Recommendations on clutches

I took apart my 71 RR clone as it has a severe rear main seal leak; no surprise the clutch is also soaked and in my opinion, now useless.

Looking for recommendations on a replacement. It is currently a 10.5" B&B with a McLeod disc. Engine is a bone stock '71 440, 23 spline 833, 8 3/4" rear w/ 3.55 gears. I run radial T/A's on the car, size 275/60/15 - this really is a street car that will never see slicks.

I do want something that will bite though as I do pound on it - recommendations Gents?

I would go Centerforce.

If U want to replace it with a Borg Beck pressure plate, there are only (2) suppliers Hays and Ram clutches..

Just my $0.02...

. X 2. Dual friction.

X3. I've had one behind a low deck stroker in my street toy for years....zero issues.

I’ve installed one McLeod diaphragm type in a 70 RR. The release rate was terrible. It was light sure enough. That’s what the lady wanted. It was too fast and you could not slowly release it so the car was not smooth. I’ve talked to McLeod about is and there is nothing they can do about that. I had another customer with a 69 Bee. It already had a Centerforce diaphragm. It was better but not by much. Another friend bought a brand new Centerforce and hated it so bad, he install a parts store Borg and Beck style. It’s much better he says. My last build had a Centerforce in the car when it got to the shop. It was fair but same issue. The release rate is off from stock Mopar. A diaphragm clutch is a Chevy design. It’s just a different release rate. So this last customer bought a Ram Borg and Beck. He loves it. I drove it. It works like a Mopar clutch should. Now the absolute best clutch I’ve ever driven is a McLeod twin disc that was the Long style fingers. It is as smooth as butter, not hard to push down, the release point is perfect and best of all, it holds a 680 HP hemi! It is a little pricey. So my vote is for the Mopar style Borg and Beck from Ram.

We use the Ram Powergrip HD's and they take some abuse. I saw a brand new Centerforce have the pedal go to the floor on the fourth pass of a mid-13 second car on polyglas tires this fall...

Ran Mc Cleod for years.Then went center force.Will never go back to another.Mines been in for years now and still like new.Only time Ive seen people have problems is not setup or broke in correct.That and many are still used to having a ton of leg pressure

They do that with the over center spring still in place. Funny action until you get that out of there. Can’t adjust it to work right, goes to floor. All of that.

Over the years we have run different brand clutches in our RoadRunner...
Hays, CenterForce, McLeod..
The best one for endurance was the McLeod, worst was the CenterForce.
Then last year we changed out the 4-speed to an manual w/overdrive, and since we had the drive train apart we decided to install a new clutch pressure plate, disk and flywheel. But found out that McLeod no longer supplied a Borg Beck pressure plate so we talked with Ram and they put together a mixed kit and install went fine. All is well, clutch grabs good, reasonable pedal pressure.

Just my $0.02...

I would call Rochester Clutch and Brake, Rochester NY and get a custom 10.95 with a 6 puck disk

have installed MNAY C/F Dual frictions in customers car in 25 or so years, One problem. A mis sized disc to PP.
So I say CF

Just one thing, dual friction clutch dics hate stop and go driving.

X2 on the McLeod Twin Disc. Icing on the cake is the American Powertrain Hydraulic throw-out bearing set-up. Never had much luck with anything else, and the sintered puck clutches I tried chattered very bad on release.

If you do switch to a diaphragm type pressure plate, make sure and remove the over center spring on the clutch pedal under the dash

I will NEVER again use a diaphram Chivvy type clutch, borg and beck or give me death...

How about Long (Ford) style?

Never had a problem with diaphragm clutches, they were factory on a lot of Mopars BTW, nor have I ever had to remove the over center spring. But then again, I do not use the pedal free play method of setting up the clutch either. I use plate departure and go for .060" of a gap with the pedal to the floor.

Long is still a three finger style, no issue with it! Don't know why people want a weak diaphram style, I am just old school I guess, never had an issue with a B&B...

