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Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring

Posted By: p d'ro

Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 03:54 PM

Hi,
After reading the thread on fried wires, I plan on running a 10 gauge wire with 14 gauge fusible link from Alt bat to Starter bat. I do not have the proper crimping tool, connectors, etc. and probably would not use it again after buying so it doesn't make sense to do so. And I want to make sure it is done correctly.
Does anyone know of a commercial source to by a prefabbed bypass wire?
Otherwise, I would pay someone to make me one. Please PM me.
Thanks, Pete
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 04:02 PM

Pete, a welding supply shop or likely any mechanical shop could crimp some good ring terminals onto a length of wire for you for cheap & I'd have em solder it too. EDIT as you know it will render the ammeter inaccurate. Just me I would keep it as is & clean ALL terminals/connections including ground paths & do Nachos' bulkhead bypass & one guy was adament on using a 30 amp plug in fuse, one of those colored plastic ones with the 2 male plug in lugs & to keep spares handy in the main line to the bulkhead from the battery. advantage is they would blow instantly if there is an issue & when when my '66 dart full fielded the FL didn't even do its job & go open & the wires were melted/shriveled from the excess amperage.
Posted By: 71vert340

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 04:59 PM

I like your suggestion rapid Robert. I've got a similar situation. I've started putting the dash harness in to my 74 Charger. I noticed to red wire lug to the ammeter was cut off. I looked at the engine harness and noticed a 10 gauge red wire from the battery to the one post of the starter relay. On the other post of the relay, there's a red wire (10 gauge) running from the relay through the cowl to be connected to the ammeter, completely bypassing the bulkhead connector block. The only problem is there's no fuse anywhere in it. I was going to hook the original red wire up to the ammeter but after reading several posts on this, I think I'll leave the bypass wire hooked to the ammeter and just install a fuse or fusible link in the red wire bypass. Should it go between the battery and the starter relay or should it go between the relay and the ammeter?
Terry
Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 05:42 PM

I am trying to keep stock and do not have many accessories, just a few gauges. I still have a stock alternator of unknown amperage for 67 rt 440. When I get my deoxit in mail I will pull bulkhead connectors and see how they look and clean. If required I may have to buy the crimping tool if any male or female ends look suspect.
I live in the dc metro and we do not have things like welding shops, radiator shops, muffler shops, etc. unfortunately. Again, I will have to think about keeping the ammeter and going the MAD direction or simply running the jumper if I see evidence of heat. Good to have options.
Posted By: 4406bbl

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 06:25 PM

A vise or vise grip pliers will crimp them just fine. A hammer and concrete work too, or just solder them.
Posted By: 4406bbl

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 06:49 PM

Need more ideas, drill a hole in a cheap pair of pliers, smaller than the crimp, smackem with a hammer. A dull chistle and a hammer works too.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 06:54 PM

Quote:
I think I'll leave the bypass wire hooked to the ammeter and just install a fuse or fusible link in the red wire bypass. Should it go between the battery and the starter relay or should it go between the relay and the ammeter?
it would have to go between the relay/ammeter (like it was OE) cuz if it went inbetween batt to relay the high amp flow from batt to relay to starter when cranking (if I am reading this right) would blow it instantly.
Posted By: nomore65BelvJim

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 06:59 PM

A decent crimping tool isnt expensive.
Far superior crimp to pliers, vicegrips or even concrete wrench

ratcheting crimping tool
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By 4406bbl
Need more ideas, drill a hole in a cheap pair of pliers, smaller than the crimp, smackem with a hammer. A dull chistle and a hammer works too.


5 gallons of gas and a match will fix your electrical problems forever, too.

Neither is the proper way of doing.
Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 08:04 PM

This reminds me of my old neighborhood where everyone had aluminum wiring and the only approved method was a copalum connector, and the tool to do it was super expensive, yet electricians were getting big $$ per receptacle to recrimp these connections. Luckily only my 220 were aluminum and not in need of fixing.
If I need to redo the connections in the bulkhead I am confident I can do it with the right tool. Probably not going to buy it just to do the jumper. Hopefully I can clean the bulkhead and it will look fine, and figure out why my ammeter showing such a high charge upon acceleration.
I recently added an air/flow gauge but am almost positive it was connected to ignition 12V.
Posted By: 71vert340

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 08:39 PM

Good point RR. I wasn't thinking about the amperage draw. I believe I'll use a fuse under the dash instead of the fusible link because it's much more visible. In the 74 Charger, the starter relay is on the cowl next to the brake booster. It's really cramped in that area. A 25 - 30 amp fuse should work or should I go smaller? It's a stock charging system. Thanks.
Terry
Posted By: crackedback

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 09:03 PM

I make those on a regular basis.

