1/2 turn hidraulic lifter preload

Hello all
I have been Re-doing the lifters preload and after researching the zero lash, i have found a couple of lifters which show resistance when i going to add the 1/2 turn preload.
On the others,the adjusting screw turns very loose when i,m adding the preload.

The cam and lifters are new(Lunati).
I,m using the up and down pushrod method for the zero lash and adjusting the intake when exhaust starts to open and exhaust when intake is fully open.

Is it usual that some lifters keep the pressure?The engine has not been running for a couple of weeks..

confirm that you are on base circle. You might need to open the lifters and clean & reassemble but wait for further input. if you do be careful not to bend the snap ring & always keep each lifters' innards together with the lifter body they came out of.

If your saying your using the up and down method make sure you know exactly where zero lash is and then don't worry about the amount of preload resistance I like to use 1/4 to 1/3 turn preload on 3/8x24 adjusters (24 threads per inch equal .0416 per one full thread so 1/4 turn equal .0104, half turn =.0206 and so on) Not all hydraulic lifters like or need the same preload Play with the amount preload on yours to find what you and your motor like

I would think that lifters of the same brand/type would be close on how they act, that one or two of em would not be way off from the others, that is why I am thinking that one might have an issue, poor tolerances (assy line mistakes happen) or a bit of debris. Just sayin (might be a non issue) but I would want to know for sure.

They are the intake 1# and #3 lifters.
In fact there is not preload because they are solids.What happens is the valve starts to open when i,m giving the 1/2 turn wich was giving me a false preload sensation.
I have checked it with a dial gauge .When i tight the 1/2 turn the valve opens 0.020 or so,then it backs to its close position very slowly.

If it is a hydraulic camshaft and you have adjustable rockers, it will need two turns to get plunger in center of travel. With a new lifter, no oil in it, from zero preload it takes a little over 4 turns to bottom out plunger, so center of travel is 2 turns. If you don't get the plunger near center of travel they sometimes have trouble filling with oil, you will have a noisy couple for the first bit of driving for the day. If it is a solid lifter cam you will be using a feeler gauge, .016 to .032 depending on camshaft, recommended lash is on the cam card.

If you are readjusting hyds. the ones with spring compressed eventually bleed off. The lifters with valves closed hold the oil and will feel solid. When you adjust them, the springs will push excess oil out. Give them a minute or two to bleed off before rotating engine to make sure you don,t have a piston hit a valve. You have seen oil bleeding out watching the valve close on your dial indicator. Unless you have short travel lifters you will need way more than a half turn to center the plunger in its travel, more like two turns.

Solid lifters DO NOT get preload, they get LASH.

The easiest way is put the appropriate feeler gauge between the valve stem and rocker tip and spin the pushrod as you tighten the adjuster screw. When the pushrod won't spin you're done. Tighten the nut.

If you put preload on a solid lifter the valves will never seat and the engine will run like CRAP - if it runs at all !!

Listen to Stanton on this one..... You need lash, not pre-load with solid lifters

What i did mean is that they are stuck.The plunger does not move.
I mention that it is an hydraulic cam in the title and the first post.
Regards

Is it possible that the ones that appear to be solid in nature are actually bottomed out?

Ok, I guess we're missing something because of the language difference.

The plunger WILL move but when adjusting preload do not be surprised if the valve spring moves first - lifters do not bleed down fast.

I have never heard of a hydraulic lifter being adjusted so the plunger is in the center of travel. Before doing this I suggest you read what the manufacturer's suggested preload is and go with that.

I still suggest spinning the pushrod to find zero as in my previous post. You spin the pushrod as you tighten the adjuster screw. When you can't spin the pushrod then you are at zero preload. Now turn the adjuster screw the recommended amount and tighten the nut. Done ... move on to the next.

If you've been playing with these for a while and you aren't sure where you are, back them all off and prime the oil system by hand. Remember to rotate the crank so both sides get pressurized. Now start adjusting using the above method and the manufacturer's recommended preload.

The following is from Lunati's Race Hydraulic Lifters:
The Hydraulic Race Lifters have a pre-load that can be set to .000"-.030" and are the best option for racers looking to go beyond a stock replacement lifter.

The problem is with today's hydraulic lifters there is no load with a bleed down lifter and you might not feel any resistance with the spin test. You need to watch the plunger for fist signs of movement to first find zero preload. I've seen guy do the spin test and run the lifter to fully collapsed and not know it.

