383 Build Options - Roadrunner

I know there are a ton of posts on the web about recipes for rebuilding engines and unfortunately I'm introducing another one, hopefully you can help.

I have a '69 Roadrunner with the stock 383/4-spd with 93K original miles and manual brakes/steering. The engine/tranny have never been opened before. It has stock exhaust manifolds, intake/carb, dizzy, etc. I've been driving it but the power is down and the plugs get oil fouled fairly quickly so I want to rebuild the engine. I want to use this car for a daily driver (drive it to work 3/4 days a week) so my first priority is a drive-able, reliable, turn-key engine. I'm looking for a stock-ish build (335-350 hp). I would like to hop in the car and drive it as if it was 1974 (just another car that runs fine).

Here are my must haves:
-No timing issues (pre-detonation/pinging)
-No over heating
-No vapor lock, or heat-soak issues
-Stock power (~335 hp)

I am NOT willing to:
-Stroke it
-Do head porting
-Replace heads
-Do a lot of machine work (squaring the block, align hone, porting, etc)
-Use race gas (must be pump friendly)

I am willing to:
-Do a valve job w/hardened seats
-Use aluminum intake (dual plane)
-Use new carb
-Use electronic ignition
-Use headers if necessary

I guess looking back at what I wrote it really boils down to what pistons/cam should I use, and what intake/carb and exhaust do you suggest with them?

Can you please provide thoughts?

2315 Piston and Crower 271 cam. DP4B or std Performer and carb of your choice.

Put on Stealth heads, which will be almost cost neutral with fixing your heads, new ICON domed piston same cam/intake and enjoy the additional 30 hp for free.

a few years ago I put together a 383 for a friend. this wasn't a low budget build;,,,,,,it was a no budget build! anyhow, he bought a sealed power engine rebuild kit from summit that had the 2315 pistons, bearings, and some gaskets. I had some fairly stock '906 heads that were in good shape (mild pocket port, ferrea stock size valves, unleaded exhaust seat, crane springs) I gave him to use along with some fel-pro 8519 head gaskets. we used a summit 6400 cam with a used cloyes 3104 timing set. I rebuilt the stock point distributor (a little timing curve change) and stock carb (used stock intake) with stock jetting. this thing runs like a top, pump gas friendly. it exceeded my expectations without throwing a ton of money at it. oh, and it's a '69 383 4spd 3.23 rear super bee.

20 years ago I rebuilt the 383 in my Challenger. I spent $500 on the 906's for the valve job and new valve springs,retainers, and keepers. Didn't put in hardened exhaust seats, but would recommend you do for frequent use. I cleaned up the ports, but by no means did any real porting. I used. 039 fel pro head gaskets, but looking back should have used. 020 shim gaskets to keep some compression. The cylinders were pretty good, so I did a quick touch up with a Ridge reamer, and gave it a quick hone. I cleaned and decarboned the pistons, threw new rings on and threw them in with new bearings. Used an old cam my dad had laying around from the early 80's. It was a Comp cam High Energy. 454/.454, 216 @ . 050. I didn't have a clue about cams then, but it seemed to work pretty good with the engine. Added a high volume oil pump, some hooker headers, and an Edelbrock 750. Ran 2.5" exhaust to the mufflers and 2.25" to the exhaust tips. Later I put on an RPM intake.
I built this on the cheap as I didn't have much cash back then. Knowing what I know now, I would have built it better, but it still runs awesome for what it is, and I have had no problems with it. Oh, and it easily runs on 87 gasoline, since the compression is probably only 8.5:1.

You should spend some time talking with a local machine shop about your options. If it was my engine I'd put aluminum heads on it since 40 year old cast iron heads tend to be a money sink. I'd also put a Holley Sniper on it rather than a carb just because that will give you fully adjustable fuel and ignition. But it is hard to convince anyone of this stuff until they learn it the hard way so I understand where you are coming from.

Step one - determine the budget for the complete engine build..... air filter to oil pan.

That will usually dictate the direction things go.

A 93k original can have several things that aren’t causing issues now, but you wouldn’t want to put them back into a fresh build.

Rods might need work, crank might need grinding, rockers could be toast, etc.

Pretty easy to drop a G note on old iron heads........ although “fundamentally” I like stock sized heads with stock sized valves over aftermarket aluminum on mild 361/383 sized builds.
Although sometimes it’s not always economically appealing to use them.

