Water Wetter opinions ?????

My new toy went out last night for the 1st cruise under my ownership.
1966 Satellite hemi auto 3.54 dana

And I feel the car runs a little warmer than I would prefer. right at half way up the stock gauge on the interstate. But once in stop and go traffic it warmed up a little more then I would prefer,. it,,went nearly to the top of the gauge. and spit out some coolant once parked .
The ride back home on the interstate it remained in the center of the gauge the entire drive. That I think I can live with .

I have to find out what thermostat is in it .
Car is a street hemi, auto, approx. a 18" fixed blade fan , stock radiator and shroud. the OE rad had a new 3 row core done when the car was done. But has only had maybe 1000 miles on it in 15 plus years.
I don't know yet if the block is bored or not. SO I need to do some digging. before getting to radical.
BUT, ,,,,,

My questions is, has anyone used the stuff called water wetter , results good or bad .
If I can cool it off maybe 20 degrees I would feel much better . The weather last nite was nice upper 80s for the drive up and maybe lower 80s for the drive home

Howard Stewart, the founder of Stewart Components,

https://www.stewartcomponents.com/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=11

was a top Nascar cooling guru,
and used to run a question and answer internet board before he retired.
Stewart used to say water wetter showed minimal gains and that it was better to use pure water at a higher pressure.

Since those days in the 1990s NASCAR has gone to even higher pressures

https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-reason-why-nascar-engines-run-so-hot-1835071544

Before I went to Evans NPG waterless coolant in 1998
I tried water wetter in 50/50 coolant and saw about a 4 degree drop in part throttle driving with a 205 thermostat in a Magnum 5.9 V8.

I used it in the past with my 440-6 when it had a aggressive solid cam, 2” hooker super comp headers, 915 heads, switching between 160 and 180 t stat and mechanical carbs, 3500 TC. to be honest Bill, I don’t think it made a difference. When moving temp would be around 185-190, when at a light 200 and a little higher(on a mechanical gauge). I think that was due to the sum of the parts. Now after rebuilding/restoring, 9.5 compression, stock converter, stock carbs, exhaust manifolds, 180 stat, 906 heads, on the rally cluster temp gauge on a hot day it hangs right at the little line at the edge of the C range, barely breaks a sweat...I sometimes wonder if it’s running too cool. I don’t think the WW did anything personally.

Is the fixed fan 4 blade?, 5 blade? 7 blade?....if it's a 4 I'd switch to a 5 minimum or 7 FIXED, no clutch...

The blade should reside at least 50 to 75% inside the shroud for maximum pull

No mention if you've flushed the coolant and replaced?...personally I prefer Zerex G-05 with Redline water wetter, I've found the Redline WW good for up to 10 degrees less in my wingcar which runs "very warm" engine wise and underhood temp wise due to the nosecone's small opening... the Zerex is slightly clear in color and doesn't stain like the standard green juice, and Zerex is an IAT not an OAT (orange death Dexcool) coolant, Zerex is about all I run in the DD and toys, if your going to run Zerex, flush the system completely/thoroughly ....

Mike

Mike its an 8 blade fan. No clutch.
The center of the blades are right at the edge of the shroud. So i think im good there

Ive not opened it ip just yet. So don't know what tstat is in it yet.

I am thinking changing the thermostat ....simply because is old qnd unknown temps
. If i do..i will change stat and flush the system and upgrade coolant.at same time.

I am preparied to park to car during the high temp summer months. Southern Arizona you know
But ambient temps are nice right know.

What pulleys are on it? Moving water through the system too fast may not allow enough transfer time. Radiator cap pressure rating and is it good? Higher pressure increases the boiling point.

Stock diam pulleys. It has a fluid dampner on it but lower pulley appears about same diam of an orignal hemi lower.
Rad cap is new nodern mopar cap.

I plan to drive it later today...westher permitting. And will pick up new coolant and thermostat while we are out.

Some of the dash lights are out as well...... So will be working on it all weekend .
I want to add some kind of coolant overflow tank as well.

My experience is that water wetter had no effect on my hot running 71 Charger/440/22-inch radiator. In my case, an aluminum radiator was the answer.

