Lares Manual Steering Box

Looking for a new box for my 70 Cuda with manual steering. I think I am going to stick with the standard 24:1 box. It appears Lares sells both "new" and "remanufactured" products. The "new" box is actually less expensive than the "remanufactured" box. The Lares web page does not seem to highlight what is different between the two options. In general it seems "new" should be better than "remanufactured" but given the price difference there must be a catch.

Does anyone know how they differ? Is one factory appearing, and the other not?

Thanks!

Call them an ask. Several places sell those steering boxes so if Lares doesn't know the answer then shop around until you find someone who knows. I haven't had one of those boxes in my hand and I don't know who builds them but if you do some searching you can find people who have bought them.

always this option too.
I post on another forum and PST does 10% off for members there, they also do 10% off sales somewhat regularly...

https://p-s-t.com/series-220280-manual-steering-box.html#ps-add-prods

Reman have a core charge on it?

I did buy from them. Good piece. Sorry, don't remember if I bought new or reman. No complaints.

TJP, thanks for the bump!

Slantzilla, yes there is a $50 core charge on the remanufactured box. I want to keep the original part for the car, so would not return a core, making the reman option more expensive than "new".

Andy,

Your response prompted me to check their website more, and I did submit a question via their contact page. If I don't hear back Monday, I will try to call them during daytime hours.

Thx

Krautrock,

My recollection is fuzzy, but is the PST box made of cast iron and slightly different in appearance than factory? I thought the factory box is cast aluminum.

The Flaming River box is cast iron. PST might have sold the Flaming River box at one time but they now sell the aftermarket aluminum box. I don't know who makes the aftermarket aluminum box, I assume it is an offshore product but I don't know. I think they have been around for a few years. There was a thread over on FABO a couple years back about those boxes. I've never seen one in person myself.

I have a 16:1 ratio manual box from PST, in the process of putting it on now so haven't driven with it.
The Gear box is aluminum and weighs 14lbs, looks like a factory manual box to me...

I have a new Lares from Rock Auto in my 68 GTS. It is aluminum and every bit as good as the OEM box I had upgraded to 16:1. Unless I am trying to preserve number I always buy new.

I will say that unless your box is totally hammered they are easy to rebuild cheap too if the gears are good. a cople of bearings, a bushings, gasket and two seals

Well, a representative from Lares responded to my questions but didn't completely clear up with the confusion so I may need to talk on the phone to someone. The rep said their two options are the same in appearance, fit, and function with the only difference being one is new and the other is remanufactured. He then went on to indicate the case is cast iron..... Just to check my sanity I went to the garage and put a magnet on my manual box and it does not stick. I have to believe that the remanufactured boxes are based on original MOPAR boxes and hence cast aluminum.

Krautrock, you indicated your PST box is aluminum and weighs 14 lbs. Lares indicates the shipping weight for both new and remanufactured is 14 lbs. Jeremiah indicates his Lares box is aluminum. So I am thinking the Lares rep gave the wrong answer on the case material. Is it possible that an aluminum case box could weigh the same as a cast iron case box? I wanted to avoid a cast iron box on the thought it would add needless weight to the car.

Andy, I will try to find that FABO thread.

TJP: I'm not sure of the condition of my box (last thing to remove). I will say the steering was pretty darn spooky prior to putting the car on jack stands. The LCA pivots had a bunch of play once removed and now that the LCA bushing has been replaced they still have some play (not sure what is normal) but less than before. Idler arm was replaced recently (was clearly bad also) which helped but did not cure the spooky-ness. Pitman seems tight but I decided to just replace everything. I'm not sure how hard it will be to pull the box (BB with headers) and my goal is to avoid doing this twice so I'm not sure if I want to tackle the self rebuild!

Anyway I will try to confirm the case material with Lares over the phone, and update this post for others if I get more clarity.

I give you my word that i have a Lares steering box and it is aluminum.

Jeremiah, thanks for the confirmation. And you had purchased the 'new' part (11030),correct? I wasn't trying to question your response, just trying to avoid a unpleasant surprise down the road since the Lares rep did not clear things up.

looks like aluminum to me.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=7516064&cc=1228700&jsn=1325

I used a 16:1 box, pn 18831. Looking at rockauto the new 24:1 box is out of stock.

