Torsion bar anchor slipping?

Posted this in 'Suspension" but no looks yet.

This on a 70 Charger RT, changed to heavier bars this year to remedy what we thought was a sagging bar on driver's side.
Now sagging is apparent on that side again.

Figured bar anchor in rear cross member was the culprit, but today's inspection revealed movement in lower control arm asbly.

Looks like we can loosen the suspension to the point where you install a new bar and weld the perimeter of the front anchor.

Does this sound like a fix, or am I missing something?

Thanks, Joe

PS. New adjusting blocks and bolts

If you are describing what I think you are describing it is supposed to move.

The part that receives the front of the torsion bar is a separate piece from the lower control, arm it is pressed/welded into the control arm at the pivot point and exerts the twisting force to the T-bar.

If it is allowed to move, how does it transmit the twisting force??

Thanks, Joe

via the adjuster, see the red part? That rides on the ball of the adjuster bolt and it's part of the T bar socket, it (socket and lever) will rotate with no load on it.

Well then, that lends credence to the suggestion that the K-frame may be at fault, I'll look tomorrow.

Thanks, Joe

But....is that lever and socket one piece?

No, they can't be or you couldn't install it into the LCA when it's assembled. Good point

Yes, the lever and socket are one piece. I have seen stripped threads in the adjuster.

Adjusters are new, old adjusters were fine, I think the problem is elsewhere.

Adjusting lever is a casting, I don't think the T-bar socket is cast.

The FSM shows them as separate pieces.

Thanks, Joe

Check the mounting sleeve in the K-frame itself. I've seen many break loose and spin.

That piece in the lower control arm should be stationary and should move with the control arm as it moves thru it's arc twisting the T bar. The tube in shouldn't have a big effect outside of the bushing not twisting as the control arm moves up and down.

I think you should go back to looking at the rear socket , I assume you have marked it to check for movement? the only other thing is if the front socket and it's lever are not actually one piece and are 2 then it could have slipped? I don't have a control arm handy to look at ...

Well, it looks like we'll have to take it out so we can give it a good look at how the front socket and adjusting lever are mated.

See no problem with the rear socket and all frame parts including K-frame are solid, this was a S. Carolina car originally.

I'll get back here as soon as we undo everything.

Thanks everyone, Joe

After some confusing responses, not all, the best thing for YOU to do is get that control arm off and on the bench to study it. You should see the lever , that adjuster bolt rests into the bottom of, should freely turn WITH the front T bar socket. You can rotate it some, but not 360 degrees tough. Never saw those 2 pieces turn separate of each other. If you upgraded bars, during re-install,don't be surprised when you have to pull the arms down pretty low to insert bar in front and rear.

Thanks Buildanother,I replaced the bars as I said to correct what I thought was a sagging bar on the driver's side, never thinking that the socket may have slipped on the adj. arm.

So the new bar re-install went well, dropped everything as low as it would go and removed the bump cushions too.
Went well because the driver's side socket had apparently moved enough that it had indexed to the next flat on the hex.

I'm really intrigued as to how mother MOPAR have the two parts joined.
Worse comes to worst, I imagine I my be able to put t the two pieces in the proper position and drill through them to put a good sized hardened pin through and somehow stake it to stay...we'll see

Thanks, Joe

I`m thinking that part( the lever and hex head) must be one piece and then they put the 2 halves of the arm together around it. I don`t see how it could move separately from one another. I may be wrong as I never had the arm apart to see for sure. If it is moving then I would just look for a replacement arm. Not sure I would try to repair it.

The FSM shows the hex as a separate part, we'll get some answers in a couple of days.....

Joe

Makes me wonder why they would show it separate as it is not a serviceable part. The bushing, shaft, adjusting bolt and swivel and ball joint are the only service parts. Can you post a pic of the service manual page or pages? Just curious.

I've got a junk A-body arm out in the garage. I'll cut it apart and see what the socket/adjuster arm look like.

I was mistaken, looking at the diagram in the FSM, I thought I was looking at the rear of the lower control arm when I was actually looking at the front.

Rats, I hate admitting mistakes...

Anyhow the mystery continues, as we started dis-assembling, the NEW adjusting screw and block were very difficult to undo and the threads on the screw were galled to where it's unusable... How??? Everything was lubricated on assembly.

Can't imagine it slipping though as tight as it was.

We'll see as soon as we finish.
Have a lead on a replacement control arm, hopefully he has it.

Thanks for the guidance, Joe

Did you adjust them with the car jacked up and the weight off? Are they offshore adjusters or mopar ones?

I have an a-body set out of the car and it appears the perimeter of the lever arm is welded to the round part that the t-bar plugs into.

I bought an after market adjuster from "American Muscle" and the female part of the thread stripped out as I was adjusting with the weight of car on the ground. The FSM says to "Lower vehicle to floor and adjust front suspension height." As usual the after market never seems to get the heat treatment/hardness right if they do it at all.

What page does the SM say adjust with the car sitting on the floor?

Is this a seriously legit question or are you being a wiseguy?

What is the purpose of adjusting the torsion bars?

To set the ride height.

How do you set the ride height if the tires are not on the ground?

You don't.

Get an FSM, read it. It's in Chapter 2, alignment.

From a 72 Plymouth FSM, I quote:

"Height

Front suspension heights must be held to specifications
for a satisfactory ride, correct appearance,
proper front wheel alignment and reduced tire wear.
The heights should only be measured when vehicle
has the recommended tire pressures, a full tank of
fuel, no passenger or luggage compartment load and
is on a level floor or an alignment rack."

