BB head flow?

Comparing bone stock 88 cc 452 big block heads to bone stock, out of the box edelbrock 88 ccrpm heads, does anyone know the flow numbers stock vs. stock? Wondering if there would be much gain going from bone stock 452 heads to bolting on a set of bone stock RPM heads..again, both 88 cc..

there was a thread way back on this & the concensus was that just iron to alum was nothing earthshattering in itself. the eddys would have better ports & I would think a better combustion chamber tho that might be minimal & the alum would support a higher octane. You might Google Steve Dulcichs' porting articles cuz iirc he had info/caveats on them.

Depends on the rest of the combo.

The rest of the combo would stay the same. im saying head swap only, what the increase would be, if any.. Its in a 1972 dart swinger. 9.4:1 440(TRW-2355 pistons), 284/484 MP cam installed 4 degrees advanced, Holley street dominator intake with 1050 cfm 4 bbl., 1 7/7 fenderwell headers, electronic ignition at 20 initial, 34 total. The psitons have a compression height of 2 061. and currently bone stock 88cc 452 heads..How much increase would i be looking at by swapping the bone stock 452 heads for bone stock 88cc edelbrock RPM heads?

What?

There are anecdotal sayings that aluminum will support higher compression, but the only data I have seen doesn't necessarily support that.

Years ago one of the hot rod magazines did a dyno test to compare iron vs aluminum heads. They got one of each from the same manufacturer that were as identical as possible.

They tested for heat related differences primarily, they found nothing outside the margin or error with either head and multiple coolant temps.

When it came to compression tolerance the engine tested was almost 11:1 and showed no signs of detonation with either head setup and they were running 91 octane.

Now this was a dyno test only, who knows how it would act on the street.

Dyno test article

I'm not a head porter, and I do not have a flow bench, but have seen a lot of info from professionals. Your looking at probably 220 - 225 cfm on a well prepped stock head with a good valve grind, and probably 265 - 270 on the Eddy's at your max. lift

Not sure why you would choose an open chamber aftermarket head when for the same or less money you could get a closed chamber head, and get both a bump in compression ratio while also getting good quench distance.

Putting the 88cc RPM on that combo would be a mistake.

Use the 84cc head...... should be worth 40-50hp over a stock 452 on that combo.

Save yourself a little $$$, and just buy the E streets.

That is a very mild combo that you have so I agree with Dwayne, buy the closed chamber E streets and you'll pick up some power. Could be 40 to 50 as he says, could be a little more if you gasket match the heads and the intake.

I was asking because these RPM's i speak of are a used set at a really good price and ready to bolt on and go..Thats the only reason i was looking at these open chambered heads. I guess i will wait and get closed chambers when i can afford it. Whenever i DO get to buy a set, the only thing i will have done to them for a while will be to have them checked by a machine shop before installing them...no port work or anything for a while, so THATS why i want the best bang for the buck when it comes to choosing an aluminum head.. It would be different if i could buy new heads AND have them ported and all right at the start, but it would be a good while after buying them that i would be able to port them, so again, whichever head i buy, i want it to be the best one to bolt on as they come, besides being checked out. So, with my combo, what head would be the 'ONE'? I want something that doesnt need different rocker arms or this and that..

I would go with the ones Dwayne suggested (he's the man on this stuff). You'll certainly feel 40-50 HP. The ones in front of you might be a killer deal but if there is no gain or even a loss then you wont be happy (or save the killer deal ones for a future build with the right pistons).

Why do you think the open chamber is such a good deal? Save your money and by the right heads.

I will save for the better heads. Thanks!

The top end of any motor is the stopper or the best way to make more power with little heads, carb, intake and exhaust along with the cam is to make all of them bigger to flow more air and fuel
You can make 500 HP with the correct good stock type heads and after market intake, carb, cam and exhaust on pump gas pretty easy
With better heads and the same other parts you can add from 20 to 100 HP more

I just figured those RPM heads would flow better out of the box than the stocks..

