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Has Comp fixed their cams?

Posted By: GODSCOUNTRY340

Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 02:37 AM

I know Comp had problems not too long ago with their cams eating lobes. Have they straightened this out or are they still junk?
Posted By: fastmark

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 09:07 AM

From what I’ve heard from a source in the Dallas area, failure rate is up to about 25% on cams right now. The cores we get from China are junk. I bet it’s the lifters as well. Sell your soul to the devil and it will come back to haunt you.
Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 12:20 PM

Wonder how many of those ponied up for the nitriding, used EDM lifters, and did a correct break-in procedure. Everyone will blame the cam first. twocents
Not saying there aren't issues, but...
Posted By: Sniper

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Wonder how many of those ponied up for the nitriding, used EDM lifters, and did a correct break-in procedure. Everyone will blame the cam first. twocents
Not saying there aren't issues, but...


Never used to have to do all that. Which points right back at the cam as delivered.
Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Wonder how many of those ponied up for the nitriding, used EDM lifters, and did a correct break-in procedure. Everyone will blame the cam first. twocents
Not saying there aren't issues, but...


Never used to have to do all that. Which points right back at the cam as delivered.

Agreed. up Nevertheless, those things should still be considered. It's not just a Comp Cams thing though.
The materials today are what they are...so you should expect to do things a little differently. Adapt and overcome.
Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 01:08 PM

At a 25% failure rate, shouldn't the cam grinder take stronger action than to only 'offer' additional services? Something like a strong declaration as to the failure rate without the additional services. Or better yet, make those additional steps inclusive. It would seem to me that the only reason to NOT include those additional and more costly services would because the additional costs would lead to a decline in sales.

In other words, the cam grinder has a responsibility to educate and inform their customers on the issues. Not everyone is up on cam core technology and manufacture.
Posted By: DGS

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by fastmark
From what I’ve heard from a source in the Dallas area, failure rate is up to about 25% on cams right now. The cores we get from China are junk. I bet it’s the lifters as well. Sell your soul to the devil and it will come back to haunt you.


Didn't the problems already exist with US cam cores (CWC etc.)?

Here's what Mike Jones (Jones Cams) has to say about nitriding of cams:

Quote
I've been saying for years, when you nitride a cast iron cam, the process reduces the core hardness of the material. You end up with a very hard, but thin outer layer, but the backing material is now much softer. The hard shell. helps with break-in, but the after a while the softer backing material gives way, and the hard shell starts to flake off. As soon as that starts, your cam is toast.

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=767730#p767730

and

Quote
(On nitriding) Yes, it can make the cam brittle.
And it can also cause flaking on the lobes.

We've been nitriding flat tappet cams for years(I use the same heat treater as my biggest competitor), and I only reccommend it, when there is no other options.


https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/vi...162b80591d2fb569e9ae0876072e3de6#p248246

I didn't get my Comp Cam (XS282S) nitrated but haven't installed it yet. Got Howards EDM lifters though.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by DaveRS23
At a 25% failure rate, shouldn't the cam grinder take stronger action than to only 'offer' additional services? Something like a strong declaration as to the failure rate without the additional services. Or better yet, make those additional steps inclusive. It would seem to me that the only reason to NOT include those additional and more costly services would because the additional costs would lead to a decline in sales.

In other words, the cam grinder has a responsibility to educate and inform their customers on the issues. Not everyone is up on cam core technology and manufacture.


up Except when they are more interested in profits and competing with lower priced offerings. It is sad as Comp used to be the go to and not worry.
I wonder what Blueprint engines is doing or who they might be using, unless they are making them in house.

ironically enough I had a call from a younger guy two days ago with a freshly built flat tappet motor. He's fully trained on the newer cars etc. Helped his cousin build a 351up using all kinds of hi-po parts. He wanted to bring it in for tuning as it was backfiring through the carb and not running right. As usual I ask a series of questions to get a feel for what I might be getting into.
He had no clue about zinc additives, the 20 minute 2-3k RPM run in, single spring break in on performance cams, or anything else related to flat tappet cams. eek shock
He said it started fine and after about 5 or 10 minutes started missing a bit and with further run time started backfiring through the carb.

I told him I strongly suspected he may have lost a lobe or two and educated him a bit on flat tappet cams. He said he had gone to school and been working at a dealership for about 5 years but did not recall anything being taught in school on flat tappet cams. whistling
I asked if he had checked for coil bind? what's that he replied?
I told him to pull the valve covers and start inspecting the valvetrain for broken springs, rocker arms, pushrods or lack of movement/lift.

So, maybe some of the failures ARE in fact due to the end user as flat tappets are becoming somewhat like what took place with wheel bearings.

Ball bearings were common place and cheap but required maintenance. Timken's were far superior but expensive to produce. In the mid to late 60's or so, the use of Timken's became more commonplace and as manufacturing technology advanced the price on them dropped and the ball bearings became much more expensive. Along with the changeover to Timken's came different installation and set up procedures
Sorry for the rambling, I'm getting old LOL beer
Posted By: Diplomat360

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by DaveRS23
At a 25% failure rate, shouldn't the cam grinder take stronger action than to only 'offer' additional services? Something like a strong declaration as to the failure rate without the additional services...

You know, if that number is true, it's attrocious. But heck, let's cut them some slack and assume it's actually better, say 5% failure rate...is that really "better" though???

