Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum

I am looking at putting more cooling into my car, currently has factory brass/copper rad (2 row) . . . I can get factory unit recored with high efficiency 3row, or new brass/copper 3row, OR aluminum 2row or 3row . . . not too concerned about the OE look (the aluminum rad would be painted black to diminish that AL look . . . put just wondering which would give best cooling for the buck ???? Car runs hotter than I like when at highway speeds (about 3/4 way up on temp gauge, but turning on heater helps, so figure not enough cooling from the rad itself) . . . .

Oh, this isn't the Sport Satellite - it has factory 3row 26" with high efficiency rad - cools GREAT !!

Thoughts ???

Thanks

I had a similar situation with my BB Coronet, so maybe sharing my experience will help. I originally had a 26 inch 3 row radiator and at hwy speeds in the summer (temps in the 90's), the coolant temp would slowly increase the faster I went. To me, that indicated insufficient cooling capacity since airflow is not an issue at those speeds.

So I decided to try a 2 row aluminum radiator. Same core size, 26 inch with 2 rows of 1 inch tubes (think the brass radiator 3 rows of 1/2 inch tubes). On paper, the aluminum radiator has a larger tube surface area which should increase the cooling capacity. After installing the radiator and driving on the hwy at similar temps, the coolant temp was lower than before. With the brass radiator, the coolant temp was about 200-205F and with the aluminum radiator, the temp dropped down to around 190-195F.

Hope this helps. But be aware that your results may vary.

the first thing i would do, is see just what temperature "3/4's of the way" on the gauge really is.
a harbor fright infrared temperature probe would give you a good starting point.
your cooling system may be working ok, but the sending unit or gauge may not be.

as to the radiator choice, it seems the aluminum ones today are the best cooling bang for the buck. champion seems to have a good reputation.
just my opinion. your mileage may vary.

This.

You need to find your starting point.

That being said, I have a 22" 4-row copper/brass in my '65 Dodge (440-6, 727, 3.23) and I have no cooling issues at all. I'm running an OE fan shroud (mid-70's, 6-cyl A-body), and no clutch fan. Car runs 175-185 cruising, 190-195 in traffic. 160 degree thermostat. If you can get a 4-row core for the factory radiator, I would go that route. The 3-row HE should be sufficient, but I prefer 4-rows.

Copy what you have in your Sport Satellite. If it works then just duplicate it.

Copper and brass will, if in good shape, transfer more heat into the air stream than aluminum will.
I went through this with my old pump gas car, the new aluminum cooled better for one summer and then did worse the next summer
I had put 50% anti freeze in both but the aluminum lost it ability to shed heat into the air stream over the winter
I took it to a radiator shop and they did something to make it work for that summer and it did the same thing the next winter
I will only buy copper and brass now

I agree with seaBee but you can make the alum almost as efficient as brass by running a mild flush through it every couple of months ... plus the alum is lighter

The textbooks say differently.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-metals-d_858.html

I do have a handheld infrared temp gun to check the temps . . . will have to do that . . . I ask the question, cause I have "heard" that a 2 row AL would be better than a 3row brass/copper rad . . . personally I would lean towards the 3row brass/copper rad first . . .but, just wanted to get a consensus from the "board"members. . . I have always had good luck with going with the "factory" cooling, including 195deg stat, fan/fan shroud, rad . . . etc . . .

This is going to be part of the springtime, bring the car back on the road . . .right now tucked away for winter . . . uh, car is 64 Ford Falcon convertible with 200 CID 6banger (all stock). . .

A Furd FailCoon on a mopar site ! .. this is blasphemy!

If memory serves, Falcon 6s had pretty small radiators.
And they were working pretty hard at highway speeds.
It's very similar to a Mustang, and you can buy dang near a whole Mustang from a catalog.
So, I'd check the various Mustang resto-parts outfits & see what's available.

