anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger

I am old school so still love my 440,s. I also love the new Challengers. I see a lot of the 2008-2010's around pretty cheap. I have a few 440's kicking around. I am not worried about the mechanical part of fitting it in. I am worried about the stock Challenger running without been hooked to a motor. easy enough to wire up the old 440 to start and charge etc. independent of the Challenger wiring. I will admit I know nothing about new fuel injection and new car electronics.
Will one of these new Challengers even run without the 5.7 in it.
Anybody do this reverse mod? I have been accused of been AS* backwards lots of time, so nothing new.
Thanks

The rest of the electronics will be looking for the engine controller. You would have to find a way to make it think it was still running the engine.

The gains to be had from a 440 swap would be off idle low end torque.

The losses to be had from such a swap would be everything except off idle low end torque.

As much as I love my 440s I have decided that the Imperial's 440 is the last old motor I'm building. The only reason I didn't go Gen 3 on this build was the desire for 500+ lb/ft below 3000 rpm.
There is simply too much to be gained from using 50 years newer technology.

I agree with feets, there's nothing to be gained by this. But if you insist on a swap I would suggest studying the drag pak cars that came out back then make your own toy.

It would be an upgrade to a V6 modern Challenger, but modern Hemi Challengers could easily be modified to make more power than even a stout 440 can put out. And to do a swap would need a fuel injection system and ignition system that could be made compatible with the cars electrical system. It would be cool to see someone do it though!

Unless you are building a tube chassis race car I would say it's a total waste of time and money. I have been accused of that a few times though so follow your dreams.

The front springs will need some serious upgrading to deal with 800lbs of cast iron.

Do you live where they check emissions controls? You'd have a fun time making a 440 compliant to the current standards.

I think its a pretty cool idea for more of a hot rod since old iron anymore is getting to be pretty pricey anymore, for me I would keep it simple since I already have a couple of carbed 500+ cu in. big blocks (love the simplicity and Torque!) and the modern trans tunnels are fairly large to install an overdrive if a person wants to got that way then you have a more modern suspension. The issue of the electronics would be the tough part for me to figure out.

Here in Las Vegas with the emissions testing crap there wouldn't be anyway for you to legally license this for highway use unfortunately.

Here's an idea. Just an idea.
I considered this many moons ago, and not just for emissions reasons.
What about running the engine on propane at idle and low load ? Some kind of manual switching
between propane and gasoline. You would only carry a small propane tank, not big enough
to drive 300 miles (unless that's what you truly want).
Running on propane is virtually zero emissions.

Actually, my original idea was to run a Six-Pack deal, with the center "carb" running on propane.

Without really thinking about it much, I kinda like the idea of down grading a late model. The first thing you'll need to do is come up with a catchy term for it. New tech in old cars is restomod, what are we gonna call this? DevoMod maybe. Bonus points if you get the reference.

If the aesthetic here is an embracing of the modern body while rejecting the technology then I think the answer to the CAN bus problem is give it a complete lobotomy. When you rip out the engine controller, rip out the trans controller, body controller, digital dash and whatever the hell else is tied it. Drop in a 727, auto meter gauges and build a wire harness like you would to rewire an old car. Hooking up the air bags would probably be the biggest "fight the electronics" issue. On the emissions side, your local dictatorship may vary but here in PA if you run it less than 5,000 miles per year it's completely exempt from emission testing regardless of model year.

Last reply is the path of least resistance, and the Devo reference is priceless.

Gut all the electronics out, throw the abs systems and safety equipment in the garbage and start over.

Wire the windows as shown on page 10 of the little manual my cohorts and I wrote, using p5155318 and 19 door modules.

https://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/300/312/312-P5155775.pdf

You need to have "smart glass" so the windows will seal when the door is opened and closed.

I'd put a used NASCAR small block in one before I did a 440.

