Borgeson steering box

The Borgeson steering box seems to be based on two different OEM boxes but if I were to order one which one will I receive? I don't trust the pictures @ Summit, JEGS etc.

One box is based on the Delphi 600 box that was used in Grand Cherokees. The other one is apparently a JKC box (not entirely sure but I think Hitachi owns JKC). These boxes can be found in in Isuzu Trooper/Opel Frontera A/Opel Campo/some RHD Nissans.

here is the Delphi based box (note the part where the PS lines connect and the housing extends past the sector shaft) :





the other PS box has a shorter housing (ends shortly after the intersection with the sector shaft) and the part where the lines connect looks different as well:

I think I would go to the Borgeson website, or call them to see which box fits your application. Once you get the correct part number from them, you can get the box from the supplier of your choice. I don't believe Borgeson sells directly to consumers. Gene

http://bergmanautocraft.com/proddetail.php?prod=5-0002

did some more research and I believe that they do not use the Delphi box anymore. They claim that their boxes are 100% new and apparently the Delphi 600 box is out of production. Furthermore the Delphi box had to be cut and rewelded as it was too long (see weld on sector shaft housing in first picture).

I wonder what it would take to install a used jkc box out of a trooper into an a/b/e body?

This is what I'm trying to figure out obviously you would need to cut off the old mounting ears and weld on new ones. And you would need to find a pitman arm that matches the spline count and taper of the Isuzu box (or cut off the spline part of an Isuzu arm and weld it to the Mopar arm).

**FREE Shipping on the kit or just the box!**

Borgeson discontinued the Delphi boxes several years ago.

They are now using new (un-welded) castings to produce Isuzu based steering boxes for Mopar applications.

I assume a bunch of boxes built around welded Isuzu castings are still in the pipeline, however.

Are the new boxes a lot lighter too?

I don't know the weight difference. I just saw the latest version at SEMA last week.

Thanks Cass.

I heard last year they were coming out with their own one piece castings.

Any pics of the new setup?

Does Borgeson use a custom worm gear for the Isuzu box? According to their website the ratio is 14:1 but the Isuzu steering is 3.8 to 4 turns lock to lock which would mean a ratio around 18:1. Or is the internal ratio the same but Isuzus just use a shorter pitman arm?

Looks like the Isuzu box.

Seems the NZ government is not too happy about the modified Borgeson steering boxes as they issued a safety alert:

https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/safety_alerts/LVVTA_Safety_Alert_09_-_2018_-_Modified_%27Borgeson%27-brand_Steering_Boxes.pdf

Maybe that is one of the reasons they are coming out with a new box...

I would be a bit leery of anything steering box wise that Borgeson is selling. I have installed a few of their units in different applications and had a lot of problems. Wrong angles on the pitman, groaning at low speeds or when stopped, Fluid overheating for a few examples.
Their tech support consists of 1. Try a different fluid. 2. We'll send you a new box / pump etc.
When asking to speak with one of their engineers I was told they don't have any. They use consultants. I was further told that they design for more popular application (think Camaro) and if it works there they then adapt it over to others. Having trouble believing all of this I tried to reach the owner / CEO and was told good luck.
Digging into it, the father built the company with a stellar reputation for u joints etc. He has basically retired and his son along with the father are more interested in making guns.
So Proceed with caution.
And should there be any non believers, Google "Gerry Zordan" and do your own research

Well, i can add a little info to this conversation.

I just installed a borgeson box in my '68 Dart

I decided to pull the trigger on this because of the slop in my original box, and the leaking became a big problem..

Purchased a unit from BAC, seems to be the newer style, its a one piece casting, meaning it doesn't have anything welded to it.
It is smaller and lighter, but I still had to bang on my headers in a new spot to get clearance for the Borgeson unit, (dougs headers).
Install went well enough, I used BAC's coupler. New box has absolutely no play in the center like my old box, it has a nice feel, nice and firm.
No slop, no leaks. Also installed a new Moog pitman arm when I did the box cause its the only component in front end that I had not replaced or upgraded yet.

The problem I'm having is the steering wont return to center by itself after turning. It returns somewhat, but slowly, and not all the way to center.
You still have to straighten up by turning the wheel back to center yourself. Kind of annoying to say the least.
BAC told me I probably didnt have enough caster. So I went though my alignment last sunday. When I first checked I had 3 degrees of caster. After some adjusting I managed to get 6 degree, thanks to my QA1 upper arms. Old box return to center great with 3 degrees.
But adding more caster didn't fix the issue. Maybe slightly better.
Sent an email directly to Borgeson, They suggested backing off the adjustment on the top of the box 1/4 turn and see if that fixes it.

