help on front end alignment

putting a 1967 b-body together. set the front end height 1 7/8 -2". turned the rear cam bolts all the way in both sides. front cam bolts all the way out both sides. Caster is great 3 -4 deg. pos. both sides, camber is way out approx 4 deg. pos also, didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the exact number wheels were leaning visibly. Start to turn front cams in to bring camber into range. I cant get both sides equal. best I could do was split differences. ended up with -.5 deg.caster both sides but get 1 pos. degree camber on the left and 1.5 pos. degree right in camber if I bring the camber down I get farther on the negative side of the caster. any thought or opinions?

that sounds about right. factory upper control arms?

I put some Firm Feel upper control arms on my 67 Coronet and I was able to get 2.5* Caster and -.5* Camber.
I set my ride height about the same as what you stated, there is some rake from the SS springs on the rear too, so if it sat level the caster might be a little better.

On the adjusters, I started out with the rear all the way inward and the front all the way out. Had to rotate the front adjusters to roughly 12 o'clock position to get the camber where it needed to be. The driver side seemed to have a little better numbers than the pass side, I rotated the rear adjuster on that side out just a touch to get the caster even side to side.

yep factory arms....
what about changing the ride height Does anyone know if raising or lowering would help?

Raising will decrease camber and lowering will increase camber. Moog makes off-set upper arm bushings which can be set to different positions depending on what the situation calls for.

raising will also increase positive caster, while lowering will decrease positive caster.

Another recommendation for the offset bushing. Install the rear bushings with the thicker rubber towards the engine, the front bushings go opposite. Do not follow the instructions in the box.

By flipping one pair of bushings you get more caster adjustment which allows you to bring the camber into range.

Most of the time offset bushings in the front location will help. The factory caster spec for manual steering was -1/2. That's whats built into the suspension. I shortened my strut rods 3/8"as well. Cut them apart. Turned the the ends in the lathe. The connected them with Moly tubing.
Doug

OK so I got my bushings. If because I could get good caster but too much +camber I was thinking to install both bushings offsetting the entire arm in board. Opinions on that?

How much negative camber do you want?

Is this a track car of street car?

For street I prefer the extra caster to help self center. For track the extra camber might be advantageous.

I was able to get 3-4 degrees caster but the camber was noticeably positive. I was thinking that if I could get the 3-4 degrees caster that would be fine, and get some negative camber moving the whole arm in.
It's a street/strip car ..manual steering, 255 60's out back and 235 60's up front. If I stagger the bushings for more caster would that lessen the camber results? or does staggering the start to give more camber also because of the swing arc? This is my first time messing with these offset bushings.

Do you have the car on an alignment rack? If so, what are the readings. If you stagger the bushings, that shouldn't change camber. Do you not have enough adjustment with the factory eccentrics? This is a stock suspension, I assume. I always set up stock suspensions like BWD suggested with the off-set bushings. I like as much positive caster as I can dial in. Usually I set camber to -1/4 (or close to that) and have no issues using the eccentrics. If you're still way too much positive on the camber (and nothing is bent) you may have to sacrifice some caster to get the camber dialed in. Since you've modified the strut rods, that's what I'd do. Jeff

No alignment rack just bubble caster camber gauge. Right now I have 1/2 degree negative caster both sides camber is 1 degree positive on one side and 1.5 degrees positive on the other. If I go positive on the caster then I get more positive camber. I can get 3 to 4 degrees positive caster with the eccentrics but the camber is ridiculously positive.

Move the rear eccentric only so the ball joint moves aft, (control arm moves inward) that is positive caster, neg camber. If you have any adjustment left

rear eccentric when moved so that the ball joint goes aft, rear of the arm in, increases the positive camber. When I start with the ball joint full forward I have neg. camber as I move it aft, rearward,It just keeps going more and more positive. This is all stock parts ...but the spindle is the taller 1973 and up one. If I can set the caster say 3 degrees positive both sides but have excessive positive camber. then install both bushings offset inboard do you know how many degrees camber the bushings will give approximately? I was thinking if Install them staggered the I wouldn't get as much out of the camber. Might be one of those Things I'll have to try.