I like the idea of old in the new. A 440 and 727 in a newer Challenger is fine in my book. Save you thousands over doing up an original plus any collision shop can fix the modern Challenger. You'd have to eliminate all the modern electronics and wire up all your instrumentation with aftermarket gauges. would be a lot of work replacing new tech with old but not impossible. I spoke to a gent at the dragstrip in 2019 who had a 2015 Camaro with old skool carbureted small block and Turbo 350. Yes it was a drag only car but looked nice and he said it wouldn't be a stretch to make it street legal. The car was a stolen recovered insurance buy missing its engine and trans but the body was still like new. Said it was much less $$ to go this route than an actual pre 70 Camaro.

I asked this question about a year or two after the new Challenger came out.

I was voted off the island, booed off the stage and my parents marital status during my birth was put into question.

I still think it would be cool if someone could pull it off.

I like old school but I don't see the point. Why go 440 when there's there's so many new hemi choices now that make more power, better mileage, better running..

Since you already have the engines and say you can get the car for a good price if you want it just go for it. DOn't need much to get an old engine running and whatever systems in the car are looking for inputs that no longer exist remove them.

Smart glass is stupid. The only explanation I've ever heard for it is to make the glass seal better. The frameless windows on my 45 year old cars still seal just fine so not buying that one. Ever try opening one when it's got a coating of ice on it and the window won't go down?

end tangent.

Count me in the "I think it would be cool" group. I gave passing thought to it several years ago and there seem to be more early models popping up every day w/ bad engines for cheap. Modern Hemi's are cool and the power you can make with them is almost unbelievable BUT it's kinda hard to beat the cool factor of a tunnel ram and 2-4's sticking out of the hood, be it a SB or a BB. Personally, I don't think it would be that hard. As said, rip out the new electronics and go to town. I'm sure that if you were so inclined, you could even have functional a/c, ps, and pb.



Tim

Sell the spare parts and build a big inch G3 Hemi. Inches are inches, only the modern ones will breathe much cheaper. Fitment will be much easier. Aftermarket support will be available.Why try to re-invent the already new and improved wheel?(2cents)

I think I'd want to know if the front suspension could handle the additional weight. Then again, if you got rid of all the computers and wiring, maybe there wouldn't be much weight difference.

Then the next deal would be the brake system. You will need to reroute all the brake lines to eliminate the computer controlled anti lock brake system currently on the car. Its not like the early days when you just bypassed the thing above the rear end and ran a single line to the rear axle. you get to start at the master cylinder and work from there. My concern would be if these massive brakes will work without all the computer assist.
Beyond that, everything electrical inside the car has to be changed to old school. You might want to look at a flood car, clean up the body, trash everything inside of it, and build from there.
Then, as long as you can drive it where you don't need to pass any kind of vehicle inspection or emission testing you might be OK, because it would never pass the visual inspection, let along an actual emission test.

Of course, when you do this, we will all want to watch the process in pictures. Then we will be able to decide if we want to put this muck work into a project like this. Gene

I suspect that the brakes would work the same, they just wouldn't have the anti-lock feature. They are still vacuum assisted and hydraulically operated, right?

a) because you can

b) some of us have some amount of objection to the wheel being digital

c) a clean current gen body is easier and likely cheaper to find than an old one

d) was the OP in Colorado when "inspired"?

e) it would be the only one at SEMA

f) many of the above

Lots of good points here.

A 440 is a big heavy chunk of metal but where there's a will.... Clearly not an aftermarket off the shelf fix but maybe talk to AlterKation and see what they think. I'm thinking maybe autocross parts or transplant springs from a [diesel] truck. Also raises the question of how much real estate you've got under the hood. If you could shoe horn an aluminum block G2 Hemi in there that would probably solve the weight problem. It wouldn't have the curb appeal of an RB but a stroked 360 LA would be smaller and lighter and not exactly anemic if built right.

I don't think brakes would be a major problem. If you were doing a 50 yr old Challenger you'd likely end up running all new lines away. Somebody else made the point that it's still just a hydro system and see also: Wildwood. Pretty sure their typical restomod formula is big rotors, big calipers, generic booster, no electronic voodoo.