Greg

WW has worked for me, seems good for a few degrees of temp.
Reducing the amount of coolant/antifreeze from 50% to about 25-30% and a cooler thermostat brought my 454 Dually from 200-205 to 180.
That also made it take longer to warm up, but I can live with that.
On your car, I'd want to run a mech gauge for a test rather than assume the factory gauge is accurate.
More info needed as already asked, but fan/pump speed (smaller pulley) is another solution.
My 438" Street Hemi (+.055 bore) - pretty big cam, 4.10s 4-speed - never saw over 180 no matter what. Added row in radiator, otherwise OEM cooling.

If it cools fine on the freeway but not at low speed then it is probably an airflow issue. Might need a fan with more blades or perhaps the position of the fan inside the shroud needs to be fixed. Also a good idea to verify that the radiator is in good shape. If the car has been sitting a lot then the radiator core could have some plugged up passages. Cars that sit a lot develop lots of little problems like that.

SNAKE OIL IMO.
Your gauge readings may or may not be accurate. My suggested approach to temperature related issues.

Step # 1 buy a thermocouple and digital meter. Make sure to get a T/C that matches the meter as there are different types that will skew your readings. The most common are type K or J. Many of the newer DVM's (digital volt meter) have a plug in for T/C's> they can be had relatively inexpensively as can the T/C probes

Step #2 Buy a T/C probe with an .125 OD SS sheath ( enclosure) around it. Buy an extension lead that is long enough to put the meter in the car.

Step #3 Install the TC probe as close as possible to the thermostat.

Step 4# Put the meter in the car. Take passenger along to record the ACTUAL temperatures under various conditions. You may be surprised to see the things that affect the temps such as a semi in front of you, climbing a slight grade etc. Example: with a borderline radiator, Going north on I-29 has a tendency to slowly raise temps, turning around and going south lowers them. This typically indicates an undersized, partially blocked, or inefficient radiator core. Sometimes turning the heater on will help as it adds a small amount of cooling to the system.

The above efforts will confirm or invalidate your suspected problem and tell you exactly what the temps are and when.
Once you have that information , you will then know how to approach resolving the issue if there is one

I’ve found it good for a few degrees.
For $10 it won’t hurt and worth a try.

Whats the initial timing ?

Will ck timing later.this afternoon

Water Wetter is a good product but it isn't going to solve your problem. Water Wetter isn't a problem solver, it is just a good idea that helps the coolant work a little better. I run 100% water in my Duster with a bottle of water wetter and the car runs cool but it isn't because of the Water Wetter, it is because is has a good radiator and a shroud and a big fan and the correct pulley ratio and all that other stuff.

I thought it made the water less viscous, which would be a good thing... no?

I used a bottle of in it my race cars. I mainly use it since I have to run straight water and it helps keeps the waterpump lube. I think it might've made a 5-10 degree change at the most at the track, but I have no street experience with it.

I use Waterwetter in my 451 ci 11.1 c.r. with 22 inches rad with shrould , never had overheating problems...
The trick is more use of watter = less heat in the engine.
antifreeze is not the best to cool engine.
during summer you don't need antifreze...

The trick is more use of watter = less heat in the engine
And a bottle of rubbing alcohol.

Rubbing alcohol ????






Thanks so far.

What I know of the power train so far is its
426 Hemi compression is in the 11-11.5 range . Steel block and heads , stock exhaust , stock dual point dist. ( dont know base or advanced specs timing yet ) Stock water pump and hsg ( know idea of impeller blade count )
Pulleys are stock Mopar stuff and diam is I believe pretty close to OE
Trans is also stock with a mild street build with approx a 3000 / 3500 stall conv . it has the stock console mounted tach but I seriously doubt its accurate based on driving it so far



Its my understanding the purpose of WW or any wetting agent is to take the surface tension off of the water. ( think eliminating the bubbles in a pot of water on the stove ) Thus allowing the water to cover more of the surface area inside the cooling passages.

I have no problem running straight water as long as said WW agent helps control rust from forming inside the engine and allows some kind of lube for the water pump even if its minimal

Temps out here RARELY get below freezing . At most maybe a few times a year . IF they do the car will be in the garage anyway so its not a problem .
During summer months when its 100 Plus the car will hibernate . Black car, no A/C and temps of 110 ( or more ) is not a good mix .



I plan to reach out to the guy who built the engine one day next week sometime and see if he remembers details of the build. standard bore or not , type of water pump , thermostat temp range , etc etc .

When I shut it off last nite , it spit a little coolant out the overflow and was gurgling slightly. It wasn't scorching hot per say ,,,,,,but it was warmer than I would really prefer .