8ga wire with a 12ga fusible link. Around 35 delivered in most cases
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 09:06 PM

I think an air ticket from Venezuela to MD is not lot expensive LOL

check what you have at this moment then take your decisions... untill that you are working over an unknown stage
Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 09:07 PM

Originally Posted By crackedback
I make those on a regular basis.

8ga wire with a 12ga fusible link. Around 35 delivered in most cases

That seems fair. I will let you know after I dig around under my hood this weekend.
If I have a low 35 amp alternator would this be too thick of a fusible link? I am hoping I have a 50-60 amp but am unsure what it came with. Will check part # tonite.
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/07/17 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By Supercuda
Originally Posted By 4406bbl
Need more ideas, drill a hole in a cheap pair of pliers, smaller than the crimp, smackem with a hammer. A dull chistle and a hammer works too.


5 gallons of gas and a match will fix your electrical problems forever, too.

Neither is the proper way of doing.


that's what I would call a GOOD IGNITION SYSTEM!!! LOL
Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 12:21 AM

Originally Posted By NachoRT74
I think an air ticket from Venezuela to MD is not lot expensive LOL

check what you have at this moment then take your decisions... untill that you are working over an unknown stage

Ah, Venezuela. My good friend and old man baseball team manager is Luis Aparicio lll, son of the Sox and Oriole great and hall of fame shortstop. Great Venezuelan.
I have what look to be relatively good condition bulkhead connectors. I did not pull off as I wiggled and squeezed and did not want to break anything. Should they just pull off with coersion?
The battery positive has two wires, one to starter and one going to a firewall post. From this two go away thru firewall and under dash. One powers stereo and the otherone disappears into a maze. Another goes to lowest bulkhead connector. So I do have accessories powered off bat.
Is this firewall post stock??

Attached picture IMG_0618.JPG
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 12:45 AM

Terry - this gets confusing because its two different issues in one thread, but I'll try.
Originally Posted By 71vert340

..I noticed to red wire lug to the ammeter was cut off.
.. a 10 gauge red wire from the battery to the one post of the starter relay.
... On the other post of the relay, there's a red wire (10 gauge) running from the relay through the cowl to be connected to the ammeter, completely bypassing the bulkhead connector block. The only problem is there's no fuse anywhere in it.

From this I get:
1 Ammeter is not being used
2. Battery is hooked to a terminal on the starter relay
3. A 10 gage wire is attached to a different terminal on the relay and goes through the firewall but is not attached to anything.
Yes? If so, identify what each terminal is on the relay.

Quote:
I was going to hook the original red wire up to the ammeter but after reading several posts on this, I think I'll leave the bypass wire hooked to the ammeter and just install a fuse or fusible link in the red wire bypass. Should it go between the battery and the starter relay or should it go between the relay and the ammeter?

This is confusing to me. If the ammeter is not used there still should be a wire that connects the battery to the main junction. It doesn't matter if it goes through the firewall or the connector. It must have a fusible link.

Take a look at Charging system operation and see what matches up.
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 01:14 AM

P d'ro
In your first post you talked about a bypass. But in other posts you've mentioned a problem and also
Originally Posted By p d'ro
I am trying to keep stock and do not have many accessories, just a few gauges. I still have a stock alternator of unknown amperage for 67 rt 440.


Considering the situation, first solve the problem.
Look at the diagrams, look at your car.
Is there anything wired in from the battery to the ammeter?
There should be nothing. Ah! I see you have found there is stuff. This may be the source of your problem.
To understand why, take a look at the drawing showing running with the battery fully charged. Draw in some equipment attached to the battery or starter relay and you see what happens.

The question remains whether any of that is the reason the current follows rpm., then there may be a bad battery or something like that.
It also could be the voltage regulator is getting bad information (its not sensing the actual voltage). To check that, you'll need a voltmeter. Measure voltage at the Ignition wire side of the voltage regulator. Compare that with voltage at other locations (battery).
It also could be that the voltage regulator has failed internally and Field current is not controlled. Maybe Nacho can speak to this. But for example if the alternator gets more voltage the alternator output will be higher voltage than the battery can float to. So electricity flows from the altenator thats say 16 or 17 volts to the poor battery at 14.5 Volts. Eventually the battery gets too hot and looses water...


Quote:
When I get my deoxit in mail I will pull bulkhead connectors and see how they look and clean. If required I may have to buy the crimping tool if any male or female ends look suspect.
I live in the dc metro and we do not have things like welding shops, radiator shops, muffler shops, etc. unfortunately. Again, I will have to think about keeping the ammeter and going the MAD direction or simply running the jumper if I see evidence of heat. Good to have options.