As for street legal, clearly forget about it if you're California or NJ or a lot of other places. I think you'd be ok from a vehicle safety inspection perspective - lights, horns, wipers, tires, brakes, exhaust. I am positive that PA gives you a pass on the emissions based on mileage since last test - I see the exempt stickers on late model stuff routinely.

So far I'm not hearing a good reason not to or how it isn't doable.

While its not my cup of tea it for sure could be done. Just make sure it is s healthy 440 because the 300HP V6 with the 8 speed will give a stockfish one a good run lol.

You could probably get enough information to the computer to get crap to work. It needs engine RPM, coolant temp, and vehicle speed to make lots of things work. You will never get a check engine light off but I bet you can bring life to most of the modern stuff that makes these new cars tick(HVAC, smart windows, gauges, etc).

The smart window is smart, I have never ridden in an older vehicle with frameless windows that didn't make some kind of noise at the seams. Most of our old cars are to loud to hear or we have to have the windows down to we don't get asphyxiated so we never hear the noise lol. The seal is payable enough that the door will open just fine with a dead battery. It won't close well but you can open it so you can get either end open for jumper cables.

I also wouldn't worry about the weight of the "mighty 440" because I am sure a hellcat engine and trans in full dress weighs more, probably a lot more.

WOW Thanks for all the input guys. I keep saying this is my last car (65 Satellite AFX clone) But I just had a brain fart that there is a lot of milaged out 2008-2010's around and the value of them if the tranny or motor is gone puts them close to scrap or part out mode. Not interested in a drag car. Been there done that. Just like having a project on the go. I have seen a lot of the little 3.6- V6's that can put an old 383 or even some 440's on the trailer. It was just an idea I had to throw it out there to see how much of a problem the electronics would be. Also an economical way to maybe land a new style Challenger. Been retired for 16 years now so car money is I might say running on empty. A 340 or even a way cheaper 318 would be easier, as would building just for drag racing. Emissions up in my part are not a factor. Thanks for all the input. I will be watching for more.

Don't get me going on the smart glass. My 2010 Challenger is my daily driver, and has to live outside. Winter is fun when the glass is froze and I can't get in the car. Fortunately, I have a 2011 Dakota 4WD to fall back on. At least when it freezes, I can get in it the old fashioned way by prying open the frozen doors with a rag-wrapped screwdriver...

they are heavy cars. i have a couple 300's one 5.7 and one 6.1 the 5.7 is a little over 4400lbs thats a bunch of weight to start off with.

gut the whole car of its electronics and extra weight, put a solid axle in it and it would be a ton of fun, not a cheap project though.

I just sold my 2010 Challenger SE V6 six months ago with 346,000 miles on the clock. It was in VERY good shape. I also have a 413 big block sitting in my garage. I'd actually thought about dropping in the big block... for about three seconds, then good sense came to me. In my state, man there's just no way to get this car inspected after that. In fact, I'd have to be an electrical engineer to get the car with all of it's systems running, gauges, heater, lights, wipers. All of that stuff goes though some kind of computer and they all talk to each other. I just said "to heck with it" and sold the car.

Greg

I like the idea. With all the emission stuff and what not I think it will be hard to make legal for the road and is only going to get worse in the future. I like the idea of it for a race car though. I have a nice supply of engines and trans that hopefully will last me a life time of racing. It would probably be easier and cheaper to find a new challenger body/car to convert into a race car than buy an muscle car era and fix all the rust, etc.

I used to own a Lexus SC 300 which I thought was one of the best looking cars ever. Those cars are fairly cheap now since they are so expensive to repair so I've thought about buying one with a blown head gasket and turning it into a race car with a big block Mopar under the hood. It would be a huge project though and I just can't bring myself to pulling the trigger. I think a 440 in a new Challenger would be the same type of project. You would spend a ton of time and money to get it sorted out but I guess you would be the only one around. Starting with a drag pack car would be easier since they have already done most of the mods for you but of course, those are spendy.