Sounds like Lew’s build would suit your needs.

the last set of '906's I had done was $800. this was bronze guides, ferrea stock size stainless valves, unleaded exhaust seats and had some bad intake seats, mill work, cleaning , etc. $200 of the $800 was there "bracket/pocket port" work. could've done it myself and saved the $200 and not necessary for something to drive. there's pro's and con's to the alum head thing and I wouldn't consider that direction for a stock or near stock build. once you start down that path then the money will start stacking up because it leads to other "wants/needs". i'd keep it simple and enjoy the ride.

at 93,000 miles your going to find a whole lotta places to put money. i'll bet there's enough taper in the cylinders to measure with a yard stick. heads will be wore out but as long as there's no cracks fixable. bet the babbit is gone off the rod bearings they're eating the crank up. can't imagine what that silent timing chain looks like. one real issue is stock main bearings can't be bought anymore. all I could find was the full groove truck mains. i'm not opposed to full groove but they are noticeably looser than stock. they didn't seem to have an adverse effect on the 383 I did, but i'd preferred stock half grooves and a little tighter clearance. the only thing hard about picking a camshaft is the many choices. anything with .480" lift or greater on iron needs to be looked at for retainer to seal clearance; especially with aftermarket retainers.

For sure, where you’re located, and what the cost of living in your area is will have an impact of what you’ll pay for local machine shop services.

In my area...... to disassemble, oven clean, magaflux, install bronze guides, hardened ex seats, flat mill, and then supply new stainless valves, springs, seals, shims(along with the 16 bronze guides and 8 exhaust seats)...... plus the final cleaning and assembly of the heads, setting the spring heights, etc, will cost quite a bit more than $600.

For the ``No vapor lock, or heat-soak issues`` I would use a intake valley pan gasket with the blocked heat crossover.
Linky
The bimetallic spring choke mechanism isn`t going to work anymore though. A carb with an electric choke would be needed for easier cold starts. I use the newest Edelbrock AVS2 650 on my Crown Coupe......I love it!
A half inch wood or plastic carb spacer wouldn`t hurt either.

That's what I would do, except maybe use 452 heads and not worry about the hardened seats.

Last time I had a set of 906 heads fully rebuilt with hard seats and all new parts it cost me over $1500. That was 20 years ago and I haven't used a set of cast iron heads since. The 50 lb weight savings off the nose of the car is also a plus.

Kind of remarkable how these are worn out at 93k, and at 100k now on something like a Honda you change the spark plugs.

the two best cures for vapor lock are a carter 6903 pump and using a return line like the factory vapor separator. I do use heat insulator gaskets under the carb(s).

back in the day my 383 was totally shot at 50,000 miles but I beat on it a lot. to me 93k is a miracle for a muscle car engine.

Lew, what gear was in your Roadrunner? 3.91?

My 440 Charger with a 3.23 gear was consuming a quart of oil every 500 miles. It had about 100,000 miles on it, and the previous (original) owner was a retired female school teacher. My 68 383 Charger I bought in 1976 had 60,000 on it at the time. It was burning some oil then too. It had a 3.23. Realistically, 383 and 318 cars with 2.76 gears were probably 125,000 mile cars. I'm not saying they wouldn't go longer, but they were pretty wore out.

my car came with a 3.55. later on I ran a 4.10 gear. I beat the holy snot out of it. if I remember correctly the engine had .008" taper in the cylinders around 50,000 miles and a couple of cracked pistons. the babbit was gone off the rod bearings so it was copper overlay on the crank. one thing I can say about 383's, they are tough. if I remember correctly the engine had cast iron rings and a rear rope seal.

Lots of engine rebuild shops in Spokane . . . give them a call and see what they would charge for a complete rebuild (long block|) - might be surprised, maybe $1800 at the most ???.. . . and they will look after the heads, seats, pistons, crank, cam, etc . . . . S&J Engines did my 360 . . . they will work with you . . . I had a bit higher compression piston, and 340 type cam, in my 360 . . . was $1,450.00 about 10yrs ago . . . and they give you a warranty . . .

Comparing a 60’s engine design (from any manufacturer) to a later design is like comparing a B-17 to an F-16.
Materials, processes, designs have all improved.