Do I understand that you are making decisions based on the stock gauge with an unknown source sender? May I suggest that you not do anything until you actually know what temps you are working with?

As to the belching of coolant when shut off, big blocks (and Hemis) have always heat soaked. Either put an overflow bottle on it or leave the coolant down an inch or so in the radiator. In my humble opinion, that is not indicative of anything other than it's a big block Mopar.

At any rate, if you want to throw $10 or so at the Water Wetter, go ahead. But that in not gonna fix any real problems.

Get an accurate temp gauge and sender to determine if you actually have a problem and when. Then, remember this good rule of thumb; over temp at hiway speed is typically a water flow problem while over temp at slow road speed is typically an air flow problem. It is also a good idea to look at the water pump housing bypass hole and size it down if excessive. It allows hot engine water right back into the incoming cool water.

Yes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and NO

its based partly on 25 plus years as a service tech. The car was warmer than normal 180- 200 degree range, Im sure of that. At normal temps I can hold the upper rad hose , last nite I couldnt for more than a few seconds at most . At normal temps the system does not gurgle/ feel likes its boiling inside the hose
So Actual live temps I dont know. Just yet. I will pick up a laser temp gun on monday to ck temps at various locations underhood

The car has sat for the most part the past 15 plus year or more. Its had less than 1000 miles put on it since completed in 2004 . So I will drain/flush coolant , ck / replace the thermostat and refill with with distilled water with maybe a little bit of coolant for WP lubricity if nothing else
the temp sender was nos mopar when installed, the gauge is the original I believe. The radiator was re-cored with a new 3 row core at the same time. So I have serious doubts its a problem, BUT I plan to ck it anyway

You might find that higher stall converter is putting more heat into the system if you are using the in the radiator cooler.

Generally speaking, cooling issues at low road speeds are airflow related. At higher road speeds it's usually water flow related.

But more heat into the system menas you have to be able to remove it as well. If you don;t have an aux trans cooler you might think about that.

The car does have the hemi aux trans cooler on it .

Anti Freeze is what it's called. It prevents freezing and also has anti rust and lubricant in it.

You'll find lots of car guys were you live now just run distilled water and an additive or even old water pump lubricant. It's not because they are too cheap to by Anti Freeze. Water cools better than Anti-Freeze.





Here in So Cal, I run Justice Brothers Super Radiator Cooler and Reverse Osmosis (RO) water in my Barracuda for the last 9 years. I also put in Justice Brothers Cooling System Protectant for added anti rust and electrolysis protection.


Very complete test of coolant additives:
http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0703_turp_cooling_system_additives/viewall.html

"Justice Brothers' Radiator Cooler gave us the lowest temperature during our testing - 177 F - and provided the lowest average temperatures overall when mixed with water alone."




A good radiator additive does a lot more than just acting as a wetting agent. It should also provide anti-corrosion, anti-cavitation, electrolysis resistance, anti acid, lubrication, SCA's (Supplemental Coolant Additives), added thermal conduction... They should remove heat better than antifreeze. Boiling in a pressurized system of water alone is 257 degrees.

The object is to remove heat before going into a boiling situation.



Here's pictures of the inside of my Radiator from 2016, 5 years after it was installed. Just before a drain and fill.

Same here on my 340 Dart.

Thanks all,
But an aluminum radiator is 100% out of the question on this car .

I have some ideas and things to try , weather permitting will get something done tomorrow

Report back what you find.

Being the car it is, they're typically not driven 2-3 times a week. And if came from the snow belt, it was parked all winter.

Could have sediment and gunk in it. Might want to try and good old fashioned power flush. If you already haven't.

Gurgling, huh ?
Take a look at the seal on your radiator cap.
Grab a new radiator cap, swap & test.

Right now, I think thats my starting plan of attack . Open it up, drain and flush the system completely , including pulling the drains in the side of the block, ck t-stat operation / might go ahead and install a new one , then refill with mostly water.. I ckd earlier and I think the fan diameter could be a little bigger . As it has approx 1.5" clearance between the fan blades on each side and the edge of the shroud. So if my changes do nothing I make look for a larger diam fixed blade fan as a next step ( my current fan is a 7 blade fixed fan btw )

EDIT, just measured------. fan shroud opening is a click over 20" , fan blade is a click over 17" . measuring side to side

Installing a coolant overflow bottle is a good idea,

A tighter fit between fan tip and shroud will nearly always improve low speed cooling,
but under hard acceleration the engine’s torque will cause a twist off centerline.
You might white paint just the tip of the longest fan blade
and then attach two pieces of something soft like weatherstrip on the left and right sides of the shroud
and watch for “witness marks” of white paint on these weatherstrips to tell you the maximum fan diameter.