We used a pair of used bone stock 88cc Eddy heads on a 440. True 10.0-1, 557 Mopar solid, headers, old Weind 2×4 w /2 Eddy 600, 410 gear, good converter. All stock street 65 Belvedere minus exhaust with 9×28 slick, 11.30s@115

something I've noticed in the stock vs edelbrock head thing is that the edelbrock does seem to burn a little better. in my case a little easier to set the carbs up for a clean burn. I don't know exactly why; maybe the chamber , maybe angle plug, or maybe the way the air exits the intake port? as far as power goes my comparison is between a set of stage V's fast68plymouth did vs 84cc edelbrocks, with just me cleaning the boogers up in the intake ports in the edelbrocks, good quench both times, not a big difference in power between the two heads. the iron heads were easier to set up the rocker gear vs edelbrock using off the shelf parts. the edelbrock had much better retainer to seal clearance for higher lifts. the 88cc edelbrock is for quench dome pistons. they will run with a flat top piston but would work better with quench domes. the edelbrock should give a very noticeable power increase over a stock '452.

I just wanted to highlight that Lews ported stage v’s are a huge step up from a set of untouched 452’s...... so it’s expected that there would be very little difference in power between them and a set of RPM’s.

Ok, so if the stave V's are a big step up from untouched 452's AND the stage V's are similar in power to the RPM's, then why wouldn't those RPM's help me muchbeing they ARE a big step up from 452's? Just asking to learn..

the rpm's will help your performance. just use the 84cc head. my guess would be in the 40hp range increase, BUT pay careful attention to rocker and push rod geometry with the rpms.

I think im going to wait and get the E-streets instead because of the valve train mess. These RPM's were used and at a good price and ready to bolt on, so I was curious, but sounds like not the right head for what I want. I do want to save for a set but would like recommendations on which set..I know a few on here said the edelbrock E-streets, but is that the final recommendation because there are the stealths, trick flows, edelbrocks, etc..Like I said, I want the best bang for the buck as far as straight out of the box with no porting..just checking them out and corrected at the machine shop if needed..

As I said already....... a 40-50hp gain.
That’s about a 13% increase in output by simply installing a street replacement style head.

That is a big step up on that type of build.

how much top end power was lost by advancing the cam an additional four degrees? i'd say a loss of 300-500 useable rpm.

Of course if the cam wasn’t degreed in....... it could be 4deg advanced from anywhere.

As far as the “best bang for the buck” in terms of cylinder heads goes....... it really depends on what the end game is.

If that’s a 600hp + stroker, then it’s TF240’s.
If you’re just trying for a reliable 500+/- hp 440 on pump gas, then Ede heads(or the Ede copycats) will get you there for less $$.

I degreed it in with a degree wheel.

Has anybody asked the OP what sort of $ he's willing to put out for a cylinder head upgrade? I've always found the money factor to be a good reality check against expectations... even if I've chosen to ignore it.

So...... in at 104?

Its been 17 years ago, but yes, i believe it was 104 and i did it because of the advice given on this site at the time. Obviously there are better cams out there and i may change it with time also. Wondering if i would be further ahead to send you my 452's to port rather than using stock new aluminum heads? Would that get me more power for the money spent? l would hate to lose the weight savings of the aluminum but if i would get more this way then thats an idea too!

I think he completely misunderstood your previous comment.

No, i understand..why do you say that?

"I just wanted to highlight that Lews ported stage v’s are a huge step up from a set of untouched 452’s...... so it’s expected that there would be very little difference in power between them and a set of RPM’s"

This

That’s not likely.
By the time the heads have been disassembled, cleaned, seats touched up, valves refaced, parts cleaned, reassembled....... plus shipping both ways....... you’ve got a few hundred $$$ before any porting has even been done.

I tell people all the time....... if you’re not doing something where there are rules dictating that stock heads need to be used....... you’re isually ahead using aftermarket heads.

