Trouble with oil leaks in a 440

I am getting just as tired of a leaky oil pan as I am hearing people say "They all do that." 440 based 493, currently with a 6 quart pan.
What the heck, man ?? I have had a few different pans on the car, different bolts, used no washers, flat washers, lock washers...I have always used the Mopar Performance windage tray & gasket sandwich: 2 gaskets and steel tray. I don't officially "torque" the oil pan bolts but do tighten them just until the gaskets squish a bit, just like I've done with every other engine. This one weeps oil though, especially after I've been out romping on it. I do have a working PCV in it.The rear main is dry, The left side too. I checked the screw in plug under the fuel pump and it is dry there. I get oil dripping off of some bolts but not others. I have always installed the bolts in dry, no sealant.
I have heard of some drastic measures....Ever heard of "The Right Stuff" ?? I have never used it but I hear that it is some super sealing cement-like gasket sealer. That would be great if I never planned on removing the pan again. I've read that it sets up so hard that stamped steel stuff like valve covers, timing covers and oil pans get bent when you try to remove them later.
Is there a better way to go? I want to retain some type of windage tray. I did buy one of those plastic windage trays from Jeg's, the self sealing ones that are similar to those plastic transmission pan gaskets. What has been your experience with them? Good?
Finally....I have always used a high volume oil pump in my engines. Some claim it is overkill and costs power, that the stock pump puts out enough volume and pressure. What is your opinion on this?
Thank you for any help that you can give.

Are you positive the oil isn't tracking down from somewhere else? Fuel pump gasket? Valve cover?

They sell UV dye kits for finding oil leaks.

Was the pan rail modified for crank clearance? Wouldn't expect it on a 493 but...

Also, some thread sealer on the bolts won't hurt, possibly weeping through there although they should be blind holes.

I do need to take a closer look. The timing cover seals well and the fuel pump seems to as well. The oil pan was new when I installed it but of the three that I have had over the years, they all have leaked even though they are not modified.
Thread sealer...Yeah, it could be cheap insurance. Thank you.

I hear your pain, my son and I just finished putting a new milodon pan and windage tray on our 440. Ours leaked at the rear and my worst fear was the rear seal too!

Crank flange was dry, so was flex plate and converter.
This is the third pan, because of damage when removing the others for different reasons, tray too.

On the plastic tray; we thought 'great idea', not so much for us, leaked a lot at the rear and I think it was because they were designed for a pan with flat rails, not like the standard MOPAR pans withe the stiffening dimples.
Maybe they are designed differently now, this was a few years back...

Also tried Andy F's pan rail flanges with a new dimpled pan, this also didn't work out as the flanges are best used with pans NOT dimpled.
I think with some modifications to the design they can be effective, though.

We usually use Hi-Tack on just about all our gaskets, both the spray and brush type with excellent results.

This time I noticed a slight difference in the height of the rear seal housing versus the block's pan rail so I filled that gap with "The Right Stuff" then used "Hi-Tack" on the rest of the sealing surfaces.

As I noted in another post, the Milodon windage tray needs some cutting to fit over a standard pickup, probably designed for theirs.
Not hard, just overlayed old tray and marked the difference.

Haven't put oil in yet, sorting out some other problems, I used to tighten by feel too, this time I set per MOP's 200 inch#s I was surprise how much tighter they were versus "Feel".

Good luck...Joe

PS the two pan bolt holes into the rear seal housing on ours were "open" holes, I used some sealant on those.

The holes are blind, no thread sealer required. Are you using RTV? I usually put a little dab/smear where the timing cover meets the oil pan rail, same for where the rear main seal meets the oil pan rail. I've been using Superformance gaskets and they're really nice.

For the record I've never had an issue with a leaky oil pan on a B/RB engine, so not sure where the "they all do that" comments are coming from.

After you make sure the oil isn't coming from some where else, they Superformance gaskets. They are really nice.

I used the Superformance gaskets and followed his instructions to a "T". I use a thin layer of Permatex Ultra Seal on all surfaces. I use an inch lbs torque wrench on the pan and valve covers these days. Looks good so far down there with about 1500 miles since the overhaul.

I also used the pan rail stiffeners from Hughes. You know, the 4 piece steel strips fitted to match the oil pan bolt holes and effectively thicken the pan rail. I also made sure my pan rail holes were not dimpled from previous torqueing.

My buddy, Roger also discovered that the two pan bolts that screw into the rear sear retainer and shorter. His actually were bottoming out in the casting. He had to R&R his pan a half a dozen times to get his leaks to stop.

Be careful not to use too long of pan bolts on the block pan rail either or you can break through or crack the crank case dimples for them.

As far as oil pumps go. I'm running the Milidon pump with a stock cast iron top. It pumps more oil than a stock pump and takes less power to drive than the typical thicker, high volume pump due to the shape of the gearator.

I fought oil leaks on two different 440 cars.
The first was the worst. Replaced the timing cover seal. That helped. Did the oil pan twice before I realized something VERY weird.

That old pan had about 6 pinholes (tiny, tiny pinholes) where the baffles were spot welded to the pan!!! I was lucky to catch that! Pan went in the garbage, new pan.

Replaced the rear main.

The next car wasn't so bad, but it did need a new rear main.

One thing about windage trays...DONT dick around with the pan, two gaskets, the tray, the motor, and RTV at the same time!!!

Get a piece of plywood and mark the bolt pattern with the pan. Drill the holes.
Lay the tray on the plywood--you will probably have to cut out an area in the plywood so that the tray lays flat.

Now you have a gluing template, I have used mine twice, save it.

Now you can RTV the gaskets to the tray, lay the pan on top, and bolt and nut the assembly together for a day. Do NOT RTV the tray to the pan at this point--the oil pump pickup will be a problem if you do!