Cleaning terminals is great. You will not really see the crimped ends unless you remove the terminals from the connectors. In your situation I would leave them in place unless they are loose or have obvious problem.

If you don't have a multi-meter - that is the tool to buy!

If you bypass the ammeter, you will lose an useful diagnostic tool. I don't see a reason for it in your situation, especially with everything staying stock. If you drive at night, a headlight relay system is worth considering. You'll have to hide the relays to keep it stock. (Rob who posted about making you wires, can make you the relay harness.) But this is off - topic. First figure out what is happening.

One last one. It is possible the battery is just simply too low in charge. Again a voltmeter will indicate this. In which case the battery just needs enough water and is allowed to charge slowly. A battery charger or letting the car idle.

Here's the catch, this is the one that plagued Nacho. If its because the alternator can't charge it at idle and the car idles alot, then sooner than later you need a better alternator. In this case the battery is getting drained just by running at idle. The ammeter will show this. Its mostly a problem when accessories (heater, lights, and maybe worst is A/C)
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 01:30 AM

Originally Posted By p d'ro

I have what look to be relatively good condition bulkhead connectors. I did not pull off as I wiggled and squeezed and did not want to break anything. Should they just pull off with coersion?

Each connector has to have the plastic latch on top and bottom gently unhooked. Then wiggle while pulling. Take your time.
Quote:

The battery positive has two wires, one to starter and one going to a firewall post. From this two go away thru firewall and under dash. One powers stereo and the otherone disappears into a maze. Another goes to lowest bulkhead connector. So I do have accessories powered off bat.
Is this firewall post stock??

Probably not!
Each bulkhead connector location has a letter designation in the shop manual diagram. Might be able to tell you what was supposed to be there by the location and wire colors.
Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 02:05 AM

Originally Posted By Mattax
Originally Posted By p d'ro

I have what look to be relatively good condition bulkhead connectors. I did not pull off as I wiggled and squeezed and did not want to break anything. Should they just pull off with coersion?

Each connector has to have the plastic latch on top and bottom gently unhooked. Then wiggle while pulling. Take your time.
Quote:

The battery positive has two wires, one to starter and one going to a firewall post. From this two go away thru firewall and under dash. One powers stereo and the otherone disappears into a maze. Another goes to lowest bulkhead connector. So I do have accessories powered off bat.
Is this firewall post stock??

Probably not!
Each bulkhead connector location has a letter designation in the shop manual diagram. Might be able to tell you what was supposed to be there by the location and wire colors.


Ok, both god to know. I will try to unhook and wiggle free.
I assume I will leave the post and connections as it has been good for 10 years.
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 02:49 AM

Its not good. Its not a good design. It may or may not be the part of the reason for the problem. After solving the problem, then fix the design. That might mean not using the ammeter, but even so, it must be done right or the problems remain.
Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 04:26 AM

Originally Posted By Mattax
Its not good. Its not a good design. It may or may not be the part of the reason for the problem. After solving the problem, then fix the design. That might mean not using the ammeter, but even so, it must be done right or the problems remain.

I Ssume the prior owner set up the post as he installed the stereo system n the glove box. Do you have any idea what car this post part is from?
Posted By: 4406bbl

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 06:49 AM

I don't think you can remove those wires in the bulkhead by depressing plastic and wiggling. I have always had to insert a small thin blade, right where the little notch is in the plastic to depress the copper tang on the female wire end, the male connectors require a squeeze to remove them. Once you get them out you will see that a cheap crimp tool will do you no good, as they are made for the cheap yellow, red, blue crimps, not factory stuff. You can make a nice crimper out off a cheap pair of pliers drilled to make it round, and finish it off with a dull chistle, right in the groove to tighten it up. If anybody knows of a correct tool for mopar ends im all ears. So make your own tool or solder. A crimp made in a vise, or with a hammer is way tighter than anything you will do with crimp pliers, no safety issue there.
Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By 4406bbl
I don't think you can remove those wires in the bulkhead by depressing plastic and wiggling. I have always had to insert a small thin blade, right where the little notch is in the plastic to depress the copper tang on the female wire end, the male connectors require a squeeze to remove them. Once you get them out you will see that a cheap crimp tool will do you no good, as they are made for the cheap yellow, red, blue crimps, not factory stuff. You can make a nice crimper out off a cheap pair of pliers drilled to make it round, and finish it off with a dull chistle, right in the groove to tighten it up. If anybody knows of a correct tool for mopar ends im all ears. So make your own tool or solder. A crimp made in a vise, or with a hammer is way tighter than anything you will do with crimp pliers, no safety issue there.