Mercedes OEM radiator caps are usually higher psi ratings.

Could the car’s heater core be quite old and unable to withstand more than 16 psi?

Im reasonably sure the heater core is original, raising pressure is IMO a gamble, One Im not sure Im willing to take . At least not until all else has been exhausted

But, yes some kind of overflow bottle is most definitely in its future . Did some online reviews last nite and it seems this stuff called purple ice is a better option


here is where I think I will try 1st.

Drain and flush the entire system, refill with distilled water .Will ck thermostat operation and temp rating ( potentially replace it it nothing else but to change temp ,,,1st up switch to maybe a 180 ) and add a bottle of this Ice stuff .

Ck for cold spots in the rad with a temp gun at same time . Then see if or where i need to go from there .

Anyone know if a slightly larger diam fan blade is avail for a non fan clutch mounting ?


EDIT,
From reading reviews the overwhelming comment Ive found so far for ANY of these wetter additives is they seem to have a very minimal effect if any to a mixture with coolant. But seem to help anywhere from 5 to sometimes 20 degrees drop if using straight distilled water

I always try the simple things.

1) Fan belt tight?
2) Air side of the radiator clean?
3) Lower radiator hose firm?
4) Thermostat functional?

Then you can get to the more drastic measures like pulling the radiator and internally cleaning it. Face it, if this is a stock engine, Chrysler built thousands of them without heating problems.

I use water wetter in my race car but as much for the corrosion protection as anything else.

Agreed,
My primary question was if the water wetter additive even worth the effort at all. And from my digging around , its worth a try. Provided I use water only. Im in Southern AZ so freezing temps will never be an issue
I plan to pull the Tstat later today and see what it has installed . then decide to stove top hot water ck it or just replace it . I have a temp gun and once its flushed and refilled will ck for cool spots in the radiator

Like I said, the car never overheated persay. Just a tad warmer than I would prefer it be . I will ck engine temps with the gun to see at what temps the gauge is operating at in various postions. And will ck ignition timing while I have the hood up.
I do plan to ck and see about putting a spring in the lower hose while its drained / opened up if I can find one today.

I talked to the previous owner last nite and he couldn't remember if its standard bore or not. I do know it had 12.5 -1 pistons but they were cut down and he feels its probably still in the 11- 11.5 range . THAT might something I have to deal with at a later date . Primarily because pump gas friendly it is not

I've had a couple of thermostats lately that passed the hot water test but failed to work properly in the car. Both times I had to scratch my head for a while to figure it out. My Duster ran cool but took a long time to heat up. The thermostat worked properly when dunked in hot water but when I ran the engine with the radiator cap off I could see water flowing even when the engine was dead cold. I had kind of the opposite issue on another car where it was hot but thermostat checked out. Evidently in practice it just wasn't opening nearly enough for some reason. One thing I discovered is that there are a lot of super cheap Chinese garbage thermostats on the market these days. Evidently the Chinese can't read blueprints and don't understand QC. My advice is buy high quality and then double check operation in the car.

195 degree OEM 1995 Magnum 5.9 V8 thermostat failed after 5 years in 50/50 Ethylene Glycol mix coolant when the brass arm cracked which cocked the valve partially open.

180 degree “Balanced Flow” Robertshaw thermostat failed in the closed position about a year after I began using Evans NPG coolant.

205 degree Stant “Standard Grade” thermostat failed in the closed position after 9 years in NPG coolant.

I would think thermostat design would have advanced to where they last 20+ years when coolant is changed on schedule.

Evans NPG coolant is supposed to be “Totally Non-corrosive” to iron, aluminum or brass compared to water, EG or PG coolants.
But I have wondered whether it could chemically react with the wax in the thermostat.

Thermostats in general have been going to $hit the last few years. Most are a real crap shoot as to whether they will last past getting wet the first time. I had used the Mr Gasket high flow thermostats for years, they clearly flowed more. But the last few I have installed have been junk.

I now use the Stant Superstats. The opening is on the small size in my opinion so I add some holes to them to help with flow, but I haven't had any real problems with them............so far.