Did you look at that chart?
I think shedding 392 K at 127 F with copper is way better than shedding 240 K at 127 F with aluminum
I'm not the smartest guy on this site so if I'm reading that chart wrong please help me by correcting my thoughts on this

I think you are mis interpreting the chart. The chart is showing IMO thermal conductivity changes at different "'K", or absolute temp. Its not overly clear. For our interests and temps the last column is useful enough, thermal conductivity, and brass alloy is noticeably less rated then alum, that surprised me because pure copper is much higher then alum.

I also am far from the smartest guy here and somebody else is welcome to take this discussion farther or correct as needed.

Fins in a radiator are copper, not brass. the tubes are brass.

copper/brass is better at heat transfer than aluminum. Though that level of better is limited by the lead solder connecting the fins to the tubes but even with that limitation it is still better than aluminum and the design of the fin tube interface can ameliorate the silder issue.

https://www.hotrodhotline.com/content/aluminum-vs-copper-brass-article-us-radiator#.XjJI8Yh7mM8

I spent 33 yrs in the telephone industry working on the lines and outside plant equipment and finally managing the inside and outside equipment departments providing service to our customers. We always used copper instead of aluminum lines for its better conductivity, the power companies switch to aluminum and increase the size of their lines due to cheaper costs of the lines. Copper does conduct both heat and electricity way always better than aluminum is what our design engineers preached when it came to buying lines or components, gold being the best conductor

Good article, but I read there tests were done in 1999, I wonder if the current Al. radiators have improved and wonder if the testing has as well?

[quote=topside]If memory serves, Falcon 6s had pretty small radiators.
And they were working pretty hard at highway speeds.
It's very similar to a Mustang, and you can buy dang near a whole Mustang from a catalog.
So, I'd check the various Mustang resto-parts outfits & see what's available.
[/quote

Totally correct - amazing the number of parts available, and how cheap they are !!! . . . I can get complete new rad (brass/copper or alum) from local mustang shop - brass/copper 3row, about $125 less than 2 or 3 row Alum . . .

And so true about that little 200CID, 6cyl, working hard at highway speed - only Ford would make a head with an integral intake manifold for ONLY one tiny carb !!! . . . UGGHHH . . .

You might also want to pull the thermostat & flush the cooling system.
Check the thermostat opening temp in a pot of water on the stove with a meat thermometer.
Water (I like distilled) cools better than anti-freeze; if you can do 70% water where you live, that helps.

Plus, there are some aero tricks:
1. Cover holes & gaps in the rad support so all the air goes through the radiator.
2. Put an air dam under the rad support to force more air up through the radiator.
3. Vent underhood heat, but it really won't look stock.

$125 for a stock-looking 3-row is a pretty smokin' deal, actually better than I thought.
We should be so fortunate in the Mopar world...

Alum. more prone to corrosion then brass/copper in rads. Also with any/most alum. parts exposed to gases/liquids/contaminants in a cooling system. Alum. oxide is a notorious corrosion to deal with in general. Could it be inside had "some" corrosion that hindered heat transfer & shop "flushed" out that corrosion?

as per link:

"The thermal conductivity or heat transfer rate of copper is 92% versus aluminum which is approximately 49%. However, the copper fin bonded to the tubes, or water passages, using lead solder is very inefficient and slows the heat transfer rate to just slightly better than that of aluminum."

Doesn't address directly the issue of the lower conductivity of the brass tubes vs/alum.

Explain the method of ameliorating the copper/brass interface to any significant degree in this situation.

I'm also wondering, what exactly does "92%" and "49%" referenced to, pure water?

LOL . . . that was the price DIFFERENCE between the two types of rads . . . think it's $325 for brand new brass/copper versus $450 for the Alum rad. But yes, it is amazing the lower cost of the "Ford" parts . . .

Another advantage to brass/copper is that it has the ability to be repaired, rodded out if it gets plugged up. If the aluminum ones get plugged, you buy a new one as I doubt you can find anyone to cut off the tanks, rod it, then re Tig weld it at a sane price. I run aluminum, but consider them disposable. I have been running two Champions for 6 years now and I am happy with their performance and price.

