Anyone run Ford TFI coil+HEI module with mopar distributor?

After running orange and chrome boxes with various coils for decades, I decided to try this weird Ford TFI coil+HEI module+MP distributor setup on my mule 440 in the C body (474 purple shaft, performer, 3310, hp manifolds).

The mule 440 is a re-ring, cheap std bore thing...I haven't driven it 50 miles on the new rings... I usually use old spark plugs for break in....true to form, The spark plugs in it are nasty old ones from circa 1999.

Prior ignition was a chrome box with a blaster 2, which I know is not an optimum combo, but long lived for sure. I've put alot of miles on it with other engines, and even in one other car (my beloved 78 fury sport suburban, may she RIP).

I kind of sloppily threw it together last night, and fired it up this morning.

First impressions:
It seems to work surprisingly great...fires up quicker than the other ignition, and throttle response seems better. It almost acts torquier if that is even a word.

I'm going to test drive it tonight and if I like it, new plugs with a slightly wider gap, and prettier looking wiring instead of the rats nest of tie wraps I've got currently.

Just wondered if anyone else here has given it a shot, what your impressions are, etc etc........

I am glad you are trying out some new ignition systems rather than just sticking with the old Mopar transistor systems....I have used them, too both the Orange and Chrome boxes with OK results, but I know there are better options.

I used a Mallory dual point in my 440 race car...30+ years ago. I used a CD system 45 years ago in my '71 Valiant Scamp with the /6 and had good results and I used a Mallory CD system in my '87 Ram 318 and it is still running great. My newest race toy is using the GM HEI system mounted to the bottom of the OEM 440 distributor and I am using a Pertronix coil that I got from Summit. Most of my racing friends are using MSD stuff and I have too, but I like to experiment and I am cheap.

I like the MSD in my B body, and will be working on that more soon.

The MSD is really what started this.

To my way of thinking, the ballast is a crutch to prevent the oil filled canister coil and the ecu from overheating, because the components can't take 13+ volts....If we use more robust components, we get around that issue.

Even the chrysler igniton always seems to run better with the ballast resistor bypassed....temporarily... Might not be noticeable in terms of dragstrip performance, but very noticeable in starting/normal driving.

I think Dog recommended a coil (E coil?) to me from a 1990 furd Taurus, said it was a real good one & is dirt cheap in the yards. I would use it with an HEI module/std 70's Mopar electronic dist.

I put one on my 67 Coronet (using the MP distributor) I had and it was an improvement over the orange box, especially hot starts. I used a coil off of a mid 90's 4.3 Astro van (nice flat mount). Use junkyard coils and HEI modules if you can, the parts store stuff is junk and doesn't last. I think DUI makes a good HEI module if you want to buy a new one, but for coils, I'd stick to the junkyards

'91 Ford F150 302 V8 coil has worked great on last 3 builds using MSD 6 boxes; fires off immediately, runs cleanly, and you can mount it in any orientation you need. I also use the matching pigtail. Autozone sells both. Bypassed ballast resistor on all 3 cars as MSD recommends, using a jumper wire. Distributors were either MP (re-curved) or FBO with their advance plate, which I now prefer.

The coil I'm using is a 9 dollar special, the cheapest one rockauto sells for a '90 F150 with a 351. For the module I paid 20 instead of 8, and got a standard motor products one. I haven't got the coil connector yet, but if this continues, that's next. I just have spade terminals crammed on there.

Can't believe how much quicker it starts.

Changed spark plugs last night but haven't fired it again yet. From the short drive I took yesterday it seems to want something different for idle mixture now. Will mess with it and see.

Zippy is that an E coil?

Yep it is. A big heavy epoxy impregnated black plastic thing.

thank you!

recurving is worth the time & the FBO $22 plate is a part of that & the best deal going by far (to limit your total).

Yup, Robert. In my case the good re-curving guy is a 3-hour round trip, twice. The FBO plate is brilliant.
The guy who put me onto the F150 coil was TechWest, when they rebuilt an MSD6 for me. Highly recommended outfit, very reasonable.