I too use Stant Superstats and drill four 1/8 holes to aid in flow.

If it were mine and the tubes in the radiator showed any gunk I'd take it to a good shop and have it rodded out.

When I was having overheating issues years ago with my Dart I tried water wetter and purple ice. They made zero difference. It was running a new replacement 24" radiator, 160° thermostat, black magic electric fan and a belt driven water pump. I replaced the copper with a 24" cross flow aluminum radiator and had to buy another fan because there wasn't enough room for the one I had, it still ran hot so I put a new Flow Kooler water pump on, no help. I was about to pull the motor when someone here suggest that I try a MP viscous fan. A friend of mine had a nearly new kit so I bought it, then cut and sectioned a 26" shroud to fit the 22" aluminum radiator. All my over heating issues went away, I'm satisfied that if I had done this in the beginning there would've never been issues. I still run this set up on my 434" small block and on the hottest days I've never seen it over 185°, even at the drag strip.

I'm completely in agreement with Mike! I used the Zerex G-05 with WW in my 68 R/T that was a hot runner from the day I started it. I can recall one of the previous owneres talking about how hot it ran. It definitely had positive results. easy first step Bill!
Good Luck!!

IMHO...
I don't like using any additive...
Putting them into the cooling system in our old engine blocks sometimes depending upon certain chemicals
can loosen up some crud which can block the radiator runners..
Cooling our older built Mopar engines is not rocket science simply takes understanding the basics about radiators, thermostadts, fans, shrouds and engine specs like jetting and timing.

Just my $0.02...

I've seen a bunch of stock Mopar water temp. gauges read wrong, same thing on Autometer mechanical race gauges
Some will read high and some will read low, check yours with known good heating and air conditioning pocket dial gauge or a good hand held Infra red temperature gun before making any other decisions on this
One of my old race car had one of the expensive Auto Meter large face 320 degree reading race mechanical water temp gauges in it that would read 140 F when the water circulating in the radiator was cool enough for me to stick a finger in it and not fell any warmth
I can not let 140F water touch me without getting away from it 120F is hot to me, not warm

Wife and I took it out for a drive last nite, without doing anything to it before hand except ck coolant level, And it was approx 1" above the coolant tubes,,,, So we took off. As I wanted to try again before doing anything to it

Drive into town , Non expressway but still run approx 50 mph for almost 12-13 miles. Per the gauge car never got to half way up the gauge, Just barely under that.
Made a couple stops with maybe lasting 10-15 minutes heat soaks. Fired right back up , Gauge was nearly 3/4 the way up but cooled right back down the below half. Did this 3 times with same results.

On the way home right away it crept back up to 3/4 way up the gauge and stayed there all the way home ( again a little over 12 miles ,,,give or take )

Once home took temp gun and said temp right at thermostat hsg was about 215 or so with gauge still showing right about 3/4 ,,,maybe just under that.
Inside the rad top is spotless so I have my doubts its a radiator issue. It was recored the time the car was done.,,,,, And driven very little

So, with that ,,,, Something tells me I have a Tstat acting up

I live in an area where antifreeze is really not needed. SO,,,,,,,I am going to drain, flush it even remove the block drain plugs as well and refill with distilled water , Refill with an additive thrown in for good measure replace the thermostat with a new one. and go from there .

Sounds like a plan

You need some sort of rust preventive and lubricants.

I picked up these 2 on my drive sunday.
Im leaning towards the Rislone brand .


The reviews were better for both these compared to water wetter that Ive read so far

That should work for you. Distilled water and one of those bottles and see how it works. Be interesting to see what you find when you pull the thermostat. Did you check to see if your thermostat seems to be working properly now? Top hose should be cool until the thermostat opens and there shouldn't be flow in the radiator. So fairly easy test to run.

No signs of coolant flow looking in the top of the radiator on a cold start .
Ive ordered a couple different thermostats to test out, in both temp ranges and style .

While waiting for the thermostats to arrive, maybe remove the stock temperature sensor and submerge it in boiling water with its wiring still connected in order to see where 211 degrees is on the needle of the original dash gauge?

That is a good test but a little hard to rig up. Need a little hot plate or camp stove out in the shop. Then place the sending unit and thermostat in the pan of hot water and double check thermostat operation as well as calibration of the sending unit and gauge.

thanks,
i will have to try this

also, to make this a lot easier to do, i make up a jumper wire a gauge or two larger than the sending unit wire, then make the jumper wire long enough to place the heating element of choice on a table along side of your fender.
it sure makes it easier than trying to rig up something in the engine compartment.