So I am asking how to remove the entire row of connectors so I can look inside at the male and female connectors. The large plastic piece (three of them) that are inserted into the bulkhead.
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 03:17 PM

damn! to much to say LOL... I'll try to grabb the essentials of this without touch every post a lot

I'm not a Baseball big fan however I know who are the Aparicio's dinasty LOL. I'm more FOOTBALL fan ( the real one not the eggshaped ball one you play LOL ) and being my family from Spain, is kinda logic wink.

1... remove the bulkhead conectors is fairly tricky but still easy. Playing with that won't damage anything. Just need to pry up the side retentions while pulling out the conector once at a time. just do it and check the conditions... if something comes wrong will mean was to fail sooner or later so better fix it now before a biggest and expensive fail. Play with these plugs won't mean you are dealing with any terminal.

2... why are you worrying at this moment for a crimping tool and terminals if we don't know if you actually will need them ? although is not something hard to get, a nice one, that's not the ACTUAL deal on this... yet. Nice tools and correct terminals same as replacement plugs are around easy to get... is just about the money and click on buy... no need anything to be analized on this... yet.

3... the only way to know what is that or the other wire is trace it from end to end. In fact the only way to know what you got is dissasemblying. If you run the straight wire from alt to starter relay post you are bypassing ammeter and releasing loads from some spots but not fixiong actually anything. You are hidding the "fail" or whatever is wrong ( if there is really something wrong ). So you will be cheating yourself. Is like put a 150 speedo face decal over a 120 miles speedo to be able to say you are running at 75 MPH where you are really still at 60 MPH

4...
-I hate MADelectrical mods and statements... already pm'd you about that and why. Wrong statements from them and you haven't got burnt anything yet to drill out the bulkhead and heavily modify anything.
-Stock system can be run safelly with some touchs here and there, some small upgrades and still will work everything as factory designed... they were just wrong on the rates handled ( alt and terminals ) but not on the main design. Is just about IF YOU want to run your car like factory designed it.


5... need to note EVEN WITH A HIGHER OPUTPUT ALT, the stock system EVEN on bulkhead conections and not being bypassed up to the amm everything will be safe, at least safer than with the low output iddle alt. This sounds contradictory, yes, BUT a stock car on regular conditions road ( not rain, no AC and still at nights ) won't suck more than 25 amps. That load is able to be handled by the packard terminals easily. The problem is when the alt is not able to give this juice at iddle ( an oldie stock alt 35-40 amps rated barelly gives 15-20 amps iddling ). SO, when you give gas, the alt will gives what the batt lost on the previous stage. This will raise the ammeter up allmost to the max reading, some to still feed the car demands, some to refill the batt. IF you have an alt to give the car demand between 25-30 amps at iddle ( once again on regular basic car and road driving conditions ), the batt will never suck the load to be recharged, so EVEN THE STOCK packard terminals are able to handle this, BUT JUST with an upgraded alt feeding at iddle. Of course if you beging to increase the car demand, with wipers, heater or AC ( mostly due the blower, not the compressor ), this demand will be higher, and is when packard terminals becomes on a weak spot. Also when the batt got discharged, SO that's the reason to save the packard terminals setup with the bulkhead parallel path OR full bypass. And getting wipers and Blower working an alt able to source up to 45-50 amps at iddle is a must. That's why thats my advice on this. We need an alt able to source EVERYTHING on car if is required at some point. Sometimes a max wiper speed and max blower speed with headligths sucks up to 60 amps!!!! but normally if its raining dog and cats you won't actually need max speed blower on AC, because it should be a bit cold outside. Low speeds uses to be enough to save from fogging the windshield and rest of glasses, depending how many persons are in cabin
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 04:27 PM

Originally Posted By 4406bbl
If anybody knows of a correct tool for mopar ends im all ears.
I mentioned a good resource for correct tools and supplies in the Fried thread, its on the Civilian Jeep Forum Basic Wiring 101.

P d'ro started this discussion in the other thread, so he's seen that. In his situation, he has no tools or shop, and he needs to minimize on that.
The one the tool that will always be good for P d'ro to have around is a multi-meter.

p d'ro - The keys to the answering your questions are really in your hands now.
You have to identify the wires and where they go and come. Write it down, draw it out, and compare with the factory. Then see what has been changed and how that effects current flow.
Then with both a voltmeter (multimeter) and the ammeter, it will be fairly easy to collect the information that will reveal why ammeter follows the rpm.
See my previous post about what may be wrong and how to figure it out.
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 04:38 PM

Originally Posted By p d'ro
I Ssume the prior owner set up the post as he installed the stereo system n the glove box. Do you have any idea what car this post part is from?