You have caster/camber designations confused by the statement in your last post.. When you move the rear of the arm in, the upper ball joint moves rearward. This increases positive caster. It also moves the camber more negative. Positive caster is the upper ball joint behind the lower ball joint. Moving either cam so the upper arm moves inward moves the camber negative. Negative camber is the top of the tire leaning inward toward the vehicle centerline. Never aligned an early Mopar that had excessive positive camber and caster. I've aligned hundreds. Usually start with the front cams all the way out. The rears all the way in. Now you have to tweak the difference between the front and rear cams to obtain the camber you desire. Then a little more adjustment to get the caster equal on both sides. Seldom will you have over 3 degrees positive caster with 0 camber.
Doug

Thats the way I started, front of the arm all the way out ,rear of the arm all the way in, in other words upper ball joint as far rearward as possible had between 3-4 degrees positive caster both sides, but top of the tire is leaning out, positive camber. The only way it will reduce positive camber is bringing the ball joint forward.

Bringing the upper ball joint rearward never shows camber moving negative, no matter how far I move the upper ball joint rearward the camber tracks positive, it never starts to go in the negative camber direction.

If I start from the front position (upper ball joint) camber is negative, moving the upper ball joint rearward, it continues the camber in the positive direction until I run out of adjustment in the cams.

When I get to 0 camber my caster is almost 2 negative, again any movement of the upper ball joint rearward puts me in positive camber land.

Right now I have the rear cam all the way in and the front cam is approx. straight up (middle of adjustment, resulting in 1/2 degree negative caster and 1 degree positive camber. If I go after positive caster the camber goes positive more.

B1MAXX, Get the Moog offset bushing and install them the way BDW's post shows. That will move the rear of the control arm in which will help move the caster positive and the camber negative. I don't know if you will get to 3 or 4 degrees positive caster but it will be better than what you have now and you will be able to get the camber in the 0 to -.5 degree range. You may have already done so but I would check the condition of the rest of the suspension (lower control arm bushings / ball joints will affect camber) and make sure the floor is level where you're measuring the alignment. I have to use shims under the tires to level mine before doing alignments at home.

I'm assuming you have not installed the offset bushings yet. Your readings in post #1 send up a red flag to me. Never seen that much positive caster on a B body in my life. Does this car have B body lower control arms? A body will fit (the shocks wont). A body will be stamped V/L on the front of the arm. Something isnt right. There is no way you can get that much camber with the rear cam pulled all the way in in a normal situation. Moving the rear cam in will reduce positive camber and add positive caster.
Doug

Here is some pics of what I have found messing with this ...control arm doesn't follow centerline of the car.

so You end up with this geometry when the rear cam is drawn in, it moves the upper ball joint rearward, driving the top of the tire out. Might be just on this car...

this pic is where I had it. 1/2 degree neg. caster....1 degree positive camber. Rear cam all the way in, front cam In the middle of adjustment.

this pic is with the rear still all the way in , front cam now moved all the way out...Didn't measure this time just moved it for reference but when I started I had it this way. Cant remenber the number but it is leaning more out at the top...

would it be possible to place a shim between the lower ball joint and the spindle ?
that would effectively move the bottom out, giving you negative camber.
i have had to do that on a couple of crashed cars that were still slightly tweeked after the repairs.
you could use grade 8 washers, or make a shim the shape of the lower ball joint attaching point.
i can't say how thick to start, but maybe .093 [3/32"] or .125 [1/8"] ?

there are these spacers...
http://arengineering.com/products/tie-down-set-0-188-thick-3-inch-length/

i thought i remembered someone had those, but i forgot who. ["oldtimers disease" ]
thanks for the reminder !
it looks maybe a couple of grade 8 washers [like in the link] might do the trick. way easier than fabbing up a plate shim.

Same thinking...I was going use the bushings to offset the whole upper arm in. I'm sure we could figure it out say imagine a circle with the the upper joint as the center draw a radius line out to the lower joint the factor in the shim and figure out the degrees.

Funny this car was never wrecked, and all stock, except for a spindle swap.

keep the comments coming, will post the progress...thanks everyone If anyone cares...

I'm telling you something is wrong. Wrong part, bent,etc. The rear cam ALWAYS draws the upper ball joint rearward. Do you have the upper arms on the correct side? I have over 30 years alignment experience. Never seen one with readings like this on a B body.
Doug

Right, upper ball joint rearward... tilts the top out...at least on this car.

OK, so here is the rear cam in, front cam out, camber is 2 degrees positive.

turned the front cam in (pulls upper ball joint forward) get some negative camber a quarter degree

I still agree with Doug. No way possible that should give you positive camber. I've done alignments for 40+ years and hundreds of old muscle cars. I see you don't have fenders, bumper etc on car. That weight will make a difference! I wish you were closer, I love to see what you have. Sounds like you're just going to have to find a happy medium and leave it. Jeff

Yeah, figured I would re-set to height after I hang all the stuff back on.

