Free 440 teardown. What next?

Hello all!

I received a 440 for free in a trade. 77 block, low compression, cast crank, all stock (even had the original nylon single timing gear, chain was super loose). It did have the thin metal head gaskets though. From my quick measurements, stock bore, no cylinder ridge.
The engine came out of a mud truck, big headers made out of fence pipe, etc. Pretty entertaining.

Anyway, I was hoping to tear it down, re-ring and new bearings then possibly use it for a project I have.

This is what I found. It looks like a bullet hole? in the oil pan and the sludge in the pan indicating bearings run without oil for a short time. No bullet or associated damage could be found.

The engine spins freely by hand, the rods ends are not discolored.

I usually overthink things, so now I am stuck between "re-ring it, new bearing install and send it" and "take it to a machine shop and have them check/machine it all"

What are your opinions?

Thanks,
eightitermopar

The pan looks dented INWARD at the hole. 440 was in a mud truck. Probably hit something. The amateur weekend mud events are performed in swamps, and anything can be on the swamp bottom.

If it really ran without oil for a short time, it needs a complete tear down with measurements and inspection. Could be lots of issues, or very few.
Late 70s 440s were sort of a Hodge podge of remaining parts that got used up, could be some really good stuff inside that motor, or some really weak stuff inside that motor. On top of that, you really have no ides if it really is still containing factory parts. The late 70s was a long time ago, that motor could have been through a lot of stuff, or not.

Before deciding what I would do long term, I sure would be seeing what condition what is there is really in.

this is kinda what I am thinking. By the time I buy rings, bearings, new cam kit and springs, etc. I am into it almost 1K bucks.

I'd hate to roll the dice and destroy it all on my first start up.

The engine has been sitting on a stand in my shop for a while now. I kinda hated opening it up because of project creep. You know, take the air cleaner wingnut off and before you know it, the complete restoration has started.

eightlitermopar

Pull the bearing caps and see whats in there. Post pics.

Does it spin easy?

What are you looking to use it in? If things are ok once you look at the bearings, I’d slap it back together and run it. Check clearances. If it spins free I’m not seeing the issue with giving it a go. That’s a lot of money saved and even some oil burn won’t cost you like a rebuild. I’ve gotten A LOT of use out of factory short blocks most people would insist on going entirely through.

It does spin easy. Even by hand, the short block spins freely. My next day off is next week, I will pull the caps and post pics. Connecting rod ends are NOT discolored.



I have a 71 satellite I wanted to drop it in. It needs some work before it's road worthy though. I'm ok with the low compression because I wanted to run a whiplash cam. Fun street driver and cruiser. But if I could put together this motor and drop it in the car, then I would have some shop space freed up. I'll take some stuff apart and check it with my cheap MIC and post pictures. Thanks for the replies.

eightlitermopar

It is relatively easy to fire these up out on the ground. In fact, years ago I would always fire them up like that before painting and installing them. Nowadays, it is the local speed shop's engine dyno. Just a spare tire under the pan along with a spare trans or bell. Never had a problem doing it but did find an issue or two. Mostly oil leaks that were easier to address at that point.

I haven't installed any engine fresh or not without test running them in over 40 years. Installed one bad used engine in the early 70s and that was enough for me.

Its been awhile since I have actually done any of this, so I'm excited to be doing this again. I have an old truck frame with a v8 cradle I will be starting this on before I drop it in the car. Much easier to fix or troubleshoot, I agree!

eight

I'd at least pull a few rod caps and a main bearing or two. Rod bearings on #5 & #6 were usually the first rod bearings to display low oil issues. Then the front main bearing, and the thrush main bearing.

I've installed a lot of used Mopar big (and small) blocks, a gasket set, intake gasket set if not included, timing chain & gears, fuel pump, water pump, and poke at all the freeze plugs to be sure they are still good was always things that I did with every used motor. Solved a lot of issues that always seemed to show up shortly after the install if those things were not done.

Before you do any more work or start buying parts for this engine you really need to figure out what you want it to do for you when your dome working on the motor
If you don't know what you want to accomplish, you may never know when to stop: work :
BTW, what does low compression have to do with using a Whip Lash grind cam?
One other thing to keep in mind, if this motor is a later external balanced motor you need to run the correct external weighted torque converter and matching year external balanced balancer, AKA vibration dampener

Basically a fun budget backyard rebuild (if possible). Freshen up and run it. The whiplash cams are designed to work with low compression engines without having to get new pistons. If I have to get new pistons and completely redo it, I'd just buy a stroker kit....but that a whole other can of worms.