LOL! I can not see your car!
But my point is not that this "post" is a bad design. There are many good ways to make a connection through sheet metal wall.
My point is the circuit is badly designed.
Try to understand what is here. Start with the link with Nacho's drawings. Then make your own drawings. Use one of ours as a start if that is easier.
Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 04:44 PM

Originally Posted By Mattax
Originally Posted By 4406bbl
If anybody knows of a correct tool for mopar ends im all ears.
I mentioned a good resource for correct tools and supplies in the Fried thread, its on the Civilian Jeep Forum Basic Wiring 101.

P d'ro started this discussion in the other thread, so he's seen that. In his situation, he has no tools or shop, and he needs to minimize on that.
The one the tool that will always be good for P d'ro to have around is a multi-meter.

p d'ro - The keys to the answering your questions are really in your hands now.
You have to identify the wires and where they go and come. Write it down, draw it out, and compare with the factory. Then see what has been changed and how that effects current flow.
Then with both a voltmeter (multimeter) and the ammeter, it will be fairly easy to collect the information that will reveal why ammeter follows the rpm.
See my previous post about what may be wrong and how to figure it out.


I agree with everything posted by Nacho and Mattax and learned alot in the other thread.
I just have to figure out how the prior owner wired this. He was a capable mechanic and machinist who did some very nice work on this car before I got it, and it has been running well for 10 years before my VR went and now seem to be charging all the time.
I will draw out what I have, but there are is at least one bat + that goes thru firewall and disappears under dash that I can't trace.
My main issue now is pulling wires off of bulkhead without breaking anything and figuring out what my firewall connection is.
Again, does anyone have this firewall connection that I pictured?
Posted By: 71vert340

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 05:14 PM

Mattax, thanks for the reply. In my post, I said "off the other relay post" and should have said off the same relay post. Here's a photo of what I have. The red wire on the right goes to the battery. Originally it had a standard, cheap crimp terminal on the end. I crimped/soldered on a copper one and used heat shrink. The pink (red) fusible link on the left bypasses the bulkhead connector and goes through cowl right to ammeter. The blue/green fusible link on left is crimp/solder connected to the original, existing 10 gauge red wire which runs through the bulkhead connector. The original red wire to the ammeter which came through the bulkhead connector was disconnected, taped off. I was going to hook the original red wire through bulkhead block back up to ammeter and pull the bypass red wire out but now it sounds like I should leave the bypass one as I bought the car. Thoughts.
Terry

Attached picture 20170908_075558 (Small).jpg
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 05:14 PM

Originally Posted By p d'ro

My main issue now is pulling wires off of bulkhead without breaking anything and figuring out what my firewall connection is.
Again, does anyone have this firewall connection that I pictured?


yes, all A bodies and up to 70 B bodies uses same firewall setup. Is just about pry up a bit the side latches on every conector. Pry up one, pull it slightly to release it from that latch, then the same to the other one and VOILA!

and if get broken ( tipicall latches get broken on original old 40 years brittle conectors ), you can get every plastic conector in $15 rate. Yes I know is not about spend money without need for that, but if needed, the parts are there available.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 05:45 PM

Mattax good info. Good stuff Nacho, however! if the ball ain't oblong then it ain't a football
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 05:46 PM

Originally Posted By 71vert340
Mattax, thanks for the reply. In my post, I said "off the other relay post" and should have said off the same relay post. Here's a photo of what I have. The red wire on the right goes to the battery. Originally it had a standard, cheap crimp terminal on the end. I crimped/soldered on a copper one and used heat shrink. The pink (red) fusible link on the left bypasses the bulkhead connector and goes through cowl right to ammeter. The blue/green fusible link on left is crimp/solder connected to the original, existing 10 gauge red wire which runs through the bulkhead connector. The original red wire to the ammeter which came through the bulkhead connector was disconnected, taped off. I was going to hook the original red wire through bulkhead block back up to ammeter and pull the bypass red wire out but now it sounds like I should leave the bypass one as I bought the car. Thoughts.
Terry


sorry I missed your posts

you need just to run a straight wire between amm and alt same as you did on the red wire and you are done. Use the same provision you run the wire between starter relay and ammeter.

Actally the alt side gets more stress than the batt wire. You saved just the 30% of the problem

You can reinstall or not the original red wire 12 gauge to ammeter and will give you more load headroom on wiring, although the 10 gauge wire bypass should be enough, specially if not AC. HOWEVER if you decide to get back the original wire up to ammeter will run both in just one fuselink. Could splice both red wires on engine bay side into one fuse link, 14 gauge.

