Windshield sealing*NEW question

I had a professional company, in business for 40 years and specializing in the older stuff come out and put new seal (I had new windshield on hand because old one was de-laminating) on my '79 Power Wagon. I had removed old one myself and thoroughly cleaned channel myself. There was ZERO rust and I cleaned it to like new. First rain came and it leaked like a sieve. Worse than the decades old one. HEAVY drips from top. VERY heavy around driver's corner (maybe just runs that way). Passenger side floor very wet too, and never got wet there.

They had run some urethane sealant, lock strip seemed to fit very well, and they seemed to know what they were doing. Any tricks I should know about for when they come out and re-do this?

Thanks.

so not sure about your truck, but I remember reading somewhere the newer glass was thinner and caused sealing issues because of it.
The rubber seals were set with the older glass in mind.

Um, didn't feel like it. I wasn't really looking for it either though. I'll look when we pull it out. Got the windshield from LMC.

Hello, we install glass and windshields on vintage mopars at my shop.
What happened probably is they tried to use urethane sealer with the windshield gasket and this WILL NOT WORK.
You are going to have to pull the glass back out and probably get another gasket. You will need to reinstall the glass with a new gasket and before the lock strip in put into place you need to seal the gasket to the glass and also seal the gasket to the body with Auto Bedding and Glazing Compound, 3M part number 08509. This is basically liquid butyl rubber and is designed to stay flexible. The urethane dries super hard and will not properly seal to this rubber gasket.
I see this on a regular basis with these glass install companies as they mainly work on late model cars and are pretty clueless on antiques.

Thank you for this info challengersteve! They did use urethane, I just don't remember in what spots.

Could you please tell me the exact order of the procedure, step by step?

This to body: Auto Bedding and Glazing Compound, 3M part number 08509. Install gasket, then put glass in, then Auto Bedding and Glazing Compound, 3M part number 08509 inside lock strip groove, and install lock strip? Is this correct order?




Thanks! Larry

Hello Larry, the way I do it is like this: clean all window channels of all old sealer, wiper channels down with oil and grease remover, install gasket and glass. Then once the glass is in, and before you install the lock strip, take your glazing compound put the tip of the applicator in the area between the gasket and the body and go around the perimeter. Once that is done do the same thing only this time between the gasket and glass outside.
Make sure you tape off everything and wear rubber gloves as this stuff is MESSY!!
Once the sealer is there you clean off the excess and install the lock strip and reveal mouldings.
Good luck and if you have any questions let me know.

how much sealer do you need?
1 tube enough or 2?

Thanks so much Steve! I really appreciate the info and picture. I want to have my truck ready for them (again). I had the glass channel all clean and free of all old sealant etc. the first time. I guess it's going to be much worse this time with the new sealant to remove! And removing a brand new windshield without breaking will be more nerve wracking than removing my old one in which I wasn't worried if I shattered (it didn't).

Thanks again!

Larry

usually one tube will be enough

thanks.

Steve,

Sorry to high jack this thread but years ago when i did a lot of the E-body style windows with the butyl tape. They used to sell and a pinch weld primer and a glass primer. It's not the same glass primer they sell now that is to repair the blackout along the edge of the window glass. They helped the bond between the butyl tape and the glass/paint.

Do you know of a 3M part number for them? Last time i looked for it I couldn't find anything like it, and neither could the guy at NAPA.

Thanks

Challenger Steve is right on the money, this is the 3m product that I use, for rubber seals as the OP asked .

https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pr...ound-black-08509/automotive-seam-sealers


For Urethane/ Butyl installs , you can use this primer which is supposed to be black in color.

https://www.amazon.com/3M-08682-Single-Step-Primer/dp/B00473W5V8

Great info and I really appreciate the part numbers with it. Now I have to figure out how to tell the glass company basically how to do it without hurting feelings. I cannot do it all by myself I need their help and tools so I will just nicely suggest or ask “how about…“. I believe it to be a good and reputable company but as someone already said they probably haven’t done enough of these despite being around for 40 years and advertising “specializing” in vintage cars. I’m going to try to do all the prep myself to save them the labor.

