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Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383

Posted By: VITC_GTX

Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 03:29 AM

Just rebuilt the original 383 in the road runner. Measured 9.0-1 compression, iron heads with Summit small cam (214/224 @ .050" = .444/.466), stock exhaust manifolds and stock intake with Edelbrock 650. I used the Summit electronic dizzy and ECU with vacuum advance.

Suggestions for initial and total timing for street driving??
Posted By: dart4forte

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 04:23 AM

You have a dial back timing light?
Posted By: bobby66

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 04:23 AM



18 initial and 34 total. Adjust as needed. twocents
Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 05:20 AM

34 total. Initial and springs wherever you like it.
Posted By: crackedback

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by bobby66


18 initial and 34 total. Adjust as needed. twocents


These sound #'s good!

Sort out initial first. probably land in the 14-18 range, then total wherever it doesn't detonate. 34 is a good start.
Posted By: VITC_GTX

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by dart4forte
You have a dial back timing light?


Good question. I do have one of these.

Looks like I should start in the 14-18 range and then I'll have to fill in my slots in the plate of the distributor to limit the mechanical advance.

Thanks.
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 11:08 AM

get into the distributor and see if the centrifugal advance plate has a number on it. the number will tell how many centrifugal degrees are in the distributor. the mopar electronic distributors had 13 degree plates for 26 degrees total at the crank. i've found that a lot of initial timing in these stock or near stock builds burn crummy. i wouldn't do more than 10 degrees initial with a 13 degree plate. this is what i do and have noticed a cleaner burn and the engine drives good. i've done all kinds of curves from aggressive 9 degree plates to 15 degree plates with varying springs. smaller cams are more efficent in the lower and mid rpm range and don't need aggressive timing. aggressive timing is just a crutch for inefficient cams or poor tune-ups.
Posted By: topside

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 04:12 PM

Smallish cam & iron heads & pump gas @ 9.0:1, I'm thinking 10-12 initial, 36 max mechanical, and run vac advance.
Used to routinely run that on stock 383s, woke them up from the factory setting. That was at sea level & in a warm (Calif) environment, pump premium.
You might find yours wants the total limited as already mentioned, as I'm not sure every aftermarket distributor has the same curve.
Gear ratio & cruise RPM can be factors as well.
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 06:14 PM

something that can be done if you don't want to take the distributor apart to find out what it is is to put a 35-36 degree mark on the dampener and power time the engine. basically you can measure 2.25" from the TDC mark in the clockwise direction and place a mark on the dampener. this should get you close to 36 degrees. disconnect the vacuum advance and rev the engine until maximum centrifugal advance is acheived while aligning the 36 degree mark at the zero on the timing tab. then just let the initial be what at is and don't worry about it. hopefully your vacuum advance is adjustable, and you can play with that .
Posted By: crackedback

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 06:23 PM

Stock 318's like 10-12 initial timing

initial is the foundation for all other timing events. My suggestion is give the engine what it wants at idle, then build from there.

The old school wherever it lands is a poor approach. JMO.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by crackedback
Originally Posted by bobby66


18 initial and 34 total. Adjust as needed. twocents


These sound #'s good!

Sort out initial first. probably land in the 14-18 range, then total wherever it doesn't detonate. 34 is a good start.
iagree That is what I use on my street and strip BB motors on pump gas up wrench
Idling from 12 to 18 BTDC and all in (34 to 36 BTDC depending on the altitude by 2400 RPM up scope up
Posted By: SportF

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/19/22 11:49 PM

If you are interested in performance, I suggest you ask a bunch of mopar drag racers at the track what they do. Their answers are probably different from that of which you hear here. Best of luck.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/20/22 02:37 AM

On A fresh motor, I'd suggest 10-12 initial, 36 total with or without VA. Once broke in then start playing with it to see what it likes. The msot important part is Break the motor in and give the rings time to seat. twocents beer
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/21/22 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by SportF
If you are interested in performance, I suggest you ask a bunch of mopar drag racers at the track what they do. Their answers are probably different from that of which you hear here. Best of luck.


