot count the number of time in the last 25 years I have been told I WAS THE ONLY ONE HAVING THE PROBLEM
I actually NAILED Hooker headers on newly designed BB corvette side pipes that didn't fit. SOS as above. Caught them on a corvette forum wanting an original BB car to check side pipe fitment. They did compensate me quite well

If other have had the same issue I would suggest collecting some info and going to Ray himself keep us posted

Here are some pictures of the clearance issues. They're not even close to fitting.

They are thick enough castings that you could mill/clearance them to fit and re-wrinkle paint.

Didn't the 64-65 Hemi cars modify the shock tower for clearance? I think they cut it out and flipped it over or something?

If my memory serves me correctly on the two I have installed, they both took special mods. These were stage V valve covers but they are probably the same. We used the stock k frame on both of these cars. One had Arruzza mounts. It was a 68 charger. All we had to do to it was put a 1/4” steel plate spacer between the rubber and the steel mount. It cleared. The e body had Schumacher mounts and the first one did not come close. He called Schumacher and they had a special mount to raise the right side. It still may have taken a spacer, I’m not sure. I’ve got a picture on my phone I’ll try and post. The 65 SS cars had a right side shock tower that was modified and recessed right at the point wher the shock bolts to the tower. The valve covers cleared, you just could not pull them off for the tech inspector at the track. I know you said you have a hemi k frame but my point is you will have to space the right side higher in order for it to fit. This picture is after the mod. I don’t have a picture of the valve cover but it was about the same.

What kind of issues are you having with the engine?

might also be able to cut for clearance on the Valve cover and fill with a small section round tube or curved flat stock. Would have to make sure there was no inside interference which is doubtful

Were you able to get the driver's side insulator to sit flat? I recall you reported that issue last Fall.

there is no such thing as a "bolt on part".

FWIW...I have the Indy valve covers on my hemi...not the ones w/ the clearance notch built into them. I heated and clearanced the inner fender near the shock stud w/ a BFH. I removed the heater & blower motor assembly years ago, so I can't comment on clearance there.

The engine only has 150 street miles on it, zero track time or full throttle blasts and absolutely no beating on the car, and it has already had 6 different rear mail seals installed in it, 4 by me and 2 by Ray himself, 2 different real main seal retainers, and it just pours oil to the point it can't even be driven. Tons of blowby coming out of the breathers , 2 different sets of piston rings installed in it, same issues and this was all at my expense on a brand new engine. I told them I still have the same issues after pulling out the engine 3 different times and going back and forth all the way to their shop just to basically be told tough luck. If you would like to know more about it, I can PM you details. I don't want it to look like a post about me bashing someone or a company.

Lots of places are having issues getting rear main seals to not leak. Guess it's just poor quality seals. Not taking up for Ray, just saying.
Sorry to hear you've had so much trouble w/ it. I know it sucks after making such an investment.

I've been real busy with work, so I haven't had time in the past couple of months to work on it. I'm finally getting back around to it now, but no, the drivers side still sits up about 3/8" to 1/2" off of the k frame. Even if I get this to drop down all of the way, I still don't think it'll be enough to correct the passenger side. I initially considered adding a spacer between the mount, but started to wonder if it would cause any drive train alignment issues since the motor would be shimmed up on the one side. I'm wasnt sure if it would affect the transmission or driveline angle since technically the whole assembly would now be raised on the one side.

I was wondering who's block he used in the build.

World aluminum block

For the spacer, did you put it between the rubber mount and engine or the rubber mount and the k member.

I put it between the rubber mount and the steel part of the engine mount. Take the rubber biscuit by itself, get some 1/4”plate the size of the rubber and drill a big hole for the bolt then bolt the steel part that goes to the block.

this may be way off base, but did you try an adjustable PVC valve on your engine ? [i think m.e. wagner makes those]
i bought two of them for my project engines [one for my charger's 440, the other for my "humpback" delivery that will have a ??? stroker engine], but i am nowhere near ready to try these to see what they may, or may not, do according to wagner's description on their web site.

Yes, I installed one of the adjustable pcv valves. It did seem to help a little bit, but it still leaks. Another issue is that the engine is only making about 4" to 5" of vacuum at idle, so I'm not getting the full benefit of the pcv valve drawing out any extra crankcase pressure

as you have experience with the adjustable PVC valve, what kind of difference did it make ?
i know each combination is/will be different, i'm just curious as to how that affected your combination as it is now.
a vacuum pump may be in your future. you might try an electric GM pump first, as they are relatively [?] cheap compared to other brands, and you may be able to grab a used one from a yard near you if possible, to see what a pump will do with your combination.
thank you for keeping us informed of your progress.