I just called back to schedule an appointment to have them try again. I asked if I “might suggest a couple of products to their experts”. I sort of got double talked the lady that answered phone. She said they have butyl and primer from Dow they use. Sort of blew me off but we’ll see when they show up. I plan on having the stuff on hand when they show up. It’s not that expensive so I’d rather just have it here. They have one of those electric caulk guns? Is that what they’re called? Do they use the regular tubes or a special tube?

Also, best way to remove windshield installed two weeks ago? Razor around the outside I guess and gently push from inside? Here’s a pic of upper right corner.

Upper left also pic got turned to left

Luckily weather has been dry for several days so truck has been parked outside under oak tree drying out. In shade but birds pooping all over it.

Thank you, challengersteve. One reason Moparts is a great place.

Definitely! Huge help. When glass company comes back I'm going to be super informed customer!

I began pulling out the brand new seal yesterday. It's actually coming out easier than I expected. First I just pulled out the lock strip, which came out very easily and in one or two pieces. Then I took a razor blade and cut all along the glass at an angle and pushing down hard, and was able to pull away the strip that was against the glass. The portion against the body then pulled up fairly easily, leaving behind some sealant that's still pliable and I could kind of roll it up into a ball with my fingers. It's been a few weeks so I was surprised it would still roll up like that.

Anyway, I started to wonder this; The channel for the glass on the body of my truck looks the same (basically) as the channel on my '89 Diplomat that takes no rubber seal. It just uses sealant, and the glass goes right to the sealant and dries, then molding covers that. Can I just skip the gasket/seal on the truck, and do just like the cars with no gasket seal? Granted, might look a little weird without molding covering, but I could come up with something to cover it, and maybe this would be much simpler and better?

Most glass designed to be used with a rubber gasket are smaller then the opening in the sheet metal pinch weld, or the same size as the opening, to allow the gasket to fit.
The glass that is bonded to the sheet metal overlaps the sheet metal by about a 1/2" all the way around.

I've done several older vehicles that I've had the glass installed bonded (with urethane) against the pinch welds, in every case, the glass had to be cut larger then if it was installed on the rubber gasket. That requires a template to be made for the glass company to cut the glass correctly, then its cut to your template and is your problem if its wrong.

Sealing the glass with the rubber gaskets is a pain in the butt, you need to seal to both sides of the metal and both sides of the glass. I can count on one hand how many pieces of glass I have had sealed the first time with a rubber gasket, I expect to have to have it done twice before its sealed. On the other hand, the bonded glass so far has been 100% sealed the first time.

The problem is, curved glass pretty much needs to be set the same way it was originally designed, its pretty hard to get curved glass cut oversized. The only option to bond in a curved glass that was designed and cut to be set with a gasket is to weld an extension to the pinch weld, and that is not an easy task either. Gene

poorboy, challengersteve has been kind enough to give me a lot of info and like you say, no-go on skipping the gasket. I'm going to use the 3M products he suggested, and hopefully get the glass company guys (I need their assistance) to take their time the second time around, and get it right the 2nd time around. As I did the first time, I'll have the glass out and the channel clean and ready for the install. Even though this is warranty work this time, they won't have to spend time removing the glass and cleaning the old urethane out. I've already done this part, and it was no fun.

Here is a picture of the gap between the windshield and the body of my truck after I remove the brand new gasket that was installed. Seems like it’s quite a gap for that gasket to fill but I am not familiar with what is normal. I wish I had paid more attention to the original windshield and gasket when I remove them for the new install. Although the original gasket was pretty much dried out and destroyed so I don’t know if it would have been much help. I am about done removing the sealant remnants and to call glass company for attempt #2.

I made red lines where glass lip is and where metal body lip is. Pretty large space for window gasket to fill. Hope that's normal.