I mean who out there, any of us for that matter, would accept an airline ticket with a 5% failure rate? How about municipal water services that guarantee you only 5% of your water being un-consumable? ...what about a bank that tells you about 5% of your transactions will fail???

Yeah, so I am purposely being dramatic here, but hasn't anyone at these companies ever studied SixSigma prinicples? (we are talking here 0.00034% failure rate)

I'm an IT person by profession, my products (software and interfaces) use these kind of metrics...so why can't an Engineering & Manufacturing company apply them?
Posted By: GODSCOUNTRY340

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 06:57 PM

Okay, how about Isky cams? What has everyone been using that lasts?. I agree, 25% failure rate is unacceptable.
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 08:29 PM

i'm not a comp cams lover but i really have to wonder how much of the failure rate is due to folks wanting more aggressive profiles. at what point is enough enough? why don't some of these grinders just say no to this? people want a flat tappet hydraulic to perform like a solid, wanting solids to perform like rollers and unreliable roller profiles with crazy spring pressures. i doubt a true 25% failure rate but i don't use them because of reliability issues i've had. i'm satisfied with the slower more reliable lobes and if someone's car is quicker than mine then so be it. at least i'm working on my junk. wiping some lobes is like crapping the bed; helluva mess to clean up.
Posted By: Sniper

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 09:03 PM

I wish I had to worry about Comp Cam failures, lol. I drive a flathead six, if I want a hot rod cam I have to send mine out to be reground and guess what? They heat treat the regrind. So why Comp recommends nitriding is beyond me. maybe they should get a better supplier for their cores.

Of course even the hot rod flathead cam is a broomstick and the springs are very light. So that plays into it.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Sniper
maybe they should get a better supplier for their cores.


So you think they have a choice. Who do you recommend?
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by lewtot184
i'm not a comp cams lover but i really have to wonder how much of the failure rate is due to folks wanting more aggressive profiles. at what point is enough enough? why don't some of these grinders just say no to this? people want a flat tappet hydraulic to perform like a solid, wanting solids to perform like rollers and unreliable roller profiles with crazy spring pressures. i doubt a true 25% failure rate but i don't use them because of reliability issues i've had. i'm satisfied with the slower more reliable lobes and if someone's car is quicker than mine then so be it. at least i'm working on my junk. wiping some lobes is like crapping the bed; helluva mess to clean up.


Here is what will happen, they will simply stop offering flat tappet cams.
Posted By: Sniper

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by BSB67
Originally Posted by Sniper
maybe they should get a better supplier for their cores.


So you think they have a choice. Who do you recommend?



When your supplier is crap and you can't find better guess what? You do it yourself. They'd be better off taking OEM cores out of junkyard and redoing those.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by BSB67
Originally Posted by Sniper
maybe they should get a better supplier for their cores.


So you think they have a choice. Who do you recommend?



When your supplier is crap and you can't find better guess what? You do it yourself. They'd be better off taking OEM cores out of junkyard and redoing those.



Yep. that's what Comp should do, go to junk yards.
Posted By: bee1971

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 10:58 PM

When is not to long ago ? - Supposedly that these issues started time frame ?
Posted By: Neil

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 11:21 PM

UTG has several videos on this subject. Seems popular opinion is it's more lifters than camshaft related. They blame the oil or the customer for failures, but many pro engine shops do cam break-ins by the book and still have issues anyways eventually.

Some lifters do not have the crown cut just right + they leak oil. Recommendation was to inspect/measure each lifter, pressure test it for leaking, and also that it drops into the bores and rotates smoothly.

Also read some people saying these cam companies may be taking the box of bad lifters people send back to them and doing a light tune up grind/re-polish on the ones that are not too bad and then selling those as new again.
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/22/22 11:38 PM

I had two Comp Cams mild hydraulic flat tappets wipe lobes within 20 minutes. I've been doing this for 45 years as a professional so I know what I'm doing. I did everything right and they still wiped lobes, the Summit cam before them had no problems. Comp replaced both of them and I returned the new cams to Summit or Jegs for credit and went roller. No more wiped lobes, but retrofit hydraulic rollers were a whole nother fuster cluck and I bought Morels because they are supposed to be good lifters and they are the same height as the stock magnum lifters. I swapped to magnum heads at the same time. Anyway 3 of the Morels weren't machined properly and wouldn't oil the rockers. Finally got that fixed, after paying for two more pairs of lifters plus overnight shipping, again. They are still noisy though.
Posted By: Sniper

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by BSB67
Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by BSB67
Originally Posted by Sniper
maybe they should get a better supplier for their cores.


So you think they have a choice. Who do you recommend?



When your supplier is crap and you can't find better guess what? You do it yourself. They'd be better off taking OEM cores out of junkyard and redoing those.



Yep. that's what Comp should do, go to junk yards.


OEM flat tappet cams never had a 25% failure rate. As a core for a quality regrind OEM cams are better choice than the crap CC is using now.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 12:30 AM

The cam in my Savoy now is a Howards solid flat tappet is still running fine. It's fairly aggressive 620/612 256@50. I used Howards EDM lifters and Gibbs break in oil with inner springs removed and followed Howards break in procedure. Almost 2 years and only set the lash once since the install and that was just for maintenance inspection.
I wouldn't buy another Comp cam with all the other options out there twocents

Gus beer
Posted By: Mr PotatoHead

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 12:48 AM

I often wonder if many of these failed cams users actually take the time to clean/check lifter bores, make sure they will slip though the bores and actually spin on the cam, the basic stuff needed. I noticed for a while some even included some paperwork on the most basic stuff.