I like to wiggle the pushrod up and down to get to zero clearance. On preoiling go to #8 on TDC & preoil then go forward 3/4 of a turn to #6 with the dampener slit on zero (TDC) & preoil again (Big block) then you can back up to 15 BTDC to set the dist. on a SB go to 90 BTDC #1 compression (might be partial slits on dampener every quarter turn for this) & preoil then go to 20 ATDC #6 compression (use the tab as a ruler) & preoil again then back up the dampener to 15 BTDC & set dist magnet dead even with the tooth with the rotor under #6 plug wire.

1) back off all adjusters
2) prelube engine by hand - rotate as mentioned
3) zero lash using up-down method
4) add 1/4 turn and tighten nut
5) once you have adjusted them all, look at the length of the adjusters - they should all be very close in length. If not - you have a problem !!

If you can prelube the motor that's fine, you should still be able to feel "zero" with your up/down method - just use a gentle touch.

It is very common to adjust lifters without removing the intake and valley tray.

Also, and this may sound dumb BUT make sure the pushrod is in the lifter.

What brand are the rockers?

On adjustable hyd lifters, the way I was taught was to rotate the engine and do one cylinder at a time.
I believe the proper sequence is to adjust the intake valve when the exhaust starts closing, and the exhaust when the intake begins to open.
Each lifter may feel tighter or looser because of previous leak down from being compressed.
What you are looking for is when the pushrod first meets resistance while tightening the adjuster, then it a half to 3/4 turn past that..
I keep turning the pushrod while making the adjustment to be certain when contact is first made.

Thanks for all the replies

The rockers and the shafts are from Hughes engines.

I primed the engine prior to installing it in the car.
I even bought the Mopar shaft that goes in the place of the distributor gear.I used it with the drill in reverse and turning the crank.

Yesterday i removed the rocker shaft to watch athrough the pushrod holes but is not
easy to see anything on that way.

Then should to prime the engine with all the rockers adjusters loosen all the way off?

Thanks again

The Lunati cam sheet says adjust intake when exahust just starts to open and adjust exhaust when intake is fully open.
For the zero lash i,m using the up and down method because i don,t have the touch of a trained engine builder and twisting the pushrod may result into a excesive lifter preload.

Sure. Rotate the crank as you prime (see RapidRobert post: On preoiling go to #8 on TDC & preoil then go forward 3/4 of a turn to #6 with the dampener slit on zero (TDC) & preoil again (Big block) . Also keep in mind that not all lifter oil holes will be exposed to the oil galley each rotation as there will be some at max lift. Therefore, you want to rotate the engine enough times to fill all lifters. I would rotate the crank 8 revolutions. This may be the reason you had some hard and some soft lifters - not all were filled.

There are some comments here about lifter "bleed down". My opinion: once the system is primed the lifters should NOT bleed down BECAUSE there is no pressure on them until you adjust your preload. The only thing to cause a lifter to bleed down is the valve spring pressure.

Is this a big block or small block ??

install lifters dry,adjust valves,then pre-lube engine.If your valves are
close to the piston,don't try to adjust with oil in the lifter.I don't know how primeing lifters with oil before adjustment became the standard,but it is wrong!I think it is a chevy thing.

It is a big block,a 440.

I had too much play between a couple of rockers so i removed the saft to put more shims.
That is why i had to redoing the preload and it,s when i noticed that two of the lifters were "solids"

There was not too much interference risk in this engine if i recall correctly.
The pushrods are ok.i will have to check if have bent a valve... Just in case..

Never install any engine component that will rotate or spin dry, NEVER
I oil the sides of any lifter type and use cam lube on the bottoms only of flat tappet solids and hydraulic with the oil the motor will be broke in with, none(cam lube) on the sides at all
OP, some lifters won't bleed down as easily as others
Worst yet is they all don't pump up the same as easily as others when priming them
The more you do engine work the more you learn

Hughes Engines has a great & handy chart you can follow...basically cuts down the number of rotations to half, here is the link to that article (PDF document) => http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/productInstructions/ValveAdjust.pdf

The only good way to get oil to the top of the motor is to have two people on the job, one drives the oil pump with the drill motor and the other spins the engine by hand.
Go with the Lunati procedure for setting preload, my memory is not as good as the book.

I have been reading the entire post again and i,m noticing tha maybe there is an undermistaken.
My fault for sure . I think that have not been able to express the case correctly.