At 68 I too am Old school but after my first C/F install I started asking myself why i needed my L leg to be so much bigger LOL. Then there was repairing reinforcing the frame pivots etc. I finally caved and the customers have been very happy with them

Ha. Ha. Now there’s a MAN I can respect. He’s not afraid to throw out the gauntlet on the internet and start the party! I agree wholeheartedly. I just tried to be less abrupt! Way to go Rhino. I still use and old 10.5 green back from the Mopar performance catalog years ago. Of coarse my left leg is bigger than my right. Lol.

What Mopar has a factory diaphragm clutch? I’ve never seen one on a 65 to 71 of the muscle car era, which is what this board mainly deals with. The .060 gap with the pedal on the floor is the issue with me. I like my Mopar clutches to disengage at the top of the pedal travel like they were designed to do instead of pushing them to the floor. That travel messes up my timing when I shift. I drove that latest install of that 68 Hemi Charger with the hemi 4 speed and the gear vendor OD unit. It has the McLeod twin disc long style in it. It is extremely smooth on the release, releases right at the top and has Perfe͏c͏t͏ pedal pressure. Not to much like your leg gets a workout and not to little like you’re stepping on a plum, but just right. The car will break loose the tires in third gear at any time.

I have a 10.5 McLeod Long/B+B , I'll have it rebuilt as many times as possible .

Hate to speak for another person, but, .060 is the recommended gap between the disk and the flywheel/pressure plate with a diaphragm clutch... not the measurement between the clutch pedal and the floorboard. I used to sandwich a feeler guage under the disk, and if it fell out when I pushed the pedal, it was good. Depressing a diaphragm clutch too much is bad too. When they are depressed too much, the pedal can stick to the floor when power shifting. Ask me how I know. If all else fails, read the instructions. I was a 3000 pound+ B&B clutch person until I tried a Zoom diaphragm pp and aluminum flywheel. Man, what a difference!! Took a bit to get used to the girly clutch pedal, but it sure did lock up tight on high rpm shifts.

Keep it coming fellas - I appreciate the feedback!

Ive had my 65 since 69.Th CF is the best clutch Ive ever run I had zooms Mccleod factory mopar remans etc.This clutch ls the best Ive run Still hooks like mad and easy on the leg.Its been in for 20 years and has been weel used.As for as some say stop and go Never had a problem with it in traffic.Have the same in my kids Lil experss behind a buit 360 Same thing its flawless and nice to drive

the reason for the old wives tale that paddle disc chatters is the installer did not dial in the bellhousing to 0.00050 inches tir alignment/squareness and uses the roller crank register bearing. The shifting/lock up difference betwixt the full marcel clutch discs vs the 6 paddle disks is night and day. Paddle disk wins all day long even in traffic

Same here.

Why not just get a new McLeod disc?
I've used the crap out of CF clutches on my Mopars since they came out in the 90's. Have ran several of them on motors up to 600hp. Love them and never a failure even on my 8500# W200.
I've used the McLeod Twin Disc on motors over 600hp and it is awesome. IMO it would be a waste of money for a stock 440.

My 92 Cummins 12V had a diaphram PP so not just a Chevy thing......

Five ten-thousandths total indicator? Two and a half ten-thousandths off center? You have to be kidding me. There's more clearance than that between the retainer and the bell housing.

I've run just about every clutch you can name over the last 40 years being a stick car guy and the combo I have in the Savoy now is the best street clutch I have ever run. It is a Centerforce 2 plate with a Mcleod dual friction 500 series disc on a Hays billet wheel of course. I have never raced it seriously though with this clutch only a half dozen easy passes. I don't want to break the current Hemi box in the car right now as it shifts like butter and doesn't whine like most 18 spline units I've had. When I raced the car I used a Hays Mark XII adjustable unit with a Ram bronze paddle disc that also did surprisingly well on the street too.

Gus

Talk about spreading the love Gus.
I too have ran about everything out there over the decades. Not drag racing but a lot of burnouts and banging gears. I put a Golden Ram in my CTD and that was a good setup. I have an Atomic twin disc but haven't used it. It's not meant for the street.