Ive used some of the more aggressive lobe comp solid cams and never an issue with just making sure the basic things are "ok".

I know I see many engine assemblers on you tube who could do a whole lot better and makes me wonder how there junk can even run past break in. Simple things in from the machine shop bag to the stand, zero cleaning. Parts straight from the mfg. boxes to the block. No checking, no cleaning. Lifters straight from the box to the block... to me it no wonder some things fail. The the guys who toss a crank in and you see there fingers and arms strain just to get the crank to turn in the block..... super.

I know its not all the end user but I wonder about many are.
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 12:52 AM

OEMs gave up on flat tappet cam tech back in the 80s. Not really sure why anyone would use ancient tech in a build now. So many street friendly roller profiles out there to choose from. I lost a Comp solid flat tappet years ago...yes I did everything right, break in, springs, Brad Penn oil, etc. Put a Comp street solid roller in it and never looked back. Runs fantastic! Should have done the roller in the 1st place would have saved me $$$$ and headache. Live and learn. twocents
Posted By: Mr PotatoHead

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 12:57 AM

No setup is flaw free.




Originally Posted by Dcuda69
OEMs gave up on flat tappet cam tech back in the 80s. Not really sure why anyone would use ancient tech in a build now. So many street friendly roller profiles out there to choose from. I lost a Comp solid flat tappet years ago...yes I did everything right, break in, springs, Brad Penn oil, etc. Put a Comp street solid roller in it and never looked back. Runs fantastic! Should have done the roller in the 1st place would have saved me $$$$ and headache. Live and learn. twocents


Attached picture Screenshot 2022-09-22 at 18-52-07 Think Twice Before Buying from Comp Cams (Engine Failure) - Bing video.png
Attached picture Screenshot 2022-09-22 at 18-53-36 Think Twice Before Buying from Comp Cams (Engine Failure) - Bing video.png
Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 01:54 AM

How often do you need to have the roller lifters rebuilt in these retrofit applications? Not all of us need that last few horsepower and want an oem type lifespan. I wouldn’t want to pick up a new winter maintenance item unless it’s a last resort. I can’t imagine a stock rebuild would net out much by going roller anyway.
Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 02:07 AM

I would call Jim at Racer Brown, ask him if he’s seeing the same issues
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 02:11 AM

Roller lifters have been in OEM applications since the late 80's. How much more OE life span can you get? I'm either going to put mechanical rollers in mine or figure out a way to mount the stock magnum spider and yokes in my LA block so I can use stock magnum lifters, or I may just build a stroker magnum, I haven't decided yet.
Posted By: MarkZ

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
I had two Comp Cams mild hydraulic flat tappets wipe lobes within 20 minutes. I've been doing this for 45 years as a professional so I know what I'm doing. I did everything right and they still wiped lobes, the Summit cam before them had no problems. Comp replaced both of them and I returned the new cams to Summit or Jegs for credit and went roller. No more wiped lobes, but retrofit hydraulic rollers were a whole nother fuster cluck and I bought Morels because they are supposed to be good lifters and they are the same height as the stock magnum lifters. I swapped to magnum heads at the same time. Anyway 3 of the Morels weren't machined properly and wouldn't oil the rockers. Finally got that fixed, after paying for two more pairs of lifters plus overnight shipping, again. They are still noisy though.


I built my first aftermarket roller motor a couple of years ago. Comp retrofit roller lifters and a cam. Sounds like a sewing machine. Wasn't prepared for how noisy it would be.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by Diplomat360
Originally Posted by DaveRS23
At a 25% failure rate, shouldn't the cam grinder take stronger action than to only 'offer' additional services? Something like a strong declaration as to the failure rate without the additional services...

You know, if that number is true, it's attrocious. But heck, let's cut them some slack and assume it's actually better, say 5% failure rate...is that really "better" though???

I mean who out there, any of us for that matter, would accept an airline ticket with a 5% failure rate? How about municipal water services that guarantee you only 5% of your water being un-consumable? ...what about a bank that tells you about 5% of your transactions will fail???

Yeah, so I am purposely being dramatic here, but hasn't anyone at these companies ever studied SixSigma prinicples? (we are talking here 0.00034% failure rate)

I'm an IT person by profession, my products (software and interfaces) use these kind of metrics...so why can't an Engineering & Manufacturing company apply them?

bow
they can IF they want to, But I believe their focus is on $$ not quality. Especially so since they were bought.
In addition as mentioned, the demand for performance flat tappets camshafts is dropping so, their focus on addressing or improving anything is not there. Make it cheaper and ship it. No different than drum brake shoe linings vs disc, Same sh-t different period. twocents
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
How often do you need to have the roller lifters rebuilt in these retrofit applications? Not all of us need that last few horsepower and want an oem type lifespan. I wouldn’t want to pick up a new winter maintenance item unless it’s a last resort. I can’t imagine a stock rebuild would net out much by going roller anyway.


