Bias Ply Balancing

I am no expert but I have balanced my share of radial tires in the past. I am lucky enough to have access to a Hunter road force machine and got quite good at force matching tires to minimize the mass of wheel weights. I like the challenge of getting a true wheel balance.
With this said I decided to put E70-14 Goodyear Redlines (Kelsey) on my GTS. I just plain like the look of the bias on the older cars. I know the benefits of radials, just wanted that vintage sidewall look. I checked the trueness of my bare rims and 4 were very good, one had a slight runout variation, but still within spec. I decided to use that one on my spare tire.
Today I finally got around to mounting and balancing the tires. I did the spare rim today and was faced with a major challenge. Road force was a massive 48 lbs. After some runout checks and spinning on the rim I got it down to 31 lbs. I just cant get it any better after about an hours on one rim (lost count of how many times I broke the bead to spin the tire). The spin balance reading is about 350g on the inner and 400g on the outer. That is pretty crazy. No way I am putting that much weight on my rims, that would look ridiculous.
Are bias ply repros that out of balance? I can see the sidewall variations as the road force drum does its work. I just ordered a pack of Counteract balancing beads in an attempt to cut down on the weight.

hi try another tire that one mabe defective , ad a goodyear polyglass that was wayyy off once !

I don't have any firsthand experience with the Kelsey/Goodyears but I've HEARD from several people they are really bad to balance.

I didn't balance myself but my Cokers haven't had what I thought was excessive weight on them, and my bias slicks haven't either.

I can't get my Polyglas in balance either. I think it comes down to GoodYear made millions of them and the repos make a few thousand tires, just not as good. I don't think they have as good as traction as they did back in the day, and I drove them back then. You might try a vintage Hunter on the car spin balancer, that was the only way back then to really balance tires.

I started mounting and balancing tires with a hand operated tire changers and a bubble balancers in a "service station" in the early 1960s, if a new tire took more than 12 ounces total weight to balance we would send the tires back to the makers as defective. I've sent more than one total (maybe 6 to 9 tires total) set back in my short times working in several different station back then Those where bias ply only, not belted tires either.
I bought a new set of old Firestone 12.25x31.25x15 W drag slicks that needed close to that and them rascal would bounce horribly around 75 MPH and again near 120 MPH. I race them two weekends and took them off and got rid of them Life is to valuable to take chances on some thing in life
I still use that weight as my guidelines today using my home hand operated machine and bubble balancer

All the ones I have done have all over the place.

i have been balancing tires since 1968, and bias tires [of mostly ALL brands] take weight for sure ! and try balancing a recap winter tread bias. you will have some REAL fun.
i've never tried balance beads with a bias tire, but they work very well in radials. if you go that rout, please check back and tell us how they worked.

Interesting thread. I don’t like seeing more than 2 ounces on my radials, 1 is MUCH better. I had no idea that the old bias plies were that ‘lopsided’ weight wise!

even when i got introduced to a spin balancer around 1971 or so, it still took a bunch of weight at times.
today though, wheels have a much tighter runout tolerance, steel or aluminum, so that helps a ton, balance wise [with radials].

I have the same issues, I race with a very nice gentlemen that owns a shop with a road force machine and he has to work VERY hard to get mine good enough! It also doesn’t help my wheels are like potato chips!

Your wheels must be acid dipped
My rear bias tires would ask for 4 or 5 ounces,,,,then respin and wanted more in a different spot,,,spun again and wanted more!
These were with ET Street 16.5 X 31 & the 10.5W slicks.

As I waited for my beads to arrive, tried the other 4 tires. Had one decent with "only" 18 lbs of road force. Then another with 75 lbs of road force! This was down from 89 lbs on first try.
Decided to balance at 40 psi, which does yield better results. It seems like these tires are butter soft. Going from 32 psi to 40 psi you can see the sidewall grow and move. I will let them sit for a couple of days, maybe some of the wiggle will come out. Or maybe I need to install and drive some to get them settled in, then rebalance. One of the guys was saying that Mercedes has you on tires that are tough to balance, set pressure to max, drive the car hard to get them hot, then set to correct pressure and balance while still warm. I cant do all of that since I need to get my alignment done first, but I can at least go around the block a little and work the tires a little.
But I will see what the beads do. Worth a shot.