I’m happy to work on the stock heads for those customers who have to use them...... but they really shouldn’t be someone’s first choice...... if “bang for the buck” is part of the selection criteria...... and you’re not going to do the porting yourself.

Speaking of which...... that’s the best bang for the buck........ bowl blend your own heads.

I would rather take advantage of the weight savings with new aluminum heads anyways, so that sounds good!

I've always felt the greatest advantage to alum heads was their ability to be repaired.

Stock heads will work pretty good in the right hands. Heck I ran 9.80's with a set of ported 906 heads back in the 1980's with super stock springs, TRW pistons, stock rods, and a stock crank. Would I use them in a build today? Heck no even though I still have that set of heads sitting in my shop on a shelf.

There is no stock OEM head that will flow the same as a good new after market bolt on replacement head, I've had many stock heads flowed on different benches and then had Eddy and 440 Source heads out of the box flowed on the same benches and the new head out flow all of them, including the stock M.W. "286" 1962/63 castings
I had a set of 906 heads ported and polished and upgraded on the valve sizes to 2.14 and 1.81, they flowed 266 CFM at .700 lift. I bought a set of Eddy RPM that Modern Cylinder heads CNC ported and they flowed 310 CFM on the same bench
My old pump gas Duster ran a best ET of 10.69 at 124.6 MPH with the iron heads and just changing the heads(both sets had 84.0 CC combustion chambers) the car ran 10.49 ET at 127.5 MPH
I ended up replacing the RPM heads and six pack with a set of Indy SR with M.W. ports and a 400-3 intake with a Holley 1050 CFM Dominator, that let the car run a best of 9.993 ET at 134.* MPH through the complete exhaust system with the air cleaner on
More air and fuel makes more power
My message is to buy the best heads you can the first time

I need to be making a choice soon as I will have the money. I was just reading on the 440 source web site on their stealth heads and how good they supposedly flow AND the price is right.. Are those heads as good as they claim they are? What do you guys think? I wont ever stroke this engine, it will remain a .030 over 446. I want to make as much power as I can with it remaining a 446 with the flat top pistons. So, Fast 68 and the rest, would your pick still be the E-streets or what about the stealths? Like I said, I want the best flowing out of the box heads. maybe later down the road I would be able to send them to you fast69 for some porting, but for now they will be used out of the box, besides checking over when I get them..Oh, also, I am NOT against installing a better cam while im at it, so I could use advice on that also!

I have had 4 sets of 440source heads on my flowbench and they max out a 267cfm@.700 lift. If you want a nicer set of heads that are reasonable and both at Jegs or Summit with a coupon check out ProMax heads. A friend of mine bought a set of their small block heads and the quality was so much nicer than 440source or Edelbrock heads.

Hands down, the “best” of the std port/std port height ootb heads are the Trick Flows.

Everything else is a pretty big step behind that.

Between the Ede, Sidewinder, ProMaxx, Speedmaster, Stealth heads...... ootb..... the Stealths flow the least.
Sure, they can easily be tweaked for improvements....... but so can the others.

The Ede heads come with better hardware than the copycats.

My preference for all of those heads is the Ede head.
I have more faith in the integrity of the USA made casting vs the import casting, and I trust the hardware.

If you can swing the $$$$...... get the TF’s.

Dont know if i could swing the TF's..I was reading some old thread where you posted flow numbers and the E-street was dead last, so that kind of bums be out on the edelbrocks..What needs to be done to the stealths to make them trustable and reliable?

Dont know if i could swing the TF's..I was reading some old thread where you posted flow numbers and the E-street was dead last, so that kind of bums be out on the edelbrocks..What needs to be done to the stealths to make them trustable and reliable? [/quote]
When it comes to saving money on Hi Po or race parts it is always better to buy good parts to start with than trying to save money by purchasing cheaper parts intending to spend money on them to make them better later
I have made that mistake more than once, some lessons come easy, some don't
If I was you I would buy the T.F. 240 now and not worry about stepping them up later

I'm a little confused. What exactly is your goal? Sounds like the criteria is the highest flowing head. Consider starting with a goal for the car. What does it run now? What do you want it to run, and what is your budget? You cannot pick the appropriate head flow/$ in a vacuum of everything else. Here is the way it generally works: the more you spend on the heads, the more they will flow.