My first inclination is to dismiss this idea for being counterproductive. A 5.7 Hemi will outperform a stock 440 in acceleration, mileage and durability. It weighs less.
Then I started thinking about all of those V6 Challengers out there. An aluminum headed 440 with aluminum intake and a Sniper fuel injection setup could be pretty cool. You'd have more power than the 5.7, gobs more torque and it would be an engine that you could fix yourself. The Interior wouldn't need to be gone through, the body should be in better shape and the suspension gives a nicer ride than any old rusty musclecar. In short, the "buy-in" of $5-7000 gets you a pretty good starting point. People put aftermarket gauges in old cars so that isn't really an obstacle. Heating and A/C would pose some problems but a crafty guy should be able to devise something from Classic Auto Air or Vintage Air.
No anti-lock brakes? So what? Old cars don't have them and people survived without them.
The real hurdle is emission testing. Technically, it is against Federal law to alter or remove the OEM emission equipment. It makes no difference if a state does no inspection or emission testing, it is still illegal to remove the stuff. I get it though, if they don't check, it is highly unlikely that a Federal agent is going to apprehend a guy with a 2009 440 Challenger.

Putting a 440 in a new car would be like force feeding an entire prime rib to a Vegan.

Not good for the person & a sad, wasteful use of the prime rib.

Just for grins I surfed around Copart the other day. Found at least (3) flood cars listed with no reserve. Might get bid up for the parts value, might be worth watching just to see how high they go. One from SC which is likely a salt water flood and a couple from Houston which should be fresh water. I think I'd avoid the salt water ones.

As for title / registration headaches: going from salvage to reconstructed seems to be pretty routine in most places, starting with a flood branded title could be a non starter as that's supposed to mean unrepairable and for parts only. Reconstructed meas different things in different states. In PA it mostly means "safe to operate", other places might expect as delivered systems to be functioning - air bags being the big headache there. If I get bored / curious later I'll look at the DMV regs about "street rod" titles as that could be a loop hole big enough to drive through.

Pa street rod title will be no good since it's for 1948 and earlier vehicles.
however, the "collector" title may be an alternative. it seems to have a few loopholes you may be able to take advantage of.

Suspension holding the weight is easy. Once the junk you want to remove is gone. The brakes with the correct bore master cylinder, piece of cake. Weight? No issue. I've seen them below 3200 with stock appearing interior, power windows, ect. Again remove junk you dont need. Air bags extra stereo, A/C, power steering, etc. The windows. Now there's an issue. Making them work without the BCM can be done . But it's not cheap. The earlier models window are a little easier.
Doug

Viper V10 and manual transmission would be cool as well.

Giving this some thought, maybe a flood car wouldn't be the way to go. It would have to be inspected in order to be put back on the road. That may be a deal killer. Buying a cheap used car would probably provide less issues. A plain Jane stripped version would probably be best, less stuff to alter. Anything electrical on the car would need to be redesigned it get away from the body computer because it all would be security coded to everything else. I think everything after 2005 was all security coded and everything had to match up to work. Gene

This or any type of safety inspection required to register the vehicle could easily derail the whole project.

In some places in the US, when significantly mis-matched eras of chassis and engine are put together, some jurisdictions will make everything be compliant to the newest year of the combination.

Is the below 3200 with aftermarket front and rear suspension and mounting vs something based off using oem front and rear cradles?

Also including some form of roll cage?

I've looked a bit on the web for info on this haven't seen any particular detailed info for a new challenger with extreme weight reduction, other than the Drag Pak style cars, which I think are more than 3200 (not sure though).

Any recommendations for racers to follow who have done this or other examples on the web?

Thanks!