It seemed to have less blowby and the leak wasn't as bad. Gene, the guy who makes the valve, suggested I run the valve at full flow to give me the most ventilation possible due to the size of the engine. I have considered a vacuum pump, but I viewed it as a band aid to the problem. It shouldn't be leaking at all.

WOW, that's surprising to me Did they dyno the motor ? Blow by is only caused by one thing, combustion pressure leaking into the crankcase. I'd be a bit less understanding with the assumed $$ involved. I'm smelling

Even my Cummins built motor didn't have blowby or leaks. The first two did flatten the cams but they were promptly repalced and i was well compensated

Yes, the motor was dynoed and they claimed that it didn't leak while it was running, however within the first minute of running after reinstalling the engine, there was a puddle of oil on the floor. I'm not sure if something is machined wrong with the block or if it is still blowby that is causing the leak. I unfortunately had to accept my loss in getting it fixed by them and eat the Bill. I'm just trying to keep moving forward and get it straightened out so that I can enjoy the car.. That's still my main issue to fix once I get the motor to sit correctly and the clearance issues solved.

I had some luck with a Graph Tite rope seal, was not 100% leak free but was 99.8%.

There might be , I remember back around the time we did the Enginemasters challenge that Dan (member PerformanceOnly) was telling me about a rear main seal leak he had on one of his customers build , it was a member here I think, that ended up being the rear main seal bore or cap being slightly off set in the block ... the only way to see it was to have the crank out though .

I am sorry to ask, but is there more to this story than we have been made aware of? I ask as this started out as valve cover issue that now has evolved into a substantial rear main leak as well as a substantial blowby issue all of which should have been caught on the dyno I have never heard a bad thing about barton until this post

It's been a problem since the first 50 miles of driving and is still ongoing. I was only answering a members question in this post about what issues I've had with the engine. I said I would PM anyone if they were that interested in the issues I've had because I didn't want to change the topic of the valve cover clearance issues and also, I'm not the type of person to go bad mouthing someone online. I can send you a private message about that if you care to know more. Thanks for everybody's help so far, I appreciate it.

Please do

#1 - The valve covers are not made by Barton. They are Stage V products branded as Barton.
#2 - I have them in an E-body with a Debivec k-frame.
#3 - I had both inner fenders cut and rewelded. A V-cut with a horizontal slice above. Weld up the shock hole, redrill stud hole approx 1 inch toward outer fender. Still close, but clear. I did my homework before I specified those covers.

Hemiroid motors, what problems are YOU talking about

Are the any alignment issues involved with the drive train when installing the spacers on the mounts?

I ended up installing a 1/4" thick shim on the passenger side mount as recommended and the valve cover no longer hits the inner fender or blower motor. However the drivers side is still not even close to fitting. I went to install the manual steering box and the drivers side still has about a 3/4" gap between the mount and the k member but it can't drop down any further because the header tube is not even close to clearing the steering box. TTI claims they fit both power and manual steering cars and these headers won't even come close to clearing the tiny manual box. I'm not sure if it's defective engine mounts or the headers, however on thing I am convinced is that all of these companies charging top dollar for their products are putting out complete junk products. Of course I can return any of these parts either, more money that I have to eat.

If you haven't already done so, Try removing the shim on the R side, It may be causing the steering box / header issue. IF so may require modifying the valve cover as previously mentioned , keep us posted

The steering box hits the header both with the shim and without.

I don’t have any more advice to give you. I used the shumaker mounts with TTI headers and the driver side fit fine. The 1/4” spacer on the pass side was all I needed. No header issues at all.

you could try sliding the K member towards the passenger side to gain clearance.
this could cause V cover clearance problems on passenger side.

sounds as though you are being backed into a corner

With the R valve cover and shim removed does the header still hit? and if so, by how much? how much lift on the on the L side is required to gain adequate clearance?
While in that lifted position how level is the carb flange ?

Lot's of questions but trying to establish what is the path of least resistance to correct the issues

The steering box hits the header with or with the shim. I need the engine to be lifted atleast 3/4" in order to not have the header hit the steering box, however, by doing this, the stud on the engine mount isn't even close to being long enough to fit through the bracket that bolts to the engine and although I haven't tested it yet, I highly doubt that I will have any hood clearance to shut the hood. Surprisingly, with the engine mount having the big gap on the drivers side, the engine sits almost perfectly level. It also sits very high, to the point that the fan blade is almost above the radiator. It can't go down any further though because of the steering box.