If you decide not to hook it back, simply remove the blue 16 gauge fuse link from starter relay and from the harness red wire and done. No need for that fuse link there anymore

In my car has being running dual fuse link like you have at this moment, but thats not healthy in case of a short.
Posted By: justinp61

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 05:48 PM

I made a tool to remove the connectors from bulkhead connectors out of an old fingernail file. I ground the sides of the tip to make a narrow tongue to reach in and release the tab. Not that it matters but the file I used has a plastic handle making it easier on my hand and to hold on to. I haven't used in fifteen years to remove a connector but do occasionally file a hang nail with it. lol

Last year I added a small GM one wire alternator to my dart and the only thing I did was run a #6 wire from the alternator to the battery, along with the factory wire that feeds through the bulkhead. My ammeter still works to some extent but doesn't have the swings it did before. Best of all my lights are bright at idle.
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 05:56 PM

Originally Posted By RapidRobert
Mattax good info. Good stuff Nacho, however! if the ball ain't oblong then it ain't a football





stirthepot grin whistling grin
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 05:59 PM

Noted!
Posted By: crackedback

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 06:10 PM

I'm not a fan of the exact mad electric approach.

IMO, put a wire around on it, make sure the bulkhead/connectors are in good shape and leave all the factory wiring alone. Bypass the ammeter, run a voltmeter, and move on. Improves the poor charge path of the factory wiring.

Feel free to argue away regarding the multiple approaches that are suggested, pick one and go.
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 06:16 PM

Terry,
Maybe I'll have time to draw out what I think you're describing tonight. What is the car? I *thought* I saw some factory diagrams with 2 fusible links in the system. Maybe one was for the high current side of the horn relay? I don't remember. The point is that it possibly a second one belongs in the system somewhere.

Test your ammeter's internals for low resistance before using it. Also also check for ground short. The PO may have bypassed it out of irrational fear, or for a good reason, like it failed.
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 06:20 PM

I have seen 3 fuselinks setups, but none being parallel. They use to be to the shunted systems on laters cars.

1 for the inner splice, one for the starter relay and the other one to... I can't recall. LOL. I have diagrams around from te Haynes manual
Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By NachoRT74
Originally Posted By p d'ro

My main issue now is pulling wires off of bulkhead without breaking anything and figuring out what my firewall connection is.
Again, does anyone have this firewall connection that I pictured?


yes, all A bodies and up to 70 B bodies uses same firewall setup. Is just about pry up a bit the side latches on every conector. Pry up one, pull it slightly to release it from that latch, then the same to the other one and VOILA!

and if get broken ( tipicall latches get broken on original old 40 years brittle conectors ), you can get every plastic conector in $15 rate. Yes I know is not about spend money without need for that, but if needed, the parts are there available.

Ok. It looks
Like my firewall post that I shared an image of is just like the one pictured above. If it is a stock 70
Set up
i will just leave it even though my car is relatively correct under the hood.
Posted By: 71vert340

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 08:09 PM

So Here's what I have. Some more pics to help explain and a drawing (a rough one) I made. I forgot to mention the dealer installed a Mopar under dash A/C unit which I pulled out. I'm now reassembling the dash. I tested on my ohm meter between the black wire on alternator and the black wire that hooks up with the red wire, both bypassing the bulkhead connector block, to the back of the Ammeter. Only 1.2 ohms on bypass black wire between alternator and ammeter. The dash harness black wire is still hooked to the ammeter also (both black wires on same ammeter post. You can see the red disconnected wire in the pic of the back of the ammeter which my blue pen is pointing to. That's the one from the bulkhead connector block. The car worked fine but the non working a/c unit was installed then. Only the fan in the unit blew air. Since everything is apart and I'm just getting ready to put dash in, now's the time to repair anything. Thanks for your patience. Seems like we all have similar questions. Didn't mean to hijack post but we all seem to have the same problems with these old systems.
Terry

Attached picture 20170908_104948 (Small).jpg
Attached picture 20170908_105201 (Small).jpg
Attached picture 20170908_105452 (Medium).jpg
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 08:30 PM

if you aready have both wires running out of the bulkhead block you are just fine... the black wire from original underdash harness needs to be there to feed the main splice what spreads the power everywhere, so you should get two wires on black side of amm post. Is a must.

Mostly sure you have also the stock black wire running through the bulkhead block and all allong the engine harness up to the alt( so the same two black wires arriving to alt post )... that's fine too.

aftermarket AC box... wondering where are they sourcing it... I hope not from the bat side of the charging system and correctly from an acc source no matter if using a relay, but from alt side of the game. NOTHING must be sourced from batt side of the game with an ammeter in the line.