I'm no nu-be here either, not a professional though. None of my vehicles have been to an alignment shop in over 20 years, even my every day stuff. I am new to the offset bushings though. My gut says to put both bushings in so it draws the whole arm in, not one in one out. I'm not sure how much neg camber that would give...maybe too much. This car didn't drive bad before being parked...think about that one Probably will now

i might be in the wrong here and mis-understand what the OP is saying.
but when i did front alignments on old mopars on a older alignment machine. it wasn't that old, it did record and respond the measurements electronically.
to get CASTER you had to turn the wheel it think 20* to the right. save the measurement. then turn the wheels 20* to the left, save the measurement. than put the wheels to 0*, save the measurement and do something with the measurements to get actual caster measurement. called caster swing.
i don't know exactly what is required with the measurement because the machine figured it electronically.

to the OP are you doing this? or am i mis-understanding what you are trying to say on the measurements?

also you can't get accurate alignment #'s with the front end removed. the missing parts weigh a fair amount. after adding this weight it will lower the car and decrease your positive CAMBER #'s towards negative caber. and increase your positive CASTER #'s to higher positive numbers. for all you know you might already be getting good #'s and don't know it.
also you need turning plates, or something on the floor to ease turning the wheels. you also need them to measure the * of wheel turn on your caster swing. doing this on without anything will also make getting proper #'s really difficult.
also are you setting the ride height before starting. if the front end is to high or low this can throw off your #'s. if it's to high you will get lower positive caster and higher, positive camber. if it's to low you will get higher positive caster and lower positive camber.

I must correct some of my prior posts....I re-swept the caster tonight several times with the ball joint all the way back, rear cam in, front cam out, 40 * sweep, 20 degrees out 20 degrees in. I am only getting 3/4 of a degree positive caster. So final reading is with the front end height set at 2" and upper arm set back as far as possible is 2 degrees positive camber.. 3/4 of a degree positive caster.
If I lowered the front end it might bring camber back. But I have a deep sump pan and want to run the 2" height. So I am going to install the bushings per the previously described, front out and rear in to gain more caster. Still not sure how it will effect the camber but we'll find out.

i wasn't criticizing, i wasn't fully understanding the situation. that's why i made my comments.

whenever i had problems with alignments i was always taught to start at the beginning and make sure everything is proper when you start getting goofy #'s.

i want to again stress the importance of either turn tables or plates with grease on the floor. i don't see anything in the pics you provided. without this it can throw off you #'s pretty easily.

also i don't know if you are doing this but whenever i make adjustments or start getting goofy #'s i like to cycle the suspension a couple of times then re-measure everything again..

I have two old pieces of linoleum flooring that are greased between, you can kind of see them in the last pic. next step is in stall the bushings and see what the results are. The feedback is appreciated...
You're right when I did move them for the picture purposes there was no plates. Any time the gauge is on it I have the plates under it.

Here is what I have found:
1. Typical factory settings I have always been able to dial in. This is the first car of mine with a non original height spindle. This is the 70's disc b-body spindle which was taller than the original one that it replaced
2. The factory geometry runs one way, more caster more camber. At least on this car.
3. The factory settings were not achievable. too much camber. It was close, but I didn't want the factory settings anyway, 0-3/4*positive camber and 0-1*negative caster.
4. getting negative camber along with positive caster is a tough one. Using offset bushings I was able to get 1.5 degrees positive caster but the camber was still positive. The issue is you already have the rear cam and offset bushing so that the rear of the arm is in as far as it will go. So the only way of pulling the camber back is to bring the front in from max out.Which starts to draw the caster back also.
5. shimming the lower ball joint with washers was they only last solution, reducing camber with out losing caster.
6. Unless you are pushing the max adjustment the offset bushings don't help much, mine where only required in the rear position even though I put them in both.. It allowed more inward movement of the rear of the arm beyond that of the factory cam. Because I had to wind the front in from max out to reduce positive camber it just changes the position of the cam based on the offset of the bushing, when you get to your acceptable trade off, camber for caster and vise versa.The sweet spot would have been achievable with a straight front bushing also.

My very good friend has an alignment rack in his auto repair business, but after deliberation, once the car is on the road we believe we will find the same result.

must be the way the earlier cars are designed. or maybe 66-67 specifically..
like i said, I put firm feel upper arms on my 67 Coronet, and it had the taller spindle for disc brakes on it already so I kept them. With the cams adjusted the way you started out I had visible positive Camber, to adjust that out I lost some of the Caster but I ended up at 2.5* Caster and got to -.25* Camber on the Pass side.
The Driver side had a little better numbers so I adjusted some Pos Caster and some Neg Camber out to get that side to match the Pass side.