Interesting, I've always read on here to "do it in the air", I guess that's urban myth or "fake news"

The reason for doing it in the air is it takes the pressure off the suspension and makes turning the adjustment bolt a lot easier. All the measurements should be done with the car loaded on all fours.

Neil, that's the info I was waiting for, now I know that something could have given way between the two pieces.

The lever then must be cast steel to be weldable and strong as needed for that application.

Joe

Absolutely NOT.

You will never get accurate alignment readings doing that.

Tell me exactly why you won't get correct readings with the car on the ground? Raising it up a little to make the adjustment takes the pressure off of the adjustment bolt and helps to keep from galling or striping the bolt.

Google it yourself and tell us why.

Your not going to get away with that. Please tell us why you can't get a correct measurement with the car on the ground. In case you have reading troubles I did not say measure with the car raised. I said that if you raise it a little it takes the pressure off the adjusting bolt for ease of turning. As far as loaded it means road ready not stuffed full of luggage but I figured most people would understand that as a given. I also like to take into consideration the drivers weight. You and google should see what a 250-300lb driver does to ride height.

You know you are wrong, which is why you re trying to change it.

Figure it out yourself, or better yet you tell use why you know better than the people that designed and built the thing.

Why do you take part of a response and twist it. Can you not read the rest of the reply. ALL MEASUREMENTS SHOULD BE DONE WITH THE CAR LOADED AND ON ALL FOURS. I was working as a line mechanic for Dodge starting in 1965 and my father worked in Chrysler design engineerring in the 50s and 60s. So I guess you could say I have some experience in how these cars were put together.

You said in the air, not me. You did not say "take the weight off" till you go called out.

Big difference.

What happens to the camber when you pick it up and put it down?

How does that affect toe?

As for being a line mechanic, BFD. There is a reason I don't let "mechanics" touch my stuff, they got a bunch of half assed get it out the door cause I'm being paid book rate cheats.

I've never had a problem setting ride height on the ground. I've never galled up the threads on my adjusters because I A. clean then, B. lube them and C. use hand tools. I do not just run them up with an impact and oh [censored] I broke it, tell the customer it came in that way and they need to pay to fix it mechanic stunts. But doing it properly would kill your book rate.

I'd put experience and tools against you and your google anytime. By the time you read the instructions I'd have the job done to the customers satisfaction with no fear of a complaint or comeback. If you had ever worked as a mechanic for a living you would know how full of crap your statements are. As far as what does raising a car up and setting it back down there is a little more to it than that. Such as bouncing the car to settle the suspension. and shaking it side to side. But you don't realize these are things your google doesn't tell you. That's where experience comes in. By the way we are talking ride height not alignment. Ride height is always set before any further alignment. So moving the car up and down has no bearing on caster,camber or toe which is set after the height.

1973 Dodge FSM

Doesn’t say to adjust in the air if you want to bee specific , but but but

Trust me I get it - Much easier to spin those bolts , and not strip , with the weight off the control arms

On R , W and Y carlines clean all foreign material from bottom of lower ball joint assemblies and bot- tom of torsion bar front anchors.
(2) Jounce vehicle several times releasing it on the downward motion.
(3) On all models except R, W and Y carl¡nes measure distance from lowest point of one adjusting blade to floor (measurement A) and from lowest point of steering knuckle arm, at the centerline, on same side (measurement B) to floor (Fig. 2). Mea- sure only one side at a time.
On R, W and Y carl¡nes measure distance from lowest point of front torsion bar anchor at the rear of lower control arm flange to floor (measurement A) and from lowest point of ball joint housing on same side (measurement B) to floor (Fig. 3) measure only one side at a time.
The difference between A and B (A always being greater than B) ¡s the front suspension height.
(4) Refer to Specifications and adjust if necessary by turning torsion bar adjusting bolt clockwise to increase height and counterclockwise to decrease height.
(5) After each adjustment, jounce vehicle before remeasuring. Both sides should be measured even though only one side has been adjusted.
(6) Measure other side in same manner. The max- imum allowable difference in suspension height from side to side is 1/8 inch on all carlines.

I have a question on measuring the ride height using the instruction in the FSM. When it states measuring the distance from the lowest point of one of the "adjusting blade" to the floor.
Is this the spot that the measurement is taken from? See the red arrow in my picture.

^ yes.

as for the FSM, it reads to me like it doesn't specify how to actually adjust the anchor bolt, weight on or off, it just specifies how to measure ride height.
once the car rolls about 3 feet the suspension will be fine to check and if it's actually getting aligned the front wheels will be on plates so it doesn't really matter.

i put a smear of grease on the ball and cup of the adjuster when i put that stuff back together...and i adjusted height with weight on the tires with no problems. I've also jacked the front up a bit (when the old crusty parts were on the car) to get some weight off the tires...so i could use a regular 1/2" drive ratchet and turn the bolt faster/easier...

OK, now that I realize We have defective adjuster block and/or screws, who is the best source?

Thanks, Joe

NOS if you can find them 2275468 standard 2275469 HD
http://collectorsautosupply.com/customSe...hnumber=2275468

When you say defective. I assume that the threads are stripped?

Put in new with lube, when I tried to remove, all I could do to undo by hand.
Threads on the adj. bolt were galled.

The block looks like a tool steel item, nice appearing part, same with the bolt. But......

I looked to see if I could find where purchased, but no luck yet.
Usually buy from Mancini, Jegs or Summit.

Joe