Depending on your current performance/power, any more flow above what the Eddys have might simply be diminishing returns.

I didn't realize how much more the TF's were than the eddies and stealths until I got to looking last night. The e-streets and stealths aren't too far apart in price and THATS the price range I will be looking at, unless I were to stumble upon some used TF's at a deal. I just cant swing the money for the TF's due to having family to care for and all. So I guess I should say, with an eddie/stealth budget, what would be the best flowing..but after reading Dwaynes chart on another post, it looks like the stealths, but im not the expert so I will keep listening here.and I know there are other heads in that price range too. Also, what are the 'super stealths'? I did not see these on the 440 source website...remember also, I am willing to change the cam for a better one too.

Best deal I got was with Marsh sidewinder's..I had my RB 906 heads with mild pocket porting ,swapped them for otb sidewinders ....The motor was tuned as best it would run..11.8... I bolted on the Sidwinders with no change in tuning and picked up 2 tenths.. after dialing in got 11.3..

What kind of HP and Torque increase would that be? That sounds like quite a bit!

If you’re leaning towards the Stealths because of the cost that’s fine....... but you’re kidding yourself if you think they’re the best flowing of that variety of head.

They’ll still be a nice step up from untouched 452’s.
If those are what your budget allows....... just get ‘em. Lots of people have...... and are happy with them.

On my bench an ootb Stealth is usually in the mid-250’s intake/mid-170’s exhaust @.500 lift.

Ootb(zero porting) Sidewinders/Speedmasters are basically the same.

346/902/452 heads with 2.14/1.81 valves, with a good valve job and the bowls & pinch done by someone who knows what they’re doing..... also basically the same.

The Stupid Stealths are no long made, they use a special offset intake rocker arm, they were supposed to be a stock appearing race type head & they missed the mark.I have them on my 512 low deck 68 Charger, after a lot of work they flow about the same as the Trick Flow 240.

Not the money, its the chart you posted in an old thread I found, it showed the stealths were second best flowing after the trick flows and the e-street dead last in flow..I will look for that thread again and post it back here.

Still seems to be a mi$$ing piece of this puzzle...

The reason I bring this up is because the cost of changing may be more than just the heads themselves. Sometimes other things are required, such as:
- new head bolts
- different length pushrods
- different hold-down hardware for rocker arm shafts

It all adds up quickly, and what you thought you could do the switch for ends up being short by hundreds of dollars.

Just a friendly Public Service Announcement from the "Been There, Done That, Still Paying Down The Visa Card Bill" Club

Post a link if you find it.

It can’t be a very old post..... the TF’s have only been out for a few years.

Here’s a few old posts.....
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1895468/1.html

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2344771/1.html

And of course:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2174495/1.html

Sorry fast, you didnt post it, i got screwed up with my names with all the reading im doing, but here is the post and its close to the bottom
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2057285/Searchpage/4/Main/175727/Words/%2BE-STREET/Search/true/re-trick-flow-vs-stealth-vs-super-stealth-for-505-build.html#Post2057285

Correction to link

CLICK HERE

From that thread:



It’s important to note the E street numbers listed there are for the 75cc version, not the 84cc version(which flow the same as the 84cc RPM).
The 84cc version has straight plugs.

The 75cc E street has some additional valve shrouding because of how the chamber is pulled in closer to the valves.
With some blending, the flow deficit can be mostly eliminated........ for those combinations where the 75cc chamber is a better fit for the application(but don’t want to give up that mid-lift flow).