Nope, tried 1/4 turn, and then another 1/4 turn, but the problem persists.
Just sent an email back to Borgeson again telling them the adjustment didn't work. We'll see what they say.

Could you share a picture of the new box? I'd like to see how the new case with mounting tab looks like.

I only took a couple pics before I installed it, so you might not be able to see part your interested in.
But heres what I got.

is it the photo or is there a bit of an angle at the coupler in the steering shaft?

Welcome to the world of Borgeson close engineering where 90% is good enough. Next thing you'll hear is we've sold hundreds of these and you're the only one having a problem (we really do need a BS smilie)

Similar experience/ problems with Eddie Motorsports on their S Drive serpentine BB conversion.

Maybe I'm the one's thats wrong in expecting the "kits" to work without a bunch of hair pulling BS

This kind of BS where parts don't fit, is one of the key reasons why I probably won't do another project. I swear, everything is at best only 80% or 90% correct. If it will even work at all.

Yes there is actually quite an angle difference between the shaft coming out of the box, and the steering column shaft
I emailed Bergman auto craft about this, his answer was that because the box is smaller
Than the original the angle is necessary, and his coupler is designed to handle the angle.

I've been tempted to purchase and install ... and try the Borgenson box (and get it through BAC with their coupler, hoses, etc), primarily interested in the reduced weight (~10 lbs?)... but the ratio is only stated at ~14:1... whereas the T/A box with fast ratio long pitman arm (and the C-body longer idler arm... aka "fast ratio matching idler arm)... seems to be the faster setup for quickest steering response. I had my T/A box recently rebuilt by Firm Feel (Stage 3)... still to drive the car as its waiting for the new SB engine.

I've always wondered IF the longer "fast ratio" pitman arm would work with the Borgenson box... and what the ratio would become.. and the resulting steering effect. I want the fastest steering response. (Using a smaller diameter steering wheel also helps.... I use an 11.5" thick deep-dish padded wheel... works great!)

The fast ratio arms are quoted as changing the rato by 75% so 14:1 would turn into 10.50. I've never done it myself but that is what the math says. I think the fast ratio Pittman arm is available in both large and small sector.

I'm in the process of sorting out a Borgeson box for my '65 Coronet so I'm following along on this thread.

It seems to me that anything "faster" than 12 to 1 might be too twitchy, maybe even too much steering effort?

Ok i will admit right a way that i dont have any experience with the Borgeson box.the fast ratio pitman arm or a firm feel box for that mather,but i will throw in a few thoughts from an outside osberver anyway,
The longer idler arm and pitmanarm will push your steering linkage rearwards and may create interference with your headers/exhaustpipes just one of those things that may be good to keep an eye on.
Also i dont know how those firm feel boxes "feel" but just getting away from that big "dead" spot around center that most stock boxes has should be a great advantage from the borgesonboxes from what i undertsand.

I've been daily driving my (1st gen) Borgeson P/S-box for about 6 years already with great pleasure.
Recently had the car on a circuit too which was great fun.

Sounds great, good to know you are enjoying it. I'm still rounding up the parts for my conversion. I was going to use the Saginaw pump but now I'm considering going with a late model Type II pump instead. I suppose if I'm going to make it modern I should go ahead and make it modern.

I've considered this conversion too. Glad yo're doing it Andy. Be sure to make more than one set of pump brackets

I've had my share of issues with a Type II pump, but they now seem to be resolved. I ended up going through one generic Speedway motors pump, one junk parts store pump before landing my PSC Motorsports pump that seems to be getting the job done. They are quite particular about their fluid, I use the recommended AC Delco power steering fluid, and nothing else.

PSC ball bearing "race" Type II pump with integral reservoir and a Borgeson box. I'd like to add the long arms to the box and idler, the steering is too slow for me. My pump mount design doubles as a torque strap mount as well. [final hose routing is not shown]

Here is an old picture I have of a Type II pump. I didn't make these brackets but I don't know where they came from. Does anyone recognize them? I looked the other day for Mopar big block Type II brackets and came up empty.

Damn. Those look nice.

Was it these guys?

https://www.bouchillonperformance.com/inc/sdetail/984/1005

Possibly Unisteer ?? they have a setup that s very close except for the rear mount, the picture may be an earlier design ??