From the hughes website: "Our Whiplash cam is designed for basically stock, low compression engines. This cam will run on pump gas in a 440 with 8.25:1 or less compression and iron heads...These cams are designed to drive better than the sound would imply. These are killer cruising cams made for low compression engines and are designed so the cylinder pressure will not be reduced (Torque Killer!) like other cams of this size or type."

From my research, you get the all the benefits by just a camshaft/component swap.

eightlitermopar

I have considered this as well. There is an aftermarket flexplate in place, but I don;t think it's correct and will have to address this issue if I choose to run it. Thanks. Often an easily overlooked issue.

eightlitermopar

Bolt a head on and do a leak down. For all you know this thing could be cooked. Mud trucks tend to get the crap beat out of them and overheated to death.

I thought of the hard life this engine has had. I thought of the leak down test too late after I tore it all down. I may slap it back together just to do that. That's why I'm on the fence with how far I want to take this at this point. The engine is on a stand in my shop, kind of in my way which is why I wanted to do something with it. If I choose not to mess with it right away I'll just tuck it in the corner for now.

Gone are the days of doing a light hone, rings and bearings on the cheap. The mopar hobby was never cheap, but it's just gotten more expensive. Makes me less willing to take the gamble

eightlitermopar

I would look at the internals and see if it's all stock. The timing gear may be an indication that is is but the engine is 45 years old and you don't know it's history. IF you can get away with a hone and new rings you will be saving a lot instead of bore and pistons. Same goes for the rest of the engine, If it's needs replacing now is the time to do it.

You could still clean a old metal gasket and coat it with a sealant and bolt a head down. Then run the test. If bad you know it should be ringed. Would be a lot easier to do it now instead of wasting time and money on a wore out huffer.

The days of stuffing a used unknow motor into a car and driving it are over. This stuff has simply been sitting too long to expect that to be a good outcome.

Rings, bearings, gaskets, a quick hone and clean up was a $200 "rebuild" back in the mid 80s, adding a cam & lifter kit was another $150. Timing chain and gears added another $60. That was back when a real rebuild was $2,000 + depending on how carried away you got. I did a ton of abuse and 60K + miles on a lot of those $450 "rebuilds".

So that cost has jumped to a grand now, when a full on rebuild is 6 grand +. OK! Still looks like a deal, if the basic motor is sound. Find out if the motor is sound first, check the bearings. A leak down test on a motor I'd be re-ringing wouldn't give much useful information, except maybe the possible condition of the heads.

The motor was in a mud truck, Over heating or under water would not be an unexpected event, it did have a hole in the oil pan, water probably got in there. A quick hone & rings, and rod & mains would be expected, as long as the crank and rods are still good. The heads and a new cam are over and above.

On stock external balance Mopar V8 the balance weights are on the converter, not the flex plates
Some of the aftermarket race flex plates may have weights on them

Thanks for all the replies guys. This is all what I kinda figured, but maybe wasn't ready to accept. It has been over a decade since I have torn down and did a basic rebuild. I may take it to a machine shop just to get everything checked out.

I did have a question about the external balance. I don't have the original torque converter, so I don't know about what weight to apply to a new converter.
All of the external balanced big blocks I have used in the past had the converter with it. If we swapped converters after that, we knew what weight to add to the new converter.

Anyway, Thanks again for the bench racing/building session!

If none are spun and the crank looks good put it together and run it, or put bearings and rings in it and run it. If it was oil starved for significant time you will see it, and it probably wouldn’t spin easy.

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If none are spun and the crank looks good put it together and run it, or put bearings and rings in it and run it. If it was oil starved for significant time you will see it, and it probably wouldn’t spin easy. [/quote]

I'll take off the caps and inspect. I will also post some pictures next week when I tear it down, thanks

Take a good look at the top and bottom bearings on both the rods and Mains
if any of the rod bearings fall out of the rod caps replace them now so they won't spin later, same thing on the main bearings, if they are loose in the caps replace them.

I seem to recall the weight put on the convertor was 50 grams. I’m sure the number is floating around in cyberspace.

That sounds familiar. Years ago we were able to buy a weight from somewhere (don't recall) and welded it on a new neutral balance converter for an external balance engine we used. Were these weights in the same spot on the converter on every rotating assembly?

eightlitermopar

Weights and location varied depending on application.

B+M makes a weighted flex plate for external balanced engines so you can use a neutral balanced converter. It's a lot easier to use than trying to get the weights welded on in the proper place and proper weight. The last one I bought was several years ago from Summit Racing. At the time I paid $100, they're probably $150 now.

I saw this flexplate at mancini.

So, to clarify, you would use this flexplate and that eliminates a need for a welded weight on the converter, correct?

eightlitermopar

i believe that is correct.

Yes.