Ok, so I take it that for my application, you are recommending the 84cc E-street head and they will flow better than any of the other in the same price range im looking at? ( I was thinking the 84cc heads were open chambered which I know was recommended against before when I asked about the RPM heads) SO I figured the 75 cc would be better for getting the compression up even higher and getting the quench better.. Sorry for all the questions, I am learning while trying to make this thing fast.

Correction my Stupid Stealths [Super Stealths] flow real bad .200 to .500 compared to the TF240's

Just re-read my original recommendation.

Hard to say for sure without numbers for both from the same bench.

Thats true!! also my Flow bench is just a toy bench, just like Bradh says, Super Flow 110

I had a SF-110 for 14 years.......I did countless flow tests with it.

Hard to believe...... I’ve had the “new” bench almost 12 years now.

Just happen to have a pic of a Stealth head ready to be tested:

I see you use the Repeatable air entry plate , my old stuff

Are you still using nanometers or did you convert it over to electronics. I sold my manometer bench because I didn’t want to do the weather conversion every time I did a flow test. They are to easily affected by the weather.

I find the intake usually kills off some flow.

I “usually” only bother flowing the intake to see how much it’s dropping the head flow.

Occasionally, if I’m having trouble with the port “backing up” at high lifts, and can’t seem to cure it...... I’ll put the manifold on and see if it helps with that trend.
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t.

The “fixed orifice” type of bench(what mine is) are much less affected by weather than the “laminar flow element” type bench.
The FO type bench isn’t trying to determine what the actual flow is...... it’s comparing the head to an orifice with a known flow capacity..... and the weather on both “sides” of the bench(inlet and outlet) are always the same as each other.

I had my old SF-110 for 14 years...... and the bench correction factor never changed. Warm, cool, humid, dry........ the test plate always flowed exactly the same(same reading on the manometer)......... if you did the test the same way.

I was testing the intake, had that port working fair, That intake killed it, thats why I ended up with the Indy single plane, but my next efi intake set up is what I have wanted all along, it is on the way

Offy dual port 360 with twin FiTech’s ?

Or maybe......

Sent you a PM Dwayne .

fast, i re-read your original suggestion. You said use 84cc e-streets rather than the 88cc..Can you tell me why as thats only 4 cc difference? also, why do they make both of those size combustion chambers being they are only 4cc's apart..thats very strange..Again, im asking because i plain and simple dont know and want to understand why, besides the better hardware you were talking about..I totally trust your advice 100000%, i know youve been doing this a long time and everyone recommends you, thats why im bugging you because you know what your doing, i just want to understand too! I know ive saved for a long time to be able to do this and i just want the best one thats in my price range..I would be very dissapointed to buy a set thinking they are going to be all great, then bolt them on and not see much difference. I FINALLY swapped out my stock iron intake for the holley street dominator last week and dont notice any difference, so was kind of dissapointed, but i know it will be better with the new heads. Im guessing the stock intake flowed more than enough for the stock heads. Something i remember reading on another post kind of dissapointed me..they were saying the rpm's and e-streets and stealths were all 84-88cc open chamber heads, and if you are using flat top pistons, then the gain is not worth the expense besides the weight reduction because of little to no quench..I dont understand why it wouldnt be worth it because if you can take your heads off and port them and put them back on and gain a good bit of power, then why cant you bolt on a set of aluminum heads that already have bigger ports and have the same open chamber and still gain decently?

as posted previously; 88cc is for quench dome pistons. you don't have quench dome pistons. 84cc for flat top pistons. you have flat top pistons.

ahh i see..i missed that..Thanks, this makes sense now.

If you would simply read and understand the posts from all the folks trying to help you, and do a little product research yourself, you wouldnt wear everyone out with questions and redundant questions.

Just a tip. Take it for what its worth.