Pretty normal! As the glass is installed, it has to move (shift side to side and top to bottom) for the rubber to fit over the pinch weld and over the glass. If you watch the process, they basically put the rubber on the metal then pull the rubber through the gap and onto the glass.

Two guys were installing my glass together, one inside and one outside of the truck. When the guys installed the corner windows on my 49 Dodge truck, it was a real battle to get the rubber to move around the corner. The two corner windows took nearly 4 hours to install. The guys installed the 2 piece windshield, the two corner windows, and the center back glass, took about 6 hours, over 2 days. I supplied the glass and the rubber, they charged me $500 (on a $400 guestimate) for the install, I gave each of them an extra $20. Those corner windows were a [censored].

One thing to note, was when the guys installed my center rear glass, they took a few extra minutes to be sure the glass was centered in the rubber after the glass was in place. The guys that did mine did not use any sealer, they used the foaming glass cleaner on both the glass and the metal when they were installing the glass, then they used the foaming glass cleaner to be sure the window was centered in the opening. The truck hasn't been out in the rain yet (too much uncovered bare metal), but it looks really good, I'm not expecting any issues. Gene

Thanks Gene. That’s the impression I got from ChallengerSteve who is also very knowledgeable. But when I saw that gap I was a little worried but I’m glad you two have dispelled my worries. I have a feeling the gasket itself may not have been a very quality one because with a couple of tools and some foaming glass cleaner they had it in in under an hour and the impression I had is you really have to work those things in. Keeping my fingers crossed for the second try and I have the 3M products challengerSteve suggested. Thanks again for the info. And to think I was asking about installing the glass without any gasket before I saw this huge gap! Yikes. Larry.

The guys that installed my center rear window had it in and centered in about 20 minutes! It took them about 15 minutes longer to install the two piece windshield and get it centered. They did lock on a pair of suction grips and pull the glass around to get it centered though.

Out of curiosity - how long did the factory need to install the windshield and did they use some special equipment?

Update: I FINALLY found the time to remove the newly installed windshield and clean every bit of urethane out of channel and off windshield. It's all super clean now and I have appointment for tomorrow with glass company....attempt number two so I'm re-reading this. I have the primer and other 3m product and just realized the primer might have been only for butyl tape which is fine if so it was inexpensive. Just want to know for tomorrow.

Gene, I'm not sure what you mean by sealing "both sides of the metal". I see what you mean though by size of the glass. My glass is so much smaller than the opening. Seems if it were larger glass it would push in and seal better with more force into the gasket.

Larry, The gasket that fits over the top of the pinch weld is split. Once the gasket is placed onto the pinch weld, part of the gasket is on both sides of the pinch weld. (like its on both sides of the glass). Often glass companies will only put sealer on the outer side of the pinch weld (if they put any sealer on it at all) but don't put anything on the inside of the steel. The problem with that is, any gap in the seal to the metal on the outside, or any defect in the metal, or any defect in the seal itself will allow water to well up and seep between the inside of the pinch weld's steel and the rubber gasket. That water build up eventually runs out between the rubber on the inside and the metal under the rubber gasket. You usually see the effects of this on the bottom corners of the windows, but the water intrusion can come from any place around the metal.

The typical cause of the water leak between the gasket and the interior metal is often places where the rubber gasket doesn't lay perfectly flat against the outer body at the corners.

The rear window on my coupe has a pretty tight corner at the top edges. The corner is so sharp, the the rubber puckers away from the car body on those two top corners. Those two areas have been bonded down a couple times by the glass guy with urethane and now lay pretty flat. The problem is, in heavy rain, water still pools at those two corners, and ends up running out between the rubber gasket and the inner steel at the bottom two corners. The last time, I made the guy put sealer on the inside of the gasket, all the way around. The water leak has stopped, even though I can still see water that pools at those two top corners.