I think that would depend on how many miles you put on and how aggressive the cam is. I only put a few hundred miles/year on and check lash every few years...zero issues(mine has been together roughly 10 yrs). Going roller wasn't about every last HP more about OEM longevity. Every pushrod V8 built since the mid 80s has been roller cam equipped......millions of miles proving rollers work.
Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
Roller lifters have been in OEM applications since the late 80's. How much more OE life span can you get? I'm either going to put mechanical rollers in mine or figure out a way to mount the stock magnum spider and yokes in my LA block so I can use stock magnum lifters, or I may just build a stroker magnum, I haven't decided yet.


No roller lifters on a big block. Hence my comment on retrofits.
Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by Dcuda69
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
How often do you need to have the roller lifters rebuilt in these retrofit applications? Not all of us need that last few horsepower and want an oem type lifespan. I wouldn’t want to pick up a new winter maintenance item unless it’s a last resort. I can’t imagine a stock rebuild would net out much by going roller anyway.


I think that would depend on how many miles you put on and how aggressive the cam is. I only put a few hundred miles/year on and check lash every few years...zero issues(mine has been together roughly 10 yrs). Going roller wasn't about every last HP more about OEM longevity. Every pushrod V8 built since the mid 80s has been roller cam equipped......millions of miles proving rollers work.


Cool. Sign me up for oem quality lifters on my 440. I’m well aware of when the rollers became common in new cars.
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
Originally Posted by Dcuda69
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
How often do you need to have the roller lifters rebuilt in these retrofit applications? Not all of us need that last few horsepower and want an oem type lifespan. I wouldn’t want to pick up a new winter maintenance item unless it’s a last resort. I can’t imagine a stock rebuild would net out much by going roller anyway.


I think that would depend on how many miles you put on and how aggressive the cam is. I only put a few hundred miles/year on and check lash every few years...zero issues(mine has been together roughly 10 yrs). Going roller wasn't about every last HP more about OEM longevity. Every pushrod V8 built since the mid 80s has been roller cam equipped......millions of miles proving rollers work.


Cool. Sign me up for oem quality lifters on my 440. I’m well aware of when the rollers became common in new cars.


Pick a OEM style mild hyd roller and enjoy! Mine is a street solid and has been good.....242/248 @.050 and .570 lift in a 470 low deck
Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 02:19 PM

A couple of thoughts here; first I see some amount of debate on whether bushings or bearings are better in roller lifters. And that debate can be as divisive as the flat vs roller debate. And there is also the debate on inspections and rebuilds of the roller lifters, at least in some applications.

And second; to compare the mild stock applications of roller lifters in modern engines designed for them to our retrofitting of them in our engines with typically much faster ramps, heavier valve trains and much stiffer springs is apples to oranges.

And I will add one more thing that I see happen; our old dinosaurs usually sit for some length of time between starts. So the engine is relatively dry of oil and it takes a bit of time for the oil to get everywhere. For the FT cams that do make it through the break in process, this can be a slow death by a thousand cuts. I just wonder if more guys had a means of pre-lubing their engine before cold starts if there would be less cam failures further down the road. It is something that I always do on my FT cam Hemi and so far, so good after 6 years.
Posted By: randavis

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by MarkZ
Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
I had two Comp Cams mild hydraulic flat tappets wipe lobes within 20 minutes. I've been doing this for 45 years as a professional so I know what I'm doing. I did everything right and they still wiped lobes, the Summit cam before them had no problems. Comp replaced both of them and I returned the new cams to Summit or Jegs for credit and went roller. No more wiped lobes, but retrofit hydraulic rollers were a whole nother fuster cluck and I bought Morels because they are supposed to be good lifters and they are the same height as the stock magnum lifters. I swapped to magnum heads at the same time. Anyway 3 of the Morels weren't machined properly and wouldn't oil the rockers. Finally got that fixed, after paying for two more pairs of lifters plus overnight shipping, again. They are still noisy though.


I built my first aftermarket roller motor a couple of years ago. Comp retrofit roller lifters and a cam. Sounds like a sewing machine. Wasn't prepared for how noisy it would be.


I had a similar experience. I had a 440 based 512 built with a Comp hydraulic roller. It was so noisy, you could hear them with open headers. The engine builder didn't beleive me, so I trailered the car 100 miles to his shop and fired it up. He said that he had never had that happen before and offered to replace the Comp lifters with Morels or put solid rollers on it. He didn't know if the Morels would be quieter, but he said he was confident that the solids would not be that noisy. I went with the solids. They are still noisy, but not as bad as the hydraulics. He did that on his own dime. I believe he told me he set the valve lash to .010. I haven't run the valves since he built it. That is on the "to do list" for this winter.
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 02:58 PM

Here are two pics of the inside of the Morels. In the second pic you can see where the machined channel intersects the oil hole in the body. In the first pic you can see the channel doesn't meet the oil hole.


Attached picture 20200529_135837_resized[74].jpg
Attached picture 20200529_135851_resized[73].jpg
Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 05:13 PM

Three words...