You can recurve it yourself & do a much better job than he (or anyone else) can if they are just setting the curve to a set curve for your eng specs (they can get close but not near spot on). set your initial with the "vac gauge method" then set the total to a total for your eng with the plate (initial+slots) SB is 35, then toss the heavy spring & sub in a mr gasket/transdapt/mopar light spring in its place for a start & mix/match so you are just under the pinging point @ WOT up thru the gears on your hottest/driest day then plug in the can to ported & adj it with a 3/32 allen wrench also staying just under the pinging point in everyday driving conditions under varying load/RPM conditions. check rotor phasing/reduce rotor clearance to .015"/reduce lower shaft axial play to .005. EDIT I ordered that coil (CFD478) last night, not sure how much is there for $16.xx to my door but I will see & if it worked for you it will work for me.

I used a GM coil and module from an early 90's truck. I gutted an old Mopar ECU and put the GM module inside it and kept the wiring to it. It looks all stock except for the coil. I widened the gap on the plugs to .045. It starts WAAY easier after its sat for months..

Was able to lean the idle mixture a bit.

It's no MSD, but noticeably better.

Hers what the spark looks like:
https://youtu.be/3iYv4H26SRs

that does look healthy, I have an OE black '75 chebby HEI module that I will use with the std 70's electronic dist

Speaking of that the Jacobs ign bible (you'd think they would know their stuff) says a smaller (than the .035 std) can give more power (& mileage iirc) but I would surely think a larger gap producing a larger spark kernel would light it off easier/let it reach full combustion sooner, (requiring less timing). it is a good manual but is about 80% on points as opposed to electronic igns.

how is this hei module wired into a stock mopar electronic dist wiring?

the (B) & (C) terminals on one end, the (B) goes to switched 12V. the (C) goes to coil neg primary. The (w) & (G) on the other end go to dist pickup, I forget which polarity. At the ballast, tie the blue and brown (switched 12V) together & run it also to the coil positive primary terminal. Module quality varies greatly, an OE one is good & MAYBE an aftermarket one (no exp there).

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/hei-in-mopar-ecu-casing.252705/

Here is where i learned how to do it. I used the newer 7 pin module on mine..

You have to gang together "start" and "run" ( Ignition 1 and 2), but other than that it's just like this.

Here's the coil:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261647237128?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

It's a steal at $10.31 shipping included.

Ford products starting in '82 through 97, something like that. That coil connector is pretty standard across the HP world.

I remember when you couldn't get an E-core coil aftermarket, you had to find a Vega or something like that as the HEI coils were usually in the distributor cap, but not on that particular car.

There must be several HEI modules that'll work. Anyone care to explain a "low saturation" module? See ad below:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331640434281?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

r.

coil connector is standard motor products S539 or HP4370.

(I still have to order it...still running around with butch wiring...it runs great)

Probably marketing gobbledygook but may refer to controlling the dwell so the coil doesn’t oversaturate, which I think all HEI modules do anyway.

One of the nice features of the Ford coil is that most of the aftermarket e-core coils that come in those finned aluminum housings use the same hole pattern so it’s an easy swap if you want to upgrade the coil later.

There she be, all $16.xx worth from RockAuto, it might be lipstick on a pig but I'm gonna find out. On my stock 85 318 ramcharger I will sub it in/delete the ballast then sub in the HEI module (one change/step at a time). & I should try it first with the ballast.

Cool, I think you'll like it Robert. Will be interesting to see what you think.

Got it in yesterday (that coil/OE 75 black chebby HEI module/bypassed ballast) & went for a quick spin & no noticeable difference. It did appear a slight bit smoother running but that was likely my expectations (it was hot & the eng compartment is too high for easy access & I wanted something good out of my efforts!). I hope it don't die & strand me & I will update if I notice any difference in driving in this upcoming week or so.

You guys ever see this mounting bracket for the GM module?






Pretty slick. Never ran it though.


http://www.designed2drive.com/

I've been running this setup on my slant 6 for the past few years, along with a later, pointless distributor. It works great, starts up much quicker and easier than it used to, and seems to run more smoothly.

Roger

That's what I used on my 440 when I converted it to HEI. Fit really nice

For guys using the TFI or GM coil, which has a solid male end, and still using the Mopar distributor.