Seal both sides of the glass at the pinch welds. It may make it harder if the glass ever has to be replaced again, but the current glass is now sealed. Gene

Got it Gene thanks 👍 so about a month ago when I called and very politely told them that it was leaking extremely badly and not just a little bit that could be filled with more sealant they were polite and said they would redo it and I told him I would pay for the new gasket because I don’t want to be unreasonable and I know it’s an old truck. I told him I would call after I removed the windshield again and cleaned everything very thoroughly. I don’t expect them to do the grunt work just the skilled work. They said they could get the new gasket no problem and would have it on hand. A week ago I called and said I finally have everything ready windshield out everything clean and ready for new install and reminded the person they were to have the new gasket and the lock strip that I would pay for. No problem and we set up appointment for today. One guy shows up early 20s not a lot of experience and is surprised to see the glass out in the gasket out as well and knows nothing about a new install thinks he’s here to squirt a little more sealant to stop a leak and be gone. Then he called shop and they say poops no we can’t get the gasket customer needs to order a new one. What has happened to businesses?! Thanks to everyone for all the answers so that I am not completely ignorant as I was when I started into this.

Well, I am just going to say unless you find a shop that does old cars all the time you can do a better job on your own with a helper. I have had restoration shop's and glass shop's argue with me on how to put the windshield in properly while they are looking right at the service manual. Yep a dipshit shop owner shows up with urethane and knows more than the factory engineers.....90% of shop's and glass guys believe the gasket does all the work, any sealer you see was added later, and will [censored] it up deliberate if you point it out to them. The primer is for tape/urethane installs only. I pulled my car out of a complete restoration because of a dumbfuck owner like that and will do it myself. Dadsbee gave you nice install tips, find a friend, do it yourself, and it will be better than they could ever do. Remember this, you are better than any shop is because you have the ability to ask questions and learn, most shop's lost the ability to learn long ago. You can do it and do it right.

The so-called glass shops around here (and there are not many) won't even work on gasketed/butyl sealed windshields! It's too old for them, glued-in with urethane sealer is all they know

So I do it myself (rope technique). It's not that hard, just tends to be messy. That butyl rubber sticks to EVERYTHING and makes long strings, too.

Before this all started I had asked my brother to help me do it myself but was told best "leave it to the professionals". I'm going to give them one more try since it will be a freebie and they seem open to my somewhat now educated suggestions.

I know that NOBODY will put more into a job than ME on MY cars. I've little faith anymore in work ethic. I have a few that I can count on in a couple of industries and that's it. The glass company I picked has been around a very long time and good reputation and know for working on vintage cars. But I guess with attrition the employees have probably done very few of this type. I'm watching lots of videos and reading your alls advice and printing it out. It may just come down to me and my brother.

I've ordered a Steele gasket and lock strip. The last one was from LMC and I don't remember the brand now.

Here's link for glass company https://colemanglass.com/classic-car-glass.html

I think the one LMC sells is the one Precision sells. Wondering if the Steele is that much different or better?

Precision IS the brand I got last time from LMC. Glass shop recommended Steele this time since they told me to source it because their supplier doesn't carry. The Precision one sure felt nice; heavy and thick with a good deep opening for lock strip to fully seat. I've heard some don't have a good deep opening for lock strip so it'll try to pop out. I haven't pulled the Steele one out of bag yet to fully check it out.

Glass company came cack today and spent about 90 minutes on attempt two. They had liquid butyl but not 3M so I handed him my tube and said please use this he happily agreed I also gave him the 3M primer which he happily agreed to give it a try so glasses in and I’m crossing my fingers if it’s a sieve like the last one I’m not calling them back. Steele rubber products gasket and lock strip this time. Need to replace wiper linkage grommets now since I have the cow cover off they are falling off and clean up that area and paint. Don’t know why my pictures get turned upside down sometimes.

From LMC which is pretty much what you all advised minus the primer:

https://blog.steelerubber.com/the-s...mpaign=july%20auto%20retail%20newsletter

So it's been raining here lately, does it leak?

Haha still haven't taken it out in the rain. I'm used to keeping it dry if possible and I know if it leaks I'm going to have to fix it myself so I'm in no rush. But I will let it get wet soon.