Unisteer LINK

Yep, I think it was Unisteer. They sent me one of their rack and pinion setups back then to look at and they must have included a type II pump setup. I'd forgotten about the pump bracket but it sure looks like the same one. I'll order one to see how the new design works.

Is there any benefit to going to a type II box over the Saginaw? I'm actually looking at buying a new pump this season and haven't had any luck with junk parts store boxes. Borgeson sells them and I just planned on get a pump from them to match the steering box. They're $350 though and for that I can get the brackets and type II pump from Unisteer.

The same for the box I put in my Charger. I'm using my Saginaw pump that I already had. Have not driven the car yet but just turning the wheel staticly I could feel a big difference.

The Type II box is lighter and more popular with the aftermarket than the Saginaw pump. I also think it looks better. I can't tell you on performance since I don't have any experience yet with either box. I think the Saginaw pump works okay but it doesn't seem to be the hot setup for the road race guys. They all seem to be using the Type II pump these days. So for a street car I think the Saginaw probably works just fine. The Saginaw is also dirt cheap to buy and rebuild (if you have the proper tools). Personally I think I'll end up with the Type II pump on my car but that is because I'm more Mod than Resto. I already have the EFI, Porsche brakes, Toyota alternator, digital dash thing going on. Might as well keep it rolling with a Type II PS pump........

For those reading this and planning on using the type 2 pump, make sure to get a pulley that has a removable hub collar like a normal press fit saginaw pulley. The Unisteer pulley pictured above does not have the hub and is difficult if not impossible to remove once pressed on.

Also be aware that if you try to press the pulley on until it is flush with the shaft as usual, the back of the pulley will bottom on the pump housing
Can you say BAD DESIGN ???

Love what Goody did, that bracket for the Gen 3 is sweet.
How do I get 1?

we make a 7 rib pulley for this power steering pump, could also make a v belt version if there is demand for it. ours has a hub so it can be installed and removed with a standard power steering pulley puller.

Turns out I need to use the Type II box since the Saginaw pump will not fit with the motor mount that I'm using. The outlet port runs right into the motor mount and there is no easy fix that I can see.

What are those there shorty headers?

I would guess its a set of these: https://www.engine-swaps.com/Pages/ProductsType/BRB_Headers.html

Yep, I started with some Schumacher headers and then modified to work in my chassis.

After working on it for a bit I came to the conclusion that for my car the Type II pump is the way I have to go. The Saginaw pump just wouldn't fit with the A body big block motor mount that I'm using. I ordered up a pump from Detroit Speed but it showed up damaged so now I have to get a replacement. It does look like a nice pump and it only weighed 4 lbs. I still need to order a pulley. I got the pump bracket kit from Unisteer and it doesn't really make me happy. I'll use the main plate from the Unisteer kit, toss the rest in the recycle box and fab my own setup.

I did get my steering column fully rebuilt with all new bearings and seals so it is ready to go back in the car. I'm not a big fan of how the Borgeson box is angled in the car. The steering shaft used to be a straight shot into the manual steering box but now the Borgeson box sits at a slight angle. So the coupler is going to be cycling every time the steering wheel rotates. I guess we'll see how that feels. Other people are using this box and I haven't heard any complaints but it looks goofy to me.

My Borgseon box was angled deadstraight when installed at first (small sectorshaft but '73 K-member/Dart).
But after I installed Doug's headers a few years later I had move the engine and P/S around a bit to have the (stock) steeringcoupler clear the nr. 7 exhausttube. It's at a very slight angle now.

Andy,

Refer to my earlier post on the type 2 pulleys before ordering and save yourself some grief

Installed in our Ebody, 5 plus years ago. Like now, but one hell of an adventure to get it dialed. Do a search on Borgeson and read some of the older threads. Also put one in wife’s 55 T Bird. Another adventure as they had never offered a system for the Bird. Adapted a full size Ford unit to the Bird. Works well

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "adventure"?

Installation was a real pita. After many weeks finally came up with shimming of box in order to get proper toe alignment. Borgeson tech support was let me put it politely,,,,less than adequate. It was always user error until I discovered their real problem which was in machining and jigs to attach mounting ears. Subsequently others found exact same issues. Once shim was created an installed, all was ok.

I did a search for my old threads. For some reason only found going back to 2016. Those from 2014 til then are not listed. This is where main adventure and photos were.

This url will show some of my thread,,,,but only those 2016 or later. They are listed by my handle.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/dosearch/topic/0/Searchpage/8.html

For some reason I can't get the link you provided to work. Anyway is the box you are using the welded or cast one?