This worked for me in 06 at the Pure stock drags, it was suggested that I run 42 total by a veteran PS racer from Detroit , I went as high as 39 and dumped a couple gallons of 110oct on top of the1/4 tank 93oct for piece of mind, the car picked up a couple tenths ...
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/21/22 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by JohnRR
Originally Posted by SportF
If you are interested in performance, I suggest you ask a bunch of mopar drag racers at the track what they do. Their answers are probably different from that of which you hear here. Best of luck.


This worked for me in 06 at the Pure stock drags, it was suggested that I run 42 total by a veteran PS racer from Detroit , I went as high as 39 and dumped a couple gallons of 110oct on top of the1/4 tank 93oct for piece of mind, the car picked up a couple tenths ...


This. 42 degrees was pretty common. I ran 39-40.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/21/22 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by BSB67
Originally Posted by JohnRR
[quote=SportF]If you are interested in performance, I suggest you ask a bunch of mopar drag racers at the track what they do. Their answers are probably different from that of which you hear here. Best of luck.


This worked for me in 06 at the Pure stock drags, it was suggested that I run 42 total by a veteran PS racer from Detroit , I went as high as 39 and dumped a couple gallons of 110oct on top of the1/4 tank 93oct for piece of mind, the car picked up a couple tenths ...


This. 42 degrees was pretty common. I ran 39-40.

[/quote ] Every time I have tried setting the verified total timing above 36 BTDC at any 1/4 mile track doing testing on every BB Mopar I've tuned slowed the car down in the ET and MPH shruggy
Don Wann, NHRA division 7 long time Mopar drag racer, had told me years ago that the 1963 Plymouth M.W. Savoy he owned and raced like 42 BTDC total timing, so I tried that on my legal 1963 415 HP Max Wedge NHRA stocker and it slowed down confused
I learn later that he didn't build the motors for his cars, a machine shop did them for his sponsor and it ended up that they had put a later year (1967 and later) timing cover on his M.W. motor with the original dampener making it read falsely tsk
My message is trust and VERIFY scope up twocents
Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/22/22 03:58 AM

Mopar action this summer mentioned 33-35 is sweet spot for power on a big block. I had found 34 worked best years ago. One time I had the distributor out, it bumped to 33 when I locked it down. I left it there and noticed no difference really so I’d vouch for their numbers.

Mopar used to say in the speed books that you should run 38. Back in the 70s you probably didn’t have a problem finding better fuels. I tried 38 and I got .5 mpg better, but it ran rough. I think it was signs of pre-ignition. Backing it down, that stock 383 hp smoothed out at 34 and was the smoothest engine I’ve ever had. That one was all factory built when I tore it down for a new chain and seals.
Posted By: Ray S

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/22/22 02:35 PM

38 is from Basic Startup and Adjustment and Ignition Tuning for Maximum Performance taken directly from the Mopar Performance Small Block V-8 Electronic Ignition Kit instruction sheet
56 BTDC all in.
http://www.mopar1.us/engine2.html

Engine Heads Timing Specification
A Production - Pre '89 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A Production - '89 & Newer (Iron) 32 BTDC
A W2 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A W5 (Alum.) 35 BTDC
B/RB Production (Iron) 38 BTDC
B/RB Stage I, II, III, IV, V (Iron or Alum) 38 BTDC
B/RB Indy (Alum) 35 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Under 475 cu. in. 37-39 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Under 15.0:1 Ratio 36-38 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Over 15.0:1 Ratio 34-36 BTDC
B/RB B1 TS 34 BTDC
Hemi All (Iron or Alum) 35 BTDC
Posted By: TJP

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/23/22 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Ray S
38 is from Basic Startup and Adjustment and Ignition Tuning for Maximum Performance taken directly from the Mopar Performance Small Block V-8 Electronic Ignition Kit instruction sheet
56 BTDC all in.
http://www.mopar1.us/engine2.html

Engine Heads Timing Specification
A Production - Pre '89 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A Production - '89 & Newer (Iron) 32 BTDC
A W2 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A W5 (Alum.) 35 BTDC
B/RB Production (Iron) 38 BTDC
B/RB Stage I, II, III, IV, V (Iron or Alum) 38 BTDC
B/RB Indy (Alum) 35 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Under 475 cu. in. 37-39 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Under 15.0:1 Ratio 36-38 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Over 15.0:1 Ratio 34-36 BTDC
B/RB B1 TS 34 BTDC
Hemi All (Iron or Alum) 35 BTDC