I still have a bubble balancer. We used it one day at a friend's shop. It was on sale as his new fancy machine. But took some time he was shocked. In reality o have 2 a old metal triangle shaped yellow or gold colored one. And same brand but newer and heavy plastic. And the 8 lug addlapter plate as well.

. It’s tough to get a carbon fiber wheel to run true!

a couple of years ago, i picked up a [well] used snap-on wheel balancer you install the tire/wheel assembly between a couple of cones on a shaft resting on four sealed bearings, then let it settle the heavy side to the bottom. then, there is a bar that you adjust until you can place the tire/wheel assembly to any position without it moving. it then tells you how much weight is needed in the spot[s] indicated.
this thing was a state of the art deal when introduced, so i figured for the price of four bearings, and freeing up the sliding mechanism, it will be interesting to see how this works, compared to a spin balancer.
or possibly compare wheels to see how far out of balance they are.

Had the same problem with my Polyglas repro F60-15's on factory stock rallye rims and repro rallye rims, rim run out was within acceptable limits, tried all kinds of different weights, remounting on the rim, air pressure combos, you name it, the only thing that worked was 8 ozs of Dyna beads in each tire...zero issues after that, no flaky speed zone vibrations, no issue with inflation ranges either, one note though I use nitrogen to air the tires so that no moisture clumps the beads...


read more if interested?... http://www.innovativebalancing.com/

how did you decide on using 8oz of the beads ? that seems to be twice the recommended amount according to the chart.

and what PSI do you run in your poly's Mike?

road force to 31 will work I will try to put the hi # in the rear I do a lot of them
you can also try a different wheel we have some success with that to
very rare for them to road force less then 20
we also static balance
we run the psi at 32
unless we racing then we start at 23

D,

I 'll run 30-35 psi

Mike

Here some more info on my situation.
I filled the tires to 40 psi and let sit in the sun for a few hours to get a nice "tan" and warm up. Later that day I re-balanced the best of the bunch to confirm the weights. 2.5 oz on the inner and 3.5 on the outer and 22 lbs of road force. I broke the bead and put in 6 oz of Counteract beads (I bought 6 oz bags). Refilled to 40 psi and spun on the balancer. What I can say for sure is the balancer does not like these beads. It is pretty much like spin of the roulette wheel for results. Every time is different and can be very different. Road force is the same, which I kinda figured. The balancer was even starting to throw a "wheel slippage" message at times. My thinking is the randomness of the beads and depending on when the snapshot of the balancer is taken, yield varied results. I guess the only way to know is to install and drive.

Before I do that, I am working with the distributor to see how they want to handle. I am not putting on the road until they say so.

To give some perspective, here are some videos of the tire on the machine. If that redwall is supposed to be true all the way around, this tire (the best one of 5) is a way out of whack. You can hear the high spot as it goes around.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nOR8UJgR7Cj12q5TLoKRsEe2CIVdSk1h
https://drive.google.com/open?id=19k0yBc8uJ6zda0POkPqrlCVt8cXHoLWx
https://drive.google.com/open?id=16vKZMMP_x0qfFUbiFRLdbxjK0GuqlsXp

Dude that tire is HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ....nothing, repeat NOTHING is going to balance that!


I'd send these vids to the mfg/distributor and either get another set, or refund IMHO

And that was the best one.
Wondering if the weight of the car + some heat from driving would massage back in shape? Other option i looked into is tire shaving, but then if the tire does change shape in future, the shave is erased.
Hoping they come through. I did buy them last fall (they were produced in September) and only got to install now due to all my delays.

as dayclona said, those tires are [to be Very kind] NOT round.
however, that tire is no worse than they were back in the day. i always wondered about that because some tires like that balanced to where you couldn't feel them, and others would hop all over the place.
and if you think those are bad, you should have seen some of the ReCaps that were done at the same shop i worked at. [those ReCaps had the reputation of being the BEST in the area ! go figure.]

So here is the update. I was going back and forth with the tire company and they were saying that road force on a bias ply is not the way to go. They would send me new tires if the spin balance weights were excessive and I could not get to balance. By turning the rim I was finally able to get all the tires to balance with a 2 to 3 oz of weight max. Road forces were still all over the place from 20 to 70 lbs. Rather than deal with another set that could be poor I gambled and decided to just install. I did put in 6 oz of counteract balancing beads, but did not put any weights on the rims.