Once everything gets here I will do the sender test .
I have a spring coming to put inside the lower hose , just for good measure while its apart

Until then I will keep the car driveable. Will be taking it out this evening actually to a local cruise

I did measure the pulleys and
the water pump pulley is 6-3/4" diam
the crank pulley is 5-3/4" diam

I would bet that spring helps you fix this Bill.
Ron

Thanks Ron,

I'm trying to cover ALL the bases / ideas at one time. So odds are I may never know EXACTLY what fixes it. I just want to cool it off a little bit and not have to worry about it .
I plan to drive this car A LOT ,,,,unless of course its 110 degrees out. Then it will hibernate. LOL

If you could overdrive the water pump rather than underdrive it then you'll be better off for the way you drive the car. Hemi engines were set up for high rpm but if the car isn't going to be raced then overdriving the water pump is a good idea.

I'll see what happens to it after my changes .
If it still runs warm will look at changing pulleys , or maybe go to a higher flow pump

Its more about the fan RPM at low speeds than water flow.

Can also check the new and old thermostats this way

I put my new stat in pot of water with baking thermometer and checked the real temp it opened then I installed it in the engine and left radiator cap off. Warmed up engine and watched radiator and when thermostat opened checked gauge and knew what the real temp was and where it read on the gauge.

where did it read on both ?

If you can believe it the 180 stat opened right at 180 on the stove and read just barely over half way between the H & C on my E body gauge.

Update time

Drained all the coolant, including the block drains , flushed it good with garden hose both running and not. Was super clean with no signs of crud ever
Installed a Stant super stat 180 temp thermostat in it ( it had a 160 in it I removed )
Refilled with distilled water and a bottle of Rislone cooling system additive,
Put a spring inside the lower hose

With a thermometer in the top of the radiator it shows approx 195 - 200 with the gauge showing slightly over half way.

For the most part it changed nothing other than it warms up quicker

I can hold my hand in front of the radiator and I feel it should be pulling more air thru it. I have no problem changing to a smaller diam upper pulley but at $150 or up . I would be pissed it it changes nothing.

I have heard good reviews of the milodon high flow water pump . There is room for a larger diam fan blade but finding one thats direct drive is not easy. and wonder about blade pitch if it would help or not

Thoughts

PS, with the temp gauge showing a little over half, I quickly pulled the sender and stuck said thermometer in there and it showed about 210 . So its not far off what the top of the rad shows

I used a smaller pulley from a Poly 318 to speed up the pump & pan on a later RB; same bolt pattern, depth is the trick.
Blade pitch matters on aircraft prop engines & watercraft, not sure what options exist for cooling fans.

Radiator fins aren't plugged with paint/dirt/whatever, are they ?

Flex a lite has a 6 blade 19", also a 18" 7 blade HD fan, summit race & 4818 Flexalite worked great on my 512 ac street car, I now have dual electric,
Flex-a-lite 101571 - Flex-A-Lite 7-Blade Fans

Fan, Flex-Type, 7-Blade, Clockwise, 18.25 in. Diameter, Stainless Steel Blades/Steel Hub, Universal, Each

Part Number: FLX-4818 it moves a lot of air, That said I run the smaller water pump pulley, my car has ac

If you buy a new water pump get an Edelbrock. They have long curved blades that have a lot more surface area than the stock types. They have very little dead space, and move a lot more fluid per each revolution.

I have not seen a BB mopar Milodon water pump, but the SB ones are close to the oem design. I would not expect them to do a ton better.

Since you went from 50/50 coolant mix to nearly straight water with chemical wetter,
that has an effect like having a 30% gpm pump boost,
due to the greater thermal capacity of straight water.

To me that indicates the system is “airflow limited” not liquid & pump side limited.

I would now boost airflow somehow to further test.

Start by blowing more air on the parked stationary vehicle with a large electric floor fan or leaf blower.

If this added boost of airflow lowers the liquid temperature down to the 180 degree setting of the thermostat,
then try a larger diameter fan, or a same diameter fan with more blades and/or pitch.

My thoughts as well.