Industrial Opportunity Partners


Comp Cams started in 1975, Did their people all of a sudden forget how to do it?
Posted By: 6PKRTSE

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 06:09 PM

We always get our hyd f.t. cams ground on steel cores at an extra cost or pay for the extra nitride process on cast cams.
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/23/22 07:00 PM

I have been using them mostly but also other brands for 30 years and have had zero failures, I think a lot of them are people just throwing them in and hoping for the best. I ALWAYS make sure every single lifter is rotating on the stand turning the engine by hand and if they don't twist as it goes over the lobe you can do a few things to make it happen... for starters I clean the lifter bore with a wire brush (after pressure washing and degreasing the entire block and once it is dry use the wire brush so not even flash rust can be in the bore)in a drill as any tiny burr or rust spec can keep them from turning and I almost never have an issue after this step, next thing to do if there is a stubborn one is switch them from one bore to another, sometimes the combination of the exact lifter crown, lobe taper, bore position don't get one rotating but moving them around will usually get them rotating. Other things I do to theoretically help anyhow is I always make sure everything is super ultra mega clean and use STP on the foot and lobes of the cam and besides that I just use whatever oil I can get cheapest in the weight I want, I also polish both of the tips of the pushrod as shiny as I can possilby get them so they don't have any chance of resisting rotation, always prime the engine before IMMEDIETLY BEFORE not days ahead of time! first start so the sides of the lifter are well lubed and not resisting rotation and it will build back pressure there as soon as it fires as that film between the lifter and bore allows it to rotate easier. If you are running a very fast rate lobe use dychem on the lifter to make sure it is not hitting the edge of the lifter, if it does you need your block bushed or a less aggressive lobe.

I have also used a few used cams and they can be harder to get them to rotate and sometimes switching lifter bore around will get them rotating on the engine stand, the lifter bore in your new engine may not be at the exact same angle as the old block they were installed and broke in on so keeping them on the original lobe don't mean a whole lot and in my opinion it is more important to find a lobe it rotates on than it is to keep it on the original lobe.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/24/22 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by CMcAllister
Three words...

Industrial Opportunity Partners


Comp Cams started in 1975, Did their people all of a sudden forget how to do it?


No they were likely let go for cheaper entry level people with no long term knowledge by Industrial Opportunity Partners
if one thinks about it, a 25 year old college grad that was hired on in 1982 is now 65 and making $$ plus bennies.
IOP says we can get 2 or more for what we're paying the old fart. So out the door all that experience goes. Eager beaver new hire want's to make a name for himself so they start tweaking things to save cost and make themselves look good. yeah there's some problems cropping up but the focus is on Current technology and $$$$$ so no one's really paying attention or cares.
twocents
Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/24/22 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by CMcAllister
Three words...

Industrial Opportunity Partners


Comp Cams started in 1975, Did their people all of a sudden forget how to do it?


No they were likely let go for cheaper entry level people with no long term knowledge by Industrial Opportunity Partners
if one thinks about it, a 25 year old college grad that was hired on in 1982 is now 65 and making $$ plus bennies.
IOP says we can get 2 or more for what we're paying the old fart. So out the door all that experience goes. Eager beaver new hire want's to make a name for himself so they start tweaking things to save cost and make themselves look good. yeah there's some problems cropping up but the focus is on Current technology and $$$$$ so no one's really paying attention or cares.
twocents


Have heard that more than once. MSD, Racepak, Edelbrock, probably some others I've forgotten...
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/24/22 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by CMcAllister
Three words...

Industrial Opportunity Partners


Comp Cams started in 1975, Did their people all of a sudden forget how to do it?


No they were likely let go for cheaper entry level people with no long term knowledge by Industrial Opportunity Partners
if one thinks about it, a 25 year old college grad that was hired on in 1982 is now 65 and making $$ plus bennies.
IOP says we can get 2 or more for what we're paying the old fart. So out the door all that experience goes. Eager beaver new hire want's to make a name for himself so they start tweaking things to save cost and make themselves look good. yeah there's some problems cropping up but the focus is on Current technology and $$$$$ so no one's really paying attention or cares.
twocents


Yep! My wife was in manufacturing for 35+ years at the same company. They decided she made too much $$ and "eliminated" her position. She took a few months off then landed a place where she's appreciated. Her old place reached out to her after a year saying they needed her experience back...lol....she told them to pack sand. The place won't make it another year.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/24/22 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Dcuda69
Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by CMcAllister
Three words...

Industrial Opportunity Partners


Comp Cams started in 1975, Did their people all of a sudden forget how to do it?


No they were likely let go for cheaper entry level people with no long term knowledge by Industrial Opportunity Partners
if one thinks about it, a 25 year old college grad that was hired on in 1982 is now 65 and making $$ plus bennies.
IOP says we can get 2 or more for what we're paying the old fart. So out the door all that experience goes. Eager beaver new hire want's to make a name for himself so they start tweaking things to save cost and make themselves look good. yeah there's some problems cropping up but the focus is on Current technology and $$$$$ so no one's really paying attention or cares.
twocents


Yep! My wife was in manufacturing for 35+ years at the same company. They decided she made too much $$ and "eliminated" her position. She took a few months off then landed a place where she's appreciated. Her old place reached out to her after a year saying they needed her experience back...lol....she told them to pack sand. The place won't make it another year.


Unfortunately, I've witnessed it to many times. I think ones best bet might be to look for smaller independently owned suppliers/ manufacturers as they have to pay attention to their sourcing quality and will suffer much more if they don't. IE: Howard's cams, Isky, Hughes, etc. twocents
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/24/22 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by Dcuda69
Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by CMcAllister
Three words...