I have not mentioned that the engine has been running with this cam and lifters previously.
I rebuild the engine on a stand,adjusted the preload,prelubed it and installed on car.
Then i did the cam break in.

I started to do the valve adjustment again because i removed the rocker shafts to correct the clearance between rockers because i did not a good job on this while engine was in the stand.That is when i found the issue with the two lifters.


I did want to clarify this because you are suggesting me to prelube the engine and maybe i confused you and you are thinking that i still haven,t started the engine.

Right now i don,t know if it is usual to prelube lifters wich has been alreay working on a running engine or if you need to do this every time you loss the preload,like this case that i have removed the shafts after running the engine.
I,m a little confused about this.

I apologize for the inconveniences
Thanks

My bad. I meant to say lube the outside of the lifters,but don't fill them up before adjusting them.Sorry if I led somebody wrong.


Coke,if you have some lifters that won't bleed down even when you put pressure on them and the valves are opening when you try to adjust,you might have to pull the lifters and take them apart to drain oil out.Make sure they are clean.

It makes absolutely no sense to me to adjust preload on an empty lifter. Adjusting a fully filled lifter will ensure you can feel it at "zero" and then add your preload.

This is why I suggest priming the motor - to ensure all 16 lifters are full.

FWIW, you can't tell me that everyone who does a periodic adjustment removes and drains their lifters before adjusting them !!

Just one example,

If i remove the valve caps on an engine wich has been running,say the day before,
How should be the lifters wich are in the cam base circles(closed valve)?
Should i be able to move the rocker back and forth?
If i grab the pushrod between my fingers, should i be able to press the plunger down and feel it spongy?

Thanks

If the thing's sat overnight, you should be able to spin pushrod with your fingers, provided the cam is on base circle.

I do my preload checking setting/adjusting before I preoil as I am just getting the up & down play of the pushrod to zero with the lifter spring pushing the cup up against the clip then adding in however much preload I am after by extending the pushrod length/turning the adj rocker screw. this is for preliminary setup and after running. if it is better to do it while pumped up then I am willing to change to that.

Absolutely not. The lifter should never bleed more than the amount of pressure placed on it.

i.e. all pressurized lifters sitting in the motor with no pressure on them (no pushrods installed) should not bleed down AT ALL. Why? Because there is nothing to push the oil out.

Keep this in mind ... depending on RPM you have anywhere from 20 to maybe 70 pounds of oil pressure to pressurize the lifter. You have more than 300 pounds of spring pressure trying to force the oil out of the lifter. Therefore the lifter has to be designed NOT to bleed off that oil easily otherwise you'd never reach the potential of the cam.

Then the issue is with the other 14 lifters!
The two wich are "hard" are the only ones wich are doing what is suppoused that they should to do.

I really belived that lifters turn soft once the engine is not running for a time..

Maybe the two hard ones were on the base circle - all others were in some degree of lift !!

I'd still take those two apart & clean em/reinstall & see if that takes care of it. it'd be nice as no breakin will be needed which would be if you get (2) new lifters.

Means taking the intake off. If you're that concerned I'd put those two at max lift overnight and check the next day to see if they bleed down.

Those are the only two that are good. The other 14 are junk, IMO. Everyone has just gotten so use to it... it is just the new norm.

I was thinking on that idea too
.
I don,t want to think that a set of lifters wich has been running less than an hour in total are already junk.

We are going to start for the easiest thing, wich is preoling to see if they get pressure and set the valve adjustment again.
If not i will remove the intake to see what is happening here.

How much i should to loose the rockers adjusters? Just enough to evit tha the pushrod escapes from the adjuster ball ?

If loose them all the way off the cups are going to damage the rockers while i,m turning the crankshaft.

take the pushrods out

Don't worry about getting them perfect by priming them when setting them, use the up and down method cold to determine absolute( + or minus .002 ) zero lash and then add 1/4 to 1/3 turn preload
Mopar had some issues with all their hi Po cam kit hydraulic lifters clattering intermittingly for several years, my wife old 1973 318 motor with the Mopar 1968 340 automatic replacement cam would have one or two lifters collapse when sitting overnight sometimes and then pump up and be good for several more days and then do it again until it had around 5000 miles on that motor

I've pulled a whole set of lifters out without pulling the intake, a good magnet makes it possible, though not real easy. If you drop one, you can still retrieve it.