Bore taper is a function of ring radial load and surface area,
Design and material changes for valve seals, rear main, head gasket, valve cover are light years apart.
Manufacturing process play a part in engine durability as well.

I wonder how long these older engines actually lasted when properly maintained.

Hundreds of stores I have heard about the slant six in taxi service in NY running pretty much non-stop for hundreds of thousands of miles. And local law enforcement here saying the B engines were bullet proof (no pun intended).

Hey shoot me a pm. Guy in Yakima May be able to give you some sound advice. I’ll give you his number. He builds a lot Of good reliable motors.

I'll preface this with saying I've had a couple 383s last well into 140K without problems, but they were well-maintained.
One I pounded on a fair bit and the other wasn't.
That said, of the dozen or so 383s I've owned, each one's been a bit different, whether it had 20K or 120K on it, some stronger than others.
One had a low-PSI hole and was surprisingly among the stronger of them; after a blueprint rebuild, even more so.
Here's the deal: the engine will tell you what you need to do, not the other way around.
I'm big on doing things once and enjoying them a long time.
Setting up the short-block - checking/correcting machining, tolerances - and the heads - valve job, likely valves, definitely springs/retainers/keepers - critical.
I always end up going through Eddys & Stealths with a better valve job & springs, so if the OEM heads are OK, I'd run them.
I rarely have hardened seats in old street cars, unless the old seats are beat. Depends on usage.
If it's a #s car, you'd be wise to keep it as stock-appearing as possible & avoid the hot-rod temptation.
That said, a good ignition (corrected MP electronic, GM or Pertronix drop-in, whatever) and an Eddy AVS2 650 are 2 worthwhile updates.
I generally run 'em pretty stock, 10-12* initial, 36* total, vac advance, on 91-93 just fine.

You have a PM from me on this subject

PM's sent.

Thanks for the information guys.

I'm not really going for a budget build, it's not the money, it's just that I don't need much for a daily driver and I prefer the stock look. All to often when you ask for a build folks say "stroke it!", "aluminum heads", "square and deck the block", etc and that's just more than I need. I know that 383's have limited piston choices so if I could find a good piston/cam combo to use with the stock heads I should be good. Sounds like the 2315's are probably the way to go.

For what you listed, drivability and reliability sound pretty important.
I would highly recommend one of the new self tuning EFI systems that controls ignition timing, and a in-take fuel pump.
The EFI makes intake selection less critical. Single plane or dual plane will work. Since your looking at near stock power, the stock intake could work, but it is heavy and you will want to block the exhaust heat crossover.
Replacement heads like 440 Source Stealth or Edelbrock E-Street are a good value when compared to the cost of totally rebuilding the original heads.
Again they are lighter, and have no exhaust heat crossover, keeping the intake cooler. The Sniper and FiTech EFI have the electronics in the throttle bodies, and you don't want a bunch of heat getting to the electronics in the throttle bodies.
If you stay with stock iron heads, You can have them rebuilt with the larger valves and hardened seats. have the machine shop open the bowls below the valve seats.
Pistons, likely KB Flat tops. I haven't looked in awhile to see what is avaliable in a long time.
ARP Rod bolts and re-sized / checked connecting rods
Crank grind/polish as needed, balanced rotating assembly, and bearings to match the crank undersize if any?
The springs on the aftermarket heads are good for a mild hydraulic cam and stock rocker arms.
If using the stock heads, you will need new springs for any performance cam.
Cam, likely something around 220 degrees at 0.050"
The Hughes HE2024BL cam 224/224 @ 0.050" duration, 0.503"/0.518" lift would be a decent choice.
Degree in the camshaft per spec.
I would measure for correct pushrod length, and use a stronger than stock pushrods, but the stock pushrods will likely work, but no way of telling what the lifter pre-load will be without checking it first,
Fel-Pro KS2110 Gasket kit has just about all the gaskets except the valley tray.
The Viton rear main seal seems to seal better for me, but that adds about $25.
Oiling system can be pretty stock. A larger Hemi style oil pan with matching pickup will add oil capacity
The Jegs Windage tray / oil pan gasket is a nice addition too.
Likely should replace the crank damper if it is the stock 50 year old one.
If going EFI, you may need a fuel pump block off plate if the kit does not have one?
Stock cooling with 180-degree thermostat should be fine if the radiator is in decent condition
Stock Alternator should be upgraded, even stock (no EFI) the headlights go dim at idle.
Headers would be a performance improvement, but exhaust manifolds will likely be less hassle. Dual 2-1/4" or 2-1/2" exhaust is fine.