You may want to verify that the ("spookiness") play is in the box. once verified it is,
Step #1 is to disconnect the steering box at either end of the ptiman arm.
#2 turn the steering wheel all the way either direction until it stops
#3 count the exact number of turns to hit the stop in the opposite direction. ( If i remember correctly it s/be about 5-3/8 turns
#4 Turn the wheel back exactly 1/2 the number of turns. 2-11/16or 3/4 turns This will center the worm and sector gears for adjustment.
#5 Loosen the locknut on top of the steering box cover several turns while holding the adjusting screw stationary.
#6 turn the adjusting screw in just until a slight amount of resistance is felt or the paly is eliminated. BAck the screw up 1/4 to 1/2 turn.
#7 while holding the scre stationary tighten the locknut.
#8 Reconnect the steering pitman. do not be surprised if the tie rods need adjusting to align the pitman with the splines on the box.
the box is now centered and adjusted properly and the steering wheel should be centered.
if the play is eliminated you may have to get the ties rods/ toe reset to center the wheel when going straight down the road.
There are other adjustments and wern components that will cause the excess play but this one is the most common cause.

If you over adjust the sector or do so without it being centered on the worm it will cause a "binding" feeling when going on direction or the other

check the factory service manual for adjustment instructions.

All,
I spoke over the phone with a representative from Lares and they confirmed the initial answer was just a brain-fart. The boxes are cast aluminum.

Now I just need to find the best source. As Jeremiah notes, RockAuto is currently out of stock of the new box but does have stock for a reman unit. I intend to keep my original box though, so would need to eat the core charge.

From a ratio standpoint, 16:1 is too much for me. Although my motor has aluminum heads, intake, and it still takes some effort to turn the car around in my tight drive (side load garage). I have at times though about 20:1, but it is a big jump in cost and a bit of an unknown. 24:1 is familiar and the car is mostly a cruiser with occasional visit to the strip (ie no twisty stuff). Just getting the steering tighter than it has been will feel like a huge improvement!

TJP,

Thanks for the detailed steps. I had considered at one time trying to adjust the box in car, but from what I understood at the time was you had two adjustments to do (using rotational torque) and the adjustment on the top of the box (the easy one) was last in the process. Not sure where I read this....thought it was in my old Motor manual but I didn't find it at a quick glance. Anyway the first adjustment seemed darn difficult to do in vehicle and I didn't have the means to measure the low values of torque called for.

Your procedure is clearly simpler. And I am guessing you have used this with success??

At this time, the LCA and tie rods are off the vehicle. I could put the pitman back on temporarily but there is no way to check the end result from a driveability standpoint. I have had the car for about 22 years and it was much better long ago. The wheel goes smoothly lock-to-lock, so I don't think the top adjuster is too tight or adjusted while off center. Perhaps something has just worn more and now it was too loose?

I suppose I could put the new parts in, and hook up to the box after your procedure. But if the box needs to come out, then I have to separate everything again (and I know a pickle fork is not the best for re-using parts). Do you think the impact of your procedure would be evident by just observing the pitman arm behavior?

You can measure the rotational torque, or break-away torque, by measuring the diameter of the steering wheel, divide by 2. This gives you the distance from center to the grip of the wheel. Now, with the steering linkage disconnected, pack putty (Play-Do) onto the wheel at the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock position until the wheel turns and the putty drops to the 6 o'clock position. Remove the putty and weigh the putty with a simple kitchen scale.

Multiple the weight of the putty by the number of inches to the center of the wheel.

For example: It took 7 oz. of putty to turn the steering wheel. The putty was 8 inches from the center of the steering wheel. Now multiple 7x8=56. Now divide by 16. (16 oz. in a lb.) 56/16+3.5. It took 3.5 inch lbs of torque to turn the steering wheel.

You can start with the desired weight of putty applied and simply loosen the pitman adjuster until the wheel turns.

Do you know the specification for rotational torque on the box?

yes I have many times.

And to clarify, their are actually 2 adjustments. The first sets the preload with new or used bearings on the worm gear which is attached to the column shaft. There should be ZERO endplay and with new bearing a slight preload.
the second adjustment moves the sector (pitman gear) up or down depending on which way the adj. screw is turned.

The worm has a slight crown to it which highest point is at the center. This is why the adjustment must be done while the box is midway between stops and the pitman arm removed or linkage disconnected.
The rotational torque is nice when it's on the bench. When it's in the car, One can wiggle the steering shaft while feeling for movement on the pitman as you adjust preferably with a helper. you are going for minimal play with NO BINNDING as you pass the crown on the worm. NOTE: the further away from center on the worm the clearance increases.