What transmission and cross member? You might be to low and that incorrect radiator may be an illusion.

Stock hemi 4 speed and original transmission crossmember.

Boy have you ever had the fitment issues with this car. Just seems odd that most people easily overcome fitment issues. Any idea if the car has been wrecked?

No accidents. Car sat since 1981 before I got it. I had to slightly clearance the power steering box that was originally in the car for the headers to fit with the original small block k member with the Schumacher conversion mounts. I thought for sure once I had the hemi k member conversion done by al debevec and the manual steering box, which is half the size installed, all of my issues would be fixed. They're even worse now. Everyone praises his work and they don't have any issues. I called him about the issues and he said he builds them on a jig and actually tests the fit with TTI headers. I don't know if it's a bad set of mounts or headers at this point. With a hemi and headers, I can understand a slight bit of rubbing somewhere or maybe a small ding needed in a header tube, but even with a manual box, the engine can't even physically be installed in the car.

Al did my wedge to hemi conversion for my 69 Charger. I have the TTI 2 1/8 headers. First was the valve cover right side. Got a new clearanced one from Indy. Then the left header was hitting the pitman arm. TTI said it was the K-Frame. It measured perfect from what they have listed for locating from TTI. I was lucky and found a cherry original Hemi K and stuck that in. Guess what same thing. Al's work was spot on. TTI took the left side back and sad wow we made a mistake. So I get it back and pitman is fine but now its hitting the power gear box. TTI just said send it back. I made a hardwood mold and massaged the header in my press along with grinding the gear box. I must of dropped the K out 3 times before I was able to get about 1/8 to 3/16 clearance. I was not sending them back again. The guy that bought Al's K from me said it worked perfect for him. Al will tell you straight out he hates headers as every one is different. Just my 2 cents

Take a look at the distributor height to R F'well that thing is way too high in the front IMO

Thats why I asked about the trans and crossmember. If it was low back there it would raise it in the front. He claims its all ok back there. He is already hitting the gear box so lower is not an option. There is something wrong somewhere.

I trust Al's work 100%. I'm thrilled with the quality of it. When I received the k member from him, the drivers side insulator was broken right in half in shipping. I guess I'm lucky that it broke then, because I called him and he said he got a bad shipment of mounts and others had the same issue after they were already installed and they broke so I sent them back and got a refund from him. He didn't want to send another set because they were all having issues.. He said they were just stock style hemi mounts and any other stock style would work. I ended up ordering the polyurethane mounts from Mancini which look like the Schumacher poly loc style and are maybe just removed. Right out of the box, the drivers side didn't fit right and would bottom out on the mounting pad on the k member. There was too much extra metal on the insulator bracket so I ground it down so that it would sit flush on the k member. However, whenever I set the weight of the engine down onto the drivers side, it shifts the top part of the drivers side mount up about a 1/2" or so as seen in the pictures in the beginning of the thread. Now with the box installed, it's about a 3/4" gap and the bolt that goes through the k member won't even line up.

100%. Sometimes walking away for a few days or another pair of eyes will reveal the issue. Myself, I would come back to the valve cover issue at a later time and get the motor in where it is supposed to be.
I had a Magnum force FE with a 472 dome by another shop and it was a flippin mess. Of course we were the only ones with this problem . Original owner 69 Charger never been wrecked. Took a lot of hours to get things sorted out.

Another though just occurred With the motor in place as it is, what is the oil pan to crossmember clearance ?
Remove the L header and R valve cover set it back in place and measure again. While it won't resolve the issue it may give a clue.
i will also mention we have had to move header tubes or dimple them more than once.

I do have a long story on Hooker header side exhaust that I'll save for another time. I will say they did compensate me once they were caught with their pants down. Another case of "You're the only one with the problem" REALLY??? 💩💩💩💩

i commented in another thread : "as the buy-outs continue, the quality goes down" [or something like that]
as was mentioned above about a shipment of bad mounts.........
as to the OP, there is a diagram in either the engine book or the chassis book published by DC and MP, that gives engine location referenced from the crank centerline.
if it were me, i would get the engine set in that position, then see what is amiss with the mounts.
maybe the 318 K mount is off a tad, allowing the 318 to fit ok enough, but causing issues with the hemi and the conversion mounts.