V6 car would be excellent candidate as well as stolen recovered and fresh water flood. Body and paint work is incredibly expensive and a regular car guy cannot get pro results. Taking a Mint newer challenger the paint and body is done. The rest of the stuff- replacing new tech with old, fabbing mounts oil pan and exh etc can be done by handi car guy. Wont be cheap but will be cheaper than doing a classic. Using alum heads and WP housing sheds a lot of weight from the classic 440. And again any collision shop can tend to body repair and oem body part pipeline exists. Why is it OK to put modern Skinny jean, man bun, latte sipping save the world by posting from their iphone oversize wheels on an old classic but not ok to put old iron in modern car?

Hey now, not everyone with larger diameter wheels on their classic has a man bun. That is just wrong, man!

Did not intend to insult! Just wanted to mention other modern things in addition to large wheels that are unmistakably 2015 and later.

Is the below 3200 with aftermarket front and rear suspension and mounting vs something based off using oem front and rear cradles?

Also including some form of roll cage?

I've looked a bit on the web for info on this haven't seen any particular detailed info for a new challenger with extreme weight reduction, other than the Drag Pak style cars, which I think are more than 3200 (not sure though).

Any recommendations for racers to follow who have done this or other examples on the web?

Thanks! [/quote

Stock eliminator style car. Aftermarket frt strut, 8 3/4 solid axle with Drag Pac 4 link, with aluminum center, 6.1 with 904, chrome moly roll bar, light brakes.
Doug

But funny as heck!

Size-wise a 440 would fit with ease you can run an overdrive transmission because there's plenty of tunnel room . Basic Fab skills would mount the motor, the drive shaft might be a little challenging, but if you went to solid axle that would solve that problem. It would be a cool project.

Except for that man bun wearing liberal EPA emissions testing Nazi makes you take it to have it tested! Even though you'll only drive it maybe a thousand miles or 2000 miles a year.

V10nacuda said: "Except for that man bun wearing liberal EPA emissions testing Nazi makes you take it to have it tested! Even though you'll only drive it maybe a thousand miles or 2000 miles a year."

I about spit out then choked on my coffee from laughter with that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well done sir.

a "man bun" will never be in my hair do style.........

The Drag Pak attached has 318 in it built for Super Stock. It is the only combination of its kind that I am aware of. This car was originally built by Doug Duell and was the first "Drag Pak" in competition. He took a street V6 car and converted it to a Drag Pak car because the Drag Pak's from the factory were not available yet. He ran a 5.7 hemi. The Ross family purchased it from Duell. Putting a SBM in a Drag Pak isn't that unusual since the first Drag Pak's that came out in 2009 had a 360 as an engine option. Putting a BBM in late model Challenger would be different. The only time I remember seeing something similar was in one of the Mopar magazines. There was a gentlemen who swapped a Gen 2 426 hemi into a late model Challenger. It looked like a retro race car, but I can't find a picture of it.

Bondo Bob has a "Color Me Gone" Drag Pack.

He has put a Gen 2 Hemi in it. LOL, he says the valve covers will come off but it looks really tight.

However last time I saw he had the Hemi for sale and I think was going with a small block, R3/W9/W8 or an R5/P7 can't remember for sure.

His user name on Facebook is Bondo Bob and I think anyone can see his home page and photos of the car.

There you go. You beat me to it. The name of the car finally came to me a little while ago and was coming on here to post it. Here is a picture of the Challenger and it's engine compartment. Thanks for sharing where it is now.

Why stop at a 440 why not put in a 572 Blown Hemi?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujztm5hV1Bs

Well I see this post stirred up a lot of interest. I probably will never do it. I will still keep an eye on a little V6 cheap challenger kicking around. Bondo Bob has the answer to it fitting in the post above. Great stuff and in the Color Me gone Trim Love it. There is another post as well. The orange Challenger. Make the power train work is the easy part for me. Its things like not been able to drive it as some electrons crap is not hooked up. Electronics are my down fall in all this.
So thanks for all the great input Guys. About the man bun Heck im 72 and bald as babies bum so that is not a factor
Ron