Last night I installed on the car, putting the worst road force tires in the rear. My car is only eyeball aligned at this point, so that still needs to be done. I will say I am surprised how smooth it was. I really did not feel anything crazy with imbalance over any other old mopar I own. Not like we have the greatest roads in NJ to start with. The more I drove the better it got. Given my lack of alignment, did not want to drive too long, but I did some runs up to 70 mph and cruised on some smooth roads. Felt pretty darn nice. Vehicle steers easier at low speeds, compared to the radials, which is nice with the manual box. These tires seem to hook up pretty well too.

I am really happy with the stance and look of these tires. Exactly what I was hoping for. Now I need an alignment and to install my simulated mags, which I have been keeping my NOS set cocooned up for several years. This will complete the look.

BTW, this is the first time I ever took this car on the road more than just puttering around the block. First tank of gas and for sure the first series of hole shots ever. Gave me goosebumps thinking back to when I was a little kid in 1980 sitting behind the wheel of this same car playing “Dukes of Hazzard” with my friends. I really have been waiting a long time for this car to be on the road.

Car looks striking and mean with those red lines. Reminds me of wearing the right pair of Pro-Kids 69'ners back then.

Enjoy the car and roads as long as you can.

I was pretty surprised how well the car handled and rode with the redlines. I going to do the road portion of dragweek on my f70-14’s

Congratulations, that is a super sweet ride with a great back ground.
Enjoy it while you can
Reminds me of beating on my '68 Coronete 500 in the 80's.
IT came from Arizona and was so mint for that type car in that decade.
383 auto with the console.
Man what a blast.
Still have it, but it's rusted so bad it will never get fixed.
My grand kids will have to gt rid of it, just way too many memories.

So the balancing beads seem to work? How did you judge how much to put in each tire?

So far, yes they work. If it ever stops raining more then a day here, I will finally get my car aligned and get to drive it more to tell for sure. Initial indications were that I did not notice any vibrations at all that I would deem an imbalance. Keep in mind I did get the tire to a position that really only had 2 to maybe 3.25oz of weight needed to balance. If I just threw in the beads without checking and trying to do some force matching of the rim and tire, results may not have been as good.

The Counteract site had a calculator that said 4oz. In the posts above someone mentioned 6oz worked for him. Given all the road force I was seeing, I erred on the side of caution and just put in 6oz. 4 pack was like $40 on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/DIYK-6-Count...;qid=1556742666&s=gateway&sr=8-3

I talked to Dynabead about balancing and they said not to put them in before machine balancing, that it would throw the balancer off and get readings all over the place, like you experienced. They say 65 series and below tires need them in addition to machine balancing.

are you guys saying the tire/rim combination needs spin or road force balancing PLUS the beads ?

In most situations I bet the balancing beads work right out of the bag and no further checking is needed and this what their calculators are built for.

In certain situations, like with my tires, if I did not do some level of road force matching/rim spinning, I am not sure the beads would have been enough. When I first installed, I was getting anywhere from 12-20 oz of weight. I was able to trim that down by spinning on the rim and force matching.

I feel that if you are getting the tires mounted, putting them on a balancer after to at least get a ballpark reading for spin balance and ideally road force, would be worth it. If reasonable for the balancing beads to work, throw the tire back on the mounter and break the top/outer bead. Pour in your balancing beads, air up, and be done. A lot easier to dump into the tire, then feed through the valve stem.

Hope to drive my car more soon, so I can further evaluate.

They say for 65 series and below tires. Go, read what their website says.

i have been experimenting with beads [of different manufacturers] for a little while, and using the recommended amount, some tires are perfect, some still have a little vibration. i haven't tried spinning them first, and there is no one around here with a road force machine.
more experimentation is in the works. i'm guessing too many beads will increase vibration by a bunch ? i'll try an ounce or two at a time and see what the results are.

Finally had the sun come out for a couple of hours and the roads dried enough to venture out. First mile at low speed I felt a shimmy in the steering wheel and I was concerned. But after jumping on a 55 mph road it smoothed out. After that, all was smooth as silk. I still need my alignment, but it rides pretty darn nice. I could notice no vibration after the initial mile.

as the beads will settle to the bottom when stopped, maybe that is what you felt ? see if that happens the next time out.