I have read it and researched it and yes, some of it i dont understand..sorry for that. Thats the reason i ask. Another reason i ask is because ive read several posts about manufacturers exaggerating their flow numbers, so i cant go completely by what they say, so again, i have to ask people that have real experience with them. I am listening and going to take the advice..i ask why the certain advice is given simply to learn because i want to know and nothing more..whats wrong with knowing why i was pointed towards a certain part? if you want to learn you have to ask those that know. Thats the reason i really hate coming on here and asking anything because it usually gets someone upset, but this site has smart people on here that i trust, so..

i would suggest looking for pictures of the 84cc and 88cc chambers and flat top vs quench dome piston pictures. this will help you to completely understand what is best for what your working with. keeping in mind that the top of the piston is actually the floor of the combustion chamber and there are real advantages to matching these two parts up. I use flat top and quench dome pistons but I don't mismatch them with a given chamber design. pictures can be worth a thousand words.

the cost question was brought up but I don't think it was completely answered. the difference in money between what I have in the stage V heads vs the edelbrock 84cc heads is about the same. the edelbrocks did require custom push rods; no shelf push rod would work. ironically the same cylinder block, camshaft and tappets were used in combination with both types of heads. I think the argument about which is best, iron vs alum, is rather subjective. it just depends on what a person wants to do. with stock '452's anything you do will be an upgrade. even a simple pocket port/back cut will give improvements. I have a set of hughs stage I '452's I think would make a great street or moderate bracket head. the guy I got them from payed hughs $1000 for the work. the stage v"s have about $1600-$1700 in them. the edelbrocks I bought were around $1600 but I had to put an extra $250 in the combo for custom push rods; and to get the edelbrocks better than the stage V's may cost $400-$500. you can put way north of $2500 in a head up grade. I guess you have to ask yourself where you want to go with this and how much money do you want to spend to get there.

I did check out the pictures of the edelbrock chambers this morning. I was unsure if the 84 cc were actually a closed chamber being it does have quite a big chamber to it, but i do see the differences now though. As far as money, like i said, the money for E-streets is about the top dollar i can spend along with anything else i need to install them. They will go on the car as is besides being checked out first. Will probably never port them so thats why, in my price range, i want the best flowing heads out of the box. I am assuming that the 84cc's are being recommended over the 75cc's because of the lost flow with the 75cc's?

i would get the promaxx 9440 heads from jegs. 84cc closed chambers.
get $100 off right now.

find pittsburghracers thread comparing the promaxx smal block heads to the edelbrocks...the promaxx are finished nicely.

i'm using 84cc edelbrocks because they work the best for the piston/compression ratio combo I wanted for a pump gas engine. 75cc heads will noticeably raise your compression ratio and this needs to be factored in if your running pump gas. I definetly would check the installed centerline of the camshaft when you take the engine apart. you may be at 102 installed centerline which I wouldn't do.

If you lived closer I would throw one on my bench and get you some flow numbers and do some air speed checks for you for free as I would be curious too. I do before, during, and after flow testing on every head I port. Then I bolt the intake on and finish the job.

Not to change the subject but what convertor are you running? Gear ratio?

My 440 is almost exactly the same as the OP's. The only differences are the cam (Engle .534 lift, 238@.050") and intake (Performer RPM).

Right now I'm leaning towards either the E Streets or the Pro Maxx heads as the best bang for the buck heads to replace my bone stock 452s. This might be blasphemy but I've been hearing that the casting quality and flow numbers are actually better with the Pro Maxx heads than the Edelbrocks.

I also read that but there was no way in hell i was going to ask about it. Are you also running the 2355 pistons or just pistons with the same compression height?

are the promaxx raised port? big deal if they are.

I'm running the 2355 pistons. I'm also running Hooker 1 and 7/8" Comp headers that are made for heads with straight plugs (E Streets, Stealth) but from what I understand can be made to work with angled plug heads (RPMs, Pro Maxx) by dinging a couple tubes. I bough them used and the #2 tube is already dinged so someone may have run them on heads with angled plugs already.

I"m still curious as to what convertor and gear ratio you are running?

No, they are an RPM copy - same casting as used by the Sidewinders but finished/assembled by Pro Maxx.