Industrial Opportunity Partners


Comp Cams started in 1975, Did their people all of a sudden forget how to do it?


No they were likely let go for cheaper entry level people with no long term knowledge by Industrial Opportunity Partners
if one thinks about it, a 25 year old college grad that was hired on in 1982 is now 65 and making $$ plus bennies.
IOP says we can get 2 or more for what we're paying the old fart. So out the door all that experience goes. Eager beaver new hire want's to make a name for himself so they start tweaking things to save cost and make themselves look good. yeah there's some problems cropping up but the focus is on Current technology and $$$$$ so no one's really paying attention or cares.
twocents


Yep! My wife was in manufacturing for 35+ years at the same company. They decided she made too much $$ and "eliminated" her position. She took a few months off then landed a place where she's appreciated. Her old place reached out to her after a year saying they needed her experience back...lol....she told them to pack sand. The place won't make it another year.


Unfortunately, I've witnessed it to many times. I think ones best bet might be to look for smaller independently owned suppliers/ manufacturers as they have to pay attention to their sourcing quality and will suffer much more if they don't. IE: Howard's cams, Isky, Hughes, etc. twocents


Every time we had a quality issue at Chrysler that I was involved in, it usually came from the manufacture not following established and agreed to quality control measures. If we were the manufacturer (internal plant) we didn’t maintain the existing quality controls and inspections.

External suppliers, usually the same thing. Sometimes they would purposely “thrift” the process or materials.
Sometimes someone would make a change not realizing the impact of the change.

I have never seen any internal or external supplier do it knowing it would cause quality issues.

As for 25% failure - 97.5% of estimates are made up.

As for the earlier mentioned issue of some used parts being recycled as new - at Chrysler, General Counsel stated that was against Federal Law.

Posted By: 340SIX

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/25/22 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by Dcuda69
Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by CMcAllister
Three words...

Industrial Opportunity Partners


Comp Cams started in 1975, Did their people all of a sudden forget how to do it?


No they were likely let go for cheaper entry level people with no long term knowledge by Industrial Opportunity Partners
if one thinks about it, a 25 year old college grad that was hired on in 1982 is now 65 and making $$ plus bennies.
IOP says we can get 2 or more for what we're paying the old fart. So out the door all that experience goes. Eager beaver new hire want's to make a name for himself so they start tweaking things to save cost and make themselves look good. yeah there's some problems cropping up but the focus is on Current technology and $$$$$ so no one's really paying attention or cares.
twocents


Yep! My wife was in manufacturing for 35+ years at the same company. They decided she made too much $$ and "eliminated" her position. She took a few months off then landed a place where she's appreciated. Her old place reached out to her after a year saying they needed her experience back...lol....she told them to pack sand. The place won't make it another year.


Unfortunately, I've witnessed it to many times. I think ones best bet might be to look for smaller independently owned suppliers/ manufacturers as they have to pay attention to their sourcing quality and will suffer much more if they don't. IE: Howard's cams, Isky, Hughes, etc. twocents

Hughes does not make cams. Thet buy them and resell.
When the 1st started had Engle grind them. And it was Engle profiles
My last 3 cams were Engle custom grinds. Just ordered a,Custom Ground Solid Flat Tappet.
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/25/22 11:48 AM

yesterday i did a 180+ mile road trip on an Engle solid flat tappet. probably have 22,000+ miles on it. i really believe, no matter the tappet, that if you want longevity be careful about what lobes you pick. for longevity and reliable use i like some of those old crane profiles. some of those old crane lobe profiles are still being ground out there.
Posted By: 2boltmain

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/25/22 12:28 PM

While there always will be installers who make mistakes this current rash of lifter failures is years old and not due to installer neglect. Across all makes- GM Ford Mopar the failures are high. Not just with cams and lifters but all aftermarket go fast parts. But say- a poorly made MSD box or Pertronix conversion kit wont fill your engine with metal like a wiped cam.
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/25/22 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
Roller lifters have been in OEM applications since the late 80's. How much more OE life span can you get? I'm either going to put mechanical rollers in mine or figure out a way to mount the stock magnum spider and yokes in my LA block so I can use stock magnum lifters, or I may just build a stroker magnum, I haven't decided yet.


I am going down that same route. I've been asked why, why don't you just use a Magnum engine and be through with it? If I can pull this off with a 360, there is no reason I can see that you couldn't do it on a 340. Stock exterior appearance with a modern, proven, streetable, valve train. That is the ultimate goal. Then I've been told I'll be giving up all that potential horsepower with this arrangement. Not everything needs 500 hp. Just my twocents
Posted By: 2boltmain

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/25/22 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
Roller lifters have been in OEM applications since the late 80's. How much more OE life span can you get? I'm either going to put mechanical rollers in mine or figure out a way to mount the stock magnum spider and yokes in my LA block so I can use stock magnum lifters, or I may just build a stroker magnum, I haven't decided yet.