In my experience some motors will tolerate that Much vacuum advance and others will not. IMO it is best to break the motor in on the conservatives side and then start experimenting twocents
Posted By: SportF

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/23/22 12:14 PM

[. Everybody at the track is running 38, with a few at 36. The only guys running 34 degrees is when they are trying to slow the car down to meet an index. Now maybe when you are at sea level it makes a difference, that I don't know.
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/23/22 12:52 PM

in my opinion total timing is dictated by cylinder pressure/chamber design/ quality of fuel. just because one guy does something doesn't mean you should. don't think that a total advance number is some blanket rule. the higher the cylinder pressure the less tolerant the engine is of it with a given fuel, and the more eficient the engine is the less timing it needs. i'm pretty sure the summit cam closes the intake valve around 61 degrees ABDC. that's fairly early when you consider that a stock magnum closes the intake valve at 67 ABDC, and that dosen't include all the closing ramp. i've found that some carbs in these stock engines are less tolerant to aggressive timing than others. i have a stock 440 that i've alternated between the factory 4618avs and a 1407 edelbrock. my initial thoughts were that these carbs are so close in size and function that ignition timing changes weren't necessary; wrong! i've had to learn thru the years that the vagueness the phrase "it depends" is relevant.
Posted By: Sniper

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/23/22 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ray S
38 is from Basic Startup and Adjustment and Ignition Tuning for Maximum Performance taken directly from the Mopar Performance Small Block V-8 Electronic Ignition Kit instruction sheet
56 BTDC all in.
http://www.mopar1.us/engine2.html

Engine Heads Timing Specification
A Production - Pre '89 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A Production - '89 & Newer (Iron) 32 BTDC
A W2 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A W5 (Alum.) 35 BTDC
B/RB Production (Iron) 38 BTDC
B/RB Stage I, II, III, IV, V (Iron or Alum) 38 BTDC
B/RB Indy (Alum) 35 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Under 475 cu. in. 37-39 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Under 15.0:1 Ratio 36-38 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Over 15.0:1 Ratio 34-36 BTDC
B/RB B1 TS 34 BTDC
Hemi All (Iron or Alum) 35 BTDC


I can already tell you that there are issues with that list. Production A engines in the 80's are not all the same. The 318 went to swirl port closed chamber heads in mid 85. 360's didn't, they got a swirl head, but open chambered in 89. Then the Magnums came out and those heads bear little relationship to the earlier stuff. As is typical with MP, the info is poorly detailed. Being those guys were almost invariably straight line race only oriented they don't think of anything else and neglect to tell you that.
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/23/22 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by Ray S
38 is from Basic Startup and Adjustment and Ignition Tuning for Maximum Performance taken directly from the Mopar Performance Small Block V-8 Electronic Ignition Kit instruction sheet
56 BTDC all in.
http://www.mopar1.us/engine2.html

Engine Heads Timing Specification
A Production - Pre '89 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A Production - '89 & Newer (Iron) 32 BTDC
A W2 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A W5 (Alum.) 35 BTDC
B/RB Production (Iron) 38 BTDC
B/RB Stage I, II, III, IV, V (Iron or Alum) 38 BTDC
B/RB Indy (Alum) 35 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Under 475 cu. in. 37-39 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Under 15.0:1 Ratio 36-38 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Over 15.0:1 Ratio 34-36 BTDC
B/RB B1 TS 34 BTDC
Hemi All (Iron or Alum) 35 BTDC


I can already tell you that there are issues with that list. Production A engines in the 80's are not all the same. The 318 went to swirl port closed chamber heads in mid 85. 360's didn't, they got a swirl head, but open chambered in 89. Then the Magnums came out and those heads bear little relationship to the earlier stuff. As is typical with MP, the info is poorly detailed. Being those guys were almost invariably straight line race only oriented they don't think of anything else and neglect to tell you that.
"poorly detailed", or no details. devil's in the details. whole lot of difference between a straight line racer and somebody who wants a street cruiser. i used to build some engines for bracket racers years back (i never bracket raced because i disliked it) and can say from my experience that they are the last people i'd ask about a street tune-up.
Posted By: SportF