The blue 16 gauge fuse link is doing nothing if the other side is not arriving to the ammeter. You can remove it and will be safe of a wire hanging around hot without any function. Tape the red section of the engine side wire on forward lighting harness together with the rest of harness just to keep a clean view ( just a suggestion ). ALTHOUGHT you can hook that wire back to the ammeter as mentioned earlier, just that I would suggest get both red wires on engine bay side spliced together into a just one fuse link. As mentioned, will give you more headroom to the charging system being double wired. Don't need to get worried about the bulkhead conections anymore, they are safe with the parallel path. You have at this moment the same setup I have, also on a 74 Charger and I will correct the fuse link setup too, using just one instead two.

now get a 100 amps alt ( which should be to source up to 55 amps iddling if needed ) and enjoy your setup.
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/08/17 08:58 PM

Originally Posted By 71vert340
...and just install a fuse or fusible link in the red wire bypass. Should it go between the battery and the starter relay or should it go between the relay and the ammeter?
Terry


sorry once again, I didn't read this before

Either one physically COULD work... however the wire between the starter relay and the batt also feeds the starter motor solenoid through the relay. I don't know if the starter motor solenoid will suck enough power to blow the fuse link. IF NOT ( and I can't tell it really ) that could give me a great idea to link both red wires straight to the starter relay stud, then the single fuse link setup from there to feed the batt wire. Would make easier this splice job of the parallel wiring system.

I can't tell how much load sucks the stater solenoid by itself though to be hold by a 14 gauge wire. Maybe not specially if for some reason needs to get cranking several times or for long time. Maybe that's the reason why it's ( if we think the load running from batt ) after the relay and not before, but we are talking stock setup uses a 16 gauge fuse link, not 14.

Does somebody knows how much amps sucks the starter motor solenoid ? 20? 30? 40?
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 03:13 AM

Originally Posted By 71vert340
I tested on my ohm meter between the black wire on alternator and the black wire that hooks up with the red wire, both bypassing the bulkhead connector block, to the back of the Ammeter. Only 1.2 ohms on bypass black wire between alternator and ammeter. The dash harness black wire is still hooked to the ammeter also (both black wires on same ammeter post.


If your sketch is what you want to do, that will work if
the ammeter is good.
As Nacho wrote, remove the fusible link going nowhere. No need for a hot wire that is not terminated at something.

What I see in the photo as you found the wires is one with a ring terminal attached to the back of the ammeter. From what you wrote above, the wire from alternator power connects to the red from starter relay. What you call 'dash harness' we are assuming is a heavy wire to the main junction. (This is usually a welded splice). Attached is what I think the "as found" situation is.

Are you reinstalling the A/C? What year and model?

Attached picture Tasfound.JPG
Posted By: 71vert340

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 03:31 AM

Thanks for the drawing. I'm not re-installing the Mopar underdash A/C unit. The hoses were cut off in the engine compartment. They cut the dash frame to install it back in the 70s. They routed flexible hoses to the dash vents they had cut in the dash frame and stuffed it all up under the dash. They had to cut the glove box down to 1/3 of it's original depth. Going back stock for now but may install a Classic Air or other brand under dash unit soon. The holes are already in the cowl for the hoses. There's the option to use the unused wiring for it. Since the dash frame is out, now is the time to decide on the a/c seems like. The original plan was to use the Charger for nice weather long trips, so a/c would be needed. Now that we have a 2015 Shaker Challenger, it's hard to beat the modern conveniences for travel. We've used it on several trips over 1500 miles and it's nice.
Again, thanks.
Terry
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 01:04 PM

I'm understanding he got two black wires running to amm post, the original and the bulkhead bypass and really the red wire bypass running correctly to ammeter. Just the original red one is isolated and going nowhere.

I think I'm looking at these two parallel paths on the second pic he posted



So if Is like I think, he is correctly set.
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 02:05 PM

Nacho. Yes I see. I'm not sure.
Lets assume the hanging wires taped together are the pair through a grommet. Then you are correct.

In the next photo there is only one wire on the ammeter. That seems to be the original to the main splice.


So, the best connection will be to remove the nuts on the ammeter posts and attach the hanging wires. If the ammeter is OK, it can be put into the circuit.
Then the only question is what happened to the original alternator output wire? If the connection is OK, like you write, it can be left in parallel. If not, it should removed such that there is no hot wire floating around. Same as done on the battery side.


Attached picture Tasfound.JPG
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 04:13 PM

Well it seems the cluster and harness are out of the car together ( I can see the firewall hole for the bulkhead ), while parallel paths are still on car since they didn't get a quick disconect plug, and still on firewall on that visible grommet.