For the coil wire, do you just use a regular spark plug wire (not a regular Mopar coil wire which has 2 male ends that go into female sockets).. with the "spark plug" end on the coil and the other end on the distributor?

Basically, yep.

I took a spare wire, used the existing distributor socket terminal in the same place, cut it to length since it was way too long, and for the TFI coil I crimped on an hei terminal like this one: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850440

Although I am still running this on my C body as a solid low buck ignition, lately I have focused on the coil by itself....More research has shown the TFI coil to be approved by MSD for 6 and 7 series ignitions. While I have fancier aftermarket coils laying around, I think the TFI should be tested further.

Is anyone interested in a TFI coil bracket for
B/RB/gen 2 HEMI applications?

Thanks Zippy.

I am actually going to use the TFI coil with a MSD street fire. If that eventually fails, I'll do the HEI thing. When I was looking into the HEI option before buying the MSD street fire, I got the impression that there's a lot of junk HEI modules out there at parts stores. Didn't make me feel like it would be a reliable upgrade, though it's probably just perception. There are also people that say MSD is junk, but I've had good luck with them.

I have also read the people at Tech West racing, who modify MSD boxes, that they specifically recommend the Autozone Duralast C839 for MSD 6al (and I think other MSD models too, just not the 7 series).
http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=36302&page=2

The thread seems weird, like it's missing messages, but there's some stuff there.

I had 4 Sears white replacement HEI modules that were junk right off the bat (missing shortly after startup) & that was 35 yrs ago. Yes get an OE black one at a yard ('75 up) or I'm sure some of the aftermarket ones are good. Dont forget the heat sink paste.

Yep that's the one...it crosses over to spectra c502, std motor products fd478 and others.

Maybe, what's it look like?

Robert

Me too, Zippy

Joe

I'm about to make a prototype, will post up when done.

It will mount on top of the valley pan hold down, and the coil terminal will point upright.

Wasn't Andy going to make brackets for these?

Ford makes one that mounts to the front of the driver head or some PS bracket,
it's well made, Al mtg. bracket and stand-offs, but will need to be mtd. to a fenderwell due to the geometry.

Joe

No intent (I checked).

I'm running a MSD TFI-coil with a 4-pin HEI module on my engine teststand.
Used it with a Mopar distributor without issues.

I played with this idea a bit and am still not satisfied with the appearance of it.

It'll never sell if it is not pretty looking.
It is definitely not pretty when mounted in the way I wanted to do it.
And I can't afford to do a bunch of them if they aren't somewhat commercially viable.

Plan C or D to be attempted later, maybe more of a generic thing, but can't guarantee anything at this point.

Is the coil you were using the same as the Holley Hyperspark?

https://www.holley.com/products/fue...er_efi/hyperspark_ignition/parts/556-152

It doesn't have the extruded aluminum sides.
https://goo.gl/images/o9coKV

Probably the same coil but Holley added an extruded bracket. The Holley coil looks nicer than the Ford version.

Yeah, it's a ubiquitous coil design
.
It had better have a better appearance, considering the 500% cost difference!

For some all that matters is the shiny.

it's been said : "chrome don't getcha' home" ........

The Holley coil is only $38 so that doesn't seem expensive to me. The MSD coil that I was using on my race engine was more than $200.

I have a $200+ msd coil on the bench, I haven't used it yet since it's the size of a brick...I am thinking an A/B test with a
$9 OEM replacement TFI Coil, both driven by an msd box could be interesting. I will have nowhere to mount
the MSD coil until I get my AR engineering motor plate bolted in so it will have to wait.

It would be interesting to me, anyway.
Many wouldn't care...but I think it's noteworthy MSD approves the TFI coil for 6 and 7 series.

I mean, there's almost always somebody, or some-thing available to do a job cheaper. Cheaper isn't super-important to me, anymore.
Those discussions usually turn into "do you want this cheaper, or do you need it to be better?"

I do know it makes a nice low buck ignition with the hei module, but that the coil is kind of awkward.

I'm really not too sure where this is heading, but I'll post up the shots of the cardboard template that I texted you awhile back,
and will see if anyone thinks this is a bad idea to pursue.