The thing is it runs about same place on the gauge driving down the road at 55 mph


I cant get the idea out of my head that the fan blade is to small for the shroud opening. and/or not enough blade pitch The cars Ive had in the past you could really feel suction in front of the radiator at idle . This one IMO doesnt pull like I think it should/could. And it doesnt really help much when i bring it up off idle

Also, base timing was almost 18-19 degrees , I bumped that down to about 15 to see if it had any effect , So far nuttin

Ps, here is the Milodon pump. pretty good size fins that go all the way to the outer limits of the hsg
pt 16260

I would really rather not use an aftermkt aluminum fan if i can help it. simply due to looks .

Void space between the center hub and the blades on that design is not great. Thinkin the Edelbrock would have been a better choice even though they cost more.

I would say it needs more initial timing, try 22 to 25 , helps to get the heat off the cylinder walls & go out the exhaust valve

I pulled the water pump off of it tonight so I have a baseline / know exactly what I have.

And its an 8 blade pump and the fins go all the way to the outer edge of the casting , just barely fits in the hsg itself . So I think its as good as Im gonna get in regards to a pump

A few years ago I battled a cooling issue with my Charger and I went through the same process as you. Long story short scale/rust/crud in the block broke loose and lodged in the radiator cooling tubes, which limited flow through the radiator. I had the radiator rodded and I put in a tefba filter which solved the problem. I was surprised how much crud it captured. I talked to Gus (fourgearsavoy) a week back and he recently had a similar experience - he put in a filter and trapped a bunch of crud. If all else fails, have the radiator rodded and put in a filter (at least temporarily).

If the old water pump is now off, I personally would put the “best available” design back on, even though I would still bet the airflow enhancement is the likely final solution.

Bill, I don't know what blade style of fixed fan your running, but is it possible the fan's mounting is flipped or "backwards"?,....just a thought, you never know?....I've seen it before

Mike

It was on there correctly. And its a direct drive fixed design 7 blade


I currently have a couple friends cking for a smaller diam wp pulley.
And if can find one i would like to update to a fixed blade if i can
To speed up fan speed and coolant flow.

If the coolant is drained and the waterpump off it would be the ideal time to snake a video boroscope into as many passages as possible to look for misplaced items like gasket material, large flakes of scale, pieces of Jimmy Hoffa, etc.

it all comes down to air and water flow. I have seen circle track cars with the best of everything run hot. a simple hole at the rear panel let enough air flow -through- the car to drop the problem completely............ I would look hard at the shroud and fan/ locations. air flow through the radiator is most likely where your biggest gains are..........

rite there --- ^^^^^^^

I'll throw this in here; When I built my first stroker, it would heat up around town, did good on the road, but got warm at slow speeds and them would boil over from heat soak when I parked it. Annoying and embarrassing. After a lot of experimenting, I pulled a fan from (I think) an 80s Dodge pick-up. It is huge. The blades are big and have a lot of pitch to them. The problem was, of course, that it wouldn't fit in the Cuda's shroud. It would fit the clutch just fine, but was too big to go into the shroud.

Fortunately, the blades are aluminum. I just marked them, cut them down to size and installed it. That did it. It moves an enormous amount of air. I had it on that engine for several years and have now had it on this Hemi for 4 or 5 years. But it will wear out a clutch every few years, depending on the amount of driving time it gets.

The fan may not be perfectly round or in balance. But it has not given me any problems and I spin the Hemi to 7,000.

Just one experience.

Thanks for the note.

Thats the way Im headed I think. Move more air . Although I would prefer a direct drive non clutch fan

Just to confirm , changing to a smaller diam upper pulley with no change to the lower speeds the fan up correct ?

Correct. And speeds up the water pump too of course.

Ok,

I had nothing to loose so I wanted to try something .
So,,,, I put it back together with what I have. I gutted the original 160 thermostat. so now its nothing but a restrictor plate. I also bumped timing back up to 19 degrees base. Refilled it straight distilled water , added maybe a cup more of the cooling system additive. As the bottle says treats up to 12 quarts. this one was closer to 15 qts. Took it for a 25 mile test drive. So far so good. Its stayed well below half way on the gauge. Which by my earlier test , halfway is right at 190

Ambient temps during said ride were low 80s temps

Im going to drive it several times in a couple different environments before doing anything else to it

And as soon as I find a place its hidden , I will be adding a aftermkt gauge just for good measure before going any deeper.

Do you have a spring in the lower radiator hose?

yes, added one while I had it apart the other day . Before I did this last test

Ok, I figured you'd know to do that, but since you bought the car maybe the previous owner did not.