I have plenty of oil pan clearance all around. I'm not sure what I could check with the transmission crossmember. It’s the cross member that was in the car when I got it and I installed a brand new mount, so it's not worn out or sagging. At this point, I can even live with the valve cover hitting the inner fender for now, I just need to get the engine sitting correctly on the drivers side so that I can bolt it in. Denting the header tube in isn't an option as I would have to almost dent it in almost 50% shut to get the clearance. The front bolt is the first part that hits on the top of the steering box but even if I was to grind some material off the box, it would help but it still wouldn't be enough to allow the engine to drop all the way down. I don't gave any other mounts to try for comparison either. Even with the same k member before the conversion and the Schumacher conversion mounts, it always sat very high in the engine bay.

It sat like this with both the k member pre conversion and Schumacher mounts and with the k member after the hemi conversion and original style mounts

What is the distance from the center of the crank to the top of the k-frame?

It's hard to get an exact measurement, but roughly 4 1/2" From the center of the crank to the top part of the crossmember directly underneath the crank.

That means your engine is sitting to low according to TTI. Which makes no sense. A 440 wedge or hemi should sit at the same height. You could lay a 2 x 4 across the fenders and measure down to the ID boss on the block. Then hopefully another member could measure his for a comparison. Also what manual gear box are you using? Might all be in the header.

Interesting, I wonder where they get the measurements from? I'd have to add a 3/4" shim under each mount. It would definitely fix my steering box issues, but I wouldn't be able to shut the hood and there wouldn't be enough of a stud on the insulator sticking through the bracket to bolt it down.

It's a pst manual box.

Take the gear box out and drop the motor on to the mounts. Pull the crank pulley and measure crank center to top of K and the left to right measurements.

i believe the chart you show was the one i was thinking about.
thanks for coming up with that.

Sorry you're having so much trouble. I have a Hemi with wedge mounts in my Cuda. Takes custom headers. #1 goes under the A arm and #8 goes out the inner fender. Factory valve covers only have about a 1/4 clearance on fender well but tons of room on blower.

I haven't had a chance to get anymore measurements yet, but I've been looking at everyone else's hemi pictures that were posted and they all appear to sit almost perfectly level. Mine definitely sits lower in the back. I'm not sure how to check if that's what's causing it to sit high in the front. It's the same transmission crossmember that came in the car when I bought it and it has a brand new transmission mount. I checked the measurements on the crossmember and according to brewers performance 's website, it's a 70-72 ebody or 71-72 b body crossmember and my car is a 73. I'm not sure if they had a different height since the transmission mounts are listed the same for 70-74 e bodies.

You need to get the measurements. Not sure on the differences on the transmission cross member 70-72 vs 73-74. There was a difference on K-frames B to E body on gear box mounting. Even though they will bolt in there is a difference. Just maybe thats a part of your issue?

I called Al after I first saw the steering box issue since that was my first thought, that maybe I got someone else's k member out of a b body. He said I got the same one that I sent him. I pulled the steering box and k member back out and I'm going to reinstall everything and then I'll get some more measurements.

did you get it in yet ??

No, not yet. I've been busy at work, so I haven't had any time lately. I will update this when I do I hopefully the next couple of days.

I took some measurements as accurately as I could laying underneath the car and according to tti's chart, it's sitting just about 1/4 " high on the A measurement, but the C measurement is right on. I can't accurately measure the B measurement due to the valve cover hitting on the passenger side not letting the engine sit where it naturally would. The engine does have a very noticeable lean downward on the transmission side, so I don't know how to determine if that is caused by it being too high in the front or if it's due to something being too low on the transmission mount side.

I would pull the right cover and set the motor into the mounts. Then I would take the transmission mount loose and jack the transmission up . Then see what changes on fitting and the measurement from crank center to k-frame. If someone had a transmission output center line to floor tunnel it might shed some light.

I ended up jacking the transmission up, and it only raised the back of the engine up, but did nothing to the front. Even with the transmission jacked up, the engine is still very low in the back. Does the engine actually sit level in the car? I've looked everywhere for a transmission centerline measurement and called where I bought the mount from, but I can't find anything.