Moparteacher,

That is a clever technique! The torque specs were in the procedure I had read; I thought it might be in my old Motor manual and I looked again and it is there! So the procedure has worm bearing adjustment first. The rotational torque is measured as the wheel moves away from full lock (1-4 in-lbs). The 3" lock nut needs to be broken loose with a drift and I can't imagine this would be easy in the car (after 50+ years!). Once that is set, then the pitman shaft adjustment is set at the center point. That rotational torque spec is 8-11 in-lbs.

I keep coming back to the fact that the box is 51 years old, the suspension is apart, and it just seems to be wise to swap the box for one that is claimed to be back to factory spec. Is there something in the box waiting to fail in another year or so? At the least it seems the box would need to come out and be torn down for a full inspection (versus pay for the convenience of a simple swap). But of course the quality of a vendors box is really important in the case of a swap, and why I was leaning towards the 'new' Lares box.

TJP,

OK, this makes good sense. I did find the procedure with the rotational torque that I had read before (as described in my response to Moparteacher). As mentioned, given the age of the box and that I have everything else apart, it seems diving into or swapping the box is the best path for the long term. Thanks for all of the input! I am definitely going to try to assess by hand how much play is in the box as it sits today.

here you go, 10% off this weekend, free shipping and if i remember correctly i didn't pay tax either...i got the 16:1, they should have the 24:1 ratio also...
https://p-s-t.com/

Firm feel used to sell a rebuild kit for those. Not much in those boxes. I’d adjust it before I went and bought anything. Also not hard to do.

And will add, over the years I've had to properly adjust more than one rebuilt / new manual box. No Kidding

This past weekend I pulled the steering box out of the car. There is no play in the worm shaft and only a small amount in the sector shaft. This is clearly not the source of the poor steering that I was experiencing. Now I have to decide whether to open the box and inspect inside of it. I'm not sure of exactly what to look for though. Obvious flaws in the gears are easy but what about the more subtle things?

How much play is expected with the mounting pivot on the lower control arms? My pivots had a fair amount; the bushings have now been replaced but there is still some definite play. Does the strut rod locate the LCA well enough that the pivot does not need to be tight? Obviously it needs to be able to freely rotate.

Did you verify that the worm and sector were centered with the wheels straight ahead before removing it. Remember the play increases between the two as you move away from lock to lock center.
Also keep in mind a little play out of the car, becomes A LOT when a 16" steering wheel is introduced

And no, the LCA pivots should not be moving side to side as you turn the wheels. There was a post on that recently and the repair method generally used. Maybe someone will point you to it. keep us posted

TJP,

The box play feels good when the sector shaft is centered. If I turned the wheel lock to lock, it was not perfectly even in both directions but it was pretty close. I sort of dismissed that since the problem has grown worse since the last alignment and the wheel centering should not have changed. Your point is well taken though. Is it possible that the box play has increased off-center over time? Does that imply the gears are wearing as some higher rate?

I am thinking I will take the cover off the box and look inside, but I am not sure what to look for outside of gross issues. How is the gear wear assessed?

Thanks

If you pull it apart you can look at the bottom race. I’ve had them be pitted before. That and the lower bearing rusty due to water settling down there.

The pivots have busted welds commonly.

on the welds. The pitting / bearing condition depends on a lot of variables. If your this far into it, take it the rest of the way apart and inspect them and the sector bushing.

Referring to your earlier post

You may have missed my response:

Quote

And no, the LCA pivots should not be moving side to side as you turn the wheels. There was a post on that recently and the repair method generally used. Maybe someone will point you to it

.

The Shafts are tapered and should "lock" into the K frame. It is the bushing that is supposed to twist as the suspension moves. The tightening of the shafts should not be done until the front suspension is fully loaded. Doing so before will induce rotational stress on the rubber bushing and lead to premature failure.
I'm suspecting your issue may be with the the shafts not locking in and inducing the play.

SomeCarGuy, TJP,

Thanks for the input on what to look for inside. My time to work on this project is pretty intermittent due to other commitments but at this point opening the box up seems right.

TJP,

On the LCA I am observing play in the pivot just holding it in my hand. Watched some utube stuff (from a member here...Jim???) about play. He addresses play due to the separation between the sides of the LCA; this is not the cause for what I am seeing. On my LCA the play comes from the hole in the side of the LCA in which the pivot sits. I am assuming some play is normal just based on the basic design of these parts but was wondering if there is a way to judge normal.

The pivot to frame mating was tight when I disassembled it so I am assuming it will be good when torqued down after the car is back on its wheels.












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If the suspension is freshly rebuilt, unloaded and things are not torqued, you may be chasing a ghost (your tail) as any play in the steering should be analyzed with the car as it will be when being driven