I know this is an old thread but i have a question on the coil..I have also done this GM module upgrade and currently using the matching square GM coil, which doesnt look right on a mopar intake..lol.. Does anyone know of a round coil that looks like the old original mopar coils, but can be used with the GM HEI module and not need the ballsat and all? in other words, a coil that acts like the GM HEI coil but looks like the old mopar style coils?

I've ran various setups and recall to have used a regular canister coil with a 4-pin HEI module for awhile.
No ballast and 12v powered.
I think I went with a modern coil when I noticed they don't seem to get warm like the canister coils do.

I'm running a MegaSquirt ECU with 7-pin HEI module with a MSD e-core coil now.
Dwell is controlled digitally through a rpm/load-table between 2.5 and 3.2 milliseconds.

I noticed that after doing this GM HEI upgrade that i was pinging a LOT under WOT load. Come to find out, this GM module is adding advance! I have 4 of these module and every dang one of them adds about 10 degrees of advance in the higher RPM's! SO, how are you guys using these without problems from that? This is the later 7 or 8 pin module out of an early 1990's GM truck.

I would think that the ECU was pulling (delaying) timing (common with some orange boxes) & that the HEI has no delay. Solution, restore your curve to where it was with the ECU.

i always thought the GM HEI conversion used the 4 pin [70's style] module, usually mounted under the distributor housing ?

^^^ yes that is the one I've always used. Maybe the later one alters things but iirc someone had used it.

Well, after researching the internet literally ALL day, i have figured this out and i should have already known the answer since my boat with 350 GM engine uses this same setup. These 8 pin modules have 10 degrees advance built into them! If you are using this module on a carbureted engine, you have to put the spark timing into bypass mode to set the initial timing so it WONT try to advance the timing, and that requires jumping to pins together and hooking another pin to 12 volts. To verify this, i tried it on my car and sure enough, that stopped the advancing problem! The catch is, you cant leave it plugged up into bypass mode because it is setup to where you have to start the engine, then shut it off, connect the bypass wire, then start it up again to set the timing. once you turn off the ignition, it wont start up again until you have removed the bypass jumper and started the engine without it, then you can hook it up again. You could use it on a switched 12 volts but im not going to bother, i will just get a 4 pin module and be done with it. I happen to have the 4 pin plug that is not used on the 8 pin module when using these with our old cars so i made the ESC bypass with it to verify what i read (and already knew and forgot) and sure enough! Guys running the 8 pin: i bet if you watch it with a timing light, you are getting extra 10 degrees of advance after around 3-3500 rpms. It drops back out at WOT but makes mine ping. Hope this helps!
https://forums.iboats.com/filedata/fetch?id=6932127

we appreciate all this hard work! I will for sure stick to the 4 terminal HEI's

Robert, curious, can you still open the plug gap to .045 with the 4 terminal module like you can with the 8 terminal module? Im assuming both module put out the same..?

The 4 pin module is really the one to use with this basic swap, where you're carbureted and are controlling advance with a mopar distributor.

I have not researched this to death and don't feel I know all the ins and outs of it, but I believe the 7 pin or 8 pin module is still useful...
I believe it is the one you want to use with EFI/megasquirt with the computer providing spark control.

Got the 4 pin installed today and its all good now. no more advance getting thrown in on top of whats supposed to be there. Now to buy a spare 4 pin to carry with me. I had 4 of the 8 pins for back ups..Wish i could trade a couple for some 4 pins.

If you like to mount the module off the distributor like I do to get it away from some heat. Try this bracket, AC Delco #10474610. Just drill 2 new holes and it works great and is under $20.

I like that!

You can mount the module on the back of the heat sink and not have to drill any extra holes.
Used long through-screws to get the necessary clearance for mounting to fender housing.

Joe

PS, don't forget the paste for heat transfer

That heat sink is a nice addition, thank you!

I'm thinking a couple stand offs for mounting would help the heat situation even more.

would it be better to have it mounted flush with some heat sink paste to wick away heat produced in the module (like it is in the HEI dist) or to space it up to isolate it from heat in this metal mounting bracket itself?

after seeing that finned mounting bracket [] i would use the paste on the bracket, then space it away from the surface 1/4-3/8" with a couple of bushings from the hardware store.
just my opinion. it couldn't hurt, and would be easy to do.