If a diaphragm clutch doesn’t like stop and go driving, how’d I get by with zero issues in my three season daily or almost daily cars? Even the ultra heavy no weight lightening, totally stock under hood 440, Dana equipped, 68 charger never had an issue.

Were talking apples and grapefruit comparing a Musclecar to a Cummins truck. I had a 91 Cummins with a diaphragm. I think that is the only kind they make. The factory designed the release rate to fit a diaphragm type clutch. My issue is just the rate of release in the design of the linkage for a Musclecar designed for a Borg and Beck. The McLeod diaphragm was terrible. The Centerforce in two cars was bearable. But the Ram Borg and Beck and Long style twin disc were like heaven.

Now, if the original poster is looking for a clutch, I have a Centerforce diaphragm clutch and dual friction disc I would sell worth the money. It has very few miles on it. A Freind built it for a street/strip car and then realized he could not shift it consistently enough. Pm if you want some pictures and a price.

I know. I just like to rib ol' Jimbo .
Run what works for you. Myself and I guess others have had good luck with CF. I've ran them for 30 years and just put one in my Dart 5.9 build. I'm not dissing a B&B clutch. Have ran a lot of them too.
This is a good stock type unit.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ram-92503/make/dodge/model/charger/year/1971

Guess he needs a 23 spline.
Here is another decent unit if you want a little more grunt.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ram-98766/make/dodge/model/charger/year/1971
Ram and Hays are the only ones making a B&D that I know of.

I've never been able to power shift a diaphragm like a 3 finger. Zooming around on the street, shifting hard, yes. But full throttle, flick the pedal, puch the the radio out of the dash type driving the just simply up to the task. I have a late 70's Hot Rod mag with an article all about clutches, it even bashes GM for using a diaphragm. And it states that all their heavy duty truck app used B&B.

Had a Sachs setup that had no problem shifting like that. But it was behind a warm 360 in an 87 Diplomat that I converted. Everything was new in the linkage setup though.

i can't shift for $hit, so my junkers are automatics.

There are several good clutch manufacturers. I ended up using a "SPEC" clutch behind my supercharged Poly and TKO600 5-speed. Great set-up.

I do not trust anything written by any of the car magazines, the writers are all English majors in college and some of them do not know anything about cars, trucks, motorcycles or any kind of automotive racing
My point is they will take what some "expert in our hobby" say for the truth and print it They don't know that they have been played
I recently bought a core motor for a customer, 1996 351 C.I. Ford Windsor motor out of the 3/4 ton 4x4 truck crew cab 5 speed, and it had a stock diaphragm clutch in it
I like and use mostly H.P. aftermarket clutches in most of my stick shift street and strip builds: up:

Back in the 70-80's I would have agreed with you 100%. But technology changes over time, and that is exactly how CF became a leader in the field. Even Mcleod has dumped the 3 finger designs. I haven't looked recently to see who might even still be producing them

I have driven several of 4 speed gm products, They aren't the same as my B&B 833. Most guys aren't laying them out. I can tell you on more than one occasion, you go for a ride with them and they think they are being violent with it, they arn't doing chit. Most times I'll try a couple on the floor, 6000+ rpm violent power shifts resulting in an occasional very nasty missed shift resulting in a heavy ,noisy gear grind. When you do catch them with the normal ash try opening crunch, that happens with my B&B, is more of a slip into the full clamp. For you who say they are fine, go out run your car to 6000 in first, DO NOT LIFT THE GAS PEDAL AT ALL, hit the clutch, while pulling second (thats the easy one for you guys), then tell me how good they are. I just wonder how many of these reviews have really pushed this stuff to the absolute limit, to the point of failure without fear.

Back in the day, when they wrote articles like that, they didn't care about grenading a Hemi or what ever rare expensive machine into little pieces.

Now we put-put around and pound our chest(keyboard)




The diaphragm is a proven street put putter, thanks to years of GM usage.

When an aftermarket mfg, quits using them you can bet its because they are cheaper to mfg, so they can make more money.