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/23/22 03:51 PM

Drag racing advice I got years ago that I still like, "If everybody is doing it, its probably a good idea" Sort of a Yogi Berra kind of advice.
Posted By: Sniper

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/23/22 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by SportF
Drag racing advice I got years ago that I still like, "If everybody is doing it, its probably a good idea" Sort of a Yogi Berra kind of advice.


And if this were the race forum it might be relevant, then again so much of "what every one else is doing" is based on this thinking"


5 monkeys are locked in a cage, a banana was hung from the ceiling and a ladder was placed right underneath it.
As predicted, immediately, one of the monkeys would race towards the ladder, to grab the banana. However, as soon as he would start to climb, the researcher would spray the monkey with ice-cold water.
but here’s the kicker- In addition, he would also spray the other four monkeys…

When a second monkey tried to climb the ladder, the researcher would, again, spray the monkey with ice-cold water, As well as the other four watching monkeys;
This was repeated again and again until they learned their lesson
Climbing equals scary cold water for EVERYONE so No One Climbs the ladder.

Once the 5 monkeys knew the drill, the researcher replaced one of the monkeys with a new inexperienced one. As predicted, the new monkey spots the banana, and goes for the ladder. BUT, the other four monkeys, knowing the drill, jumped on the new monkey and beat him up. The beat up new guy thus Learns- NO going for the ladder and No Banana Period- without even knowing why! and also without ever being sprayed with water!

These actions get repeated with 3 more times, with a new monkey each time and ASTONISHINGLY each new monkey- who had never received the cold-water Spray himself (and didn’t even know anything about it), would Join the beating up of the New guy.

This is a classic example of Mob Mentality- bystanders and outsiders uninvolved with the fight- join in ‘just because’.

When the researcher replaced a third monkey, the same thing happened; likewise for the fourth until, eventually, all the monkeys had been replaced and none of the original ones are left in the cage (that had been sprayed by water).

Again, a new monkey was introduced into the cage. It ran toward the ladder only to get beaten up by the others. The monkey turns with a curious face asking “why do you beat me up when I try to get the banana?”
The other four monkeys stopped and looked at each other puzzled (None of them had been sprayed and so they really had no clue why the new guy can’t get the banana) but it didn’t matter, it was too late, the rules had been set. And So, although they didn’t know WHY, they beat up the monkey just because ” that’s the way we do things around here”…


If you don't know why everyone is doing it then you don't know anything, you are just another monkey.
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/23/22 04:56 PM

monkey see/monkey do = bracket racing; and a handful of credit cards.
Posted By: Ray S

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/23/22 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by Ray S
38 is from Basic Startup and Adjustment and Ignition Tuning for Maximum Performance taken directly from the Mopar Performance Small Block V-8 Electronic Ignition Kit instruction sheet
56 BTDC all in.
http://www.mopar1.us/engine2.html

Engine Heads Timing Specification
A Production - Pre '89 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A Production - '89 & Newer (Iron) 32 BTDC
A W2 (Iron) 35 BTDC
A W5 (Alum.) 35 BTDC
B/RB Production (Iron) 38 BTDC
B/RB Stage I, II, III, IV, V (Iron or Alum) 38 BTDC
B/RB Indy (Alum) 35 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Under 475 cu. in. 37-39 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Under 15.0:1 Ratio 36-38 BTDC
B/RB B1 (Alum) Over 475 cu. in., Over 15.0:1 Ratio 34-36 BTDC
B/RB B1 TS 34 BTDC
Hemi All (Iron or Alum) 35 BTDC


I can already tell you that there are issues with that list. Production A engines in the 80's are not all the same. The 318 went to swirl port closed chamber heads in mid 85. 360's didn't, they got a swirl head, but open chambered in 89. Then the Magnums came out and those heads bear little relationship to the earlier stuff. As is typical with MP, the info is poorly detailed. Being those guys were almost invariably straight line race only oriented they don't think of anything else and neglect to tell you that.