I've never put a World Products block in a car. But I tried to put an Indy block in a car and had an experience like yours. I have 3 blocks here. One Street hemi, one mega block and a new KB. All three are different widths at the motor brackets. .600" variance between the 3. I don't know what would happen if you put 2 of those blocks in a car. I have put a 1995 hemi block in a 70 Superbird with Schmacher mounts on a wedge K-frame using Stage V valve covers. (Stage V made your valve covers for Ray Barton.) It was tight but everything fit perfect. (I think I had to use bolts instead of studs in the value covers to get them on.) I think the Schumacher mounts were one of the best fitting/performing parts of the 200 or so parts I bought to do the car. Someday I will find a set of real prints for a Hemi block and then I can tell you the problem.

I take that back, I have 4 blocks. The other was a Callies. I think it was the narrowest. (I wish I would have written those 4 numbers down.) It seems nobody has a set of REAL prints from Ma Mopar or all these blocks wouldn't be different. (Russ said, oh yes the mounts are in the same place.) Yeah, right.

I’ll bet you a dozen donuts that a RB/B engine crank centerline would be very close if not he same as a Hemi.

Same for the angle.

Reason being the trans doesn’t know what engine it’s attached to and driveshaft angles should be the same between all the engines.
And in production we had to worry about steering column clearance, radiator, hood, etc.

Find a similar car with a RB/B engine and work from there.

The TTI headers chart lists that small block, big block and hemus all have the same crankshaft centerline. I'm trying to find the centerline of the transmission so that I can determine whether the engine leaning back is due to the engine being too high, if the transmission is too low or perhaps both. The measurements I took for the crankshaft were pretty close, just slightly high. I'm not sure if the engine needs to sit lower or the transmission needs to be higher to correct this and other clearance issues.

That's interesting that they're that far off. I hope that mine isn't one of the ones that are way off. I've always wondered to myself if my block was machined wrong due to all of the other issues with it.

I'm not saying your block is machined wrong. I'm saying the aftermarket blocks are ALL machined wrong. Ma Mopar needs to send me a REAL set of prints.

Put a call out on this site for the measurement from the center of the output shaft to the floorpan and output shaft center to one rocker sill weld flange.
That should get you close.

I posted a question on here a couple of days ago, but still no response. I even tried contacting brewer's performance but they couldn't give me any info either

Just a suggestion as some people might be away, PM the guys with the Hemi E Bodies that have already posted in this thread.

just a thought, have you tried taking the headers completely off, then sitting the motor with mounts onto the k frame? then once successful, you might find that your passenger clearance problem may have been solved. it still might be tight and the motor may wind up where it should be. then try fitting headers onto the motor. I don't know if your headers are single tubes or welded together, but single tubes are much easier to install. even though my car is an original hemi car once I put those same valve covers on they were almost hitting the shock tower. when I need to take them off, I have to remove the distributor & hope the exhaust rockers are in the correct clearance position. I know it's a royal pain in the butt, but once the motor is in place maybe the headers, or several tubes are wrong. just my .02 cents dave ss/ea #1355

You asked in a previous post if the engine is supposed to sit level in the car. I would say no. I would say that the carbs are supposed to sit level. If you look at a street hemi intake I think you will find it is taller in the back than in the front. I don't have a street hemi intake here to measure but a 65 race hemi intake is higher in the back. It is on a 2-1/2 degree incline. I presume this is to make the carbs level. So when you look at the valve covers they should be lower in the back by 2-1/2 degrees. Just my opinion.

i have found most factory installations are as you have said, 2-3 1/2 [and a couple at 4] degrees downward slope on the china walls [as well as said valve covers] which makes the carb mounting surface level.
now with that said, some aftermarket intakes have more or less slope on the carb mounting surface.
you may, or may not, be able to level out the carb mounting surface by shimming the transmission mount a bit.

I haven't tried it with the headers off yet. It's worth a shot, however it's hits so much on the drivers side that I don't think it will make a difference. I'll get a measurement on the angle too,

I'm seriously late to the party here, but I dealt with this years ago. I'd already read the Barton valve covers were made by Stage V. Barton rep confirmed for me.
I'd also read about cutting a T-slot (actually a V with a horizontal on top), push in, weld up on inner fender. Also welded up and redrilled shock mount holes. I had that done when I had the engine compartment painted.
Now I can slip fingers between pass-side valve cover and inner fender. Still close on heater motor, but fits.
I had this on Schumacher conversion mounts, then swapped to Devebic K-frame and original mounts. I'll look for the reference article I used.
Good luck!

Did your clearance issues go away after the Debevec k member swap? I originally thought that all of my clearance issues were due to the Schumacher conversion mounts, but even after swapping in a Debevec k member and stock style mounts, I still have the same issues but now it even hits the smaller manual steering box.