Maybe you need to go back and read what the OP asked.

a very good friend of mine [R.I.P. Donny] had a 69 camero he built a small block for, out of cast off dirt burner parts.
it was a street car with a 4speed and 4.56 gears, he put one of those vertical gate shifters in.
i don't know what transmission it had, or if he did anything to it, but that thing was a foot to the floor/7000+ rpm terror with no missed shifts !

6500 here with an H pattern super shifter II and R lockout Foot never left the radiator LOL until after the lights. 4:30 to 5:13 gears on slicks.

ok, another 10.5 B&B. My 2 cents...or a 10.95 (better)

I use to use MCLeods 10.95 Borg and Beck/long pressure plates when the pressures were above 3100Lbs. I remember some SO CA guy trying to race in NHRA Pro Stock with a SB Chevy in a Vega using one of Reds pressure plates with 2300 lbs. of pressure back when Lenco were still being used
In today world of multiple and much small diameter race clutches who really know what is the best to use without going racing in a class
Al, are you out there?

If you get YouTube, go to the search engine and type in "11 second 68 roadrunner" . Look for the blue roadrunner with 493 on the windshield. Watch the run. 6200 rpm power shifts with a CF dual friction that has been in the car for several years. If you have a problem power shifting a diaphragm clutch
I don't think it is a clutch problem. Just my 2 cents.

Speaking of clutches.... Any of you Chicago area guys know if Surge Friction is still in business around South Holland?
It's been years but I've gotten a few clutches from them
Also what's out there that is made somewhere better than china or Korea? I need a clutch for my pickup, nothing like you guys are talking about it's only a /6-833OD but I ain't using a china clutch again after my last couple of experiences with them. I see that LuK is now sources there?

I have a LuK in my 98 Dakota. So far so good but I'm not doing any high rpm launches either.

Diaphram (Chivvy) clutches do not belong in a Mopar. McLeod here.

Better get rid of your saginaw power steering pumps then.

And the 72-93 Dodge trucks also use the exact same Saginaw 808 p/s box as Chevy..

Just to clarify that CF and the McLeod twin disc are the only diaphragm clutches that I use on Mopars. They are quite different than a standard Chevy diaphragm clutch. Have a few new B&B setups on the shelf.

Right I was going to say this a couple days ago, but didn't want to waste my time. Even though they are still a band aid on a cheap design.

So if the diaphragm clutch is such a poor setup why did Chrysler pretty much ditch the B&B for the diaphragm in the 80's? My 87 D150, 91 CTD and 98 Dakota all came with a diaphragm clutch.

Because some people don't understand the difference between a street and a race application.

OP asked about a street application.

All of these applications were designed by the factory to work with a diaphragm clutch and all the linkages worked with them. The older muscle cars linkage rates were designed for the Borg and Beck. That’s all I don’t like about them. I’ve driven several with them Centerforce and they work, just not the same as the original design Borg and Beck. Different preferences for different people.

I understand all that. Some are saying that the diaphragm clutch is just a poor design but yet most everything made in the last 30 years uses a diaphragm clutch. Why isn't everything using a B&B?
I'm not dissing to B&B. I've used a lot of them and will use more of them.

because of cost savings, they are a cheaper product.

They are a better product. Better clamping force for less pedal pressure.

???????? How many parts are in a diaphragm?, what does the clamping?

How are diaphragm clutch kits under 100 bucks (some well under, even BB Chevy apps), including pressure plate, disc, throw out bearing, and fork.

You cant get a B&B plate alone for under 100.

This is ridiculous.

Maybe because they produce diaphragm style for the millions of chevy's out there and as we know they get cheaper the more that are produced. Not saying I'm correct just another opinion and we know what they're like.

We've had a CF dual friction in our Challenger since 2004. I've put 100 or so passes on it with slicks. I releases fine. Never slips or shudders. My wife drives it easily as it was built for her. The over center spring has been removed. I see zero issue with "release rate". Best clutch I've ever used.
Doug