I assume that that info is a bit dated, and, only even then pertained to OEM engines converting from points to the 1972+ electonic module.
My interest is bone stock 1971 413-1 so the numbers are likely fine.
I don't track run it
This heretic swapped an LS3 with supercharger...4L80E auto 4 speed
https://www.facebook.com/grizzly.hansen/videos/471409475036115/?idorvanity=358395874142
Posted By: SportF

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/24/22 12:20 PM

Wow, I never knew this forum was so tough. Too knowledgeable for me, thank you. Have a nice day.
Posted By: crackedback

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/24/22 07:17 PM

Problem when taking advice from drag racers or the DC manual, they only care about mid-top end performance, idle doesn't matter because you let that setting fall where it may ( according to DC). Do you build a house roof (total timing) first, no you don't. The foundation (initial timing) is the thing all other events are driven from.

Not the case with a street driven car. I can hand you two distributors and have them timed at say whatever max HP is, ex 36*. Those two distributors will run wildly different at idle and off idle. Car smelling like it was a fuel truck dumping it's load out the exhaust with one... yep, fun stuff on a street driven car. Proper initial timing solves a LOT of "carb" problems as well.

Total timing method for a street driven car is a horrible way to do things. I've fixed hundreds of street cars over the years that were timed using that method and helped a bunch of drag cars pick up time in 60's because the engine was cleaner off the bottom.

Go time an engine by the book with the 0-5 btdc, set the carb up and put it in gear, then do it with the initial set at 16 btdc, set carb and pull in gear. See how it runs different. Easy test, if you have the car idling and warmed up, add a couple degrees of timing, if the engine picked up rpm, it wants the timing (Efficiency).

Sometimes there is a better method to approach things than the way the "bible" suggest, been proven for more than 30years.
Posted By: moparx

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/24/22 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by SportF
Wow, I never knew this forum was so tough. Too knowledgeable for me, thank you. Have a nice day.




please don't take the posted replies as being a beating on you.
it's just that ALL engines of THE SAME combination[s] are SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT from each other, and [as member Cab says] REQUIRE TESTING, TESTING, TESTING to see what YOUR COMBINATION REQUIRES for it's optimal performance.
that includes ignition timing, carb tuning, and chassis tuning, and you won't optimize this in a 15 minute time period.
and believe this from an old dumb man, it took me years to understand and utilize information that is out there, and to separate the fact from the bull$hit.
please don't give up !
most on here want to help you, but [some] can't formulate their thought[s] into words that don't sound condescending or patronizing.
over the years i have been here, i have learned so much from everyone here, even if i didn't realize it at the time.
consequently, i try to pass on what i [think] i know to those that [may] need it. other do the same, but maybe in a way you may find issue with.
so please try some of these suggestions, and let us know what happens. up
beer
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/24/22 10:23 PM

Not only does the fuel being used make a BIG difference, but so does the desired result. Is a person setting timing for all out performance or ZERO risk of detonation under all circumstances? Pretty hard to get both. I believe in 36 total mechanical, then check idle and if it’s 12-18 I’m good, otherwise I’m adjusting the advance in the distributor. Around 54 total with vacuum. I might be leaving a bit of performance on the table, but I’m not detonating.
Posted By: Ray S

Re: Initial and Total Timing '69 Road Runner 383 - 11/25/22 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Pacnorthcuda
Not only does the fuel being used make a BIG difference, but so does the desired result. Is a person setting timing for all out performance or ZERO risk of detonation under all circumstances? Pretty hard to get both. I believe in 36 total mechanical, then check idle and if it’s 12-18 I’m good, otherwise I’m adjusting the advance in the distributor. Around 54 total with vacuum. I might be leaving a bit of performance on the table, but I’m not detonating.

As the kit says, it is a 3 step measurement: initial, total mech, total with vacuum.
I had a dyno shop tweak my electronic dizzy as the curve as delivered was not optimal for best torque.
I've also found (and read) that with low compression peak HP timing will be significantly behind pinging value.
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