My dad owns a chevy nova and his radiator temps were sky high on hot summer days according to the temp gauge, and it turned out to be a defective sending unit and nothing more.

UPDATE,
worked on it today

I bought and Installed a mechanical gauge today. So far , so good.
I also put an overflow bottle on it so it doesnt mark its spot anymore As the rad cap is a newer model designed for a return system .

Got it all warmed up sitting at high idle ,,,,, and the stock dash gauge needle pointing straight up the mech gauge is showing right at 170ish . Im gonna run it a while and see where it operates regularly . Im really starting to think im chasing a bad gauge or sending unit.

Good progress!

Now on to reducing pinging to where you do not need to use a special gasoline blend?

You still might want a higher flow fan.

I am planning a different fan , maybe. I want to drive it a bit and make sure all is good. before doing anything else cooling system wise .

As far as reducing the race gas mix thing. THAT'S gonna require a complete tear down and new pistons. Thats a project for a day down the road a ways. Its not an everyday driver so $100 fuel tank fill ups dont really bother me to much .

Before doing all that consider trying a J&S Safeguard

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/

Or an Aquamist system

http://www.racemarque.com/product/aquamist-hfs3-water-methanol-injection-system/#.X7-awC01ihA

Got any updates?

Ive had it out a couple times . So far the car runs SUPER cool. Like below 150 degrees to cold cool with the gutted thermostat . IMO to cold . Keeping in mind ambient temps have been a tad chily around here

I have a couple different temp range Stewart Components high flow thermostats coming and plan to replace both radiator hoses while its apart this time.

If it runs cold without a thermostat then your cooling system should be fine. Sounds like your old thermostat wasn't working properly. I had the same issue with an issue. The thermostat checked out okay when tested in hot water on the stove, but it made the engine overheat. It was a new thermostat but it didn't work properly. The next new one solved the problem. Lots of junk for sale at the auto parts store these days.

My thoughts exactly

New Stat should be here today or tomorrow

One step closer.
Stant superstat on the left.
Stewart industries high flow on the right.

It with new radiator hoses go on this week.

Time will tell soon enough if im on the right track

just a word about water wetter. [which was the orig question] from what I remember , it was used to help prevent water from flashing into a vapor [ due to hot spots in the cyl head ] and I think it helped keep air/vapor pockets from forming on the back of combustion chambers. the term surface tension was what they used. it was very effective for that reason. it made that part of the cooling system work better which could lower temps some overall. the big gain as I understood it , was better control of combustion due to the elimination of hot spots. iirc, the gm vortec head with a closed combustion chamber had added front to rear coolant lines to the heads that were all about this same issue. they were so efficient that timing of 32* made best power. also, most racing sanctions don't allow any antifreeze, so this was helpful for lube and corrosion too ...

Thanks,
I used Rislone water treatment ( couldn't get Water wetter locally ) and So far so good.

with a gutted thermostat in it the car runs in the 130-140 range running down the road ,,,which is obviously to cold ( including expressway ) , It gets to maybe 160 ish range at extended idle

Im thinking I may pull and send the radiator out to Glen-ray next spring when the car hibernates for the hot summer . But will see where its running at that point in time

while you have the gutted thermostat in and the weather is cool,
it might be a good time to do some experiments
on pinging versus coolant temperature.

Years ago (about 1999)
I decided to do an Oxalic Acid flush of the cooling system of the Magnum 5.9V8 in a 1995 Ram.
With distilled water, Prestone Oxalic Acid flush and no thermostat
I pretty quickly noticed that the light pinging on 85 AKI gasoline I usually had in the hot 95-99 North Carolina summer weather disappeared.
My coolant gauge and scanner readings showed 145 degrees coolant temperature.

I tested for pinging on a steep 4% grade hill by going to full throttle in 2nd gear.

My fuzzy memory is that a 10 degree coolant temperature change leads to 5 Octane number fuel requirement change.

Bill do you mind relaying what degree thermostat you installed?

I thought i had ordered both 160 and a 180 stat.
But when it arrived its just the 160.
Guessed clicked wrong
Put it in yesterday. With new radiator hoses. Refilled with same distilled water and wetting agent.

Fired it up in the garage .....And the temps stayed in the 170 ish temp range at idle speeds. For over a half hour.
Will be driving it this weekend and will see how it does on the road.