You just eliminated all sorts of juggling and aligning of holes while trying to bolt the pan, tray to the motor.

You also just eliminated the chance of gaskets squishing out during torquing of the pan.

I think some body makes a tray with built in gaskets, that's basically what you are making here.


Whether you use RTV on the pan rail during assembly is up to you, but I don't, except for a slight finger dab on the block where the front cover meets, and rear seal retainer junctions.

Try this.

Thanks guys...
I have a habit of "gluing" gaskets to the steel surfaces before assembly. It does save from movement during assembly. The gasket & tray sandwich seems like a design that requires more skill than average to seal properly.

as said the bolt holes are blind, but I have found putting the Right stuff on the threads has stopped my leaks.

Run High mileage oil it works! Also use new gaskets and good old fashioned Indian head sealer .You can also try thin bead of silicone for Oil . Also if that 440 does not have enough ventilation you will chase this issue until end of time

Do you really think your not as good as mechanic, hot rodder, than your average UAW union worker?
AKA aside, if the factory can assemble the motors with the windage trays and make sure they don't leak you can too
I use a silicone sealer that is marked "adhesive sealant" on the tube to prevent leaks between the block, oil pan, windage tray and gaskets
Don't gob it on I use a very thin skim layer between each part and put the bolts in right away and tighten them down enough to not squish the gaskets out between the block, oil pan and windage tray and let it dry long enough to set before adding oil and running the motor
Let us know what you do and the results

Funny...

"Do you really think your not as good as mechanic, hot rodder, than your average UAW union worker?"

Yeah, but I don't do 25 engines a day either!

Everyone that has put a number of engines together has had a leak or two in their builds. Myself included . I had never had a rear main leak until I stated so on a posting here on Moparts. Next build , rear main leaked like a sieve. Don't know why, replaced the rear seal , no leak. Had a oil pan leak, thought it was the rear main on another engine, It was caused by the girdle studs hitting the back of the pan. Ball peen hammer fixed that. That brings me to question if you put a girdle on or changed to main studs in your engine? You can fix the leak, Most repair shops have some snot nose kid doing that kind of work.

I had what I thought was an oil pan leak on a 440 years ago, it turned out to be a hairline crack on the timing cover. The crack was just behind the reinforcing plate for the oil pan gasket, in the 90 degree corner.

I thought it was just me...I dropped in a freshly built 512 low deck stroker into the car last year and on the second drive out this season started noticing spotting on the garage floor. Found a couple of the bolts to be covered in oil with no visible oil coming down the sides of the block. Motor was built using a Milodon road race pan and windage tray with an ARP stainless bolt kit. Bolts are 1/2" long and upon inspection many of them were only hand tight. Tightening I started to see the pan dimple so I stopped and picked up Andy's rail kit from Mancini. Got new stainless 3/4" long bolts with lock washers and put it all back together without taking the pan off (1" bolts would bottom out). Haven't been under the car yet to check it out.

Also noticed oil dripping from the bell housing. I pulled the inspection cover off and saw a drip hanging off the bottom of the crank flange, but everything else was dry so I ruled out a leaky rear main. Must be coming from the top somewhere in the back, but haven't had time to track that one down yet.

Motor has a little over a thousand miles on it. Really annoying...

I use studs on about everything. Takes away a LOT of nonsense with blind holes. I used a stock pan and tray on my latest 400. I used "The Right Stuff", SPARINGLY, and SCE gaskets. The engine doesn't leak, don't ask me about the trans...

Factory pan bolts, torqued to the right spec. I used the 3M yellow glue and let set a day till dry, No leaks. I think what ever you use for glue make sure it's set up before putting oil on it. Had a Max Wedge long ago, some pan bolts would be missing after each race, so I'd really tighten them, same thing again. Then on a whim I torqued to what the manual said and they never losened up again.

I was always confident that I did the right thing and blamed leaks on a poor factory design. I've sealed up transmission pans using that Mopar rigid plastic gasket, that is what led me to believe that trying something more modern for the oil pan might help.
I usually do attach the gaskets to each side of the windage tray and let them set up. The idea of bolting it all to a piece of plywood is interesting. In a similar way, I could attach it all to a spare 440 I have on an engine stand.
Studs? I like that idea....except for the area at the very front above the K member. Access is tight there as you all know.
In 2004 when I first built this engine, I had it on a stand and used pan head, allen fasteners. I thought they looked cool but later when I wanted to pull the timing cover to do a cam swap, I found that the 4 bolts from the pan to the timing cover were a real pisser to get to. The hex socket for the allen was like a deep well socket. I had to cut down an allen wrench and back those out 1/8 of a turn at a time. Its funny how you can screw yourself up when you don't think ahead.

Plug the breather. Apply low air pressure through the PCV fitting. If you can put your finger over the air source and stop air flow that will be enough air pressure to work. The leak will show itself quickly. Oil will drip, ooze, stream from the leak area. Easiest way I've ever found oil leaks.
Doug

and you only need about 10# of pressure, if that. start at 5 and see what happens. this is super easy if done on the stand before installation, but perfect for in the car diagnosis as well.

Great idea will try it next time we get a difficult leaker in

Superformance gaskets worked for me; my engine was bone dry last year for the first time ever. Since then, I've developed a few small drips on the floor that I need to check out. In years past, no matter what I did, I always had some slight leak from the get go.

I truly believe that in the future, I'll use nothing but Superformance gaskets for everything. Any time that I've used them, they've just been so much better than anything else. This year, my carb gaskets were switched from standard Holley blues. I've had the carb on and off the car and apart a lot and the things don't stick at all and still look brand new.

FWIW I don't use anything on my oil pan, windage tray, block, etc. Just the spots I mentioned where the timing cover and rear main seal retainer meet the block

Noted!