Joe

What Joe said & there is a retrieval tool for this which likely has hooks that will catch the snap ring for a secure grip. if no varnish on the sides which I dont think is the case here it oughta be trouble free. If new lifters are going back in the hard part is gonna be getting some breakin lube on the bottoms & not close to the edges where it could get on the sides & hinder rotation & hit the hole dead on with the new ones.

Try two turns and that will stop that stuff.

1/4 to 1/2 turn is for ball stud type rockers, such as sb cheapys and dorfs, and those done correctly, are a full turn. Hyd lifters are designed to run in the center of travel. Short travel race hyd. lifters as well. Those have way less plunger travel, about 1/2 of a normal lifter, therefore would not take two turns, only one or maybe less, and on ball stud rockers a half turn.

I just finished a bone stock v10 with non adjustable hyd. roller lifters. When I installed the rockers, while at TDC for each cyl., which is OK for hyd. cams, the plunger was down right at .100" from the retaining clip. Stock, non adjustable rockers, pushrods, and new stock lifters.

When the plunger is in the center of travel the lifter fills properly and holds the oil better. Any of the lifters with open valve, while engine not running, will eventually push the oil out, especially HP engines with stouter valve springs. My 2016 scat pack challenger lifters tap for a couple seconds, and then shut up right away after car sits for a few weeks. This is my 6th 09 and newer challenger and they have all done this.

Please read this. http://www.diamondbackengines.com/index.php/wpm/11-setvalve

This is for setting valve lash on solid lifter motors, both flat tappet and solid roller lifters.
It does not address or show how to adjust hydraulic lifter preload

Me thinks you have never tested hydraulic lifter preload methods at the track or on a engine dyno, your method is NOT the best way for Hi Performance motors that the owner wants to rev above 5000 RPM regularly
Maybe you need to quit buying these new cars that have lifter problems
I never had any lifter problems ticking or collapsing before starting to buy the old DC Connection Mopar Purple Shaft cam kits the better brand lifters don't act up from day one
BTW, I am a Mopar guy, have been from 1964 on I have owned and driven both GM and Ford but not as many and kept, driven ,hop up and raced as Mopars
I have found at the track and on a engine dyno with a non stock cam and adjustable rocker arms or adjustable pushrods ( for use on the early Chrysler Firepower hemi motors ) that 1/4 to 1/2 turn preload (depending on iron or aluminum heads) works the best for power, RPM and manifold vacuum

What we've been telling the OP all along. Don't know where these guys come up with the "half down" preload crap. There are two main reasons for hydraulic lifters. One is to address a noise issue which car owners would have a tendency to continually want a dealer to fix. The second is to compensate for manufacturing tolerance in the valvetrain. With that in mind, there only needs to be enough preload to ensure there's no clatter - from 0 to about .025.

It would sure be interesting to see what the preloads were in a motor that came off the factory floor.

That would be alot.(.100")or more Plunger depth on quite a few chevs AND mopars I've seen.

"the better brand lifters"




"It would sure be interesting to see what the preloads were in a motor that came off the factory floor."


There are only two manufacturers of lifters, one just reopened so for a while there was only one. So I would like to know who these better brand lifters are! Comp , Crane, Lunati, all get there lifters from one of the two.

Engines from the factory come with lifters preloaded to near 1/2 travel. I set mine in center and shift at 6500+ all the time.

If you want yours set at the top you might as well just get solids. The 1/4 turn was a BS trick of the month from chevy craft or hot rod your chevy magazines years ago.

I use to set mine to the trick of the month way and got tired of clattering lifters until the engine got fully warmed up, so I started putting them in the center and problems went away and the engines run just as good or maybe better.

Cab, It also has hydraulic lifter adjustment, not just solid.

Hydraulic Lifter Adjustment:

Hydraulics require preload not lash so the method is slightly different. Adjusting hydraulic lifters can be done basically the same and in many cases both rockers can be adjusted at the same time. Just make sure to stop about 20 degrees or so after the intake for that cylinder closes so as not to end up with the exhaust starting to open.

Once the rocker(s) in question are ready to adjust, back them off until they are loose enough to rattle. Take the pushrod you are adjusting between your thumb and forefinger and spin lightly while slowly tightening the adjuster. (Remember, don’t hold it too tight or apply up or down pressure)

As SOON as you feel a slight drag, you are at zero lash – you must hold the pushrod lightly to feel this. Once you have zero lash, you must turn the adjuster enough to preload the lifter properly. The old “turn it ½ turn” method may or may not be correct.