The black wire can't be disconected from amm post since the ammeter post needs to be used as juntion to get together the parallel path and the main splice to be sourced from alt. Diff story is to know what we do have on engine bay side, if stock alt wire is being used or not.

if ( same as the red one ) is not being used, better remove it to not keep a hot wire hanging around. On red wire case, just remove the 16 gauge fuse link is enough.

if bulkhead paths are still healthy on both, red and black, I DON'T SEE a reason to remove them. I'll keep using those. BUT once again, just using ONE fuse link... the 14 gauge one, so both reds spliced into just one fuse link.

My 74 got the AC harness running out of the bulkhead and is on that way from factory in every 74 with AC due the lack of cavities left on bulkhead once the interlock starting system bypass was added. So ON MY CAR I used this same grommet to run together the AC harness and parallel charging paths, just enlarging the AC grommet hole to fit all 4 wires through the rubber. I didn't want to cut my firewall for this just to run couple of wires whcih are not stock. If this car got factory AC ( which is my understanding ) the parallel paths are running throught that same factory AC harness grommet, just AC harness is not there. I think to recall the AC harness grommet is located just right there like the one shown on pic

In 74 the tach when optioned run by the ONLY cavity left by that year on bulkhead at NSS plug section

In previous years, the AC harness used the blower source ( also for heater ) at the only NSS cavity left and the compressor clutch at the only engine harness cavity left, while as far I recall tach run with a grommet... so it was reversed than 74s
Posted By: 71vert340

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 08:39 PM

Mattax, yes your "As Found" drawing is correct as it now sits. The a/c unit that was in car when I bought it was installed by the dealer and was kind of an under dash unit but used vents in dash frame for the cold air. I'm not reinstalling this unit but may go with an under dash unit like from Classic Air or similar. In the pic showing the back of gauges, you can see the original red wire not used now. I may need it if I install an aftermarket a/c unit. If I don't , I can remove it or use as a parallel circuit with a tie in to the bulkhead block bypass wire as Nacho suggested. Thanks for your assistance. The bypass wire coming through the bulkhead was dealer installed also from what I can tell and the grommet is the one you see in pic near steering column. Thanks. again.
Posted By: bboogieart

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 09:10 PM

Sorry a little off topic, but I couldn't resist.
Oh, resistance is somewhat in line with the topic.
Not really though.

Originally Posted By NachoRT74
Originally Posted By RapidRobert
Mattax good info. Good stuff Nacho, however! if the ball ain't oblong then it ain't a football





stirthepot grin whistling grin


haha haha haha haha haha haha

That's just toooo funny.

beer Cheers Nacho.
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 09:14 PM

if is like the LAST "as you found" diagram ( because he posted two "as you found" diagrams LOL ), you are set on the parallel path ready for higher amperage setup like I allways suggest. Just reinstall it back like it was.

How it does look the bulkhead ? some burnt spot ?

I think already have explained enough what to do with the stock red wire going through the bulkhead, but once again:

-No reason to remove it if bulkhead paths are in nice conditions. Is posible and even healthy keep it in use BUT splice both reds into one fuse link to Starter relay, the 14 gauge one

or

-Remove the blue fuse link. No reason to have it there being feeded and sourcing to nowhere on the other side, having unnecesarilly a hot spot hanging around without any use.


get a 80 or even better a 100 amps alt and your car will be happiest than never before
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 09:17 PM

Originally Posted By bboogieart
Originally Posted By NachoRT74
Originally Posted By RapidRobert
Mattax good info. Good stuff Nacho, however! if the ball ain't oblong then it ain't a football





stirthepot grin whistling grin


haha haha haha haha haha haha

That's just toooo funny.

beer Cheers Nacho.


just being honored to the thruth grin grin grin grin grin grin grin

cheers
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 09:20 PM

Nothing wrong with the sport/game, but with the name LOL... just like the Chagnum... nice car, wrong name grin grin grin grin grin
Posted By: bboogieart

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 09:33 PM

Can't wait to get together with friends for a Green Bay Packer egg arm game and toss this out there.
It'll go over big time. up
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/09/17 09:48 PM

I still dunno why you call Soccer to the Football. THE COMPLETE WORLD call it Football, but you guys LOL.

even in Spanish

Foot--- Pie
Ball--- Balón, pelota

so then... Balompié in spanish ( it gets M because an ortographic rule in spanish says before P and B letters any word must get M and never an N )

Althought tipically called Fútbol just as a "spanishing" of the Football english world
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/10/17 12:14 AM

Nacho, You have been extremely helpful to the OP with his severe electrical disaster (& much appreciated) so what we are going to do is give you a free (hail mary) pass (just this one time) on your other issue (& that is a football term).
Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: Alt bat to Starter bat bypass wiring - 09/10/17 05:02 AM

haha grin
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