I have to say I don't think it is the rad.
If it works at idle, then higher speeds don't generally reduce cooling.

Higher speed warm up is going to be caused by something else.
blocking air flow would be the first thing I would look at.

for instance a mechanical fan clutched, might be having issues with the clutch. I had one going bad, that allowed the car to warm up quite a bit on the highway.

Or an electric fan, aftermarket, that doesn't allow enough airflow at speed.

Or not enough water flow.
For instance that sucking shut the lower rad hose.
Or a pump going bad, not allowing enough flow.

I would ask if it cools off just fine once you come off the highway.
If so then I would say you don't actually have a cooling issue with your rad.

To Ponder: IRT heat dissipation: Why is a flat/semi black finish a (+) for a radiator, while chrome for a transmission pan may be a (-) ?

Maybe just for appearance, as in spraying black behind the grill??

Joe

IRT heat dissipation

The radiator shops I've ask about the black paint on rebuilt radiators they did said that black paint is special that sucks more heat out of the water passages into the cooling fins, true or false

Any kind of coating restricts heat transfer from a block or heads OR a radiator...

But I don’t think it’s a massive problem

Black has better emissivity, you have to be careful about the paint and also the thickness since at some point it would become a disadvantage since it would act like insulation.

I'll politely disagree as at highway speeds one is generating more heat. I had a 69 Coronet R/T (members car) with 22 inch Radiator. Measuring the temperature with a laboratory grade thermocouple probe and digital meter. The car had the same symptoms. I could type out a novel on the things tried and hours lost. There most definitely are other things that can lead to the problem but in my experience it is generally an inefficient core or undersized radiator. The final fix was sending the radiator to from Glen ray. He said the issue lies with the quality of the cores today and their efficiency.
That was about 5 years ago and last I heard it has never gone above 190 degrees PERIOD.
I probably lost over 200 hours on that one. Actually completely rebuilt the motor twice. As I said I could write a novel on the things tried.
This was a stock application and maintaining the stock radiator was required.

As to which is better IE: brass/copper vs aluminum. I do not think anyone can answer that question with any certainty as there are way to may variables involved. fins per inch, How they're attached, thickness of fins/ tubes, number of tubes, size of tubes, staggered tubes or not, and the list goes on

We later had a 65 GTO with the exact same issue. This car came in with a reproduction radiator that was less than a year old and a new motor. Getting a core installed from Glen rays suggested source again cured the problem.

You got that. Most think of black as a Heat Absorbing color, which it is. But wrt cars it's mostly about Dissipating heat.

As much as you and I want to believe this your statement is incorrect. I need to dig out some white papers related to cooling of hydro-static systems in large earth moving equipment done by a multi billion dollar corporation. The long and the short was painted components (including tubing etc) increase the systems cooling efficiency. Heads and blocks are no where as efficient at eliminating heat when compared to your radiator and oil cooler. Get the heat to your properly sized cooling components so they may eliminate it. I was most surprised by the recommendation to paint hydraulic tubing vs plating.

After reading that paper I wouldn't hesitate to paint aluminum heads for a more stock appearance.

Feel free to flame away!

TY
Red

Yo Red .... me thimks your premise is DEAD !

I’d like to see the papers you say exist

FIRST THING that comes to mind that blows your belief out of the water is the operational effect of jet hot coating of exhaust system items.

i always thought exhaust coatings were to keep the heat IN, so as to speed up the exhaust flow.

Correct....

Joe

so with that in mind, engines make more hp at a "given" temperature, so has anyone dyno'd a bare engine's hp, then painted it and dyno'd it again for comparison ?
just for example, a new hellcat has a high temperature thermostat, while most here worry when the temperature on an older muscle engine gets to 190.
myself, i don't start to worry until i see 235 or so. [provided of course, the engine is built right with quality components]
am i really crazy ? [wait, don't answer that ! ]

Well consider 1 Hp is approx 754 watts, A 754 watt heater puts our a bit of heat IMO. Hopping for a power increase of multiple HP would sure be a significant reduction in radiant heat, by a engine color change ,enough i suspect one would notice it by simply opening the hood of a running motor. that has never been an observation I read here.