something to think about if this is a numbers matching block is decking. decking will remove the build date and other numbers. the 383 I worked on was numbers matching and I wanted to clean the deck up but that would have removed those numbers. fortunately it didn't come to that, and fortunately those 8519 gaskets are somewhat forgiving. the original heads to this engine were really screwed up. bad valves, sunken seats, old springs; definitely some money to repair. I had a decent set of heads off a running engine and gave him and it worked well. I was concerned about a non-quench little over 9:1 engine but it seems to work fine on pump gas. the 2315 pistons are a simple choice that worked out well. the summit 6400 cam was basically an economics choice and is close to a stock cam but with a tighter LSA; good low and mid-range power. i'm sure there are other profiles out there that would work fine too. I hadn't worked on a single point distributor in decades but basically cleaned it up, new points/condenser, put a short/heavy limiter spring in it with a little lighter primary spring. set it up for 20 degrees in the distributor and 15 on the crank. runs flawlessly. there wasn't any money for plug wires so I dug out an old set of taylor solid core wires I made for one of my 440s a couple of decades, stuck'em on, no issues. the carb was original to the car and was just plain awful. I thought serious about throwing it away but because it had the original tag and date codes I spent a bunch of hours on it. as long as the shafts aren't wore out they're fixable. long story short, it starts and runs better than new and there ain't no way on the planet i'd throw away $1000-$1500 on some jive ass '80's technology fuel injection for a driver. neither would I blow $1000-$2000 on alum cylinder heads for a cruiser. he!!, you could do the engine for that wasted money!!!!!!!!!! there's one thing all these car websites are good for;...blowing somebody else's money. again, keep it simple and go another 93k.

A counterpoint to Lews argument for not spending money on things like EFI or new heads is.......

It is afterall a “hobby”..... and some people just want that stuff.

I know for me, points ignition in something thats going to supposedly be used as not just a driver..... but almost a daily driver...... I’d be looking to make it as maintenance/hassle free as possible....... so, no points for me thanks.

I like the idea of some modern upgrades.

Necessary? Nope.
Just depends on what you’re looking for.

One of my friends has a 71 Charger R/T.
It was an auto car, and last year he spent a big pile of $$$ on it converting it over to a 6 speed manual.
Wasn’t at all necessary........ but that’s what he wanted.

Oil is much better than back in the 60s-70s and EFI eliminates the fuel wash on start up. Thinner rings, better surface finishes, better combustion control, etc. These ARE the good old days.

Thanks to everyone for the thoughts and examples of engine builds. I think I'll stick with the KISS method as some have mentioned.

as far as cams go, don't let anyone talk you into some kind of "Saturday night/ root beer stand idle" camshaft. if you have any doubts or don't understand a particular cam then just revert back to a stock type profile. over camming a 383 really ups the misery index.

This is true. The manual tranny does help a little.

Well damn.......even at my age something new comes along that I’ve never heard of.....

What exactly is a “Saturday night/ root beer stand idle”. ??? Ya got me there! LOL

DA lump, DA lump, DA lump, DA lump [and on and on]

One of my friends used to refer to the old 509 cam as......

“The baddest cam at the drive in”

Back in the 80s, the Comp Cams ads described the 292 Magnum the same way. Guess which cam I bought?

Things have changed over time, but to Lew's point there was a time when what it sounded like at idle or rolling through a parking lot at 1500 rpm was everything. I've been involved with a few builds that that was the criteria. Although not necessarily my cup of tea, they did sound incredible. One was a tubbed S-10. Just a 350 Chevy, but it had the "extra loose" timing gear set (verses a timing chain) along with a slow ramp huge duration roundy-roundy cam, and exhaust out in front of the rear tires. He fired that baby up, a crowd of people would migrate to see what was making the noise. The sound was impressive. The car's sound was an attraction.

Or....... what’s old is new again?

Hence...... the birth of the Thumpr, Rattler, Bootlegger cams(for when you’re out on a Saturday night at the root beer stand. Must be the local A&W)