Most performance lifters have a specified preload which you can get from the manufacturer if you don’t know. Many are less than ½ turn. Your adjusters are generally fine thread fasteners, and move a certain part of an inch per revolution. Below is a list of standard sizes and how far they move per turn- Find the correct figure for your adjuster size and divide it by your specified preload.

Example:

Your lifter preload is spec’d at .008 -.012 and you have 3/8” adjusters. Divide .0419 by.008=5.24. Divide .0419 by.012= 3.49 Put a 1 over that or 1/5.24 - 1/3.49 or about 1/5th to 1/3rd turn is your specified preload.

Adjuster Size Travel /Turn

5/16 -24 .0419

3/8 -24 .0419

7/16 -20 .0500

It is ok to use the specified figure for cold fire up, but expect to readjust hot to get it perfect. Also keep in mind that new equipment will wear in and you will probably need to readjust a couple times in the first few hours of use before they “take a set”.

Be Careful, you don’t want them too loose, because you run the risk of pounding the retainer ring out of the lifter body or at the least having noisy lifters. Too tight and your valves may not fully close and will surely float at an early rpm. Valve Float can cause a car to lay over or even start to backfire at a relatively low rpm. It may run great up to 4000 rpm, then its like someone puts on the breaks and it falls on its nose.

I know those tools
Don,t seem to be very useful here..

I figured that. It seems people were assuming stock iron heads !

Hello all
Sorry for the delay
I finally removed the pushrods and installed the shafts again for prelubing the engine.
I have seen good oil flow coming from the rocker,s botton oil holes.No oil flow from the upper holes.



What i have to do now?
Turn the engine 8 turns while i make the oil pump to work using the drill?
Thanks

Two person job, one on the drill to spin the pump and another cranking the engine over by hand.

to preoil: for a BB, turn crank to TDC #6 compression & preoil one bank then back up the dampener 3/4 of a turn (#8 TDC) & preoil the other bank (cut a strip of paper 17.082" or go by the rotor). for a SB, turn crank 90 deg (1/4 turn) BTDC #1 compression (might be partial slits on dampener) or a strip of paper 5.694" & preoil pass bank then turn dampener to 20 ATDC #6 compression (use the timing cover marks to measure the extra 5 degrees) & preoil the drivers bank. EDIT Dave Hughes wants me to use .100" preload on my circle track hyd cam. I was surprised that he wants that much but he has forgotten more info than I know.

I'm curious why oil isn't shooting out the top holes though.

Probably because the rocker arm is not rotated so the oil hole on the shaft is aligned with the passage in the rocker arm when the cam passage is align in the block to provide oil pressure
I groove all my roller cams # 4 cam journal so they will oil the rocker shafts full time, they will shoot oil out the rocker arms that way I am using around a .040 oil restictor in that oil passage now, the restrictor size depends on the type of rocker arm, extruded or bushed get a .080 restrictors, true roller rocker get the smaller sizes

He said he has oil coming out around the rockers but not out the top holes. Aren't most rockers grooved internally so oil can flow to those squirt holes? I know my old Isky's were. There are no holes to align with - the holes in the shafts point down.

this may not apply here but I brazed the top holes shut as they shoot oil up to no avail & I added correctly clocked holes in the shaft/rocker & capped the big outer hole on the pushrod side of the rocker where they drilled in to drill the inner hole to lube the threads to dribble down to the cup. Shaft/rocker clocked/drilled when on base circle so there will be some dwell time for the oil to squirt out. OE side holes in shaft (that are clocked wrong) soldered shut/bottom ones left open. SB iron adjustables

Those shoot oil to the top of the valve cover to rain down and cool the valve springs



Again, this shoots oil at the valve cover to splash back and lube the cups.



Doesn't lube the threads or dribble down. Once you tighten the nut, nothing's going down those threads!

Don't like the looks of those shafts !!!

(1) I'm doubtful but maybe enough for a DD but definitely not for racing (2) I cant see it happening that way (3) I'm thinking there was a groove in the rocker alongside the threads for oil to dribble down (I will check tomorrow). Yes the shafts in the pic are worn some, not sure if I used those or just pulled em out to see what I had when I was doing the valvetrain setup/mods. EDIT yes oil can dribble down onto the pushrod cup. I knew it did otherwise there would be no need to drill the rocker but I wanted to see how & the threaded hole in the rocker is a bit eggshaped/bellmouthed.