I am going down that same route. I've been asked why, why don't you just use a Magnum engine and be through with it? If I can pull this off with a 360, there is no reason I can see that you couldn't do it on a 340. Stock exterior appearance with a modern, proven, streetable, valve train. That is the ultimate goal. Then I've been told I'll be giving up all that potential horsepower with this arrangement. Not everything needs 500 hp. Just my twocents


The good news is the 318/360 Magnum was made from 1993 to 2003 and currently can EASILY be found in any pick and pull yard.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/25/22 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by CMcAllister


Unfortunately, I've witnessed it to many times. I think ones best bet might be to look for smaller independently owned suppliers/ manufacturers as they have to pay attention to their sourcing quality and will suffer much more if they don't. IE: Howard's cams, Isky, Hughes, etc. twocents

Hughes does not make cams. Thet buy them and resell.
When the 1st started had Engle grind them. And it was Engle profiles
My last 3 cams were Engle custom grinds. Just ordered a,Custom Ground Solid Flat Tappet.


just to clarify, I did not say Hughes made their own cams. My point was a smaller supplier like hughes is going to be real careful on choosing their supplier. I also wonder if it is the Cam or Lifter causing the issue shruggy years ago there were limited manufactureres on lifters. not sure if that's still true today beer
Posted By: rickseeman

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/25/22 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by 6PKRTSE
We always get our hyd f.t. cams ground on steel cores at an extra cost or pay for the extra nitride process on cast cams.


I paid the extra money for the nitride process twice and they lasted an extra 5 minutes. So the last time I bought the steel core and the tool steel lifters.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/25/22 07:37 PM

My last 2 solid flat cams had EDM lifters and they both lived until I decided to change them. Maybe there is something to this little oil hole shruggy
Has anyone here heard of a failure when using EDM lifters?
Gus beer
Posted By: 6PKRTSE

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/25/22 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by rickseeman
Originally Posted by 6PKRTSE
We always get our hyd f.t. cams ground on steel cores at an extra cost or pay for the extra nitride process on cast cams.


I paid the extra money for the nitride process twice and they lasted an extra 5 minutes. So the last time I bought the steel core and the tool steel lifters.


I have a Comp XE292 hyd f.t. in my Charger. I broke it in with outer springs only. After break in I put the inner springs back in and has been fine since. I have around 55,000 miles on it so far.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/26/22 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by 6PKRTSE
I have a Comp XE292 hyd f.t. in my Charger. I broke it in with outer springs only. After break in I put the inner springs back in and has been fine since. I have around 55,000 miles on it so far.


How long ago was the cam purchased (in years)? Just asking as they WERE a good source wink
Posted By: 6PKRTSE

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/26/22 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by 6PKRTSE
I have a Comp XE292 hyd f.t. in my Charger. I broke it in with outer springs only. After break in I put the inner springs back in and has been fine since. I have around 55,000 miles on it so far.


How long ago was the cam purchased (in years)? Just asking as they WERE a good source wink


Wow, thinking back on it more now I guess that this engine has been back together since 2007. Man, how time flies as you get older.
Posted By: GomangoCuda

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/26/22 03:55 PM

Quote

.Man, how time flies as you get older.

The older you get the faster you get older
Posted By: TJP

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 09/27/22 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by 6PKRTSE
Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by 6PKRTSE
I have a Comp XE292 hyd f.t. in my Charger. I broke it in with outer springs only. After break in I put the inner springs back in and has been fine since. I have around 55,000 miles on it so far.


How long ago was the cam purchased (in years)? Just asking as they WERE a good source wink


Wow, thinking back on it more now I guess that this engine has been back together since 2007. Man, how time flies as you get older.


In 2007 they were still a reputable company IMO. they started hitting the shi--er about 7 years back maybe a bit earlier.
Posted By: moparx

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/04/22 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by GomangoCuda
Quote

.Man, how time flies as you get older.

The older you get the faster you get older





and "it's friday again, already !".................. eek biggrin panic laugh2
beer
Posted By: 2boltmain

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/06/22 12:33 AM

Youtuber out of Canada named D and D Speed shop installed a Hyd flat tappet Thumper cam in a smogger 454 about 2 months ago. He just released a video of a ground to a pulp lifter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WfDM-nonLQ
Posted By: Mr PotatoHead

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/06/22 01:05 AM

Hard call on that one, guy does not seem that well versed on much.
Posted By: GODSCOUNTRY340

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/06/22 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by 2boltmain
Youtuber out of Canada named D and D Speed shop installed a Hyd flat tappet Thumper cam in a smogger 454 about 2 months ago. He just released a video of a ground to a pulp lifter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WfDM-nonLQ





I guess this answers my question. Around 12 years ago I had a friend put a Comp cam into a 440 and it lasted a whole 52 miles before failing like the one in the video. Maybe the bean counters think they'll sell more cams this way, sorry, that's not how it works.
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/06/22 03:17 PM

Personally I think it's a crap shoot. I lost a Comp SFT after 800 mi. Not my 1st engine build so I did it all "right"......break in, Brad Penn oil,etc. Around the same time my buddy lost a MP SFT that had MANY miles on it(unsure what oil) I switched to a Comp street solid roller, he switched to the same Comp SFT I lost.....both have been fine for many years now. My neighbor lost two SBC hyd flat tappets....neither were Comps. Another dude lost a Ford hyd. flat tappet in a SBF.

I still think rollers are the way to go in todays world. Are they fool proof? No. But I still think it's the better bet. Do they cost more? Sure. But doing mine twice cost a bunch more that if I had put the roller in to start with.