The takeaway, yes the motor emits less heat with a lighter color. Is it measurable, maybe, Is it much, not enough for us to care.

Also, I am no making a clear distinction above between headers/color and engine color. They are separate issues.

And Jenkins in Pro stock is claimed to paint his motors white, so there.

I remember reading about Grumpy always painting the inner fenders, under hood and radiator cross support white to help keep heat in the motor according to that article, but maybe he was messing with the writer

Yo Stoney the jet hot makes my case! It may be extremely beneficial to jet hot everything sans heat exchanger but the cost would be ridiculous!
TY
Red

Yo Doc I haven’t found the white paper yet, but the below addresses painting components not quite as scientifically but I can find more.

Note the discussion was comparing hose Vs tubing.

“ Tube is Cool
Hydraulic tubing has some compelling advantages of its own. One of these is its superior heat transfer, especially if it’s painted.

One aspect of heat transfer is thermal radiation. The total radiation from an object is the sum of its reflection, emissivity and transmission of heat through the object.

When hydraulic tubing is painted, it reduces its reflectance and increases its emissivity, enabling better heat rejection, as this case study published in Hydraulics and Pneumatics magazine1 illustrates:

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An industrial hydraulic installation was originally designed to operate at 1,200 psi and at a maximum operating temperature of 120 degrees Fahrenheit (49 degrees Celsius). Zinc dichromate-coated steel tube distributes fluid from the 600-liter reservoir to the various stations around the plant. Over the years, the system had been added to (without any increase in installed cooling capacity)—to the point where it was now overheating in the summer months.

Because the system operated satisfactorily for 10 months out of the year, management did not want to spend the money necessary to upgrade the cooling system. So, one of the maintenance guys on staff who was familiar with the thermal radiation theory described earlier suggested painting the hydraulic system’s tubing.

Before proceeding, the maintenance team did a test. Team members applied electrical tape to two of the hydraulic tubes, and using an infrared camera, they measured the difference in temperature between the taped and untaped areas. They found the taped areas on the tubes were 7 degrees F (4 degrees C) cooler than the untaped areas.

This gave the maintenance team the confidence to proceed with the idea. Because the rest of the hydraulic system was painted flat white, the tubing was painted the same color.

And, the result? A week and 12 cans of spray paint later, the system was running 10 degrees F (5.5 degrees C) cooler. This might not sound like much, but the end result meant that the hydraulic system could now operate through the two hottest months of the year without overheating. It also meant that the need to increase installed cooling capacity was at least deferred, if not eliminated.”

There are many things in life we believe that are untrue! Maybe at your advanced age and rate ov dEcAY, learnin aiNt n0 longer possible?

Some of my initial description of why, may be incorrect!

TY
Red

those silly auto engineers keep making these aluminum car radiators thinner and thinner----makes me wonder if its more efficient---also if going aluminum---the best low cost units are sold by speedway---those race car guys are breaking radiators all the time---speedway also leads the low cost race on budget disc brake setups--for the budget racers in our crowd......

Interesting story. I have always been a believer in color effecting thermal radiation.

However with the described test:

"Before proceeding, the maintenance team did a test. Team members applied electrical tape to two of the hydraulic tubes, and using an infrared camera, they measured the difference in temperature between the taped and untaped areas."

The believably of the test results would have been better served if the test would would been between a black piece of tape and a white one.

Also suspect the length of the piping color changed (12 cans worth?) was significant relative to the rest of system, and why a noticeable temp change was the positive result.

There is more scientific data out there, I'm not sure how much time I will spend looking for it!!

Red

Yeah rEd ! ... sounds like a typical story of someone with almost zErO ammo !