Just because it's a roller doesn't mean it has to be a race roller....many street friendly profiles out there or have someone make one. Hell...lots of guys running SFTs that are WAY more aggressive than my solid roller. twocents
Posted By: TJP

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/07/22 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by GODSCOUNTRY340
I guess this answers my question. Around 12 years ago I had a friend put a Comp cam into a 440 and it lasted a whole 52 miles before failing like the one in the video. Maybe the bean counters think they'll sell more cams this way, sorry, that's not how it works.

i believe a lot of it has to do with corporate greed by the Exec's as well as a changing of the guard. IE: The management that built the companies have retired and their replacements grew up in a different world.
I have had several bad experience's with products from well know Japanese companies recently and there seems to be little interest in addressing them. It's now about the $$ If you want quality you may have to go with smaller companies that are privately owned as they have to push quality or they won't survive twocents
EDIT
Add in inexperienced engineers trying to make themselves look good reducing costs by eliminating what THEY think are not needed spank
Posted By: GODSCOUNTRY340

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/07/22 01:28 PM

Here's what really makes you think, I've had an older Mopar Performance Hemi grind cam in a 340 for 20 years, still using the oils of today and it lasts and lasts. The manufacturing processes they're using today are substandard. Looks like these companies are skipping a hardening process to save money knowing they can just blame the consumer ( improper break-in) or the oils for their cam failures.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/10/22 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by TJP

If you want quality you may have to go with smaller companies that are privately owned as they have to push quality or they won't survive twocents
EDIT
:


When a "small" company starts making flat tappet cams of high quality, for 50 year old engines, expect the cost to triple. Same for the lifters. Then you'll need to decide hyd roller or paying nearly as much for a flat tappet.


Everyone seems to know what is wrong. Seems easy, just go out back, fire up your electric arc furnace, hire a few dudes and cast 30 BB Mopar fltat tappet cam cores/day, machine them up, and sell them for $175. You'll be rich.





Posted By: Sniper

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/10/22 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by BSB67
Originally Posted by TJP

If you want quality you may have to go with smaller companies that are privately owned as they have to push quality or they won't survive twocents
EDIT
:


When a "small" company starts making flat tappet cams of high quality, for 50 year old engines, expect the cost to triple. Same for the lifters. Then you'll need to decide hyd roller or paying nearly as much for a flat tappet.


Everyone seems to know what is wrong. Seems easy, just go out back, fire up your electric arc furnace, hire a few dudes and cast 30 BB Mopar fltat tappet cam cores/day, machine them up, and sell them for $175. You'll be rich.







I can get my original cam from my 51 Plymouth reground to performance specifications and my lifter's redone for less than $175 and have zero core issues. But if you are stuck on "new" cores you get what you get.
Posted By: moparx

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/10/22 05:08 PM

is it even possible to get a factory cam from say, a 70's 440, reground ?
beer
Posted By: TJP

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/10/22 05:21 PM

There are still a few shops that can do it and resurface lifters as well. Some even put a bit more taper on the lobe to promote spinning the lifter when running beer
Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/10/22 11:45 PM

I have had several cams reground over the years and never had a problem. Also had a set of the tool steel lifters refaced. Those are still in my Hemi today.
Posted By: Mr PotatoHead

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/10/22 11:54 PM

Used to be easier then youd think. We used to make our own billet cores for our inline six pull tractor and then send them to crane for the lobe grind. A pretty simple task with the right size lathe. Actually crane would grind them but they are gone now also.



Originally Posted by BSB67
Originally Posted by TJP

If you want quality you may have to go with smaller companies that are privately owned as they have to push quality or they won't survive twocents
EDIT
:


When a "small" company starts making flat tappet cams of high quality, for 50 year old engines, expect the cost to triple. Same for the lifters. Then you'll need to decide hyd roller or paying nearly as much for a flat tappet.


Everyone seems to know what is wrong. Seems easy, just go out back, fire up your electric arc furnace, hire a few dudes and cast 30 BB Mopar fltat tappet cam cores/day, machine them up, and sell them for $175. You'll be rich.





Posted By: BSB67

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/11/22 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by Mr PotatoHead
Used to be easier then youd think. We used to make our own billet cores for our inline six pull tractor and then send them to crane for the lobe grind. A pretty simple task with the right size lathe. Actually crane would grind them but they are gone now also.



Originally Posted by BSB67
Originally Posted by TJP

If you want quality you may have to go with smaller companies that are privately owned as they have to push quality or they won't survive twocents
EDIT
:


When a "small" company starts making flat tappet cams of high quality, for 50 year old engines, expect the cost to triple. Same for the lifters. Then you'll need to decide hyd roller or paying nearly as much for a flat tappet.


Everyone seems to know what is wrong. Seems easy, just go out back, fire up your electric arc furnace, hire a few dudes and cast 30 BB Mopar fltat tappet cam cores/day, machine them up, and sell them for $175. You'll be rich.







Yep. Easy-peasy. What's all the fuss?
Posted By: Sniper

Re: Has Comp fixed their cams? - 10/11/22 01:55 AM

Delta cams can do it, they have a good rep in the flathead community anyway. What your options are I do not know, I don't have a 440 so i didn't look into it.

https://deltacam.com/products/cams/

There is another, but I forget the name.
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